India to keenly watch PAF's `coming of age'

[SABRE]

India to keenly watch PAF's `coming of age'
Mon, 29 Aug 2005, 13:37



NEW DELHI: A large and complex war game by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) next month is being seen by the IAF as “coming of age” of the PAF's tactical air doctrine.

The IAF will be watching closely the exercise - involving crucial doctrinal tests endorsed by General Pervez Musharraf himself - that will elevate the PAF to a primary assault force, on par with the country's Army.

High Mark 2005, which kicks off on September 7 (Air Force Day in Pakistan), will involve 350 military aircraft and 20 air bases, including those on the frontier with India. The exercise will see the PAF put newly-honed beyond visual range (BVR), interdiction, air escort, ground attack and interception concepts through torture tests.


Sources at the Air HQ here said, “It is for the first time that they will have such a large mock deployment and it will be interesting to see how it goes. The establishment there has been working furiously on the air force concepts for the last three to four years. It must be said, however, that the IAF is conceptually more advanced at this stage.”

The aircraft to be used in the war game include the American-made F-16B and AH-1 Cobra chopper, Chinese F-7 and Q-5, French Mirage-III and IV, C-130 Hercules transporters and other support platforms, including UAVs, Pak Navy's P-3B Orions and Atlantiques. The Sino-Pak JF-17 multirole fighter might also be fielded for combat postures in the exercise, according to reports.


Source: DefenceTalk News
Link: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003197.php



This is going to be biggest war got of its sort. ACs flying all over Pakistan. From one corner to another. It is also going to celebrate farewell to old PAF war doctorine & some old AirCrafts.

The show up of JF-17 would be watch by Pakistan, Chinese & also the Indians.

It will also be interesting to see PAF's Mirage-3 & 5 equiped & in action with their new MICA BVR Missiles from France.

[Diving Falcon]

If you're referring to ROSE-II and ROSE-III, then they cannot use the MICA BVR missiles, the only Mirage I think which could use them is the Mirage ROSE-I, which is based off Mirage-III. However I should note, there have been reports of PAF acquiring a BVR system back in 2003-2004, from South Africa apparently.

I agree with you on the part about this excersize being revolutionary in the PAF's history, given that after this excersize, the new plan and procurement era will start. Over the next few years, if all goes well, the PAF will be inducting new F-16s, JF-17s, AWACS, new SAMs, changing their old ADS to a new modern one, etc.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Pakistan has the JF-17, yet China does not fly the FC-1 yet. Why is that? And are the JF-17s produced in Pakistan or China? Are there any differences between the JF-17 and FC-1, other than perhaps French avionics on the JF-17 and Russian ones on the FC-1?

[MIGleader]

i think the jf-17 is the export designation, while fc-1 was the name of the original project.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

i think the jf-17 is the export designation, while fc-1 was the name of the original project.

I thought the FC-1 was the export designation, JF-17 was the Pakistani designation, and J-9 the PLAAF designation (if it enters PLAAF service).

[MIGleader]

it won't enter plaaf service...althogh it would be a great way to replace the older migs. i think you may be right.

[Diving Falcon]

JF-17 seems to be the Pakistani designation, while FC-1 is export, but overall its the same fighter, except for the avionics and weapons perhaps, assuming PAF does get a Western avionics suite in the JF-17's 2nd or 3rd upgrade.

[ger_mark]

does that plane have engines jet ?

[SABRE]

If you're referring to ROSE-II and ROSE-III, then they cannot use the MICA BVR missiles, the only Mirage I think which could use them is the Mirage ROSE-I, which is based off Mirage-III. However I should note, there have been reports of PAF acquiring a BVR system back in 2003-2004, from South Africa apparently.

I agree with you on the part about this excersize being revolutionary in the PAF's history, given that after this excersize, the new plan and procurement era will start. Over the next few years, if all goes well, the PAF will be inducting new F-16s, JF-17s, AWACS, new SAMs, changing their old ADS to a new modern one, etc.

I guess u have missed out. In Paris Air Show one of the PAF Mirage-5 was displayed. It is said it was one othe most unique aircrafts one display. According to reports it had Letest French Radar & MICA on board. This was of ROSE-III upgrade. So the Mirage-3/5 ROSE-III can fire MICA missiles. Thats why the news said that PAF will test fire its new BVR missiles.

What South Africa gave technology transfer of were BVR Bombs not BVRAAMs.

Pakistan has the JF-17, yet China does not fly the FC-1 yet. Why is that? And are the JF-17s produced in Pakistan or China? Are there any differences between the JF-17 and FC-1, other than perhaps French avionics on the JF-17 and Russian ones on the FC-1?

PAF doesnt have JF-17 yet niether does PLAAF. Atleast not in status of fighter jets. These are prototypes which will fly in the show. They signify the modernization.

Yes PAF JF-17 would be different from Chinese FC-1. PAF will equip JF-17 with different Radar & avionics (mostly western, most from France).

i think the jf-17 is the export designation, while fc-1 was the name of the original project.

FC-1 is Chinese version JF-17 is Pakistani version. The export version has also been named JF-17 but PAF JF-17 is going to be different in avionics & weapon system. e.g: It may carry French MICA missiles along with SD-10.

I thought the FC-1 was the export designation, JF-17 was the Pakistani designation, and J-9 the PLAAF designation (if it enters PLAAF service).

J-9 was previous designation which both PAC & CAC decided to remove. PAF dint want to call it F-9. It sounded like inferior AC to F-16s. The main purpose was to make it superior to F-16A/B Block 15, 30 some versions of block 40.

it won't enter plaaf service...althogh it would be a great way to replace the older migs. i think you may be right.

PLAAF is going to buy 200 FC-1s to replace some of its J-7/F-7 & Q-5/A-5 ACs.

JF-17 seems to be the Pakistani designation, while FC-1 is export, but overall its the same fighter, except for the avionics and weapons perhaps, assuming PAF does get a Western avionics suite in the JF-17's 2nd or 3rd upgrade.

I guess if u read above you'll find ur answer.

does that plane have engines jet ?

Yes...RD-93. China has about 100 of them. By the time PAC & CAC produce 50-50 FC-1/JF-17s respectively, the Chinese & Pakistanis would probably come up with RD-93's reverse engineered version for JF-17/FC-1.

Russia is not selling any more RD-93 because of its use on Pakistani JF-17. But China as always has a way out :D

Indians are thinking that Russians are doing this because of alliance between them while in reality Russia sees FC-1 & JF-17 as loss to its exports of MiG-29 & upgrading spare components market for MiG-21s & other old MiG versions. JF-17 is suppose to replace them remeber that.

[Diving Falcon]

I guess u have missed out. In Paris Air Show one of the PAF Mirage-5 was displayed. It is said it was one othe most unique aircrafts one display. According to reports it had Letest French Radar & MICA on board. This was of ROSE-III upgrade. So the Mirage-3/5 ROSE-III can fire MICA missiles. Thats why the news said that PAF will test fire its new BVR missiles.

What South Africa gave technology transfer of were BVR Bombs not BVRAAMs.
That would hardly make sence given that the Pakistan Air Force is still one of those air forces with limited resources, and mere common sence dictates that an air force with limited resources would want to make full use of an expensive weapon. The Mirage ROSE-III does not have a radar, thus firing a MICA on it would be a waste given that a plane with a good radar would make better use of it. Sure, I'm not saying that PAF doesn't have MICA, but its extremely unlikely that the MICA is being used on ROSE-III, which is primarily a strike plane, without a radar (or a suffiecient enough one).

As for the reports about it being fitted with the latest radar, I suggest you read about the ROSE III from AFM's past articles, and as you'll see, there is no mention of radar. Contact Munir if possible, as he or someone he knew went to the air show. ROSE III and ROSE II are the same thing, they're both from the Mirage V, only the ROSE-I has a radar which could use a BVRAAM.

[SABRE]

That would hardly make sence given that the Pakistan Air Force is still one of those air forces with limited resources, and mere common sence dictates that an air force with limited resources would want to make full use of an expensive weapon. The Mirage ROSE-III does not have a radar, thus firing a MICA on it would be a waste given that a plane with a good radar would make better use of it. Sure, I'm not saying that PAF doesn't have MICA, but its extremely unlikely that the MICA is being used on ROSE-III, which is primarily a strike plane, without a radar (or a suffiecient enough one).

U did miss out dint u.

There are two phases of upgrading of Mirages of PAF. One is handled by PAC Kamra other by SEGAM in France.

PAC Kamra has upgraded Mirage-3s with Italian Grifo M Radar which has look down - shoot down & BVR capability. Also HUD, Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR) Pod. BVR H-1 & H-2 bombs. HOTAS controls, RWR's chaff/flare, Besides some say that Kamra upgrade mirages can carry side winders aswell.

SEGAM has still kept its secret. They are not revealing the Radar. Some reports say that the new Radar on Mirage-5 of PAF has multi-targeting capability. SEGAM officials only said that with the latest upgrades Mirages are the best fighters in PAF inventory, even better than current F-16 Fleet of PAF.

As for the reports about it being fitted with the latest radar, I suggest you read about the ROSE III from AFM's past articles, and as you'll see, there is no mention of radar. Contact Munir if possible, as he or someone he knew went to the air show. ROSE III and ROSE II are the same thing, they're both from the Mirage V, only the ROSE-I has a radar which could use a BVRAAM.

My Friend do you think ACM, AFM will give away big informations to public. where are you from Cambodia (kidding dont mind). The upgrading by PAC & SEGAM was kept secret & it still is, even though both plants have came out that they have upgraded mirages to advance versions. Even France did not allow the secrecy to be revealed to public & press during Paris Air Show. They covered Mirage-5 of PAF with black cloth & took the pics of MICA mounted on it them selves & handed over to press.

Besides you are talking of old reports. Talk of new. This is new report my friend.

(I'll find u the pic of Mirage-5 with MICA on it for u)

[Diving Falcon]

Friend, its not the pciture Mirage ROSE-III being stationed with a MICA I'm worried about, I'm worried about the fact that when there are supposedly advanced avionics, a FLIR system, and other devices fitted into the small nose of a Mirage V, there isn't any room for radars. Unless SAGEM designed a combat radar with 100km range, I doubt PAF will risk putting MICA on a plane which won't fully utilize its capability. I'd like to see atleast one source of information, perhaps a card, a interview, or even a sketch of an arrow pointing to the radar.

If the Mirage ROSE II and III does have a radar, some adequate proof would be nice. Other than that, I highly doubt the ROSE II or III will carry MICA, perhaps the ROSE-I can, JF-17 can (once its radar is finally decided).

[SABRE]

Friend, its not the pciture Mirage ROSE-III being stationed with a MICA I'm worried about, I'm worried about the fact that when there are supposedly advanced avionics, a FLIR system, and other devices fitted into the small nose of a Mirage V, there isn't any room for radars. Unless SAGEM designed a combat radar with 100km range, I doubt PAF will risk putting MICA on a plane which won't fully utilize its capability. I'd like to see atleast one source of information, perhaps a card, a interview, or even a sketch of an arrow pointing to the radar.

If the Mirage ROSE II and III does have a radar, some adequate proof would be nice. Other than that, I highly doubt the ROSE II or III will carry MICA, perhaps the ROSE-I can, JF-17 can (once its radar is finally decided).

Have you ever noticed that when ever PAF Mirages come out of up gradation their nose is extended.

PAF is utilizing these avionics for temp periods till JF-17 is ready. These avionics would be removed from it & installed on JF-17. By than pilots would have gain substantion experiance on these packages.

[Diving Falcon]

Well...after my last post, I did some digging and researching, to find you the following pieces of information;

This is from PakDef's Usman Shabbir;
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=56426&postcount=10

From this thread;
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?t=6458&page=1&pp=25

This is the quote I want you to look at;
1). ROSE-III is same as ROSE-II – it is being given to the remaining 14 Mirage V’s that were never upgraded the first time around.

What is ROSE II you may ask?

This is from Usman Shabbir earlier;
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=32223&postcount=6

You'll have to scroll down though...but here's the quote;
As the SAGEM proposal became more and more attractive and feasible, the PAF negotiated a further reduction in costs so that they actually fell into its feasibility regime. Through numerous discussions, SAGEM came up with a revised proposal of $124 million in November 1995. According to this proposal, the package was to consist of thirty-four Mirage Vs and six dual-seat Mirage IIIs, making a total of forty fully overhauled aircraft. Out of the forty aircraft, twenty Mirage Vs would be mordanized to the ROSE-II standards (ROSE-II modification is the same as ROSE-I, except the Griffo-M radar is replaced by FLIR). The engines installed on the aircraft would have a minimum life of four years and 300 hours. The package would also include the required ground support, alternate mission equipment, and line replaceable units. Besides, the kits for RWR, CFD and GPS would be installed in all aircraft.

You must note, I'm not denying that the PAF has or will get MICA, I'm simply denying the claim about it being stationed on Mirage ROSE III, as it won't be able to make full use of the missile.

PS. I hope you're not underestimating me because of my age, because I would seriously love for you to prove me wrong ;)

[tphuang]

J-9 was previous designation which both PAC & CAC decided to remove. PAF dint want to call it F-9. It sounded like inferior AC to F-16s. The main purpose was to make it superior to F-16A/B Block 15, 30 some versions of block 40.

what? JF-17 is supposed to be better than F-16A/B? I thought J-10 is only at the C/D level

[YueTheMighty]

A JF-17 better than a F-16?

Thats bullsh*t.

A JF-17 is a one engine Mig-29 at best. How can it be compared to a F-16? One engine planes are a sorry excuse for fighter aircraft.

[Diving Falcon]

It depends how you compare the JF-17 to the PAF's current F-16A/B Block-15, if you're comparing range and payload, then the F-16 obviously wins. On the other hand, if you're to compare the JF-17's avionics, weapons, and systems, especially the ones in its initial stage to the current model F-16 in the PAF, then I must say the JF-17 wins. Why? Well the first production model JF-17 hosts a more advanced cockpit, it'll carry BVR and PG weapons, its radar is supposed to be better too. However, please note that if the PAF's F-16s do get the MLU, as well as new weapon systems, then it wins. Yet again, also note the JF-17 I'm bringing is merely its initial form, in its 2nd or 3rd upgrade, it'll definately be superior to the current model F-16 PAF operates.

However on the general basis, F-16 is far superior, given that it has a much more solid combat record, and the latest version can and will slaughter the JF-17. The JF-17 is at best comparable to the A/B Block-5, 10, and 15, and doesn't go beyond that, atleast not yet.
A JF-17 is a one engine Mig-29 at best. How can it be compared to a F-16? One engine planes are a sorry excuse for fighter aircraft
BTW many of the world's most popular aircraft are single engine aircraft, such as the MiG-21, F-16, Mirage 2000, etc. Come to think of it, even the world's first jet fighters, atleast the X1 were single engine, not a good way to insult the fathers of jet fighter technology is it?

Thats bullsh*t.
I also suggest you provide proof or adequate understanding behind your claims, before you start stating other's claims as BS. Given that such un supportive claims, as well as personal opinions without reasoning come up to being spam.

[Srirangan]

Indians are thinking that Russians are doing this because of alliance between them while in reality Russia sees FC-1 & JF-17 as loss to its exports of MiG-29 & upgrading spare components market for MiG-21s & other old MiG versions. JF-17 is suppose to replace them remeber that.
Not really dude .. its a contractual clause .. another clause in the Ruskie Sino agreement is that .. if any Russian company places a bid on a tender, China can't offer the FC-1 for that potential buyer

But I doubt Russia is worried the FC1 will eat MiG29's market share. They are different planes. The FC1 is the MiG MFI (MiG33) design. Its role, similar to the MiG21, is that of a high speed interceptor.

Whereas the role of the MiG29 variants vary from that of a Multi role fighter/bomber and the Latest MiG 29 UB (aka MiG35) of having a role of air superiority fighter.

FC1 is one of a kind, a very cheap and basic BVR capable interceptor.

[WebMaster]

its a contractual clause .. another clause in the Ruskie Sino agreement is that .. if any Russian company places a bid on a tender, China can't offer the FC-1 for that potential buyer

Got a link for this? When did this agreement take place? How come I don't know about this agreement? And why is that only Indian's end up talking about this agreement while Chinese and Pakistanis are just not worried about it? Unless this information is from a CREDIBLE source/link, I would consider it nothing but BS.

[SABRE]

New On the Topic:


PAF goes for biggest exercises today

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force's month-long strategic exercise, High Mark-05, will kickoff today (Sunday, 4th september).

The exercise, the biggest in country's military history, is to focus on sharply developing strategies to operate and conduct air operations in the hilly areas of North and Kashmir.


The extensive exercises are preceded by extensive tri-service war-game titled, Tempest-1, focused on the employment concepts of air power.

PAF will be conducting High Mark 05 with 180 Mirages, 60 A-5, 32 F-16s, 55 F7PG, 155F7MP, 15 FT7MP, 20 C-130 Allocates, Puma, MI17 and Cobra helicopters. Aim 9P, Aim9L, Magic R550, Air Dragon, PL-7, PL5, BL755 Exocet, CBU10, CBU 12, Maverick and Snake eye missiles will be the systems at the disposals of the two forces.


However, Wonder Thunder Jet JF-17 will not participate in the exercises as it still awaits avionics and missile systems to be mounted on it though the airborne subsystems have been fitted on it.


President Gen Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz will also witness the drills to be participated by the Pakistan Army and Navy as well.

The PAF alone would bear the entire budgetary expense of the exercise that will involve all major bases including Risalpur, Kamara, Peshawar, Chaklala, Mianwali, Mushaf, Rafiqui, Samungli, Mehran and Masroor.

The transport and helicopter fleets would be exposed to the same operational engagement as the fighter aircraft.

The PAF aircrafts will fly a large quantum of operational sorties.

Two operations headquarters will be set up on undisclosed bases from where two air forces will engage in full fledge war involving ground troops, army aviation and strategic forces.


Upgraded avionics and Air Defence Sensors on aircraft and ground-based radars are meshed into the greater fabric of air operations.

Two opposing forces Blueland and Foxland would clash in the exercises.

Blue Forces will be lean, agile, and equipped with modern, state-of-the-art air defence equipment and fighters mounted with strategic weapon systems.

The Fox Forces having the number edge in aircraft's will be in an offensive mode warranting the Blue Forces to first secure vital assets including the major bases, runways, bridges and strategic locations.

Northern Air Command Peshawar, Central Air Command Sargodha and Southern Air Command Masroor will be dedicating their squadrons to form Blue and Fox Forces.

Source: DefenceTalk New
Link: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003272.php


So its a bad news...we still dont see JF-17 in the game. :(

On the other hand vertual war would be good entertainment.

[Washington]

This is a good topic, but it doesn't relate. Sorry I had to delete it. If you wish, you can start another thread.

[Diving Falcon]

This is indeed the largest excersize held in PAF history, following this excersize we will see massive change in the PAF's fleet, armament inventory, etc. Lets just hope that all goes according to plan, and there are no casualties during this month.

[crazyinsane105]

This is indeed the largest excersize held in PAF history, following this excersize we will see massive change in the PAF's fleet, armament inventory, etc. Lets just hope that all goes according to plan, and there are no casualties during this month.

Well, during these large exercises, it is natural for errors and even loss of human life. However, it is better that it happens in training/practice than in war.

[Diving Falcon]

Well, during these large exercises, it is natural for errors and even loss of human life. However, it is better that it happens in training/practice than in war.
No it is not natural because when you look at each specific picture of an accident, it was preventable.

[crazyinsane105]

No it is not natural because when you look at each specific picture of an accident, it was preventable.

Well, even though it could be preventable, it still happens. And humans do tend to make mistakes. My point is that it is better to mess up right now because it can be corrected in the future than mess up during a time of war.

[Diving Falcon]

The entire point of this excersize is to prevent mess ups, and PAF is responsible enough to make sure nothing goes wrong in this excersize, because if it does, it will cause massive problems and we can't do something like this in the future. The officer in charge of the excersize said it himself, PAF can't afford even one crash. Also note, observers from U.S, Turkey, France, Saudi Arabia, and UAE are here, if this goes well (Inshallah), the PAF will be taking part in more NATO and Peninsula Guard air excersizes.