future plaaf's flanker upgrade

[MIGleader]

ok, we all know that the su-27s and j-11's are pieces of crap, especially in terms of bvr. what king of upgrades do you guys the plaaf should instal on its flankers to extend their service life? make em realistic(cost, how easy it is to intall...)

i would: fit all existing j-11 and su-27s with canards, and have the russians instal some new hotas style avionics and bars radar.

for all future j-11, i would fit an indegedous radar, possibly with imput from pakistans f-16s, put canards, and fit indegedous avionics to support chinese weapons suites.

stick to flankers! no j-10 or j-xx.

[tphuang]

it'd be quite dangerous to add things to plane's structure. I say just get upgrade the avionics and AAMs. J-11B should be using better avionics and a slightly improved structure already.

[vincelee]

I don't see how you can say flankers updated to use R-77s are crap.

[tphuang]

it's mainly their avionics and the fact that they don't have the canard in su-35

[Vanguard1688]

China's Su-27sk and early J-11s aren't able to fire R-77s

[vincelee]

some, if not all, have been retrofitted to fire the R-77.

[Mao23]

i think that the engine needs to be upgraded for the current one is crapper than the original Su-27SK.

[Gollevainen]

First of all when some topic starts saying that something is "piece of crab" I usually loose all the interest towards it. Althoug many of you are kids, try to still act maturely and best thing to do so is cut out childish language. Anyone saing some system is "piece of crab" looses all his greditability in my eyes...

But to the topic. Su-27 isen't "piece of crab" (or as now on supporting the mature use of english, lets say you ment that Su-27 is uncapaple) at least when comaring to other chinese fighters in use. It's BVR capapility is best of PLAAFs inventory even whitout using the R-77 (Excluding Su-30s but they are basicly the same family, just improved version of it) as the R-27 is superior to any chinese BVR missile in service. But that doesen't mean SU-27 should not be modernised, all planes needs to be modenised after the time is cathing them.

Modernisations differences lots from each others, there can be major modernisation where the whole airframe is partially rebuild and fitted whit new engines and avionics. Or there can be minor modifications wich usually only affects on avionics tough in that way to the weapon delivery capapilityes or even to the manuvrability. As for Chinese Flanker fleet, i would go to the later one as the Su-27 isen't being surpassed in general terms by any major inovation except the F-22 (wich is years and years away from full time operational service). As to boost chinese own aviation technology industry and capapility, i would go for indegenious radar and from there to the ability to use the newest chinese weoponry like SD-10 and C-803 missiles. (yeas a multipurpose capapility would be given tough i'm not sure if china have any radar system to able to do so in the near pipeline...)

But as china have the licence manufacturing faciliatetes, an improved production line should be opened. For my obinion china should no longer manufacture the first generation Flankers nor shift to Russian improved models like Su-35 or Su-37 but developt an own 4.5 half generation fighter based on Flankers airframe. It would require new avionics, (similar that the modernised Flankers would have) new indegenious engine whit better thrust to weight ration than Al-31F, improved airframe whit canards and perhaps redesinged wings. Also more capaple fly-by-fire system would be usefull. Now thats may sound bit farfecthed when taking notice to chinese aviation industrys overall capapilityes, but i bet it is easyer and cost-effective than to produce completely indegenious J-XX wich should be compared to F-22 but will whitout doubt be inferior to it. This J-11M or what ever it should be called would give china back those decades wich would be required to developing 5th generation fighter.

[chinawhite]

Gollevainen.

Applause people.

I couldn't have put it better myself. This forum is so childish. what radar do you like, which plane is better:rolleyes:

Jesus get over it. A few planes arent going to win a war.

And this is from the cream of the crop of this forum.


Back to topic

The Su-27 with any half decent radar could be made into a effective ground attack plane. Large warload + excellent airframe.

BVR hasn't developed to the point where you can fire from 50km and get a 100% chance to hit your target.


How many BVR Kills in Iraq Kosovo? Answer is not many


The PL-12 is a very promising missle for china because it is Produced in china and is able to be used with chinese aircraft.

Any upgrade the J-11 is getting, a must have is ability to fire the PL-12 the future standard PLAAF missle


Most future PLA acquisitions will be joint-development or production rights and will steer away from the off the self purchases.


PS: Would carnards be worth the effort to change the airframe and the adtional cost?

[Lavi]

Well, since there already are Su-27 variants with canards, namely the Su-34, -35 and -37, fitting canards to Chinese Su-27's wouldn't be that much of a problem. Also, today most of the cost when building/upgrading an aircraft comes from r&d costs, and quite a small part from the actuall material and work being done. This means, of course, that the fitting of canards probably would be quite cheap also. Based on these facts I think that canards should be a logical part of any major upgrade program on any PLAAF Su-27, since they're relatively cheap and easy to intsall.

[adeptitus]

ok, we all know that the su-27s and j-11's are pieces of crap, especially in terms of bvr. what king of upgrades do you guys the plaaf should instal on its flankers to extend their service life? make em realistic(cost, how easy it is to intall...)


Su-27SK represents 1970's - 1980's Soviet technology. It's old, but not all your security needs require latest and best military hardware. Vietnam is known to operate 12 Su-27's and 4 Su-30MK2V's, plus numerous MiG-21's and Su-22's. Stationing a squadron of Su-27SK/J-11's in Yunnan would serve as effective deterrant and balance of power vs. Vietnamese AF.

The Russians do have a Su-27M upgrade package:

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/su-27.htm

"Upgrading the Su-27

The Russian Air Force has currently received its first batch of upgraded Su-27s. The air force seems to have settled for the mid-life upgrade offered by KnAAPO which brings the aircraft up to Su-27SM standard. The Su-27SM is equipped with an upgraded fire control system including the improved N001V radar with phased array antenna, which offers improved performance and air-to-surface mode. The new system enables the use of the RVV-AE (R-77) medium range air-to-air missile and a wide selection of guided air-to-surface bombs and missiles. Another heavily updated feature is the cockpit, which is upgraded with three MFD, new HUD, satellite receiver and new communications set. The aircraft's self-defense suite has also been upgraded. A second phase of the upgrade will equip the aircraft with improved variants of the AL-31F. With the new fully digital flight control systems, the aircraft could in theory also be equipped with TVC variants.
The Russian Air Force plans to have the entire fleet upgraded to Su-27SM standard by 2008, but the number of aircraft to be upgraded remains unclear.

The two-seat aircraft will most likely be upgraded to Su-27UBM. Although IAPO offered such an upgrade demonstrated on the Su-30KN, it remains unclear whether the Russian Air Force has opted for this upgrade or plans to have KnAAPO update the two-seaters under a similar program as the Su-27SM.

The Su-27SM is based on earlier proposed upgrades for the Su-27SK export version. China was seen as the premier customer for an upgrade package. The Su-27SMK as it is designated has seen two attempts, with at the basis a different radar system (N001M and N001VEP respectively). However China seems to concentrate on Su-30MKK and upgraded derivatives first and other export customers are also concentrating on expanding their Flanker fleets with newer variants, is most cases preferring two-seat Su-30MK derivatives."

[MIGleader]

im glad you all di not put tvc. tvc is a radical thing to put on an aircraft not designed for it. they are costly and difficult to maintain. canard would help, and im sure the russian would be glad to assist in any design changes. they can also fit on bars.

what sort of radar would you guys use?

[Vanguard1688]

some, if not all, have been retrofitted to fire the R-77.

None of the 76 Su-27sk/ubk are retrofitted

[MIGleader]

as far as i know, arounfd 40 j-11's were retro fitted for r-77

[Knarfo]

Canards and TVC are not so important because the 27 is alrready agile and also because of increasingly highly manouverable missles and HMS. Avionics upgrade and standardisation throughout he Flanker fleet would make more sense. A refuelling probe would be nice too unless they already have it.

[MIGleader]

canards never hurt. they let the su-27s kind of catch up on the mki in manuverability, though no entirely.

since the su-27 is a defense fighter, a refule probe is not so useful.

[tphuang]

Su-27SK represents 1970's - 1980's Soviet technology. It's old, but not all your security needs require latest and best military hardware. Vietnam is known to operate 12 Su-27's and 4 Su-30MK2V's, plus numerous MiG-21's and Su-22's. Stationing a squadron of Su-27SK/J-11's in Yunnan would serve as effective deterrant and balance of power vs. Vietnamese AF.

The Russians do have a Su-27M upgrade package:

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/su-27.htm

"Upgrading the Su-27

The Russian Air Force has currently received its first batch of upgraded Su-27s. The air force seems to have settled for the mid-life upgrade offered by KnAAPO which brings the aircraft up to Su-27SM standard. The Su-27SM is equipped with an upgraded fire control system including the improved N001V radar with phased array antenna, which offers improved performance and air-to-surface mode. The new system enables the use of the RVV-AE (R-77) medium range air-to-air missile and a wide selection of guided air-to-surface bombs and missiles. Another heavily updated feature is the cockpit, which is upgraded with three MFD, new HUD, satellite receiver and new communications set. The aircraft's self-defense suite has also been upgraded. A second phase of the upgrade will equip the aircraft with improved variants of the AL-31F. With the new fully digital flight control systems, the aircraft could in theory also be equipped with TVC variants.
The Russian Air Force plans to have the entire fleet upgraded to Su-27SM standard by 2008, but the number of aircraft to be upgraded remains unclear.

The two-seat aircraft will most likely be upgraded to Su-27UBM. Although IAPO offered such an upgrade demonstrated on the Su-30KN, it remains unclear whether the Russian Air Force has opted for this upgrade or plans to have KnAAPO update the two-seaters under a similar program as the Su-27SM.

The Su-27SM is based on earlier proposed upgrades for the Su-27SK export version. China was seen as the premier customer for an upgrade package. The Su-27SMK as it is designated has seen two attempts, with at the basis a different radar system (N001M and N001VEP respectively). However China seems to concentrate on Su-30MKK and upgraded derivatives first and other export customers are also concentrating on expanding their Flanker fleets with newer variants, is most cases preferring two-seat Su-30MK derivatives."

China has shown zero interest in su-27smk, because it really doesn't meet China's requirement anymore. As far as I know, J-11B should be at least as good as su-27smk, because it has improved radar, cockpit and BVR missile and will be using WS-10A instead of AL-31F. Personally, I would like to see China attempting to upgrade the current su-27 fleet by itself rather than using the $5 million upgrade package offered by the Russians.

[vincelee]

N001V is a PAR? That's news to me.

[chinawhite]

Well, since there already are Su-27 variants with canards, namely the Su-34, -35 and -37, fitting canards to Chinese Su-27's wouldn't be that much of a problem.

Its not easy changing a aircrafts airframe.

Adding Caranrds to a aircraft is not like just bolt on packages you have to physically change the airframe.

Then you would need to re-configure the FBW and need newer avonics.

since they're relatively cheap and easy to intsall.

and where are you basing your information on?

[Lavi]

and where are you basing your information on?

It was just an assumption I made, based on the fact that these are already developed and tested, as compared to developing something from scratch.

[Mr_C]

First of all when some topic starts saying that something is "piece of crab" I usually loose all the interest towards it. Althoug many of you are kids, try to still act maturely and best thing to do so is cut out childish language. Anyone saing some system is "piece of crab" looses all his greditability in my eyes...

But to the topic. Su-27 isen't "piece of crab" (or as now on supporting the mature use of english, lets say you ment that Su-27 is uncapaple) at least when comaring to other chinese fighters in use. It's BVR capapility is best of PLAAFs inventory even whitout using the R-77 (Excluding Su-30s but they are basicly the same family, just improved version of it) as the R-27 is superior to any chinese BVR missile in service. But that doesen't mean SU-27 should not be modernised, all planes needs to be modenised after the time is cathing them.

Modernisations differences lots from each others, there can be major modernisation where the whole airframe is partially rebuild and fitted whit new engines and avionics. Or there can be minor modifications wich usually only affects on avionics tough in that way to the weapon delivery capapilityes or even to the manuvrability. As for Chinese Flanker fleet, i would go to the later one as the Su-27 isen't being surpassed in general terms by any major inovation except the F-22 (wich is years and years away from full time operational service). As to boost chinese own aviation technology industry and capapility, i would go for indegenious radar and from there to the ability to use the newest chinese weoponry like SD-10 and C-803 missiles. (yeas a multipurpose capapility would be given tough i'm not sure if china have any radar system to able to do so in the near pipeline...)

But as china have the licence manufacturing faciliatetes, an improved production line should be opened. For my obinion china should no longer manufacture the first generation Flankers nor shift to Russian improved models like Su-35 or Su-37 but developt an own 4.5 half generation fighter based on Flankers airframe. It would require new avionics, (similar that the modernised Flankers would have) new indegenious engine whit better thrust to weight ration than Al-31F, improved airframe whit canards and perhaps redesinged wings. Also more capaple fly-by-fire system would be usefull. Now thats may sound bit farfecthed when taking notice to chinese aviation industrys overall capapilityes, but i bet it is easyer and cost-effective than to produce completely indegenious J-XX wich should be compared to F-22 but will whitout doubt be inferior to it. This J-11M or what ever it should be called would give china back those decades wich would be required to developing 5th generation fighter.

Yeah just look at the J-7 variants, many people mistakenly analyse the latest J-7 variant as a mere MIG-21 of the 70s. Such an analysis is a grave miscalculation. Also agreed on calling a peice of equipment "a peice of crap". A projectile from a musket will kill u just as effectively as a F1 ball.

[adeptitus]

China has shown zero interest in su-27smk, because it really doesn't meet China's requirement anymore. As far as I know, J-11B should be at least as good as su-27smk, because it has improved radar, cockpit and BVR missile and will be using WS-10A instead of AL-31F. Personally, I would like to see China attempting to upgrade the current su-27 fleet by itself rather than using the $5 million upgrade package offered by the Russians.

I think that Russian upgrade package is probably the result of co-development between Russian, French, and Indian firms. The technology is likely to be mature and ready to deliver. Wouldn't hurt if the PLAAF orders a couple for eval.

[MIGleader]

Its not easy changing a aircrafts airframe.

Adding Caranrds to a aircraft is not like just bolt on packages you have to physically change the airframe.

Then you would need to re-configure the FBW and need newer avonics.



and where are you basing your information on?

reconfigure fbw and avionics? no problem. they part of the upgrade anyways. actually, the avionics get priority, but canards can benifit from it. ever heard of the su-35? just copy its frontal configuration. no to hard.

[tphuang]

I think that Russian upgrade package is probably the result of co-development between Russian, French, and Indian firms. The technology is likely to be mature and ready to deliver. Wouldn't hurt if the PLAAF orders a couple for eval.
I doubt that mki avionics package is offered with su-27smk. The avionics is only supposed to be upgraded to su-30mkk standard, which really isn't all that impressive, if you think about it.

[Chairman Hu]

Carnads will really help, and I agree with MiGLeader here, the Su-35 is based from the 27, and there really isnt much change here, if the frontal part can be copied (i.e elec equip and such are in the same place), just adding a few mil into that and better radar along with it able to use the R-77 is actually a great deal, in fact, it is actually get as much out of it as you can, even if the radar is the BARS, and if it is better/cheaper, replace it, it makes it so much easier to get them into the same abilities as the Su-35

"In this world of warfare, quality beats quantity..." - Adolf Hitler
"So how in the hell am I losing to those Russians!?" - Adolf Hitler

Hitler was high on drugs for the last 10 years of his life, if he was able to realized this, I really don't think we couldn't either

[chinawhite]

reconfigure fbw and avionics? no problem. they part of the upgrade anyways. actually, the avionics get priority, but canards can benifit from it. ever heard of the su-35? just copy its frontal configuration. no to hard.

Where did you get your degree in aircraft production/design?:coffee:

The airframe is pyhiscally different. you have to change the airframe. And with these changes it will distort the airflow and make it unstable.

[MIGleader]

Where did you get your degree in aircraft production/design?:coffee:

The airframe is pyhiscally different. you have to change the airframe. And with these changes it will distort the airflow and make it unstable.
ok, i never got an airframe degree. but changing the ariframe is not too hard. its been proven on the su-33. there will be unstability, but that can be moniterd by an advanced fbw.

[chinawhite]

ok, i never got an airframe degree. but changing the ariframe is not too hard. its been proven on the su-33. there will be unstability, but that can be moniterd by an advanced fbw.

Its been proven on the SU-33?

The su-33 was produced brand new and no add ons. were you planning to bolt it on and see if it works

[MIGleader]

Its been proven on the SU-33?

The su-33 was produced brand new and no add ons. were you planning to bolt it on and see if it works

i meant su-35, but they both feature canards.
pics...
su-35
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/planes/su35_002.jpg

su-27
http://www.telcom.es/~jcastjr/aviones/su-27.jpg

you just need to slighly redesign the front. i never siad bolt em on...

[MadMax]

unstable? the SU series is unstable with or without canards without fbw it would bee imposible to fly the canards make it more unstable and that makes it more manuverable

[chinawhite]

unstable? the SU series is unstable with or without canards without fbw it would bee imposible to fly the canards make it more unstable and that makes it more manuverable

Nope that is not how a unstable airframe works.

It steers the air in different dirctions. while changing the airframe distorts the movement of air



you just need to slighly redesign the front. i never siad bolt em on...[/quote]

THe Su-35s that were built were built NEW not upgrades of other aircraft

[MIGleader]

Nope that is not how a unstable airframe works.

It steers the air in different dirctions. while changing the airframe distorts the movement of air




THe Su-35s that were built were built NEW not upgrades of other aircraft[/QUOTE]

so your telling me they arnt su-27 upgrades?! lol. well, in a sense, they were new aircraft, but by no means a completely novel ort original design. aside from the canards, improved al-31, 4 more wepons pylons, and new cocpit and radar, the plane is 80% su-27. lets not argue. so, why do you think china cant modify the su-27s to feature canards? it may not be easy as boting em on, buy it sure is possible.

[Chairman Hu]

yea know, i gotta agree with MiGLeader...

Just redo the front and add a MUCH more powerful FBW system to balance it out, plus 4 xtra pylons always sound good, the Su-37 carries 14 missile... ai...

Su-35 IS an UPGRADE of the Su-27, it was even designated are the Su-27M

[adeptitus]

yea know, i gotta agree with MiGLeader...
Just redo the front and add a MUCH more powerful FBW system to balance it out, plus 4 xtra pylons always sound good, the Su-37 carries 14 missile... ai...
Su-35 IS an UPGRADE of the Su-27, it was even designated are the Su-27M

If the goal is to arm the plane with more missiles, wouldn't it be easier to just upgrade the pylons to carry multiple missiles each? The outer-wing pylons have low weight limit, but the wing-root ones should do fine with 2 or 3 missiles.

[maddogy4645]

Hi Guys! I've been busy studing for my midterm exams so I was absent from this forum for a while.

I got some questions and a comment:

-The canard upgrades while possible, do not improve the current fleet of Flankers sufficiently to justify their costs. The upgrades should be focused on where they're truly needed, and those are the radars, the precision attack capabilities, and long range AAMs.

-Now that we know that WS-10A is probably ready, will they be actually used on Flankers in the PLAAF? I sense the need to ask the question when I thought about what exactly was stated on the Flanker contracts between China and Russia. Did the Russians permit PLAAF to use indiginous parts? What % of parts can be indiginous? If Russia did permit China, was that because Russia never expected China to indiginously design a AL31 class engine this quick? If China builds more J11s with nearly 100% components, do they need a license from Russia? If this is actually illegal, will China purchase more license or simply ignore the Russian response? Will Russia retaliate by oil embargo on China?

[tphuang]

Hi Guys! I've been busy studing for my midterm exams so I was absent from this forum for a while.

I got some questions and a comment:

-The canard upgrades while possible, do not improve the current fleet of Flankers sufficiently to justify their costs. The upgrades should be focused on where they're truly needed, and those are the radars, the precision attack capabilities, and long range AAMs.

-Now that we know that WS-10A is probably ready, will they be actually used on Flankers in the PLAAF? I sense the need to ask the question when I thought about what exactly was stated on the Flanker contracts between China and Russia. Did the Russians permit PLAAF to use indiginous parts? What % of parts can be indiginous? If Russia did permit China, was that because Russia never expected China to indiginously design a AL31 class engine this quick? If China builds more J11s with nearly 100% components, do they need a license from Russia? If this is actually illegal, will China purchase more license or simply ignore the Russian response? Will Russia retaliate by oil embargo on China?

not sure the legality of contract, but J11B is suppose to be 100% indigenous. I'm sure SAC and Sukhoi worked something out, so Sukhoi still gets a cut out of every J11 being produced.

[chinawhite]

Su-27

Wing Span: 14.70 m
Wing area: 62 m2
Wing Aspect Ratio: 3.5
Length: 21.93 m
Height: 5.93 m
Empty Weight: 22500 kg / 17000 kg
Max.Weight: 30000 kg

Su-35

Wing Span: 15.16 m
Length: 21.96 m
Height: 6.84 m
Wing Area: 62 m2
Empty Weight: 18400 kg
Max.Weight: 34000 kg.

its not just the front bit that is different

so your telling me they arnt su-27 upgrades?! lol. well, in a sense, they were new aircraft, but by no means a completely novel ort original design.

The su-35s that were produced were not upgraded su-27.(this is what you want to do)

They were produced from scratch. Nothing that was old or second hand.


The su-35 is not a upgrade package but a improved/modifed su-27

aside from the canards, improved al-31, 4 more wepons pylons, and new cocpit and radar, the plane is 80% su-27. lets not argue. so, why do you think china cant modify the su-27s to feature canards? it may not be easy as boting em on, buy it sure is possible.

Of cause it is possible but not using the su-35 as a blue-print

[vincelee]

don't you love armchair generals who have never taken an engineering class in their lives? I sure do, for the countless hours of amusement.

[chinawhite]

don't you love armchair generals who have never taken an engineering class in their lives? I sure do, for the countless hours of amusement.

Armchair general?

And who may you be, general:)

[vincelee]

I was actually referring to lil' Miglet, but oh well.

[chinawhite]

I was actually referring to lil' Miglet, but oh well.

I thought you might have been but you didn't put a name with that so i thought is was me

sorry,

:confused:

[MIGleader]

i never said copy the su35!!! all i said was take sme of its features, such as canards, and put them on the su-27s china has. a few inches wont make a big difference....
now, to shed some light
Phazotron Zhuk-PH phased-array radar under development for later use, search range 89 to 132 n miles (165 to 245 km; 102 to 152 miles) in forward sector, 32 n miles (60 km; 37 miles) rearward, with simultaneous tracking of 24 air targets and ripple-fire engagement of six; N014 rearward-facing radar, range approximately 2 n miles (4 km; 2.5 miles), may enable firing of rearward-facing IR homing air-to-air missiles.

will they sell it?

[tphuang]

i never said copy the su35!!! all i said was take sme of its features, such as canards, and put them on the su-27s china has. a few inches wont make a big difference....
now, to shed some light
Phazotron Zhuk-PH phased-array radar under development for later use, search range 89 to 132 n miles (165 to 245 km; 102 to 152 miles) in forward sector, 32 n miles (60 km; 37 miles) rearward, with simultaneous tracking of 24 air targets and ripple-fire engagement of six; N014 rearward-facing radar, range approximately 2 n miles (4 km; 2.5 miles), may enable firing of rearward-facing IR homing air-to-air missiles.

will they sell it?
yeah, they will sell it for sure. There are certain things that Russians can keep in its banks and certain things they can't. This is one of the things they have to sell just to compete with other countries.

[Chairman Hu]

So the dimensions are different between the Su-27 and the Su-35

Yea I stick by you on this MiGLeader, just think of it as a smaller Su-35, redo the front and add carnads, replace the systems and fit more better ones, and maybe add some pylons, just like technically copy somethings on the Su-35 and leave other things, since you're upgrading it to a Su-35 level, might as well borrow some ideas, save thinking time

[MIGleader]

yeah, they will sell it for sure. There are certain things that Russians can keep in its banks and certain things they can't. This is one of the things they have to sell just to compete with other countries.

russian banks are empty!!!!
yep. the su-35 was already offered to venzuela

[Gauntlet]

Hey, MiGleader...do you honestly know what you are talking about?

I mean...its not just to saw of the front part of an Su-35 and weld it onto a fuselage from a Su-27SK or a J-11...

You will have to reconfigure much of the airplane in order to just mount canards. Even if think they are "small" upgrades, the planes center of gravity and weight distribute will be out of balance.

And it aint just to screw them in with a phillips scredriver either, you will have to change the entire control settings and mount servos/hydraulics (dont realy know what moves the canards?) were they should be mounted.

And dude, as someone else said here, the Flanker-E aint just a field modification to the Flanker-B. Its an actual brand new fuselage, with enlarged control surfaces, due to the higher weight (more weapons and fuel), improved avionics and an overall newer technology used.

[MIGleader]

Hey, MiGleader...do you honestly know what you are talking about?

I mean...its not just to saw of the front part of an Su-35 and weld it onto a fuselage from a Su-27SK or a J-11...

You will have to reconfigure much of the airplane in order to just mount canards. Even if think they are "small" upgrades, the planes center of gravity and weight distribute will be out of balance.

And it aint just to screw them in with a phillips scredriver either, you will have to change the entire control settings and mount servos/hydraulics (dont realy know what moves the canards?) were they should be mounted.

And dude, as someone else said here, the Flanker-E aint just a field modification to the Flanker-B. Its an actual brand new fuselage, with enlarged control surfaces, due to the higher weight (more weapons and fuel), improved avionics and an overall newer technology used.

yes, i know what im talking about. the first russian su-35 was nothing exept a slightly modified canard fitted su-27

[vincelee]

apparently not

[MIGleader]

apparently not
elaborate. im talking about testing models, not a military one.

[tphuang]

let's get one thing straight. There is the su-35 and su-35BM. The latter is much more advanced. The first su-35 was not really all that impressive.

[Gauntlet]

BM? Never heard of that before...

I've only heard about the standard Su-35, and the brand new Su-35UB trainer.

Any links regarding the Su-35BM?

[tphuang]

BM? Never heard of that before...

I've only heard about the standard Su-35, and the brand new Su-35UB trainer.

Any links regarding the Su-35BM?
this is all I got for it.
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35/su-35.htm
improvements from su-35:
1. AL-41F1 engine
2. using sokol or irbis PAR
I bet there are other improvements too, but these are the most significant ones.

[MIGleader]

this is all I got for it.
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35/su-35.htm
improvements from su-35:
1. AL-41F1 engine
2. using sokol or irbis PAR
I bet there are other improvements too, but these are the most significant ones.

al-41...wouldnt a ws-10a do just fine? the al-41 seems tobe reserved for j-xx. definily a new radar though. niice info

[adeptitus]

russian banks are empty!!!!
yep. the su-35 was already offered to venzuela

You might be thinking of Brazil. Venezuela bought 50 MiG-29's. Brazil's was offered the Su-35 for its F-X program, but it has since been put on halt. To date there are no successful export of the Su-35 that I'm aware of.

[Chairman Hu]

ive heard of that too, was it 24 Su-35 for 700mil?

well anyways, does the Su-35 sound good for a frame to upgrade too?

[MIGleader]

ive heard of that too, was it 24 Su-35 for 700mil?

well anyways, does the Su-35 sound good for a frame to upgrade too?

you cant upgrade an airframe. you can put on additional feature that may be taken from the su-35, but never upgrae an su-27 frame to su-35. the su-35 featured an exellent radar and avionics upgrade, hopefully, the chinese can do similar. the su-35 also featued two more hard points...since the engine will stay the sme, best lay off the extra wieight.

[tphuang]

http://en.rian.ru/world/20051017/41802608.html

MOSCOW, October 17 (RIA Novosti) - Russian aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi expects its cooperation with China to increase following the opening of its Beijing office Monday, the head of the company said.

"We intend to continue cooperation in supplying modernized Su-35 (Flanker) planes, in addition to other updated fourth-generation aircraft," Mikhail Pogosyan said at the opening ceremony.

He also said the maintenance and modernization of aircraft supplied to China would be conducted more efficiently now that the Beijing office was open.

According to Pogosyan, Sukhoi is interested in joint projects both in military and civil aviation and is diversifying its production and developing civil projects, such as the Russian Regional Jet (RRJ), the Su-80 general-purpose aircraft, and the Be-103 light amphibious plane.

Pogosyan said that although the company did not supply China with planes in 2005, the volume of after-sale maintenance in China more than doubled in 2005 as compared with 2004.

He said he expected maintenance services provided for clients in 10 countries would account for $200 million in 2005, compared with $100 million in 2004 and $15 million in 2003.

More than 300 Sukhoi fighters, primarily the SU-27K and Su-30SKM Flanker fighters, are currently being employed by China's armed forces as a result of 15 years of cooperation.

[tphuang]

an article on J-11B's upgrades

Looks like J-11B could be a half-decent multi-role fighter in the future with the increased payload.

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/Get/NET/10182008439.htm
　　以下纯属引用和个人推测，有错的地方大家当笑话吧，诸位大大们不要较真啊
　　
　　在歼11A取得一定进步后，相关研究单位继续展开歼11B型机的发展工作，综合考虑中国军方未来作战需 要后，可认为A型机仅是作为一型验证性的过渡型号。B型机才是军方真正心仪的‘中式苏27’。总体 性能上，B型机基本达到苏27SKM水平，当然在这其中它被赋予了更多的中国特色。
　　
　　相比早期引入的苏27SK和其后的苏30MKK，结合中国军方使用经验，B型机更强调多用途与全程参战 能力。不妨认为，B型机正是苏27SK与苏30MKK一次中国式的结合物。
　　
　　机体结构上，B型机与其说是SK型的升级，不如说更象苏30MK的近亲。为增大航程和加强负载，中国人 在俄国人的帮助下对B型机机体结构进行调整，垂尾和机翼进行了新的设计，起落架、中央形梁及相关结构得到加 强或改进设计。垂尾与机翼在制造工艺上采用了新的复合材料与‘一体成型’技术。可以说在经历十多年 艰难消化与A型机经验后，中国人终于能在B型机上采用按自己方式生产的一些重要部件。与苏27SK相比，歼 11B增加了机内油箱的数量，负载提高到 7~7.5吨。有效航程提高15%~20%左右。根据中国空军要求，B型机将加装伸缩油管以具备空中加油能 力，可以预见，中国军方在未来很可能从俄国购进一定数量的空中加油机。
　　
　　尽管中国空军倾向于将B型机作为一款多用途战斗轰炸机。但加强空战性能依然是中国空军重要考虑方向之一 。在经过苏27SK与A型机的验证后，B型机将真正装载中国自行设计的FBW与新一代综合平显系统。这将使 歼11B的空战性能有较大提高。同时，在B型机重量较苏27SK有增加之时，中国人雄心勃勃地希望能在新机 型上使用自行研制的推力更强的发动机，但无疑这项计划在目前尚不成熟。
　　
　　在武器系统上，中国人将进行一次更大的跨越，即完全性的‘中国式体系’。在未来，或许B型机将 会要求俄国人的武器对其进行兼容，而不在是中方武器如何兼容俄国体系。
　　
　　对维护性能，中国也根据自已的需要对B型机提出新的要求，这一度给设计工作带来麻烦，经过各方调整后， 才最终在设计方与军方间得到权衡，必尽维护是双方技术能力综合的结果。据相关人士称，B型机较苏27SK的 维护适便度提高了30%~40%。
　　
　　相比多用途作战性能的改进，歼11B恐怕将是中国第一款正式列装综合数据链体系的战斗机。以用于与苏3 0MKK配合形成一个相对独立的作战体系，以减少和弥补中国空中指挥能力的不足，这无疑将对周地区形成巨大 威慑。而由歼11B引伸出的中国空军作战方式与战略的转变则更令人深思。

[Gauntlet]

do you have/can you translate it to English?