Congratulations China!

[Jones Henry]

Congratulations China on your rise and your new submarine navy! This will give the "world police" something more to think about:nono: :china:


http://www.spacewar.com/news/submarine-05r.html

[Su-27 Pilot]

Congratulations China on your rise and your new submarine navy! This will give the "world police" something more to think about:nono: :china:


http://www.spacewar.com/news/submarine-05r.html


Finally the World has SOMEONE to count on for the protect of Peace.

[bd popeye]

Jones Henry, You need to research what you post.

The USN is countering the comeback of desiel boats as I write this....

The USN has no diesel subs to practice hunting. So some time ago they contracted out a Swedish Gotland class boat for these duties.The Boat arrived in San Diego in August and is currently helping the USN find ways to detect and destroy desiel boats. For your information diesel boats are used generally for littoral water and are not intended to venture far out to sea.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1370427/posts

US Navy to hone hunting skills on (leased) Swedish sub
The Virginian-Pilot ^ | 24/03/05 | By JACK DORSEY

Posted on 03/25/2005 4:32:39 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki

Navy to hone hunting skills on Swedish sub

By JACK DORSEY, The Virginian-Pilot

© March 24, 2005

NORFOLK — The Navy has formally agreed to lease a Swedish submarine and its crew for a year so U.S. nuclear-powered subs, as well as other ships and planes, can practice hunting it.

Under a memorandum of understanding signed this week in Norfolk with the Fleet Forces Command, the Swedish navy will send a Gotland-class sub to San Diego, where it will help the sea service train to combat the potential threat of diesel-powered submarines in the hands of rogue nations.

The 200-foot submarine, which displaces 1,490 tons and carries a crew of about 30, will become frequent prey of American sub hunters nearly twice its size. Los Angeles-class fast attack submarines, for example, are 360-feet long, carry a crew of 140 and displace 7,147 tons when submerged.

The U.S. is interested in studying the quietness of the diesel-powered boats, since it no longer has any of its own, Jim Brantley, a spokesman for the Fleet Forces Command, said Wednesday.

Under the $17.5 million contract, the Swedish sub will be transported to San Diego by a heavy lift ship and will provide up to 160 days of service during the contract’s term, Brantley said.

An air independent propulsion system allows it to spend up to two weeks at sea, submerged and without snorkeling, while traveling at five knots, he said. Although it will be attached to San Diego-based Submarine Squadron 11, the vessel will be Swedish-flagged, commanded, manned and operated, with U.S. Navy personnel aboard as riders and observers.

The project also will focus on acoustic analysis of fleet operators aboard all anti-submarine platforms, including carriers, surface ships and aircraft, the Navy said.

“This U.S.-Swedish effort will demonstrate the further development of international interoperability between the two nations,” Inspector of the Royal Swedish Navy, Rear Adm. Jorgen Ericsson, said in a Navy statement.

Nations worldwide continue to acquire quiet and lethal submarines designed to operate in shallow ocean depths, the Navy said. With advanced developments in weaponry and propulsion, the nature of anti-submarine warfare has changed, increasing the risks to U.S. ships.

“This will vastly improve our capability to conduct realistic, effective antisubmarine warfare training that is so critical to the Navy’s ability to accomplish our mission,” said Rear Adm. Donald K. Bullard, director of readiness and training for Fleet Forces Command.

[DPRKUnderground]

The Songs and Kilos are very good submarines, but China's nuclear submarines are very loud and their tech isn't too great. But I think the Yuan SSK will be a good submarine, I don't know about a Bluewater Navy yet. Not until the Type-094 and Yuan is out!

[MIGleader]

The Songs and Kilos are very good submarines, but China's nuclear submarines are very loud and their tech isn't too great. But I think the Yuan SSK will be a good submarine, I don't know about a Bluewater Navy yet. Not until the Type-094 and Yuan is out!

china now operates 2 yuan, two type 93, and a single type 94

[tphuang]

china now operates 2 yuan, two type 93, and a single type 94
I think a third 093 is being built right now. Although, none of them are commissionned yet. As for 093 and 094, there has been a lot of speculations on their noise level. The Taiwanese intelligence estimated 093 to be at 130 db, which is much better than 155 of 091, but louder than 115 of akula and much louder than the American ones.

[Sea Dog]

From what I heard, the 093 is on par with the Victor III Russian SSN. That means the 093 is a good submarine design. And I think the first 093 did some sea trials. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

[supertran]

Someone go find me a picture of 093/094 or go spy on the bases and take one for me and show it. I have yet to see a picture of these submarines.

[Gauntlet]

From what I heard, the 093 is on par with the Victor III Russian SSN. That means the 093 is a good submarine design. And I think the first 093 did some sea trials. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Seeing all of the Victors has beeing taken out of action and have been replaced buy Akulas, Sierras and in the future, possible Graneys, I wouldnt call them realy good submarines.

Maybe for a first try (Chinas first, that is) maybe, but not in an upcoming war...

[Jeff Head]

Someone go find me a picture of 093/094 or go spy on the bases and take one for me and show it. I have yet to see a picture of these submarines. Best speculative picture of the 093s I have seen is the following:

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-SSN093-1.jpg

But that is too indistinct to say for sure.

[supertran]

Thanks Jeff, yeah its hard to see but at least its something.. By the way I like your website Jeff.

-Someone sold us a picture of the so called "type 093", but I have my doubts (I'll find it later today and post it)

[ger_mark]

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-SSN093-1.jpg

that pic doesnt prove anything, coulb be nessy as well

[Jeff Head]

that pic doesnt prove anything, coulb be nessy as wellThat pic wasn't meant to prove anything. That's why I called it speculative. It's just specualtion, not proof.

[MIGleader]

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-SSN093-1.jpg

that pic doesnt prove anything, coulb be nessy as well

two type 93s have been launched already. whether the pic shows them is unclear.

[supertran]

Okay like I said this is a picture someone from another forum said was 093. I honestly dont know

http://www.armsky.com/BbsJunshi/U5ploadFi8les/200506/20050622111838178.jpg

[Jeff Head]

two type 93s have been launched already. whether the pic shows them is unclear.

Agreed.

[Sea Dog]

two type 93s have been launched already. whether the pic shows them is unclear.

That's what I thought also. I even read somewhere (Sorry, I don't remember where) one went on sea trials. hmmm. It would be nice to see a clear picture of it though. I mean, we got to see the Yuan SSK for cryin' out loud.

[tphuang]

That's what I thought also. I even read somewhere (Sorry, I don't remember where) one went on sea trials. hmmm. It would be nice to see a clear picture of it though. I mean, we got to see the Yuan SSK for cryin' out loud.
The issue is that nuclear subs are considered strategic weapons, so there are more secrecy over them.

[Sea Dog]

Seeing all of the Victors has beeing taken out of action and have been replaced buy Akulas, Sierras and in the future, possible Graneys, I wouldnt call them realy good submarines.

Maybe for a first try (Chinas first, that is) maybe, but not in an upcoming war...

Well, you're right. The Akula's definitely outclass Victor III's. But that doesn't mean the 093 designed at Victor III level is not going to be a credible nuclear sub. 093 clearly goes beyond what was built into the HAN SSN. China has learned alot about nuclear propulsion since the Han came into service.

@ tphuang - I agree with you. But I think once the 093's go through complete sea trials, we might get to see them. Well, that's the hope anyways.

[Mazepa]

It is indeed true that US navy has leased the Gotland class AIP submarine to train their ASW forces to find diesel-submarines. The status after the latest months is that US navy is having severe problems even finding it at all.... So to say that the US navy will be able to sink a AIP diesel-submarine after the training with the Swedish navy is ridicilus. It will instead show how hard it is to even find it at all before it finds you..

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003780.php


Some nice shots of Yankees looking for our sub :)

http://www.1ubflj.mil.se/photo.php?id=101904&nid=29052
http://www.1ubflj.mil.se/photo.php?id=101903&nid=29052
http://www.1ubflj.mil.se/photo.php?id=101902&nid=29052

[bd popeye]

So to say that the US navy will be able to sink a AIP diesel-submarine after the training with the Swedish navy is ridicilus. It will instead show how hard it is to even find it at all before it finds you..


That's nice. Just how many sailors either from the USN or on board the Swedish sub do you know?...

I know one. My son. He's a sonar tech. He is an instructor of advanced sonar technology at the USN ASW school in San Diego. He recieves classified data from this project. He cannot discuss the project at all. So what really is going on is truely unknown.

He has stated several times to me that it is indeed difficult almost impossible to find a desiel boat. But the USN will have one year to discover ways to find and kill desiel subs. I as a 20 year USN veteran have confidence the uSN will find some method to find the deisel boats or countering them in some manner.

Did you know that the Gotland participated in the Parade of ships during fleet week in San Diego? Check out the pics!

http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=28669

http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=28701

[EternalVigil]

The reason the US is training with the swedish sub is because the swedes have the best diesel electric AIP tech, the russians diseals are much noiser than the swedes, and the US has only nuclear subs. This means that the US training against the swedish boat will make finding the heavily proliferated russian made subs much easier. Also, Sweden is friendly to the US so thats an added bonus. Im sure the Swedes and Americans discuss the ways of tracking it otherwise it wouldnt be part of a friendly formation for a carrier battle group. Sweden probably gets good training off this as well, since they probably rarely get a chance to move and train in formation like a carrier battle group. Its a win win for both countries. Plus I like Vikings, my family many generations ago came to the US in the early 1800's from Scandinavia(moms side) and England(my pops side). :)

[adeptitus]

The Gotland class submarine is also a small 1,500 ton sub, hard to find in the water like the German 212 Class. Besides Sweden, Norway also fields the excellent 1,100 ton Ula class sub. Both Sweden and Netherlands are joining forces to develop the next generation "Viking" class sub.

Here's a little funny blurb on what a single 1,150 ton Swedish sub did in a NATO exercise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ula_class_submarine

"The Ula Class submarines are some of the most quiet submarines in the world. During Joint Winter (NATO exercise), the submarine KNM Utvær was disqualified because it kept an invasion at bay, and the command wanted the land based field operations to take place. In recent years, several submarines of the Ula class have been deployed in the Mediterranean Sea in support of the NATO operation Active Endeavour, where their intelligence gathering ability have surpassed expectations. Their operatonal availability proved to be the highest of all the ships taking part in the operation."

[EternalVigil]

Was probably the french kept at bay. The first sign of trouble and the white flag is hoisted. Ok that was a bad joke just teasing.

[ger_mark]

our 2 new u212 will fight a nato fleet in february nato exercise
say goodbye to the fleet :D

[Jeff Head]

our 2 new u212 will fight a nato fleet in february nato exercise
say goodbye to the fleet :D The US navy may have its weaknesses and get surprised form time to time...but there is also no one better at learning form those surprises to the point of coming back and correcting them. They have had to do so in the past...I expect the USN will do so now as well.

They have the money, the research, the personnel...and they have the alliances with the nations who make the best AIP DEs to ensure it.

[MIGleader]

The reason the US is training with the swedish sub is because the swedes have the best diesel electric AIP tech, the russians diseals are much noiser than the swedes, and the US has only nuclear subs. This means that the US training against the swedish boat will make finding the heavily proliferated russian made subs much easier. Also, Sweden is friendly to the US so thats an added bonus. Im sure the Swedes and Americans discuss the ways of tracking it otherwise it wouldnt be part of a friendly formation for a carrier battle group. Sweden probably gets good training off this as well, since they probably rarely get a chance to move and train in formation like a carrier battle group. Its a win win for both countries. Plus I like Vikings, my family many generations ago came to the US in the early 1800's from Scandinavia(moms side) and England(my pops side). :)

aip is not noisy. its the engine that mkaes noise. and the chinese have very quiet engines. china does not use entirelty russian subs either

[bd popeye]

They have the money, the research, the personnel...and they have the alliances with the nations who make the best AIP DEs to ensure it.

They have my son!

our 2 new u212 will fight a nato fleet in february nato exercise
say goodbye to the fleet

Gotta a news flash for you. As an experienced American sailor the USN seldom puts all its ablities to use in war games against foriegn forces. Often time the US forces have let the oposing forces win.

But you just go on believing what you will.

Truth is,....A desiel sub is very hard to track. Very hard.

[EternalVigil]

aip is not noisy. its the engine that mkaes noise. and the chinese have very quiet engines. china does not use entirelty russian subs either


I did'nt say it was, I said the russian subs are compared to the european ones.

[ger_mark]

well well
u212 is like 2nd generation of gotland
with sonal stealth,infrared stealth and it noiseless (british sea king threw a sonar 20m next to it and they only heared waves)
plus very much improoved sensor system and improved aip

[Mazepa]

That's nice. Just how many sailors either from the USN or on board the Swedish sub do you know?...

I know one. My son. He's a sonar tech. He is an instructor of advanced sonar technology at the USN ASW school in San Diego. He recieves classified data from this project. He cannot discuss the project at all. So what really is going on is truely unknown.

He has stated several times to me that it is indeed difficult almost impossible to find a desiel boat. But the USN will have one year to discover ways to find and kill desiel subs. I as a 20 year USN veteran have confidence the uSN will find some method to find the deisel boats or countering them in some manner.

Did you know that the Gotland participated in the Parade of ships during fleet week in San Diego? Check out the pics!

http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=28669

http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=28701


As the Swedish military is not as secretive as the US military there has been official statements given by officers within the Swedish navy relating to the performance of the Gotland Class in USA.

What i was trying to comment is of course that finding a diesel-sub is hard even when you know that it is there. And when you dont know its there its a nightmare. The Swedish navy has good experience with littorial subhunting due to the incidence when the Soviet sub U-137 parked himself 1 nautical mile from the Karlskrona naval base 1981. After that we hunted sounds of submarines for 10 long years.....

http://www.blekingemuseum.se/bmcd/u137/galleri/ub106.jpg

[Gollevainen]

After that we hunted sounds of submarines for 10 long years.....

presuming that you are swedish?
Welcome to the forum, its nice to see our 'nordic party' to increase...