the future of the jinaghus and jiangweis

[MIGleader]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/thailand/images/naresuan-5.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/thailand/images/taksin-4.jpg

the royal thai navy NARESUAN (TYPE 25T) (FFG)
Frigate

thay were made from two jiangweis purchased form china
if thailand can make such impressive vessels from the jiangweis, why cant china do the same with its older vessels?:confused:

[Gollevainen]

well dont missunderstood that they are made of Jiaunghus by rebuilding an existing warship. They are custom build, and the hull desing is based of those older frigates. There is no way that china could start rebuilding those old rusty ships to that standard, and very unlikely to build those to replace them as there are more efficent desings awaible...

[adeptitus]

Some specs on the Royal Thai Navy Naresuan Class (25T) Frigates:
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/asiapac/thailand.htm#2

Displacement: 2,900 tons full load
Dimensions: 119 x 13 x 3.8 meters (390.5 x 42.5 x 12.5 feet)
Propulsion: 2 shafts; 2 cruise diesels, 14,770 bhp; 2 LM2500 boost gas turbines, 50,000 shp, 32 knots
Crew: 150
Aviation: aft helicopter deck and hangar; 1 light helo
Radar: LW-08 2-D air search
Sonar: DE-1160 hull
Fire Control: Mk 92, Mk 91 missile control, STIR-18 gun control
EW: SLQ-32(V)2 intercept
Armament: 8 Harpoon SSM, 1 8-cell VL Sea Sparrow launcher 1 5/54 DP, 2 dual 37 mm AA, 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes

LW-08 Radar:
http://www.hazegray.org/features/nato/netherl/heemsk/witte4.jpg

It's somewhat like a smaller version of the Dutch Kortenaer multipurpose frigate, minus the Goalkeeper CIWS system.

[Gollevainen]

whit that exeption that the mentioned Sea sparrow VSL cells arent fitted (you cna check it on those pics)

[MIGleader]

whit that exeption that the mentioned Sea sparrow VSL cells arent fitted (you cna check it on those pics)

it looks like as if it should go after the main gun, but theres just a blank space.

if china doesnt want to upgrade its jianghus an weis, what will it do? its a waste to scrap em.

[Gollevainen]

Why it is waste to scrab...scrab???

[MIGleader]

Why it is waste to scrab...scrab???

what would u do with them once scrapped? chian has plenty of stell, it doesnt need to reuse 30 year old metal. it might aswell retro fit them with improved sensors, anti sub rokets, yj-83s, helicopter decks and ak-630s. some of this has already been done on some warships.

[Gollevainen]

Well i have understand that their building is rather qubitious quality...and besides, its after modernization, it makes them only par whit western/russian ships of 80's technology...and all that money is out of building modern desings...And by scrabing them, you always get some money out of them, steel is always needed in china's scale of economy. Remember, that Brazilians funded threir purchase of Foch by simply scraping the old Minas Gerais...(thougth the deal was one of the bargains of the century)

[DPRKUnderground]

So what's so special about these Thai Jangweis?

[Gollevainen]

So what's so special about these Thai Jangweis?

Well first they are not jiangweis...but completely new class whit new machinery arragment. The hull is said based on the Jiangwei's but it is bit larger.

[Sea Dog]

And not just these two ships. The Luda is upgraded as well. I'll have to check again about the Luda III, but it appears to have been given some added life. Not bad for an old design. And if I'm not mistaken, PLAN still makes good use of the jianghu's and jiangwei's. Both respectable for what their purposes are.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

chian has plenty of stell, it doesnt need to reuse 30 year old metal

China has to import steel to meet its construction demands, and prices are rising.

Also, just melt it down and 30-year steel is as good as new. Remember, technically all steel are 6 billion year old steel, since they've always been in the earth.

[trkl]

China has to import steel to meet its construction demands, and prices are rising.

China is roughly self-sufficient in steel. China is both the world's largest producer and the largest consumer of steel, producing/consuming about 1/3 of of the world's steel.

Also, just melt it down and 30-year steel is as good as new. Remember, technically all steel are 6 billion year old steel, since they've always been in the earth.

Steel is not a naturally occuring material. It is a man-made alloy of Iron and carbon(usually with small ammounts of other elements as well).

[PiSigma]

and also depends what kind of steel you are talking about. martensite, sphereodite, pearlite, etc. steel production is different for every grade of steel, the quenching could get very difficult for some. also, good steal nowadays is not just iron and carbon anymore, for example 304 grade stainless steel (the most common stainless steel) is composed of carbon, manganese, silicon, potasium, sulphur, chromium, molybdenum, nickle, nitrogen, and iron. even within 304 grade, there are basic 304, 304H and 304L. with totally different tensile strength, yield strength, hardness and elongation. not every steel mill in a country is going to be producing a single kind of steel, they probably specialize in one kind depends on market. so to say that all steel is 6 billion yrs old is false. china can meet her depands for certain grades of steel, but can't for others. that's y china exports and import steel. export the excess steel she produce and import the steel she needs.

eg. tensile strength for 304 is 205MPa, 304L is 170MPa <---- huge difference

[Mazepa]

Did they not ship all the steel from the WTC disaster to china? I guess they could use it to make their national defence even bigger. I am sure they want to protect their country as much as every other country does, so then you need to stop all intruders from entering your borders...

[MIGleader]

Did they not ship all the steel from the WTC disaster to china? I guess they could use it to make their national defence even bigger. I am sure they want to protect their country as much as every other country does, so then you need to stop all intruders from entering your borders...

no, they are using some wtc steel to build a new navy amphibious ship. the rest i think is to be used in the new wtc.

[DPRKUnderground]

Well first they are not jiangweis...but completely new class whit new machinery arragment. The hull is said based on the Jiangwei's but it is bit larger.

On Globabl Security.org it says that Thailand had to basically rebuild them b/c of poor construction by the Chinese, but did they add new systems?

[Gollevainen]

Well it propaply means the normal looking jiangjus that are operated by Thailand, Chao Praya class....

http://www2.janes.com/janesdata/yb/jfs/images/p0130152.jpg

[sumdud]

The Jiangweis are good frigates. They don't need to be upgraded at all and can stay for quite a while. In fact, it and the type 54 don't really have much significant differences as of now other than CIWS and stealth.
Well, at least the JiangWei 2s. But you can upgrade the JiangWei1s into 2s likely.

As for the Jianghus, I say cannabalize them.
You can scrap all of them because they still are of a considerable amount and scrapping them will leave you with too little boats. But right now, those ships, being of bad walls and quality, are just sucking up your money.

I say to scrap all Jianghu-1s, take their PL-8H/9D SAM and install them on Jianghu-2s and 3s. (Which has manual AAAs.) Enclose the cabins of the Jianghu-2s (No NBC.) Upgrade SSMs to C-802 and SY-2s.

[muyang523]

The PLAN should keep Jiangwei since they are still pretty capable frigates. They should scrap the old Jianghu for scrap metal and keep the upgraded Jianghus for a few more years.

[adeptitus]

I'm looking at the Jianghu-IV (053-HT-H/#544 Siping) with the aft helicopter deck:
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/jianghu1_2_4.asp

IMO if such refit is cost effective for old Jianghu frigates, it might be possible to turn them into multi-mission capable patrol ships. The helicopter could be used for target acquisition, ASW, anti-shipping, or search & rescue missions.

Ripping guns and missiles out and replacing it with a helicopter deck is probably not that expensive. But if we start getting into radar, fire control, weapon system upgrades, then it'd get pricy. At minimum, the ships should replace its old AAA with modern CIWS systems.

IMO we shouldn't overlook the possibility of using ship-based helicopters as an anti-ship weapon. The successor to the AGM-119 Penguin, the Kongsberg NSM, is estimated to carry a 120 kg warhead with >150 km range.

Also, another factor to consider is that some of PRC's neighbors by the sea don't have powerful navies. For an example North Korea only has 3 light frigates with Styx SSM's, Malaysia has 4 light frigates with MM40 Exocets, and Vietnam/Philippines/Burma(Myanmar) only has patrol boats. So if the PLAN needs to send patrol frigates in those areas, you don't need more than light frigates equipped with silkworm missiles to serve as effective deterrant.

[maddogy4645]

The biggest force multipliers for the older PLAN ships in my opinon are advanced hull sonars, towed-array sonars, and towed torpedoe-decoys. These would turn these old junks into valuable ASW augments to the new surface combatants.

[MIGleader]

of course, the plan could extesively refit all of its old destroyers of destroyers and frigate with new ashm, sams, radar and sensors, improved engines, stealthier guns, and ram paint. but such a venture would incredibly expensive, and wasteful. im sure china would rather build new ships instead.

i agree with maddoggy. china is in lack of dedicated anti-sub assets, and these old ships provide great platforms. hers a plan:

fit a helicopter deck and hanger for two helicopeters

install a large towed sonar, and a sonar center on the ships.

fit the ship with yu-7 tubes and anti sub rockets, along wih communications equipment so it can warn other ships.

put in a hq-7A and two ak-630s for self defense.

[sadim81]

Hi all, I know this topic has been silent for a while but recently found this little pic floating on http://military.china.com/

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-12-07/1020487_935164430.jpg

looks like China isn't ready to give up on the Jianweis yet but might they be thinking of upgrading as well? cause these pics were also floating...

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-12-06/1020487_839666545.jpg
http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-12-06/1020487_839666859.jpg

is it feasible/econimical to put VLS on a platform such as a Jiangwei? or would China be better to do what MIGleader suggests and use future Jiangweis for ASW and stick with 052Cs and 051Cs (even 054s) for air defence? I would really like to know what you knowledgeable members think. cheers.

[Mr_C]

is it feasible/econimical to put VLS on a platform such as a Jiangwei? or would China be better to do what MIGleader suggests and use future Jiangweis for ASW and stick with 052Cs and 051Cs (even 054s) for air defence? I would really like to know what you knowledgeable members think. cheers.

Jiangwei seems to be too small to have a VLS installed. The VLS would most probably be reserved or the 054A frigates when/if they comes out. However without VLS the Jiangwei will still be good multirole platform and will not be scrapped for a while. If no future chinese frigates have VLS, it might suggest that the PLAN strategy is to concentrate their main fleet air defence to VLS equiped destroyers. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Is it just me, or does it look like the Thai frigates have stealth features? They seemed to lack any sharp or rough angles.

[MIGleader]

ALAS!!!
Beware of luda!!!
it seems china has modernized almost all of its 16 luda class destroyers with modern radars, combat systems, yj-83s, twin 37mm aaa, and hq-7s. this gives this 30 year old warship the same firepower and almost the same general abilities of 167 shenzhen!!

of course, the upgrade vary from ship to ship. some ships have been upgraded with stealthy turrets, while 105 jinan has been retrofitted with a helicopter deck and hanger. other vessels have 76mm aaa. a few units have the yu-7 tropedo for asw.

but this kind of upgrade signifigantly extends the life of the ludas, allowing to actully compete with more modern vessels in the high seas.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/jianghu4_1.jpg
why cant the plan upgrade more jinghus to be like this one?(name kept confidential).

[tphuang]

I would think PLAN probably figure that Jianghus are too small to be retrofitted? Or maybe it's not worth the cost. With the upgrade, Luda will no longer be jokes. It might have more than the purpose of a cannon fodder.

[sumdud]

JaingWeis are definitely going to stay.
But the old JiangHus, I see no point at all at keeping them.
For the JiangHu-3 They should give the ships better AAA, radar controlled.
For the JiangHu-5s, they should install the SY-2As.
For the JiangHu-1s and 2s, scrap them near-immediately would probably be best. If they have any fighting values left, I'll think it's better to turn each of them into different types of ships, dedicated to one roles. I doubt you can turn such small ships into multi-role vessels. As we've seen, the Siping and 516 has went through such upgrades. Siping is now a ASW ship, 516 an land attack ship. After all, you aren't going to sent out a JiangHu out again, so it should be pretty much covered.

and China or NATO need to get the names better.........

[xihaoli]

The Jianghus, although old and in poor condition, can still be put to some use by the PLAN. It should be remebered that the ROC navy still operates some Modernized Gearing Hull's from the 1940s.

As for their future, the space offered by the Jianghu's is simply to limited for any type of a multirole vessal. If they were to be upgraded, they would really only be fit for a single role such as firesupppot, Asw (badly needed so might be worth considering), Anti-air (Think of it as an extension storage of missiles for destroyers), or anti-ship (they already are so don't bother). On the other hand, they could go for a complete make over and upgrade them to the Tailand type 25s.....Mk 41 vls, Yj-802.....they pack quite a punch, although It'll probrably be better do build newer destroyers. As for rescue and anti-smuggling missions, they PLAN already have way to many retired gun/missile/torpedo boats so why bother.

As for the Jiangweis, they are fine ships, modest, but fine neverless. The only thing I think they lack to compete with western ships are a better airdefence system, and better Asw. (Seems like every Plan ships needs this...) The Jiangweis certainly do not lack space for say, a HQ-7 reloader, or two type 730 CIWS. The thing is, even with the new ships, the Jiangweis's represent china's only source of short range S2A missiles....

Another thing, the Jianghu and Jiangwei are more like large corvettes by today's standard, then again, the type 52C could probrably be called a frigate......the German 124's are more capable then most destroyers....

The Lada upgrade seems....interesting. How many have been upgraded? It think is was said on CDF that only four have been upgraded.....although 16 YJ-803 and a HQ-7 does seem formidable. Heck, they are still one of the better ships in S.E.Asia.