What is this ? Next-gen Fighter for PLAAF ??

[Su-27 Pilot]

I have no idea.......http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2005-10-08/20634.htm
http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2005-09-11/19523.htm

[EternalVigil]

Raptor rip off photo shop job.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Raptor rip off photo shop job.
Every think of PLAAF advancements in Aerial stealth technology ?

[Su-27 Pilot]

I have no idea.......http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2005-10-08/20634.htm
http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2005-09-11/19523.htm

According to the website info those will be the next gen frontline fighters for the PLAFF.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Other than the stealth feature and the tail, it doesn't look very much like the F-22 at all. It resembes a F/A-18 as much as an F-22: look at the area between its wings and intake.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Other than the stealth feature and the tail, it doesn't look very much like the F-22 at all. It resembes a F/A-18 as much as an F-22: look at the area between its wings and intake.

Battlefield 2 has the Su-30, but they put J-10s to count the F-15s and F-35s.
What happened to the Su-27s ?

[MIGleader]

those things are basicly f-22/f-18 rip offs. there are more pics of j-xx, which usually are jsf rip offs or mig 144 rip offs.
there is a pic of a design of the j-xx in sinodefence. it looks alot like those concepts.
i would hope the pla has made some decent progress on airframe design. theyv had the project for many years now...

[tphuang]

let's see:
J-10 entered wind tunnel testing in 1993 and didn't get a prototype until 1998.

According to JDW, J-xx entered wind tunnel testing in 2003. If we use J-10's timeline, then you are looking at first prototype in 2008, pre-production in 2012 and entering service in 2015.

[Mao23]

the j-xx shares some design traits with F/A-22 "Raptor" such as the internal carriage of its weapons. and can we really wait that long for the j-xx. its estimated that war will break out in 2020 and by then how many advancement could have been made. also how about the raptor. it would be a lot better than it is now.

[Red not Dead]

Could be also a further upgrade for the PaK-Fa's little brother the LFF (iranians have the Shafagh with similar layout) Could also be a further design step on the already dead S 54/55.

[EternalVigil]

Every think of PLAAF advancements in Aerial stealth technology ?




Well when the nosecone angles and shape, the engines and its directional fins, the canopy, the wings and tailfins look just like the F22. Then yes I think its someone that used the F22 and to some extent the F18 to try and make a concept photoshop craft. Also known as a rip off. :)

[MIGleader]

well, the design looks ok. its more curved than an f-22, doesnt have diamond wings, and has different tail fins.

[Wingman]

Those pics are more fantasy than anything. Just computer graphics. Nobody knows what exactly the PLAAF is going to make next and the PLAAF is not going to tell anyone either.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Those pics are more fantasy than anything. Just computer graphics. Nobody knows what exactly the PLAAF is going to make next and the PLAAF is not going to tell anyone either.

Check the sinodefence main site for the future PLAAF frontline fighter drawings. Looks pretty close to me.

[muyang523]

New J-xx
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/fighter/XXJ3.jpg
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/fighter/XXJ.jpg
http://www.lyshtw.com/chinaimg/imglib/china/air/fighter/J12fancy/004.JPG

The Oringinal J-12 fighter is the first jet fighter designed and produced all by Chinese technology itself. It is similar to J-7.

http://jiatelin.jschina.com.cn/pla/gfx/j12/j12_3v.jpg

[muyang523]

I heard that they were developing 2 new fighters more advance than Ef-2000 and Rafale, but still inferior to F-22. It is speculated that 601 Institute has been working on designs based on conventional layout(J-13?)and 611 Institute has been working on designs based on canard/tailless delta wing (J-12?)

From http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm: "All designs are expected to feature an internal weapon bay to reduce RCS. So far it is still unclear whether the prototype will be able to fly in the next 5-7 years if everything goes smoothly. It has been rumored that J-12 would be powered by two 8,500kg/RD-33 class "medium thrust" turbofan engines with trust-vectoring nozzles to fullfill its high maneuverability requirement. A prototype of the trust-vectoring nozzle was displayed at 2002 Zhuhai Airshow by China Aeronautical Establishment/606 Institute in 2000. Consequently J-12 would have a 10t empty weight and a 15t normal TO weight, making it a medium weight fighter. On the other hand, J-13 might be powered by more powerful 12,500kg/AL-31F class "high thrust" turbofan engines which results in a normal TO weight exceeding 20t, making it a true heavy weight fighter. Whatever design XXJ will incoporate an advanced FBW system based upon the Active Control Technology developed by 601 Institute and tested on its J-8IIACT technology demonstrator. Its fire-control radar could feature an active phased array (Type 1475/KLJ5?). Russian assistance in this project has been anticipated too in terms of softwore support for calculating the RCS of various designs. The overall performance of XXJ is thought to be superior to EF-2000 and Rafale (stealth & agility) but still inferior to F/A-22 "(electronics & supercruise).



J-12
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/fighter/J-12.jpg
J-13
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/fighter/New-93.jpg
*Remember all of these are artist's pictures.

[tphuang]

It's a little confusing what's going on right now. My feeling is that the twin-engined J-10 is CAC's next-generation fighter, probably has two RD-93/WS-10A engines, maybe upgraded to RD-333 in the future? Whereas, SAC is making a heavy fighter with two AL-41F/WS-14 engines.

[ahho]

It's a little confusing what's going on right now. My feeling is that the twin-engined J-10 is CAC's next-generation fighter, probably has two RD-93/WS-10A engines, maybe upgraded to RD-333 in the future? Whereas, SAC is making a heavy fighter with two AL-41F/WS-14 engines.

well i've been missing out alot and i am wondering is the al-41f turbofan or jet and is it a development between russia and china or just russia

[muyang523]

I think J-12 kinda looks like J-10. Maybe it's J-10C

[ger_mark]

how can you say it will be more agis then ef2000 ?
also ef is the only plane wich reaches f22's electronics plus very strong engines
and from 2008 on the eurofighter will recive 3d vetor thrust control (f22 only has 2d)

http://entity38.de/aeronews/03-09/X31_totale.jpg

[MIGleader]

germark, we know that you are very nationalistic. but the ef2000 was designed to counter the latest su-sieries. the chinese will obviouly strive to something more f-22 level, with steath. which the ef2000 doesnt have.

[ger_mark]

no he doesnt has stealth but with its radars it can detect stealth planes
so that cant be the point

the harrier was designed for ww3 in case they dont have any more airports, look what he is doing today

[MIGleader]

no he doesnt has stealth but with its radars it can detect stealth planes
so that cant be the point

the harrier was designed for ww3 in case they dont have any more airports, look what he is doing today

woah, work on that english. like in german, english has its pronouns, and u definitly dont call an airplan a "he"

no, eurofighter radar cant see stelth planes, only ground radar can at the moment. no stealth=easy detection

[ger_mark]

The aircraft is equipped with a CAPTOR (ECR 90) multi-mode X-band pulse Doppler radar, developed by the Euroradar consortium. The multi-mode radar has three processing channels. The third channel is used for jammer classification, interference blanking and sidelobe nulling. Euroradar is led by Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems, with Indra of Spain, FIAR of Italy and EADS Defence Electronics of Germany.

The PIRATE (Passive Infra-Red Airborne Track Equipment) is mounted on the port side of the fuselage, forward of the windscreen. PIRATE has been developed by the EUROFIRST consortium which comprises Galileo Avionica (FIAR) of Italy (lead contractor), Thales Optronics of the UK (system technical authority) and Tecnobit of Spain. PIRATE operates in both 3-5 and 8-11 micron spectral bands. When used with the radar in an air-to-air role, it functions as an Infrared Search and Track system (IRST), providing passive target detection and tracking. In an air-to-surface role, it performs multiple target acquisition and identification, as well as providing a navigation and landing aid. PIRATE provides a steerable image to the pilot's helmet-mounted display.


also notable the electronic countermeasure system can detect enemy planes and missiles as well and autonomic


PS: and german is much higher develloped language then english btw :D

[tphuang]

don't diss EF2000. This thing is a beast. It is probably the only fighter that I would dare to throw out in combat against F-22 right now. The only thing it really lacks is stealth. There were whispers that EF2000 managed to detect F-22 from 80KM out or something like that. Hard to believe, but I think if J-xx can be better than EF2000, then it has already done a very good job.

Personally, I think J-10C is J-12. It will probably have TVC nozzle + PAR radar and stealth features. It probably won't have supercruise, but it's already very maneuverable.

My guess is that J-12 will be better than Rafale and the best flankers, but probably not as good as EF-2000.

Hopefully, J-14 will probably be on the same level as PAK-FA and below F-22, hopefully above F-35 (although more likely to be on the same level as F-35).

[chakos]

Just a thought on the F-22

I would have to believe that the F-22 has to be the most overated fighter that i have ever seen. Some of its key features are in real terms useless in the real world. I think that way too much money has been spent on a fighter that really only does one thing well, but not well enough to even remotelly justify its cost. Let me explain

Supercruise
Has it ever occured to anyone that an aircraft that claims to be 'stealth' would find it useless to cruise along at supersonic speeds... The reason for this is that a supersonic fighter, regardless of its stealth capability makes a pretty bloddy big impression when its breaking the sound barrier. In real terms supercruise would only ever be used in training and in the manufactureres pamphlets. In the real world it would operate subsonically like most aircraft and only resort to supersonic speeds to either get into or out of action in a hurry.

Stealth Ability
The problem with stealth fighters is that they are designed to not return radar reflections from below them (i.e. ground based radars). This is all well and good when fighting against a 3rd world force such as Iraq or the like, but against a powerful country equipped with AWACS then its not always guaranteed that the powerfull radars will be beneath your aircraft. As well as this the Mig-29 and Su-27/30/32/34/35/37 etc. range of aircraft are fitted with powerfull IRST systems which allow them to search for infa-red signals out to 120km's... no matter how stealthy a plane is it will ALWAYS be hotter than the surrounding athmosphere, therefore it will be in just as much danger against a plane fitted with an AA-11/IRST combination as a J7 or a mig-19 for that matter...

actually, it would be in more trouble than a J7 or a mig-19 because an F-22 CANNOT manouver on par with either a lightweight fighter nor a supermanuevarable russian/chinese sukhoi. It is the same style of fighter as a Mig-31, an F-15 and a Tornado ADV, It is a large heavy advanced fighter designed to kill at long range, not to mix it in with the lighweights, a lesson learned in Vietnam by the American Phantom pilots.

So before we all go on about this aircraft like it is god-with-wings lets consider how truly effective its so called advantages are.

Oh... one last thing... the Russians used the paramaters and information about the stealth shootdown in its latest S-300PMU software packages... The same S-300PMU sold to China... Russians are neither dumb or slow, they have NEVER been beaten in a war in the last 200 years ( a real war... not afghanistan or the WW1 debacle where they had one gun per 3/4 men)

[Red not Dead]

also notable the electronic countermeasure system can detect enemy planes and missiles as well and autonomic


PS: and german is much higher develloped language then english btw :D

Yup that's why everyone hetes to speak it (it's way too difficult compared to Unle Sam's peasant dialect).

Anyway the EF has still to show it's capabilities in any kind of live engagement (no?) but no one is dissmissing it. Though it's price is.

[MIGleader]

germans a great languages. it has its comlicatons, but works fine.

the f-22 is really overrated. hms? there about 20 years to late.
thermal sensors? 20 years too late again.
2-d tvc? about 10 years behind, and not even 3-d
most laughable of all, it only has 8 missles!!!!

[Gauntlet]

which would most probarly be enough for its missions...

AFAIK, the Flanker-Bs/J-11 only has 11...its not that a big difference...

[crazyinsane105]

which would most probarly be enough for its missions...

AFAIK, the Flanker-Bs/J-11 only has 11...its not that a big difference...

The Su-37's can carry about 14 AAM with 8000kg of ground ordanance. This means that the Terminator can carry MUCH MORE than the Raptor and if 3-D TVC engines are installed, it can give the Raptor one hell of a fight (in a dogfight, in BVR the Terminator will go down).

[Gauntlet]

The Su-37's can carry about 14 AAM with 8000kg of ground ordanance. This means that the Terminator can carry MUCH MORE than the Raptor and if 3-D TVC engines are installed, it can give the Raptor one hell of a fight (in a dogfight, in BVR the Terminator will go down).
I said a Flanker-B, not a Flanker-E...;)

I used those as an example, since I think that is what the PLAAF is operating with...unless they bought the Flanker-Es yesterday, that is.

[MIGleader]

which would most probarly be enough for its missions...

AFAIK, the Flanker-Bs/J-11 only has 11...its not that a big difference...

nah, flanker b has ten hardpoints. superflanker has an appaling 14 points, as does the su-35.
crazyinsane, the su-37 already has 3-d engines.

[Sea Dog]

I thought the Su-35 could carry up to 18 air-to-air missiles. Well at any rate, these later model Sukhoi jets are very capable fighter aircraft. I don't care what kind of engines they have, they are insanely maneuvarable.

[muyang523]

What about Rafale it can carry payloads over nine tons on 14 hardpoints for the Air Force version, and 13 for the naval version. The range of weapons includes: Mica, Magic, Sidewinder, ASRAAM and AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; Apache, AS30L, ALARM, HARM, Maverick and PGM100 air-to-ground missiles; and Exocet/AM39, Penguin 3 and Harpoon anti-ship missiles. For a strategic mission the Rafale can deliver the MBDA (formerly Aerospatiale) ASMP standoff nuclear missile. In December 2004, the MBDA Storm Shadow / Scalp EG stand-off cruise missile was qualified on the Rafale. Is that more capable than EF-2000?

[BrotherofSnake]

You can mount 8 AMRAAMs underneath the Raptor's wings with 4 external harpoints, so that gives the Raptor 14 missiles.

[Longaxe]

That kills the Raptors main advantage its stealth, so it will never be done. 8 missiles is more then enough for air-to-air.

[tphuang]

what the heck? why would you even need 14 hard points? 11 hard points for 8 AAMs is plenty. a good setup would be:
3 bombs
2 SRAAM
6 MRAAM

As for F-22's tvc, it doesn't need 3-D tvc, it's already insanely manuverable.

F-22 would kill any flanker, including su-35bm. There is no way the flanker can match the stealth + radar of F-22. And R-77 is not near the capability of AIM-120C

[Gauntlet]

I thought the Su-35 could carry up to 18 air-to-air missiles.
Thats because of they can maybe carry smaller Aphid and Archer's two on each of the heaviest hardpoints? Or?

[Su-27 Pilot]

The Su-37's can carry about 14 AAM with 8000kg of ground ordanance. This means that the Terminator can carry MUCH MORE than the Raptor and if 3-D TVC engines are installed, it can give the Raptor one hell of a fight (in a dogfight, in BVR the Terminator will go down).

Can you post a complete specs about a comparison chart betweeen the Su-27s and the Su-37s.

[Knarfo]

actually, it would be in more trouble than a J7 or a mig-19 because an F-22 CANNOT manouver on par with either a lightweight fighter nor a supermanuevarable russian/chinese sukhoi. It is the same style of fighter as a Mig-31, an F-15 and a Tornado ADV, It is a large heavy advanced fighter designed to kill at long range, not to mix it in with the lighweights, a lesson learned in Vietnam by the American Phantom pilots.


Mig-31, F-15 and Tornado adv are not the same style. One of them is way more manoueverable than the other two.

The F-22 is no slouch when it comes down to manouverabilty. High- thrust, big wing and thrust vectoring. Combing this with stealth, probably the most advanced radar, and probably the most advanced ECM and EW suite on any current and near term fighter aircraft. It is a winner if the gizmos works anywhere nearly as good as its claimed

[MIGleader]

You can mount 8 AMRAAMs underneath the Raptor's wings with 4 external harpoints, so that gives the Raptor 14 more than missiles.

no u cant. the hard points actually have to be welded on first. and that kills the raptors stealth, supercruise, and manuverability.

Can you post a complete specs about a comparison chart betweeen the Su-27s and the Su-37s.

ah, there not much different.
the su-37 feature ths al-31fn 3-d thrust vector rather than the regular al-31. it has canards, an improved zhuk radar(100km range), and a way more advanced avionics suite.

[Knarfo]

The Su-37's can carry about 14 AAM with 8000kg of ground ordanance. This means that the Terminator can carry MUCH MORE than the Raptor and if 3-D TVC engines are installed, it can give the Raptor one hell of a fight (in a dogfight, in BVR the Terminator will go down).

and just what do you think all that ordenance will do to preformance. speed, range, agility???

[EternalVigil]

Supercruise is to increase range and to have less IR than afterburners. The speed of an F22 with full afterburners on is still classified.

[crazyinsane105]

and just what do you think all that ordenance will do to preformance. speed, range, agility???

That is why if an Su-37 is fully loaded and is on a strike mission, it should always have two interceptors ready to protect it.

[IDonT]

That is why if an Su-37 is fully loaded and is on a strike mission, it should always have two interceptors ready to protect it.


Carrying 14 AAM missiles has got to degrade performance. I mean the weight and drag alone on those missiles will be great.

[walter]

There were whispers that EF2000 managed to detect F-22 from 80KM out or something like that.

that is hard to believe. have they even met each other? Both types are undergoing operational evaluation in their respective countries--to my knowledge neither the f-22 or typhoon have crossed the atlantic.


Just a thought on the F-22

I would have to believe that the F-22 has to be the most overated fighter that i have ever seen. Some of its key features are in real terms useless in the real world. I think that way too much money has been spent on a fighter that really only does one thing well, but not well enough to even remotelly justify its cost. Let me explain

Supercruise
Has it ever occured to anyone that an aircraft that claims to be 'stealth' would find it useless to cruise along at supersonic speeds... The reason for this is that a supersonic fighter, regardless of its stealth capability makes a pretty bloddy big impression when its breaking the sound barrier. In real terms supercruise would only ever be used in training and in the manufactureres pamphlets. In the real world it would operate subsonically like most aircraft and only resort to supersonic speeds to either get into or out of action in a hurry.

Stealth Ability
The problem with stealth fighters is that they are designed to not return radar reflections from below them (i.e. ground based radars). This is all well and good when fighting against a 3rd world force such as Iraq or the like, but against a powerful country equipped with AWACS then its not always guaranteed that the powerfull radars will be beneath your aircraft. As well as this the Mig-29 and Su-27/30/32/34/35/37 etc. range of aircraft are fitted with powerfull IRST systems which allow them to search for infa-red signals out to 120km's... no matter how stealthy a plane is it will ALWAYS be hotter than the surrounding athmosphere, therefore it will be in just as much danger against a plane fitted with an AA-11/IRST combination as a J7 or a mig-19 for that matter...

actually, it would be in more trouble than a J7 or a mig-19 because an F-22 CANNOT manouver on par with either a lightweight fighter nor a supermanuevarable russian/chinese sukhoi. It is the same style of fighter as a Mig-31, an F-15 and a Tornado ADV, It is a large heavy advanced fighter designed to kill at long range, not to mix it in with the lighweights, a lesson learned in Vietnam by the American Phantom pilots.

So before we all go on about this aircraft like it is god-with-wings lets consider how truly effective its so called advantages are.

Oh... one last thing... the Russians used the paramaters and information about the stealth shootdown in its latest S-300PMU software packages... The same S-300PMU sold to China... Russians are neither dumb or slow, they have NEVER been beaten in a war in the last 200 years ( a real war... not afghanistan or the WW1 debacle where they had one gun per 3/4 men)


someone already adressed the supercruise issue--it is a plus no matter how you look at it, and nobody claimed it would continuosly operate in supercruise.

as to stealth, it is true the RCS is minimal from infront of and below the plane, but the F-22's signature is tiny no matter what angle you look at it from. besides that, which AWACS operate above 50000 ft.? The F-22 will be operating from these altitudes, so no AWACS would likely ever be above it.

Maybe some people do overrate it, but it is still light years ahead of anything else. It's only true drawback in my eyes is price.

[MIGleader]

Carrying 14 AAM missiles has got to degrade performance. I mean the weight and drag alone on those missiles will be great.

chinese flankers carry standard 4 alamos and 2 archers.
thats only six missles

the extra pylons on the su-35 are meant to handle atg munitions, in which the fighter would be escorted.

if the f-22 flys at 50000 feet, then theirs no point in worrying about it. it cant use a jdam from suich a height, and if you dont dsend fighters after it, you lose nothing. the f-22 can be still targeted by sams.

[tphuang]

that is hard to believe. have they even met each other? Both types are undergoing operational evaluation in their respective countries--to my knowledge neither the f-22 or typhoon have crossed the atlantic.
Eurofighter has crossed the atlantic numerous times. It has been flown by American pilots. Last year, Eurofighter defeated 2 F-15Es in a mock fight I guess.

I'm not saying F-22 isn't great, but that typhoon is very very good. Even the only guy who flown both F-22 and typhoon has said so.

[sino52C]

Second drawback of F-22: the US is purchasing 200 of them.

Tyhpoons may be a better plane to fly since it has a more traditional design as opposed to the F-22, which will be radically different than anything else. Some things in the F-22 has to be sacrifised, such as a more limited internal weapons stowage.

[EternalVigil]

Considering that the RAF already fly in formation with the F-22 and F-15 sqaudrons, the US doesnt have to worry about the ET(eurofighter typhoon). The F22 is a better plane for air dominance but the ET is the second best plane on the planet right now. Imagine a USAF F22 wing and a RAF ET wing attacking. Would be painful to the person on the buisness end. I think I already posted a photo I took at Nellis AFB with the F22 and a RAF ET on the same runway getting ready to train together. I reposted the link for people who havent seen it.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/tbirdbcast/efraptor.jpg

[EternalVigil]

Second drawback of F-22: the US is purchasing 200 of them.

Tyhpoons may be a better plane to fly since it has a more traditional design as opposed to the F-22, which will be radically different than anything else. Some things in the F-22 has to be sacrifised, such as a more limited internal weapons stowage.


Congress has a bill in the works to buy more F-22's since they preformed superbly in the latest operational testing. Watch when the defense budget is announced for fiscal year 2007.

[tphuang]

Congress has a bill in the works to buy more F-22's since the preformed superbly in the latest operational testing. Watch when the defense budget is announced for fiscal year 2007.
That would be sick, an overkill. I guess the congress is really buying into this China threat stuff. But yeah, if the European embargo can ever be lifted, China should get the typhoon.

[ReDgUaRd008]

That would be sick, an overkill. I guess the congress is really buying into this China threat stuff. But yeah, if the European embargo can ever be lifted, China should get the typhoon.

Can't the Euro-Fighter is a join project between Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy. Britain won't sell Euro-Fighter because is Britain and US are allies, what US wants Britain will do and what US wants is not for China to get the Euro-Fighter or any tech from Europe.

[Sea Dog]

That would be sick, an overkill. I guess the congress is really buying into this China threat stuff. But yeah, if the European embargo can ever be lifted, China should get the typhoon.

But if China does get the Su-35, it is arguable that it can outclass a Typhoon. Especially if PLAAF can get access to the most capable Russian avionics. And they could get it at a much smaller price tag.

[tphuang]

But if China does get the Su-35, it is arguable that it can outclass a Typhoon. Especially if PLAAF can get access to the most capable Russian avionics. And they could get it at a much smaller price tag.
nah, Typhoon has much better electronics than su-35 and it also has supercruise. If China can get Typhoon, it should. As for the American interference, that would be the biggest stumbling block for sure.

[trkl]

The Su-35bm won't be able match the Typhoon. Typhoons airframe is probably more advanced than the flanker's, but the real advantage of the Typhoon lies in avionics and weapons. In a few years Typhoon will probably have an AESA radar and will use Meteor, ASRAAM, and IRIS-T missiles. The flanker's weapons and avionics just can't compare with that.

[Sea Dog]

nah, Typhoon has much better electronics than su-35 and it also has supercruise. If China can get Typhoon, it should. As for the American interference, that would be the biggest stumbling block for sure.

What type of interference are you referring to? AFAIK, America has nothing to do with Typhoon or Su-35. Or are you generally talking about arms embargo? In that case, yes. The USA can apply pressure not to sell from the Europeans. But nevertheless, Su-35 is top notch. And I think China will be receiving this into their inventory. Isn't this what has been talked about?

[tphuang]

What type of interference are you referring to? AFAIK, America has nothing to do with Typhoon or Su-35. Or are you generally talking about arms embargo? In that case, yes. The USA can apply pressure not to sell to the Europeans. But nevertheless, Su-35 is top notch. And I think China will be receiving this into their inventory. Isn't this what has been talked about?
if China gets to choose from typhoon and su-35, I would choose typhoon anyday of the week. As for the embargo, even when it finishes, I still see the Americans put the press on the Europeans if it tries to sell the typhoon.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

F-22 has TVC.. it is far more manuevable than a J-7 and a Mig-19.

[dodler]

a few comments
The chances of PLAAF being offered the typhoon, are slim to none. Even if the various members of eurofighter agreed to the sale, the pressure from the US not to sell would be enormous. It is also very expensive. But this is all just speculation, until there is some evidence of a typhoon sale it remains fanatsy.
As to the SU-35, or whatever other designations that may be applied, I will consider this a viable option when I see some production SU-35s. The russians have become adept at promoting and selling paper planes (ie the Indian Su-30MKI), that actually still require massive development to become operationally ready. Sticking canards on a plane, and suggesting that it can have this avionics or these engines, does not make it production ready.
This also generally applies to the purchase or production of AL-41 engines in PRC.
IF it (su-35) does become production reality it will be a good choice.

As to the F-22 being overated, well I would be quite willing to take my chances. As more information is released about the F-22, the more it reveals itself as a superb and so far only true 5th gen aircraft. Yes like any platform it has its own inherent strengths and weakness's, but to suggest that it is therefore of low value, may do somethingto reinforce national pride but doesnt help in advancing these debates. and no I am not a Yank.

on this matter the level of discussion sometimes borders on little boys toilet talk. This dick is bigger, longer, fatter , prettier etc, etc, so therefore it is superior to another persons dick. Not only is this logic faulty, as any cassanova knows its not the tool but the skill of the operator that determines its success.
Some seem to confuse conjecture (=educated guess?), with facts. How can you possible rate planes that dont even exist -J-11D?? sorry about the whinge but I often read that this is meant to be a serious forum, so a mature approach may be beneficial to these goals

[Gollevainen]

Thats the spirit, dodler...good post!