J-9 and Co.

[Gollevainen]

At least in my obinion those military equipments that never saw actual service altough being very promising desings and perhaps even revolutionar tends to be one of the most interesting things. XB-70, TRS.1, Mirage 4000 and so on...adding it to my weird enthusiaism of inventing these long-term "what-if" scenarious, sometimes you get quite interesting mixes....China shares also one of those...exspecially the J-9 fighter.


Anyway , I once came agross this story in "Encyclopedia of World Military Aircraft" (Aerospace Publishing, 1994) about CATIC J-9. It was the spark that eventually led me here...giving hard time to various people in chinese military forum...And the plane still remains more of a mystery for me. While surfing on other chinese related forums i've managed to find out bit more but still many important fact concerning the project remains "out there".

So what i'm trying to say here is that why not using this forum as it should be and let's see if we can come up something covering the J-9 project as well as it is possiple with our somewhat limited resources. So if you have anything additional info on J-9 project, post it here.

I first toughted of posting this to the Vip-forum, but our vip members (no offence in anyway) seems to be more conserned about land warfare and naval matters than aviation issues.

For starter, heres the text from the book i mentioned above:

The CATIC J-9, seen only in model form, and propaply unbuilt, is an advanced tactical fighter aircraft apparently loosely based on Mikoyan MiG-23 technology. MiG-23s were reportedly aquired from Egypt for evaluation in return for Chengdu F-7s abd MiG-21/F-7 spare parts and support. The J-9 project is propaply waiting for for foreing orders or funding prior to prototype construction. Two slightly different J-9 cobfigurations have been observed, each whit a revisited wing and whit quite different intakes. The J-9 seems to combine MiG-23 tpy fuselage with a new low-set fixed delta wing and with canard foreplanes on the engine intakes. This gives the aircraft a configuration reminicnt of the Saab 37 Viggen. Compared to standart MiG-23, the J-9 has a slightly recontuored fin, with a square to, reduced leading-edge sweep and an abbreviated dorsal fin fillet. The folding ventral wing is unchanged. One configuration (possiple the first) had a simple delta wing and retained MiG-23 style intakes with variable intake ramps, while the seccond introduced leading-edge root extensions of greater sweep and intakes with variable shock-cone centrebodies. Both configurations appeared to retain the MiG-23's ventral cannon pod, and carried outboard underwing fule tanks and inboard PL-10 air-to-air missiles. Becouse the aircraft is as yet unbuild, it probaply has not been assigned to a particular factory (eg. Harbin, Xian or Chendu) and is thus listed under the broad CATIC (China National Aero-technology Import and Export Corporation).

In the book, there where also nice linedrawing of the latter configuration.

Few things that concerns me most are these:

1. The projected turbofan engine WS-6 (in my knowlidge, never entered serial production) is quite similar in size and performance to MiG-23s R-29/35 turbojets and Viggens JT-8 turbofan engines. Could it been pararel-project whit the J-9? I've also heard rumours that R-29 engine was to be reverse-engineered in china for the J-9. As i'm not very knowing of aerodynamics, so have anyone any clue wich engine would been more "ideal" for the plane. Also whit the ideal engine, whats the overall aerodynamic capapilityes of the whole desing (Tailess delta whit canards, but NO FBW-system)?

here's basic data of Ws-6 and R-29:

WS-6
Country: China
Manufacturer: LM
Engine mode:l WS6
Take-off rating (dry): 71.1 kN (15,991 lb) D
Take-off rating (wet): 122.1 kN (27,445 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 2,100 kg (4,630 lb)
Airflow: 155 kg (342 lb)/s
Arrangement: 3F, 11A, a/b
BPR: 1
Diameter: 1,370 mm (53.94 in)
Length: 4,654 mm (183.2 in)
Classification: Jet Engine

R-29-300
Jet Engine ID: 163
Country: Russia
Manufacturer: Soyuz
Engine model: R-29-300
Take-off rating: (dry) 78.5 kN (17,635 lb) D
Take-off rating: (wet) 122.3 kN (27,500 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 1,880 kg (4,145 lb)
Airflow: 110 kg (243 lb)/s
Arrangement: 5A, 6A, a/b
BPR: 0
Diameter: 912 mm (35.9 in)
Length: 4,960 mm (195.0 in)
Classification: Jet Engine
(engine data form venik's aviation page)

2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project? Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes? Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance? Or is it more like that the MiG-23 features from the same supposed egybtian MiGs finded their way to J-8II project after the J-9 was cancelled?

3. When the J-9 project was started and when officically cancelled? Some sort of timeline, and how well it was pararel to J-8II? Was J-9 project "live" during the flirtations whit the west just prior to the 1989 incidence? Could there have been any proposal of western participation on this project?

Well there are many "could there" and "would there"s but feel free to give any toughts what comes to mind (no offtopic BS) Also why do we have to focus on J-9 solely? If you have anything about other cancelled chinese aviation projects, this topic can cover them also. I try to give update from my own research concerning the matter and perhaps introduce some other chinese fighter project lime the DF series or the orginal J-10 project...

[vincelee]

J-9 was a delta wing interceptor in direct competition with the J-8. J-8 was chosen because of the more modest demands placed on the Chinese aviation industry. J-9 was cancelled after the selection process, and thus cannot benefit from the J-8II upgrade. However, J-10 actually benefits from J-9'
s design experience.

[Gollevainen]

J-9 was a delta wing interceptor in direct competition with the J-8. J-8 was chosen because of the more modest demands placed on the Chinese aviation industry. J-9 was cancelled after the selection process, and thus cannot benefit from the J-8II upgrade.

Thats new to me. I assumed that J-9 was more of J-7 repalcement, pararel to bigger J-8. Similar ways as in USSR, MiG-23 and Su-15, wich latter was strikingly similar to J-8II, served at the same time.

But if these two (J-9 and J-8) were competitiors, assume that you ment the first model of J-8, could it bee that J-8II side intakes were taken from the J-9 project?

[vincelee]

that's, at least to me, open to debate. You'll have to ask people from the the 611 institute. Although the wind tunnel model of the J-9 I've seen featured side intakes more similar to the Mirage F1, but bigger, like those on the Q-5.


by the way, don't you work?

[Gollevainen]

that's, at least to me, open to debate. You'll have to ask people from the the 611 institute. Although the wind tunnel model of the J-9 I've seen featured side intakes more similar to the Mirage F1, but bigger, like those on the Q-5.

The line drawing that i talked about had MiG-23 style intakes but with similar shockcones like in Mirages and early protoype version of MiG-23 which also featured MiG-21 type of mid set deltawing and RD-36 lift jets ...The only models that i've seen (they propaply weren't Windtunnel test models) had normal MiG-23 type inlets similar also in J-8II...

by the way, don't you work?

You mean do i have job? No, im engineer student at the moment...why?

[vincelee]

why do I ask? Because you are ALWAYS here.

[Gollevainen]

computer clasrooms, computer class rooms boy!;)
Basicly after school started, i have noticed that I spend here more time than in other wise, thought it seems to be exact opposite to those still in highschool...You need to know how to copy/paste and type google.com, to get to be an engineer so lots of free time...but lets not drift from topic...

[trkl]

1. The projected turbofan engine WS-6 (in my knowlidge, never entered serial production) is quite similar in size and performance to MiG-23s R-29/35 turbojets and Viggens JT-8 turbofan engines. Could it been pararel-project whit the J-9? I've also heard rumours that R-29 engine was to be reverse-engineered in china for the J-9. As i'm not very knowing of aerodynamics, so have anyone any clue wich engine would been more "ideal" for the plane. Also whit the ideal engine, whats the overall aerodynamic capapilityes of the whole desing (Tailess delta whit canards, but NO FBW-system)?

here's basic data of Ws-6 and R-29:

WS-6
Country: China
Manufacturer: LM
Engine mode:l WS6
Take-off rating (dry): 71.1 kN (15,991 lb) D
Take-off rating (wet): 122.1 kN (27,445 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 2,100 kg (4,630 lb)
Airflow: 155 kg (342 lb)/s
Arrangement: 3F, 11A, a/b
BPR: 1
Diameter: 1,370 mm (53.94 in)
Length: 4,654 mm (183.2 in)
Classification: Jet Engine

R-29-300
Jet Engine ID: 163
Country: Russia
Manufacturer: Soyuz
Engine model: R-29-300
Take-off rating: (dry) 78.5 kN (17,635 lb) D
Take-off rating: (wet) 122.3 kN (27,500 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 1,880 kg (4,145 lb)
Airflow: 110 kg (243 lb)/s
Arrangement: 5A, 6A, a/b
BPR: 0
Diameter: 912 mm (35.9 in)
Length: 4,960 mm (195.0 in)
Classification: Jet Engine
(engine data form venik's aviation page)

The WS-9 should be a little better than the R-29 since its a turbofan, which means that the specific fuel consumption would be significantly lower. I have heard that the WS-9 was developed for the cancelled Q-6 attack plane.


2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project? Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes? Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance? Or is it more like that the MiG-23 features from the same supposed egybtian MiGs finded their way to J-8II project after the J-9 was cancelled?

Both the J-8II and the J-9 seem to share the same type of intake that is used on Mig-23 and F-4. I have also heard that there was a J8III project at one time which would have had canards and FBW. There is probably some tech transfer from both J-9 and J-8III to J-10. Origionally, Shenyang(company which makes J-8) had control of both the J8 and J-9 projects, but the control of the J-9 project was later transfered to Chengdu (company which makes the J-10 and FC-1).

3. When the J-9 project was started and when officically cancelled? Some sort of timeline, and how well it was pararel to J-8II? Was J-9 project "live" during the flirtations whit the west just prior to the 1989 incidence? Could there have been any proposal of western participation on this project?

Well there are many "could there" and "would there"s but feel free to give any toughts what comes to mind (no offtopic BS) Also why do we have to focus on J-9 solely? If you have anything about other cancelled chinese aviation projects, this topic can cover them also. I try to give update from my own research concerning the matter and perhaps introduce some other chinese fighter project lime the DF series or the orginal J-10 project...

Deino is making a chart of all Chinese fighter projects. According to the chart, J-9 was cancelled around 1980.http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=102291

[Gollevainen]

Thanks for the answers...

Now this Deino's statistic shows that J-9 was started at the same time as J-8 and was continued after J-8 had made it's deput filght. Also if the project was started by Shenyang, wich also is responsiple of J-8, then how can they be each others competiors...is Shenyang welthy enough to make "in-house" offer-contest? I don't belive so. This Deino's pic makes me more covinced of my orginal toughts that J-9 was intended more of J-7s and J-6s replacements, sort like J-10 is today...propelm was that the J-9 was way too complicated for the chinese aviation manufactory industries at that time.

[ahho]

could it be that at the time j-9 was terminated, china wanted to stop using mig design?????

[adeptitus]

2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project? Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes?


I think unless if we see a photo of an Egypitan MiG-23 in China, we can't say it's there for a fact. However from public data avail, it does seem that Egypt has supplied several soviet era aircraft to other nations. There's an aviation hobby fan who collects these data:
http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/Defections.html

Egypt has been known to supply Su-20 (Su-17M) and MiG-23 to PRC (1979), Su-20 to West Germany, and MiG-17 & MiG-23 to USA. The Egyptian MiG-17 is now in USAF museum.

If Egypt supplied the Su-20 and MiG-23 in 1979, and the J-9 program was cancelled in 1980, I think we can say that the J-9 was not based on the MiG-23 supplied to PRC from Egypt.

[MIGleader]

The WS-9 should be a little better than the R-29 since its a turbofan, which means that the specific fuel consumption would be significantly lower. I have heard that the WS-9 was developed for the cancelled Q-6 attack plane.



Both the J-8II and the J-9 seem to share the same type of intake that is used on Mig-23 and F-4. I have also heard that there was a J8III project at one time which would have had canards and FBW. There is probably some tech transfer from both J-9 and J-8III to J-10. Origionally, Shenyang(company which makes J-8) had control of both the J8 and J-9 projects, but the control of the J-9 project was later transfered to Chengdu (company which makes the J-10 and FC-1).



Deino is making a chart of all Chinese fighter projects. According to the chart, J-9 was cancelled around 1980.http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=102291

what ws-9? this is the ws-6. the ws-9 is the engine powering the jh-7a.
im guessing the j-9 was a project for an advanced initiated in the 1970s, but its design and powerplant proved to complicated for china to handle. only after experience with the wes and russians did they finally manage a more advanced plane.

[trkl]

what ws-9? this is the ws-6. the ws-9 is the engine powering the jh-7a.


Sorry, I meant to say WS-6.

[Deino]

....:china:

[crobato]

1. The projected turbofan engine WS-6 (in my knowlidge, never entered serial production) is quite similar in size and performance to MiG-23s R-29/35 turbojets and Viggens JT-8 turbofan engines. Could it been pararel-project whit the J-9? I've also heard rumours that R-29 engine was to be reverse-engineered in china for the J-9. As i'm not very knowing of aerodynamics, so have anyone any clue wich engine would been more "ideal" for the plane. Also whit the ideal engine, whats the overall aerodynamic capapilityes of the whole desing (Tailess delta whit canards, but NO FBW-system)?


My understanding is that both engines were certainly well beyond the metallurgical capabilities of China that time. Both engines have a thrust that is right in the same range as the PW F100/AL-31F but the design heritage is at least a generation behind. Even the R-29 was pushing the boundaries for the Russians.

Between the two engines, the R-29 is probably the most likely one, at least originally, and the WS-6 may have come later. At the time the J-9 was being concieved, there was an emphasis on high altitude, high speed anti bomber interception, and that favors a turbojet design over a turbofan. Not just the diameter is smaller, which reduces the aircraft cross section, but a turbojet is generally more efficient than a turbofan at higher speeds.


2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project?


Not much at all. Both were in fact, parallel projects. The J-8II was most probably the backup in case the J-9 failed.


Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes?


Oh definitely its more than true. For evidence, look no further than the Minsk theme park and the planes displayed on the deck. The MiG-23s are in fact more than just intact, they are in mint condition still sporting their Egyptian camouflage.


Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance?

No.


Or is it more like that the MiG-23 features from the same supposed egybtian MiGs finded their way to J-8II project after the J-9 was cancelled?


No. Projects were parallel.


3. When the J-9 project was started and when officically cancelled? Some sort of timeline, and how well it was pararel to J-8II? Was J-9 project "live" during the flirtations whit the west just prior to the 1989 incidence? Could there have been any proposal of western participation on this project?


Started around the late sixties and officially terminated sometime in the early eighties. It actually started as a tailed delta---with aerodynamics that was ancestral from the MiG-21---then turned into a canard delta. At some point, the concept also changed from side intakes, to a square underslung intake, no doubt the inspirational basis leading later to the J-10.



Well there are many "could there" and "would there"s but feel free to give any toughts what comes to mind (no offtopic BS) Also why do we have to focus on J-9 solely? If you have anything about other cancelled chinese aviation projects, this topic can cover them also. I try to give update from my own research concerning the matter and perhaps introduce some other chinese fighter project lime the DF series or the orginal J-10 project...

There is also the original J-12 project, of which there is actually one flying prototype built. Basically the plane uses just one of the J-6 WP-6 engines, and is only a clear weather day fighter with a round inlet nose. But even in the sixties, a radarless day fighter only no longer has any relevance, so it was cancelled. Other projects also include the original J-13, which is analogous to the Mirage F1.

[szbd]

Thanks for the answers...

Now this Deino's statistic shows that J-9 was started at the same time as J-8 and was continued after J-8 had made it's deput filght. Also if the project was started by Shenyang, wich also is responsiple of J-8, then how can they be each others competiors...is Shenyang welthy enough to make "in-house" offer-contest? I don't belive so.


Both J8 and J9 started in Shenyang because that was the only organization capable for fighter design at that time. J9 was almost canceled just a short time after its start, because of lack of resource. Then there was this "great 3rd line construction", many industry especially defence industry plants were decided to be built in south west China. One of them was a new aviation industry plant, the division in Shenyang responsible for J9 moved to Chengdu as the backbone of this new plant. Then the real contest started.

This new plant in Chengdu is CAC, home town of J10 and JF17.

[crobato]

Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance?

No.

Let me rephrase that. More like a shortened version.

The projects are concurrent of each other, and more or less independent even if some data are shared. Due to similarities in design principles and due to the MiG-21 influence, there will be convergences.

[szbd]

Actually the main achievement of J9 project was testing on a bunch of different airframes. Then China found out since she can't develop good engines and fly by wire systems, there's no way to match the top fighters in other countries. Then the project was abondoned.

[crobato]

Let me rephrase that. More like a shortened version.

The projects are concurrent of each other, and more or less independent even if some data are shared. Due to similarities in design principles and due to the MiG-21 influence, there will be convergences.

Let me rephase that one more time. I finally went to check the J-9 thread in the CDF, and lo and behold, I didn't notice it before, but there is a drawing of the original tailed configuration for the J-9.

While it shares the same configuration as the J-8II, it is interesting to note that the wing aspect does not. The delta on the J-9 is not as steeply raked as the J-8II, and the plane overall lacks the same sense of length.
The root of the wing is slightly behind the tip, to give the delta a slight diamond shape. Though not as fast, the plane would have been more maneuverable than the J-8II.

[Deino]

Hmmm ... not real but a very good CG !!! :china:

http://www.aviationnow.com.cn/webviews/BBS/UploadFile/2007-4/2007417142038383.jpg

http://www.aviationnow.com.cn/webviews/BBS/UploadFile/2007-4/2007417142114314.jpg

[peperez]

At least in my obinion those military equipments that never saw actual service altough being very promising desings and perhaps even revolutionar tends to be one of the most interesting things. XB-70, TRS.1, Mirage 4000 and so on...adding it to my weird enthusiaism of inventing these long-term "what-if" scenarious, sometimes you get quite interesting mixes....China shares also one of those...exspecially the J-9 fighter.


Anyway , I once came agross this story in "Encyclopedia of World Military Aircraft" (Aerospace Publishing, 1994) about CATIC J-9. It was the spark that eventually led me here...giving hard time to various people in chinese military forum...And the plane still remains more of a mystery for me. While surfing on other chinese related forums i've managed to find out bit more but still many important fact concerning the project remains "out there".

So what i'm trying to say here is that why not using this forum as it should be and let's see if we can come up something covering the J-9 project as well as it is possiple with our somewhat limited resources. So if you have anything additional info on J-9 project, post it here.

I first toughted of posting this to the Vip-forum, but our vip members (no offence in anyway) seems to be more conserned about land warfare and naval matters than aviation issues.

For starter, heres the text from the book i mentioned above:



In the book, there where also nice linedrawing of the latter configuration.

Few things that concerns me most are these:

1. The projected turbofan engine WS-6 (in my knowlidge, never entered serial production) is quite similar in size and performance to MiG-23s R-29/35 turbojets and Viggens JT-8 turbofan engines. Could it been pararel-project whit the J-9? I've also heard rumours that R-29 engine was to be reverse-engineered in china for the J-9. As i'm not very knowing of aerodynamics, so have anyone any clue wich engine would been more "ideal" for the plane. Also whit the ideal engine, whats the overall aerodynamic capapilityes of the whole desing (Tailess delta whit canards, but NO FBW-system)?

here's basic data of Ws-6 and R-29:

WS-6
Country: China
Manufacturer: LM
Engine mode:l WS6
Take-off rating (dry): 71.1 kN (15,991 lb) D
Take-off rating (wet): 122.1 kN (27,445 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 2,100 kg (4,630 lb)
Airflow: 155 kg (342 lb)/s
Arrangement: 3F, 11A, a/b
BPR: 1
Diameter: 1,370 mm (53.94 in)
Length: 4,654 mm (183.2 in)
Classification: Jet Engine

R-29-300
Jet Engine ID: 163
Country: Russia
Manufacturer: Soyuz
Engine model: R-29-300
Take-off rating: (dry) 78.5 kN (17,635 lb) D
Take-off rating: (wet) 122.3 kN (27,500 lb) W
Weight: (dry) 1,880 kg (4,145 lb)
Airflow: 110 kg (243 lb)/s
Arrangement: 5A, 6A, a/b
BPR: 0
Diameter: 912 mm (35.9 in)
Length: 4,960 mm (195.0 in)
Classification: Jet Engine
(engine data form venik's aviation page)

2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project? Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes? Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance? Or is it more like that the MiG-23 features from the same supposed egybtian MiGs finded their way to J-8II project after the J-9 was cancelled?

3. When the J-9 project was started and when officically cancelled? Some sort of timeline, and how well it was pararel to J-8II? Was J-9 project "live" during the flirtations whit the west just prior to the 1989 incidence? Could there have been any proposal of western participation on this project?

Well there are many "could there" and "would there"s but feel free to give any toughts what comes to mind (no offtopic BS) Also why do we have to focus on J-9 solely? If you have anything about other cancelled chinese aviation projects, this topic can cover them also. I try to give update from my own research concerning the matter and perhaps introduce some other chinese fighter project lime the DF series or the orginal J-10 project...

In 1987 I visited a lot of Chinese aircraft factories and Shenyang Aeronautical Research Center. There I saw a line of F-8 in original form, some MiG-21 BIS and, under tarpaulin, a MiG-23. It was very interesting.

Cheers from Brazil

Pepe Rezende

[peperez]

J-9 was a delta wing interceptor in direct competition with the J-8. J-8 was chosen because of the more modest demands placed on the Chinese aviation industry. J-9 was cancelled after the selection process, and thus cannot benefit from the J-8II upgrade. However, J-10 actually benefits from J-9'
s design experience.

J-10 has almost the same J-9 wing planform, probably with a new profile. It owes more to its ancestor than to Lavi.

Pepe Rezende

[peperez]

My understanding is that both engines were certainly well beyond the metallurgical capabilities of China that time. Both engines have a thrust that is right in the same range as the PW F100/AL-31F but the design heritage is at least a generation behind. Even the R-29 was pushing the boundaries for the Russians.

Between the two engines, the R-29 is probably the most likely one, at least originally, and the WS-6 may have come later. At the time the J-9 was being concieved, there was an emphasis on high altitude, high speed anti bomber interception, and that favors a turbojet design over a turbofan. Not just the diameter is smaller, which reduces the aircraft cross section, but a turbojet is generally more efficient than a turbofan at higher speeds.



Not much at all. Both were in fact, parallel projects. The J-8II was most probably the backup in case the J-9 failed.



Oh definitely its more than true. For evidence, look no further than the Minsk theme park and the planes displayed on the deck. The MiG-23s are in fact more than just intact, they are in mint condition still sporting their Egyptian camouflage.



No.



No. Projects were parallel.



Started around the late sixties and officially terminated sometime in the early eighties. It actually started as a tailed delta---with aerodynamics that was ancestral from the MiG-21---then turned into a canard delta. At some point, the concept also changed from side intakes, to a square underslung intake, no doubt the inspirational basis leading later to the J-10.




There is also the original J-12 project, of which there is actually one flying prototype built. Basically the plane uses just one of the J-6 WP-6 engines, and is only a clear weather day fighter with a round inlet nose. But even in the sixties, a radarless day fighter only no longer has any relevance, so it was cancelled. Other projects also include the original J-13, which is analogous to the Mirage F1.

Two J-12 were built. One of them is at Beijing Air Museum, the other one I saw in derelict form at Nanchang Aircraft Factory.

Cheers

Pepe Rezende

[crobato]

Hmmm ... not real but a very good CG

It is pretty good. He even got the J-9 assigned to the 1st Division.

[adeptitus]

Slightly off-topic, but here's an artist drawing of another stillborn project:
http://wiki.livedoor.jp/namacha2/d/Q%2d6%b9%b6%b7%e2%b5%a1%a1%ca%b6%af%b7%e26/A%2d6%a1%cb

[Gollevainen]

Oh yeas, the Q-6. WHat has always wondered me is that all the sketches of it seems to have very close to MiG-23 style VG wings and didn't the orginal J-10 supposed to have them as well?...is the shift to deltawings a later solution when the VG prooved to be too challencing?


And thanks Deino, those really are nice...What I personally except from CGIs are these kind of past what ifs rathern than quirky and sthealthy J-xx suggestions :china:

[crobato]

Q-6 is originally an artist speculation of future PLAAF aircraft by Popular Mechanics or some similar magazine published way back in the seventies. Its not clear how authentic the concept is, it seems more like an extrapolation. Out of the designs featured in that magazine, which was a few I recall, incluing a Q-5 like fighter, the one dealing with a larger, VG wing attacker using Spey engines (the deal was inked already at that time) is the one that turned out closest to reality in the form of the JH-7, though the pictured design didn't look like it.

The Chinese abandoned VG wisely because it was too complex. Rather than a delta, they chose instead a sweep wing with a compound sweep geometry for the JH-7.

[Deino]

Q-6 is originally an artist speculation of future PLAAF aircraft by Popular Mechanics or some similar magazine published way back in the seventies. Its not clear how authentic the concept is, it seems more like an extrapolation. Out of the designs featured in that magazine, which was a few I recall, incluing a Q-5 like fighter, the one dealing with a larger, VG wing attacker using Spey engines (the deal was inked already at that time) is the one that turned out closest to reality in the form of the JH-7, though the pictured design didn't look like it.
...

Ohhh ... ver interesting ! Do You have the pictures You spoke of ?? Or was it this design which looks like anew one than based on the MiG-23 airframe. Here are both in comparison.

Cheers, Deino

[crobato]

I have to look for it. The more pictures I have been collecting the harder it is it to look for them. I remember back in the seventies and eighties, Popular Mechanics had full of covers of hypothetical secret aircraft, from futuristic airliners to futuristic fighters, if they're not putting futuristic ships and tanks and spaceships in their covers. One of their great imaginations was black stealth fighter called the YF-19 that looked like a baby SR-71 turned into a fighter. There was also some other mythical stuff called "Aurora".

They made an article about speculative PLAAF aircraft and among them was their visions for a Q-6, a fighter based on the Q-5 and a Spey engined fighter. At that time, the Q-5 was apparently already known but people thought it was a fighter, not attack jet. The Spey agreement was already known, China was supposed to manufacture the Spey 212 for its civilian aircraft. It was also heard that the the Egyptians traded MiG-23s and MiG-21s in exchange for J-6s.

So Popular Mechanics speculated that China might make some kind of VG winged fighter, which was the vogue back then. The MiG-23 look alike thing is the most obvious.

[Violet Oboe]

Some two years ago I remember reading an article in Weapon Magazine and a simililar piece in World Military Affairs about a Q-6 fighter bomber project.(both are mainland publications)
The author maintained that the project progressed to mockup stage just before being canceled in 1985 and the artist concept CGI's shown in the mags were very similar to MiG-23 BN variant.

(Unfourtunately I have to clean up the mess in my ´archive´ (the more a collection grows the harder it gets to extract useful information, indeed I have the same problems like you, dear crobato!:o ) but if I come across these mags I will try to post the articles (in chinese...)):coffee:

[Deino]

I have to look for it. The more pictures I have been collecting the harder it is it to look for them. ...

They made an article about speculative PLAAF aircraft and among them was their visions for a Q-6, a fighter based on the Q-5 and a Spey engined fighter. At that time, the Q-5 was apparently already known but people thought it was a fighter, not attack jet. The Spey agreement was already known, China was supposed to manufacture the Spey 212 for its civilian aircraft. It was also heard that the the Egyptians traded MiG-23s and MiG-21s in exchange for J-6s.
....

Any success with Your search on these pictures ??? ... would be very fine if You could find them !

Anyway I just noticed this poster ... and although I thought it was an older one there are some new additions below the FC-1 !! :confused: :confused:

CAn anyone help me out ???? ... just another one of Fan-art ??? ... and whatÄ's that strange Il-76-version ???

CHeers, Deino

[crobato]

I have not placed emphasis on looking for the pictures, as a matter of fact, I forgot about them entirely.

On the strange nosed IL-76, it looks to me like another variant of an AEW aircraft, but with radar on the nose, possibly also intended for ground and surface surveillance, tasks which may be problematic with a circular dome layout.

The pic looks like it is from AVIC. Note that 3rd generation fighter (J-11) appears around the 2000 line frame.