Chinese LACM

[Eurofighter]

I've one question concerning LACMs the PLA is about to deploy or even already deploying. what are exactly the specs on that thing? for example what are the ranges of the LACMs 200km? 300km? 1000+km? And what should be their accuracy? and on what platforms will it be operational in let's say 2010? thanks a bunch!

[Gollevainen]

First as this is a missile topic i'll move it to airforce forum (everything that leaves the ground is either naval or airwarfare and should belong to the dedicated place)

but to the point. Ansewring to that question is extremely hard couse we (and by "we" i mean the whole wide range of armchair military masterminds outside chinese missiledeveloping industry) honestly know so little about chinese cruise missiles. So giving we can only anwser to your questions by assumptions and speculations. But i'll try to give my toughts and please feel free to add and make corrections if you have more additional info...or if your own specualtions and obinios varies from mine...

what are exactly the specs on that thing?

No one really knows, even the proper desingnation is misty as Yj-62/63, C-805, HN-5 and YJ-12 have all come agross when mentioning chinese new LACM. But most likely the name is Yj-62 and it refers to this missile:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1518/20057619461106lk.jpg

From here it can be roughly esitimated that missile is somewhat similar size to Tomahawk and Kh-55 but more accurate estimation is almoust impossiple to make.

for example what are the ranges of the LACMs 200km? 300km? 1000+km?

That is also hard to say but lot is to do whit the engine. If it is a turbojet powered as i strongly belive then the range is less than 1000 km mayby more close to 500 km. Over 1,000 km range LACMs, both Tomahawk and Kh-55 have a turbofan engine and i strongly doupt that china is able to produce an indegenious turbofan for cruisemissile size. Other LACMs like 3M-14E and the pakistanese Babur have a turbojet engines and 300-500 km range.

and on what platforms will it be operational in let's say 2010?

The most likely platforms will be the 052C whit theyr mysterious launching cannisters. Also i think that china is going similar ways as others and some sort of submarine launched version is in development (or gould be that the missile is desinged to be sublaunched from the begining) Tough the resent gossips about KluB-S aqustions for the Kilos speaks against this chinese missile. Wheter it will be in service 2010, certainly as the speed of getting these new chinese military systems operational have proved.

[Eurofighter]

right you are Gollevainen, next time I'll choose the forum more carefully :D

too bad so little is known about this PLA LACM.....It is definately a kickass thought to think that China now also posseses the precision strike capability by LACMs....I just love to see some credible counter weight to the US domination.

[adeptitus]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3833.html

China New Strategic Cruise Missiles: From the Land, Sea and Air


On April 24 a Taiwan intelligence source disclosed [1] what has now been expected for several years: in 2005 the People Liberation Army (PLA) will begin to deploy the first versions of its new 1,000km+ range subsonic-speed strategic land attack cruise missile (LACM). For the PLA both the development of long-range LACMs and defense against U.S. LACMs have been a very high priority. In development since the 1970s, China new LACM is expected to approximate the performance and tactical flexibility of the U.S. RGM/UGM-109 TOMAHAWK and eventually will eventually be fielded in ground, submarine, ship and air launched versions. This means a new stage of power-projection for the PLAlobal non-nuclear strike.


(go to above URL for full document)

[vincelee]

China has already produced a mini turbofan.

[Eurofighter]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3833.html

On April 24 a Taiwan intelligence source disclosed [1] what has now been expected for several years: in 2005 the People Liberation Army (PLA) will begin to deploy the first versions of its new 1,000km+ range subsonic-speed strategic land attack cruise missile (LACM).

(go to above URL for full document)

so if china already have a 1000+km LACM, then what would be the accuracy of this missile? (i donno nothing about the RGM/UGM-109 TOMAHAWK, so couldn't draw the conclusion myself :o )

[adeptitus]

so if china already have a 1000+km LACM, then what would be the accuracy of this missile? (i donno nothing about the RGM/UGM-109 TOMAHAWK, so couldn't draw the conclusion myself :o )

I think that depends on the target.

Against a large stationary target, you can simply program the cruise missile for pre-set flight path (with GPS), then use digital imaging for terminal guidance. Tomahawks claim 10m CEP against large stationary targets.

Both the PRC and ROC have developed LACM's with 1,000 km range. I donno what their true accuracy rate is, but can guess that against a stationary building that cannot grow legs and walk away, it'd prolly have a fairly good CEP.

[Gollevainen]

China has already produced a mini turbofan.

it has? is there any solid facts proving your statement? If there is and china truly have produced turbofan suitable for missiles then my estimations of the range was too low. Perhaps nearer to 1000km range could be achived then tough we must remember that engine type isent the sole factor when range is considered...and this is all only if there really is an turbofan....

[MIGleader]

its accuracy depends what the chinhese are using for guidance. im guessing varients now are using inertial+gps, but the gps may be replaced by gllileo in the future.
i would sy the mislle can hit withing 5-10 feet of the target

[tphuang]

the turbo fan for missiles is WS-500, I believe, you just need to check the pla ac engine thread in CDF.

For information on LACM, check out Richard Fisher's article, he is a long time observer of PLA.
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.71/pub_detail.asp

[Gollevainen]

I believe, you just need to check the pla ac engine thread in CDF.

Perhaps i will, but lets all remember that information coming form some forum isen't adequate source, anyone can say anything in internet forums, but i'll search it thru and make my own judgements...

[tphuang]

Perhaps i will, but lets all remember that information coming form some forum isen't adequate source, anyone can say anything in internet forums, but i'll search it thru and make my own judgements...
that's true with all Chinese platforms. But it does talk about WS-500 though, although the sources are in Chinese.

[Gollevainen]

that's true with all Chinese platforms. But it does talk about WS-500 though, although the sources are in Chinese.

thats the proplem, i dont understand any chinese and my computer doesen't support the chinese writting system so i'm not able to us the translator tools...But yeas i saw the WS-500 being mentioned and findout also some additional info about WS-6 and so on...but perhaps someone chinese knowing could translate some of those articles????

[tphuang]

Just thought I ran into an interesting article on Chinese LACM:
http://jczs.sina.com.cn/2005-08-06/0922310977.html
Especially the part on the HN long range LACMs:

　　☆ 中国红鸟家族

　　美国《军事评论》2004年10月报道，中国从1977年开始开发代号X-600项目。1985年对一个小型涡轮风扇发动机进行了测试。第一种射程在600公里的巡航导弹于1992 年服役，这种导弹被命名为红鸟1号(HN-1)，它和俄 Kh-55导弹的外观相似。目前，红鸟系列已经发展到红鸟3号，射程增加到由最初的600公里增加到3000公里 。目前中国可能还正在研制红鸟2000，射程估计已经达到4000公里。性能可与美国的战斧一 较高下。

　　红鸟1号 HN1即红鸟1装备型，分为陆射型(HN-1A，射程600公里)与空射型(HN-1B，射程650公里)。1988年进行第一次低空掠面导弹试验， 1992年装备部队。红鸟1外形与俄国的Kh-55相近，具有两个平直可后折的机翼，可折立尾，水平尾翼在弹体尾部。可携带1枚300至400公斤的传统 弹头或九千吨当量威力的核弹头，其导引方式采用中段惯性导引(INS)、全球定位系统(GPS)、地子地图 (1994型)，并运用电视照相装置标定与进行目标修正(1994夜间型)，在能见度极差状况下，命中圆概 率误差为5米，但这种说法可能过于乐观。无线电高度表可以控制导弹在20米高度飞行。发动机装在尾部，弹体 下方进气。该导弹长6.4米，翼展3米，直径0.520米，重1400公斤，弹头重300到400公斤。速 度0.75马赫，巡航高度为20至6000米。中国轰-6D飞机可配两枚该型导弹巡航。

　　红鸟2号分为陆射型(HN-2A/B，射程1800)与潜射型(HN-2C，射程1400公里)，其导引方式与红鸟1号相同，其潜射型配备于039型潜舰，并可以装置于该潜舰的 533毫米鱼雷管上，以垂直方式发射。该型导弹于制导方式与红鸟1号基本相同，理想精度可达3米，速度0. 9马赫，巡航高度为15至 7000米。全重1400公斤。1996年装备军队。

　　红鸟3号分为陆射型(HN-3A)、舰射(潜射)型(HN-3B)和空射型(HN-3C)，其射程介于2000至3000公里。速度0.9马赫，巡航高度10至 8000米。全重1400公斤。制导与红鸟2号相同，精度有所提高，圆概率误差在2米＋/-30%。1998年部队验证并少量装备。据信解放军可能将潜射型装备于093核动力攻击潜舰上，空射型以歼 轰-7、歼-8IIM及歼-11型(苏-27)为发射平台。

　　红鸟2000 最新的一种HN2000型尾段超音速隐身巡航导弹正在研制中。该型导弹可能会采用地球高清晰全数字地图、多 种接口API模块以及中国去年联网的北斗导航卫星系统，估计射程增加到4000公里，可满足全 球攻击能力。

[MIGleader]

nice info. finally some decent info on range and accuracy of the missle. unfortunatly, not everyone in the forum reads chinese.

[tphuang]

alright, let's try this again.
HN1 - X600 - range = 600 KM for Land version and 650 for air version. Entered service in 1992. uses INS and GPS and land navigation? speed mach 0.75, cruise height 20m to 6 KM, weight 1400 KG. lanuched with H-6D.

HN2 - similar to above, except with HN-2C for submarine launched version. A/B range is 1800KM, C range is 1400KM. fitted onto 039 sub. speed mach0.9, cruise height 15 m to 7 KM, weight 1400KG, entered service in 1996.

HN3 - A - land, B - sub, C- air-launched, 2000 to 3000 KM range, speed = mach0.9, cruise height 10 to 8KM, weight 1400Kg, More accurate than HN2. the error should be within 2 meter+/-30%? small number equipped in 1998. Should be equipped on 093, JH-7A, J-8IIM, J-11

HN-2000 - use Beidou satellites (I guess one of the possible navigation systems), range increased to 4000KM.

[sumdud]

I thought this was the YJ-62:
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/9402/h6210wi.jpg

China do have a mini-turbojet.
That's what powers the C-802, HY-2A, and C-401.

And I doubt the thing is underpowered for the totally-new/Soviet missile. (HN-5?)

Range: 300km? 500km?

[tphuang]

YJ-62, most likely 300KM+. The export version is 280Km, but that is probably more due to the MTCR. The air launched one should also add abou 40KM to the range. btw, can we combine the thread that I opened in the general forum with this one? I'm sorry about not realizing there is already one open.

[sumdud]

Here.
Merged.

Look up to Post #14 please.