Egypt gets licence to make China jets

[BKulan]

Egypt gets licence to make China jets

Tuesday 30 August 2005, 8:20 Makka Time, 5:20 GMT

China says it is the first time it is transferring such technology

A Chinese state-owned aircraft maker has awarded Egypt's AOI Aircraft Factory a production certificate for the K-8E basic fighter jet trainer aircraft, the official Xinhua News Agency reports
AOI is producing 80 of the low-priced jets under a five-year-old contract with China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation.
The deal underscores China's use of sales of inexpensive, low-technology military hardware to shore up ties with developing nations.
A prototype of the licensed aircraft was tested in 2001 and more than 40 have already been incorporated into the Egyptian Air Force's training brigade.
AOI was presented on Monday with a Certificate of Recognition for Phase II of K-8E production, Xinhua said, recognising the Egyptian company's production technology capability and management and quality control.
Chinese officials say the deal marked the first time China has transferred aircraft production technology abroad, although it has also worked with Pakistan in development of the K-8 and other aircraft.
Pakistan in April broke ground on a factory to produce the joint Pakistan-China developed JF-17 Thunder fighter jet.
China has scored some success with exports of trainer and basic attack planes such as the subsonic K-8, with Tanzania, Sri Lanka and Zambia also buying the plane.

Read in Aljazeera



Anyone know anything about this?

[SABRE]

I am not amazed...it was about time..actualy Egypt had got Transfer of technology & facility for production early. What they wee not given was the certificate for production & China haulted the parts export to them. Egyptions were in talk with both Chinese & Pakistanis for a long time over K-8 tech transfer. Its realy good to see K-8 being ranked at top with big boys by many countries specialy in Middile East. Pakistan has selling K-8 to Saudis, UAE & 2 to Iran which may buy more.

I dont think it has been made public but Egypt is also interested in JF-17 project & may opt for technology transfer of it aswell. US is not providing them AIM-120 AMRAAM but JF-17 gives them chance to SD-10. It would be good if Egypt buys JF-17/FC-1 but its better not to give them tech transfer.

[Diving Falcon]

Unless Egypt is buying nearly 200, I don't think its even feasible for them to acquire the ability to mass produce the JF-17 at home, at most they'll be producing spare-parts (assuming China and Pak agree).

As for the K-8, it is very good news, especially for the Chinese military aviation industry, which worked the vast majority of the project.

[Sczepan]

a chinese source:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-08/30/content_473362.htm
China award Egypt aircraft production licence

Updated: 2005-08-30 07:29


CAIRO, August 29 -- An Egyptian aircraft manufacture company was awarded on Monday a production certificate by a Chinese company, the largest cooperation project between China and Egypt.


A K-8E training plane sits at an aircraft plant in Cairo, capital of Egypt, August 29, 2005. [21dnn.com]
The Certificate of Recognition for Phase II of the K-8E aircraft co-production prow was awarded by China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) to Egypt's A.O.I Aircraft Factory in the latter's factory.

On the awarding ceremony, CATIC President Fu Shula said the Egyptian factory has possessed the overall capability of production technology, quality control and production management of the K-8E aircraft.

"It is definitely a remarkable achievement of Egypt's aviation industry, and it is also a significant success of joint efforts by both the countries," he said.

Chinese Ambassador to Egypt Wu Sike, who attended the ceremony, said the two governments attach great importance to the K-8E aircraft project.

In 1999, CATIC, a major foreign trade company in China, signed a contract of 347.4 million US dollars with the Egyptian Defence Department to export 80 K-8E aircraft, a pilot training jet and its production line.

The K-8E aircraft is designed for training missions such as acrobatic, night and spin flights as well as for armament operation training.

1) after trainee program most of the time the pilots wish to change to the newest (chinese ...) planes
2) egybt don_t have to buy trainee jets, they could export them to other arabian-/african states
1) startet again .....

seems to be a win-win situation to all partizipants

[BrotherofSnake]

Egypt should stick with F-16s.

[MIGleader]

this is a trainning aircraft!!!! you cant train wit f-16's

[BrotherofSnake]

My bad, I thought Egypt was buying combat aircraft.

[swimmerXC]

well... the K-8 can be used for light-attack purpose if needed.... they should of got FTC-2000 instead, that way L-15 can actually stand a chance in the PLA market

[tphuang]

plaaf is getting 10 JL-9s next year, so I'm sure it's not forgotten.

[swimmerXC]

plaaf is getting 10 JL-9s next year, so I'm sure it's not forgotten.

the JL-9 is the FTC-2000....
if you haven't heard the news from a while back PLAAF are going with the production of JL-9 instead of L-15, which i think is complete BS, due to teh fact the L-15 is a more advance design and not based on the Mig-21
http://images.qianlong.com/mmsource/images/2003/08/21/0821L151.jpg
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/trainer/l15_1.jpg
http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/2003-08-06/3_27-1-3-66_20030806134957.jpg

[tphuang]

never mind, I misread your previous post. There is nothing wrong with getting JL-9 right now, it's better than k-8. Who knows when JL-15 is even ready for production?

Edit: according to sinodefense, it is 2008-2010

[chinawhite]

K-8s in egyptian production lines

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/egypt2.jpg
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/egypt1.jpg
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/egypt3.jpg

thanks to CC

[FreeAsia2000]

It's going to help China establish itself in the Mid-East market and eventually take over from America.

[chinawhite]

they have sold military equipment for years.

should kuwait there PLZ-45 SPA. they could have choose anyone in the world but choose to choose chinese.

sold saudi arabia SRBMs.

[adeptitus]

The K-8 Karakorum is a low cost, mature technology with many export successes since 1989:
Pakistan - 39
Myanmar - 12
Sri Lanka - 6
Zambia - 8
Namibia - 4
Egypt - 40 + 80 K8E (local production)
Zimbabwe - 6

The JL-15 is a more advanced trainer, but not a mature/proven platform.

Egypt is still very much stuck in the numerical superiority mindset against its neighbors. Even with the addition of F-16A/B's (48), F-16C/D's (148+), and Mirage-2000EM's (20), they still want to keep the old F-6/Mig-19's (90), F-7/Mig-21's (~500), F-4E's (32), and Mirage V's (72) flying as long as possible:

===== quote =====
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/egypt/airforce.htm

The Egyptian and Pakistani governments reportedly agreed in November 2000 on a major bilateral defense trade agreement which involved the refurbishment of Egyptian Air Force (EAF) aircraft in Pakistan in exchange for the supply of Egyptian F-16A/B spare parts to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The deal, which had been in preparation for some time, was reportedly finalized by Pakistan Chief Executive Gen. Pervez Musharraf and senior Egyptian officials at the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) summit in Doha on November 13-14, 2000. What was agreed, reportedly, included:

* The provision by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, near Islamabad, of major overhauls and upgrades of some or all of the airframes and engines of the EAF's 13 Dassault Mirage 5 E2 tactical fighters; appr. 45 Dassault Mirage 5 SDE tactical fighters; less than 6 Dassault Mirage 5SDR tactical reconnaissance aircraft; and 5 Dassault Mirage 5 SDD operational trainers at the Mirage Rebuild Facility, which is part of PAC;
* The provision by PAC of major overhauls and upgrades of some or all of the airframes and engines of the EAF's appr. 45 Chengdu F-7B Fishbed tactical fighters at the F-6 Rebuild Facility, part of PAC. [Although called the F-6 Rebuild Facility, it undertakes major work on A-5, F-6 and F-7 types.] As well, similar work would be undertaken on some or all of the EAF's appr. 400 Mikoyan MiG-21PFS, MiG-21PFM and MiG-21MF Fishbed tactical fighters; appr. 10 Mikoyan MiG-21R Fishbed tactical reconnaissance aircraft; and appr.12 Mikoyan MiG-21UM/US Mongol operational trainers; as well as appr. 50 Shenyang F-6 Farmer tactical fighters; 5 Shenyang FT-6 Farmer operational trainers.
* The provision by Pakistan Ordnance Factories, at Wah Cantonment, near Islamabad, of a range of ordnance and munitions for the Egyptian Armed Forces;
* Other as-yet unidentified goods and services to be provided by Pakistan to the Egyptian Armed Forces;
* Provision by Egypt of spare parts for the PAF's appr. 35 F-16A/B fighters.

==== end quote ====

One problem that the Egyptian AF has is that the primary source of military aid is from the US, so naturally the money would most likely have to be spent on US made weapons, such as the F-16. Unlike the French, the US is not likely to sell large supply of spares and munitions to Egypt.

[Sczepan]

Egypt also could have no interests to be pressed by a embargo of US spare parts (for example: look to Venezuela) - so to be independence, they should look for other contractors and liczence production to;
the next export to Egypt (and licenc after some years) could be the FC-1/JF-17 MULTIROLE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

[MIGleader]

africa and the middle east offer huge oppurtunities for china's future export market. china can produce decent quality goods cheaply, making weapons that appeal to poorer nations. the fc-1 and plz-45 are excellent starts. by 2020, china may have replaced russia in the export market.

[ger_mark]

should kuwait there PLZ-45 SPA. they could have choose anyone in the world but choose to choose chinese.

wich other spa's were offered ?

[MIGleader]

the US Britain, france, and germany had also submitted designs. im not sure about russia. the plz-45 won due its excellent performance and cheaper costs.

[ger_mark]

pzh wasnt offered in 1997
the 1st systems came out 1998...
the main competitors were PLZ-45 and americas "newest hightech" weapon m109 Paladin

[MIGleader]

that dosn't mean the germans didn't offer another spa

[ger_mark]

and wich one ?

[vincelee]

I'm not sure if Germany submitted a design. AS-90 was there though.

[adeptitus]

Egypt also could have no interests to be pressed by a embargo of US spare parts (for example: look to Venezuela) - so to be independence, they should look for other contractors and liczence production to;
the next export to Egypt (and licenc after some years) could be the FC-1/JF-17 MULTIROLE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

There's a decent sized market out there for nations looking to replace their old MiGs and Mirages. For an example, Egypt has over 700 J-6/MiG-19, J-7/MiG-21, Mirage V, and F-4E's.

The problem that FC-1 is that the plane is new and not considered mature technology. You'd also face stiff competition from other countries, such as US F-16, Russia's MiG-29, Su-27/30, France's Mirage-2000, and even Sweden's Gripen. Sweden offers a lease if you're on a tight budget.

In case of Africa, countries like Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, & Angola already operate Su-27's or MiG-29's. It'd be very difficult for the FC-1 to compete against Russian combat aircraft, plus the Russians are not likely to allow re-export of RD-93 power plants that'd cut into their own export sales.

[tphuang]

There's a decent sized market out there for nations looking to replace their old MiGs and Mirages. For an example, Egypt has over 700 J-6/MiG-19, J-7/MiG-21, Mirage V, and F-4E's.

The problem that FC-1 is that the plane is new and not considered mature technology. You'd also face stiff competition from other countries, such as US F-16, Russia's MiG-29, Su-27/30, France's Mirage-2000, and even Sweden's Gripen. Sweden offers a lease if you're on a tight budget.

In case of Africa, countries like Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, & Angola already operate Su-27's or MiG-29's. It'd be very difficult for the FC-1 to compete against Russian combat aircraft, plus the Russians are not likely to allow re-export of RD-93 power plants that'd cut into their own export sales.
WS-13 will be available in a couple of years.

[sino52C]

However, the FC-1 may still be rejected since it is not combat proven or mature enough. Perhaps people still don't trust Chinese designed planes.

[MIGleader]

china needs to prove it somehow...maybe since it's forbidden to export it's rd-93 engine to pakistan, it should fing an alternative while using the engines to power 100 indegedous fc-17s. then use it aginst the cvbg's super hornets. if they can get a few kills and come out with only small losses, its definitly worth it.

[Chairman Hu]

Wow now we have another problem, seriously, wonder China is going to replace the RD-93 with? Anyone got any suggestions?

[MIGleader]

an indegedous copy?(pretty easy)

a down graded ws-10(might take some work)

some european engine, possibly france.(pretty easy too, no one cares about the embargo.)

[Chairman Hu]

isnt the WS-10 a copy of the Al-31F?

Doesnt that mean that the FC-1 will be redesigned?

Great...

[MIGleader]

actually, redesigning the airframe will not take too long, especially if you use a smaller french engine. now, you can always bribe putin...

[Chairman Hu]

lol!

Well thats nice, maybe I should stop hating Putin...

Maybe and export engine the Russians can give that is similiar to the RD-93???

and also that wouldn't piss off Russia since Russia declared that they won't export engines to Pakistan as of the Russo-Indian Pact of friendship in the military sector

[tphuang]

isnt the WS-10 a copy of the Al-31F?

Doesnt that mean that the FC-1 will be redesigned?

Great...
WS-10A is actually similar to the engine used for F-16. It was designed from an American engine.

[tphuang]

Wow now we have another problem, seriously, wonder China is going to replace the RD-93 with? Anyone got any suggestions?
WS-13 is the one that is suppose to replace RD-93. It is supposedly a reverse engineered version of RD-93.

[Chairman Hu]

Wait there's a WS-13???

what is WS-11 and 12???

Wow... cool, yay China now saves money

[sumdud]

Egypt can always use a trainer like K-8, no doubt. I don't really see much use for the JL-9. Its abilities are all either already existing in the K-8 or will exist on L-15.

I think of Egypt now like the Pakistan of the 70s and 80s, about to be sanctioned....

WS-13 is not out yet.(If it was, China would not need to use the RD-93.)

That's a pretty wild airforce Egypt have.....

[ahho]

the thing that matters would be price

[Chairman Hu]

The L-15 is excellent, what are its compatablility compare to Western and Russian training fighters?

[swimmerXC]

The L-15 is excellent, what are its compatablility compare to Western and Russian training fighters?

thye hadn't really made it fly yet so we don't know the final specs, i think will be something like the AMX class

[tphuang]

thye hadn't really made it fly yet so we don't know the final specs, i think will be something like the AMX class
it definitely won't be as sweet as that new South Korean trainer. Still, I'm hoping for the best.

[dodler]

Although data is still scarce (still in testing), one could infer that the performance of the L-15 will be similiar to that of the Yakovlev 130 or Aermachhi 346. All three share a common design heritage, which is reflected in there physical appearrance.

[MIGleader]

the thing looks like it can be better than the sk trainer. two engines...