air to ground precision weapon

[tphuang]

irst homemade air-ground precision guided weapon attack training missile was born. Not sure which one they are talking about.


New-type airborne training missile scores perfect hit

PLA Daily 2005-09-28

　　

　　It was one day in late June and the sky was cloudless blue. An advanced battle plane of the PLA Air Force carrying a China-made air-ground attack training missile soared into the azure sky from a military airport. "Target contacted! Lock-in! Tracking! Fire!" The feedback of the test flight report from the pilot to the control tower indicated that the first homemade air-ground precision guided weapon attack training missile was born. The appraisal commission consisting of 3 academicians and 60 experts highly appraised the newly born training missile as having "achieved the internationally advanced level".

　　The X-type battle plane is a new type battle plane fielded to the troops of the air force for satisfying the modernization requirements of the PLA. But the X-type air-ground missile, as a main battle weapon, has no training missiles due to the restrictions of various reasons. Thus the training for the weapon cannot be conducted since the cost of the real missile is extremely high and the safety is not guaranteed. In order to break the bottleneck which handicaps the battle plane's fighting power, Professor Huang Changqiang, an air force-level expert from the PLA Air Force Engineering University, proposed to integrate the advanced domestic technical force and independently develop the attack training missile. It was a tough job. Professor Huang led his scientific research group to expand their research ground from laboratory to workshops, troops, test ground and even to the sky. After one year hard work, they eventually solved the key scientific problems, which used to cost several years, and created many "national firsts" with the internationally advanced level. The project for the attack training missile was honored the First-Class Military Scientific and Technological Progress Award.

　　By Zhang Nan and Guo Kai

　　(Sep. 28, PLA Daily)

[MIGleader]

type x battle plane? it has to be a j-10, su-30, or jh-7.
the weapon? china has had its own lazer guided bomb for a while, and russian tv bombs too.

how did they do it? gps? tercom?

[sumdud]

Can't be GPS, since China have none.
Can't be C-701 either. Why hide the secret?
Maybe it's a 10-20 km range laser missile developed for the J-8B, J-10,JH-7, J-11, etc.

[Su-27 Pilot]

type x battle plane? it has to be a j-10, su-30, or jh-7.
the weapon? china has had its own lazer guided bomb for a while, and russian tv bombs too.

how did they do it? gps? tercom?

I think is on the Su-30s since its the most capable fighter-bomber in PLAAF's inventory.

[adeptitus]

Can't be GPS, since China have none.
Can't be C-701 either. Why hide the secret?
Maybe it's a 10-20 km range laser missile developed for the J-8B, J-10,JH-7, J-11, etc.

China's GPS Sat:
http://www.sinodefence.com/space/spacecraft/bd1.asp

[MIGleader]

Can't be GPS, since China have none.
Can't be C-701 either. Why hide the secret?
Maybe it's a 10-20 km range laser missile developed for the J-8B, J-10,JH-7, J-11, etc.

glonass?
beidou?
civilian gps?
possibly gallileo?

[BrotherofSnake]

glonass?
beidou?
civilian gps?
possibly gallileo?

I don't think it's possible to use civilian GPS to guide bombs.

[sumdud]

I don't think it's possible to use civilian GPS to guide bombs.
Why not? All you pretty much need to do is modify the software.

Beidou is in operation? I thought it wasn't in full commision yet.
Galileo isn't up either.
China shouls know better than to use GPS.

[MIGleader]

Why not? All you pretty much need to do is modify the software.

Beidou is in operation? I thought it wasn't in full commision yet.
Galileo isn't up either.
China shouls know better than to use GPS.

beidou has been in operation for a while. while the constellation of four sattelites is not complete yet, the system still operates over asia and can give around 12m diameter of acuracy.

the chinese obviously hope to use gallieo in the future.,
china probably used gps for testing.. never in war.

[adeptitus]

I don't think it's possible to use civilian GPS to guide bombs.

http://www.danshistory.com/gps.shtml
"Each (GPS) satellite continuously broadcasts a digital radio signal that includes both its own position and the time, exact to a billionth of a second. A GPS receiver takes this information--from four satellites--and uses it to calculate its position on the planet. The receiver compares its own time with the time sent by a satellite and uses the difference between the two times to calculate its distance from the satellite. By checking its time against the time of three satellites whose positions are known, a receiver could pinpoint its longitude, latitude, and altitude."

On US military GPS satellites they carry 4 atomic clocks to ensure accuracy. I donno how good civilian GPS satellites are, but we can assume that it can be used to guide bombs and missiles by providing GPS data.

[adeptitus]

Why not? All you pretty much need to do is modify the software.
Beidou is in operation? I thought it wasn't in full commision yet.
Galileo isn't up either.
China shouls know better than to use GPS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beidou_navigation_system
The Beidou navigation system is a project by the People's Republic of China to develop an independent satellite navigation system. "Beidou" is the Chinese name of the Ursa Major constellation.

Beidou 1A was launched on 30 October 2000 and Beidou 1B followed on 20 December 2000. China plans to complete the system with a second pair, and Beidou 2A was put into orbit on 24 May 2003.

Unlike the GPS, GLONASS, and Galileo systems, which offer global positioning, Beidou uses satellites in geostationary orbit. This means that the system does not require a large constellation of satellites, but it also limits the coverage to areas on Earth where the satellites are visible.

==========================================

Here's some info on US Navstar:
"In 1973, the Department of Defense was looking for a foolproof method of satellite navigation. The solution was the Global Positioning System, the essential components of which are the 24 Navstar satellites built by Rockwell International, each weighing some 1,900 lb. Each satellite orbits the earth every 12 hours in a formation that ensures that every point on the planet will always be in radio contact with at least four satellites. The first operational GPS satellite was launched in 1978, and the system reached full 24-satellite capability in 1993."

==============================

According to the US Government, the Beidou GPS system only needs 2 to work, the other 2 are back-up units:

http://accra.usembassy.gov/wwwhgps2.html
"Although China has not yet established an operational satellite navigation and positioning network, research for such a system has been underway for many years, and a future space-based navigation capability is an acknowledged goal. Beidou ('Big Dipper') is the satellite component for the independent Chinese satellite navigation and positioning system. The Beidou satellite navigation and positioning system are consists of two satellites in geosynchronous orbit. The final Beidou constellation will include four satellites, two operational and two backups. Together with the ground stations, the Beidou system will provide navigation and positioning signals covering the East Asia region. However, to provide global signal coverage, satellites flying in other orbits around the world must complement the system. Three satellites have been launched to date."

==========================================

From the above information, we can conclude that the Beidou system is:
1) Geostationary (does not orbit)
2) Only require 2 in space to work, but seem to be following US model of 4 satellites overhead
3) Does not qualify as a "global network"
4) But will provide GPS data in East-Asia region

[MIGleader]

hmmm...i was under the impression gps only used three sattelits to pinpoint a certain location

[tphuang]

only requires 3, but the point is that in most areas of earth, you can only see 4 of these satellites, that's why you need 24 satellites over all. The 4th satellite is for redundency. Theoretically speaking, you cannot see double digit number of satellites.

[Sea Dog]

Thanks for the article tphuang. Very interesting indeed. I agree with some that it will probably be fitted to work with Su-30 MKK due to the aircrafts durability. The Su-30 MKK is very impressive in many ways. And I'm sure the PLAAF is trying to find the right mix in weapons for the roles it will be playing.

[sumdud]

From the above information, we can conclude that the Beidou system is:
1) Geostationary (does not orbit)
2) Only require 2 in space to work, but seem to be following US model of 4 satellites overhead
3) Does not qualify as a "global network"
4) But will provide GPS data in East-Asia region
I am still baffled by the fact that it locates with 2 satelites and being geostationery.
Isn't the other systems geostationery?
And how can you locate with 2 satelliets is still beyond me. You still have 2 spots of location with such systems.

[MIGleader]

I am still baffled by the fact that it locates with 2 satelites and being geostationery.
Isn't the other systems geostationery?
And how can you locate with 2 satelliets is still beyond me. You still have 2 spots of location with such systems.

none of us here are experts in space science and sattelite operation. china had been reserching geo staionary orbuit sinvce the 70s. ask a chinese sattelite engineer.

[walter]

On US military GPS satellites they carry 4 atomic clocks to ensure accuracy. I donno how good civilian GPS satellites are, but we can assume that it can be used to guide bombs and missiles by providing GPS data.

military GPS and civilian GPS come from the same satellites, same system. There is not a system of civilian satellites and another system of military satellites.


I am still baffled by the fact that it locates with 2 satelites and being geostationery.
Isn't the other systems geostationery?
And how can you locate with 2 satelliets is still beyond me. You still have 2 spots of location with such systems.

the source mentioned 2 satellites plus ground stations. with enough ground stations spread around they could still triangulate.

[tphuang]

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=2591656&PageNum=0
Russia, China space rockets equipped with GLONASS

03.11.2005, 15.19





MOSCOW, November 3 (Itar-Tass) - Russian and Chinese military and civil rockets and spacecraft have begun to be equipped with devices of the global navigation satellite system (GLONASS).

“Equipping carrier rockets, propulsion units and spacecraft will allow substantially increasing the effectiveness of spacecraft control at all segments of the flight and decreasing the spending on the ground complex,” an official of the Russian Federal Space Agency (Roskosmos) told Itar-Tass on Thursday.

GLONASS equipment of new spacecraft is part of civil and military space exploration, he said.

The Russian government has approved a federal space program for 2006-2015, in which special attention is given to the GLONASS system.

Russia’s satellite navigation system that now includes 14 craft is to be increased to 18 by 2007.

New-generation satellites Glonass-M and Glonass-K with the operation life of 7 and 10 years will be added to the orbital grouping within three years.

“The use of such satellites will allow providing navigation information to an unlimited number of users at any point of the earth and increasing the precision of determining coordinates of an object to one metres, the Roskosmos official said.

Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov earlier said that about 10 percent of Russia’s military budget for 2006 was slated for space.

“A priority will given to completing the deployment of the global positioning system,” he said.

Russian Space Troops plan launching three new satellites of the GLONASS system on December 28.

According to the federal program Global Navigation System, 24 satellites are to be deployed in orbit by 2010.