china manned space - news and views

[crazyinsane105]

This is a very interesting read:

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.80/pub_detail.asp
by Richard Fisher, Jr.
Published on October 10th, 2005

China pursues a robust military space effort, to include manned and unmanned military space programs, while it accuses the United States of militarizing outer space and seeks via diplomacy to limit U.S. military space programs. The imminent launch of China's second manned space mission, called Shenzhou-6, perhaps as early as October 12, 2005, should draw attention to China's manned military space ambitions. The People's Republic of China (PRC) uses its manned space program to serve scientific goals, like
experimentation and eventual Moon exploration, and political purposes, such
as advancing nationalist pride and impressing the world with China's
"peaceful rise." China would also like to leverage its manned space program
to achieve greater access to European and multi-national space programs like
the U.S.-led International Space Station.[1]

However, all five of the previous Shenzhou missions since November 1999, including four unmanned test missions and the first October 2003 manned mission, were used to perform military missions. Early 2005 Chinese television images of Shenzhou-6 under construction indicate that it will also serve military surveillance missions. This evidence suggests that China’s manned space program has been designed to serve military needs as well as others. This is at odds with Beijing’s campaign against the “militarization of outer space,� and contrasts in certain respects with the American pattern, but appears to follow the former Soviet Union’s attempts to develop manned military space platforms. China also makes unmanned military satellites and has ambitions plans in this area.[2]

Indeed, in March 2005, the National Air and Space Intelligence Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force based issued an unclassified report that noted:

“Chinese and Russian manned space programs have heavy military involvement….China’s manned space program is run by the People’s Liberation Army and includes research on military sensors for space reconnaissance, as well as experiments to understand the space environment. China wants to establish a space station of its own, probably one similar to the early Russian Salyut military space station missions.�[3]

China’s military designs for its manned space program creates dilemmas for countries considering greater “civil� space cooperation with China. First, if China has decided that manned and unmanned military space combat capabilities are in its national security interests, then can “civil� space cooperation with China truly serve to curb greater military competition with China in space? Furthermore, could such cooperation serve to increase China’s ability to develop more sophisticated manned or unmanned military space capabilities which could threaten countries like Japan, Taiwan, or even the United States? And third, now that China is pursuing programs to put vehicles on the Moon, is it possible that China could even expand military competition to that realm?

Firm Military Control of China’s Manned Space Program

China regularly criticizes American plans to “militarize� outer space. In June 2005 China joined Russia in the United Nations Conference on Disarmament to revive a Committee To Prevent the Arms Race In Outer Space, discontinued in 1994.[4] But in China, both manned and unmanned space programs are run by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), or more specifically, the General Armaments Department (GAD) under the PLA’s Central Military Commission. In his April 2002 message following the landing of the Shenzhou-3 capsule, former PRC President Jiang Zemin congratulated then GAD Director, now Defense Minister General Cao Gangchuan, as the “chief director of the national manned spacecraft program.�[5] In November 2002 General Li Jinai was elevated to GAD Director, and the following July, Hong Kong press reports noted he had been appointed “commander-in-chief� of the manned space program, and had taken reports from Huang Junping, director of the Long March CZ-2F manned space-launch rocket program, and Yuan Jiajun, director of the Shenzhou spaceship program.[6] And during a telephone call from space with China’s leaders, China’s first astronaut, Air Force Lt. Col. Yang Liwei, repeatedly addressed Defense Minister Cao Gangchuan as “chief.�[7] In November 2004 General Chen Bingde was elevated to the CMC and to the post of Director of the General Armaments Department, and is assumed to be the current director of the manned space program.

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/20051010_MS01.jpg
China’s First Two Space Chiefs: Former manned space program director and General Armaments Department Director General Li Jinai, and his predecessor, current Defense Minister General Cao Gangchuan, inspect a Yuan-class submarine model.

Future “PLA Space Force�?

Evidence suggests that the PLA understands the necessity of using and securing outer space as a military objective to serve terrestrial military objectives. The National Air and Space Intelligence Center quoted Liying Zhan, of the Langfang Army Missile Academy saying, “In future space wars, the main operations will consist of destructive satellite attacks and counterattacks, as well as jamming and antijamming operations.�[8] According to a PLA officer interviewed in late 2004, who asked not to be identified in print, for a number of years a debate has proceeded within the PLA over which service should control the range of military-space missions. This officer noted that the debate has been between the Second Artillery, which controls nuclear and non-nuclear missiles, and the PLA Air Force.[9]

The PLA officer may be correct. In July the Hong Kong journal Chien Shao published an article, claiming to be based on PLA literature and sources, asserting that China has been secretly preparing a “space war experimental team� that could lead to the formation of a new service, a “Space Force� to be assembled from elements of the General Armament Department, the Space Agency and the Second Artillery Corp. The Space Force might have 90,000 personnel and would be directly subordinate the Central Military Commission.[10] The article makes clear the PLA did not yet have such a Space Force, but was actively studying the possibility, and that China’s leaders “…will accelerate the pace of space build-up and actively develop ‘killer’ weapons, including laser weapons, particle beam weapons, microwave pulse weapons, electromagnetic guided missiles, and anti-radiation missiles.�[11]

Shenzhou’s Military Record

The original Shanghai Astronautics Bureau Project 921-1 manned space capsule was revamped in 1994 following Jaing Zemin’s visit to Russia, which led to a 1995 agreement to transfer Russian manned space technology. China purchased a Russian Soyuz space capsule, life support and docking technology, space suits, and astronaut training.[12] While the PRC has boasted that it was responsible for the design and production of its subsequent space craft, it is clear that Russian technology has made possible the PRC’s first manned space program. With its November 20, 1999 test flight, the 921-1 craft gained the name “Shenzhou� or “Divine Vessel� from Jiang Zemin, and was revealed to be scaled-up Soyuz, featuring the same three-part design: orbital module; command/crew module; and a service or propulsion module. Shenzhou, however, at a weight of 7800kg, and a length of 7.79m is about 550 kg heavier and over a meter longer than the Soyuz. Unlike Soyuz, the 921-1 has a cylindrical orbital module that has its own solar energy panels, thrusters to enable minor maneuvers, and a digital data transmission system, making it capable of independent operations. All Shenzhou flights have entailed extended orbital module missions following the return of the command module.

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms02a.jpg

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Russian Soyuz and China’s Shenzhou Compared: Russia’s Soyuz is primarily a space shuttle, though there were many unrealized Soviet-era proposals for military applications. China’s Shenzhou is a slightly larger Soyuz-based design that incorporated military functions from the beginning. Source: Internet and RD Fisher

The first flight of Shenzhou in November 1999 lasted only 21 hours. The second unmanned test flight on January 9, 2001 lasted six days, and featured an extended flight for the orbital module that carried experiments, a feature of all subsequent Shenzhou missions. This mission also reportedly encountered an unexpected hard landing for the descent module, likely due to a parachute malfunction, with the implication that any occupants would have died.[13] A third mission from March 25-April 1, 2002 saw the testing of a fully man-rated capsule that carried two dummy “Yuhangyuan � or astronauts that simulated most human functions, plus upgraded video an voice communication systems. A fourth test mission took place from December 31, 2002 to January 5, 2003, carrying dummies and science experiments. The fifth mission took place on October 15, 2003, in which the first Chinese astronaut, Lt. Col Yang Liwei, circled the Earth for 21 hours and 23 minutes.[14]

It is now known that all of the unmanned and even the first manned Shenzhou flight performed military missions. Military systems are part of the Shenzhou’s orbital module. Shenzhou-1 and 2 very likely performed electronic intelligence (ELINT) missions.[15] This was indicated by the orbital module’s carrying external Yagi-type antennae mounted on three extendable poles, construction that is consistent with ELINT missions. A Chinese space flight official indicated in early 2003 that Shenzhou-4 conducted ELINT missions, perhaps indicating that Shenzhou’s-2 and 3 did so too. This same official also noted that Shenzhou 4 carried a “microwave� sensing device, very likely a prototype radar satellite.[16] In addition, the orbital modules for Shenzhou’s 3 to 5 all had external box structures that resemble cameras.

Close up photos of the orbital module for Shenzhou-5 reveal an external box that very likely contained a camera, and an aperture in the orbital module itself, very likely for a second camera. This could mean a hyper-spectral and a close-up camera were included.[17] According to a Hong Kong report a PRC scientist claimed the Shenzhou-5 camera had a resolution of 1.6 meters.[18] The twin camera configuration suggests both high-resolution imaging and hyperspectral cameras, combining imagery from both results in better image definition. Mark Wade, chronicler of the Encyclopedia Astronautica web page, concluded, “…it may be inferred that the main mission of China's first manned spaceflight will be military imaging reconnaissance.�[19] The Shenzhou-5 orbital module reportedly conducted “experiments� for 154 days, or about five months after separation from the command module, which may also correspond with the length of its imaging surveillance mission.[20]

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms03a.jpg

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms03b.jpg
Shenzhou 1 and 5 Orbital Modules: The Shenzhou-1 orbital module shows antenna structures to support a possible ELINT mission. A close up picture of the Shenzhou-5 orbital module from a Chinese magazine shows an external box that very likely contained a camera, and a second opening in the module itself consistent with a camera device. Source: Chinese Internet

According to numerous reports, the next mission, Shenzhou-6, will feature a two-man crew and a flight that will last about 119 hours, or just short of five days.[21] Chinese officials have noted that there are at least “100� new modifications to Shenzhou-6 to improve its flight performance, control systems, and crew habitability. Unlike Col. Yang Liwei’s first mission, the next crew of two will be allowed to leave the command module and enter the orbital module for experiments and personal functions.

However, there is evidence that Shenzhou-6 will also perform military surveillance missions. The Shenzhou-6 capsule was completed by at least early March 2005.[22] Late January Chinese television images of the final assembly of the Shenzhou-6 capsule and orbital module show clearly that the latter has the same two-camera assembly as Shenzhou-5. A box structure outside the orbital module is consistent with the camera assembly on Shenzhou-5, as is an aperture in the module itself for an internal camera, also consistent with Shenzhou-5. Given that all of the Shenzhou missions have demonstrated gradual improvements to most systems, it is reasonable to expect that the camera and surveillance systems on Shenzhou-6 will be improved compared to Shenzhou-5. And as with all the previous Shenzhou missions, the unoccupied orbital module for Shenzhou-6 will remain aloft for many more months to perform surveillance missions.

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms04a.jpg

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms04b.jpg
Shenzhou-6 Reconnaissance Features: Chinese television images of Shenzhou-6 in assembly were aired in late January 2005. The video outtake with the orbital module says, “Shenzhou 6 Space Capsule Entering Final Assembly Stage, To Be Launched September to October This Year.� This picture clearly shows that the orbital module will have the same camera-related structures as Shenzhou-5. Source: Chinese Internet/CCTV

Space Station Ambitions

While the China’s manned space program may seem slow and deliberate, it may pick up speed around the turn of the decade by initiating a small “Spacelab,� a predecessor to a larger space station. The next three Shenzhou missions, perhaps as early as 2007, to 2008 or 2009, may feature a spacewalk, and then a docking maneuver between a Shenzhou ship and an orbital module left in orbit from another Shenzhou ship launched just before. Such a mission will serve to confirm the operability of space docking systems developed from Russian technology acquired in the early 1990s, as docking is an essential competency to manage larger space platforms. In early 2004, Chinese Internet sources revealed a concept for a “Spacelab,� which consisted of a propulsion module from the Shenzhou, with a permanently attached section slightly larger than the combined sizes of the Shenzhou command and orbital modules. The front of the Spacelab contained a docking port. The validity of this image was later confirmed by its use in multiple space-related video presentations at the November 2004 Zhuhai Airshow.[23]

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms05a.jpg

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms05b.jpg

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms05c.jpg
Space Docking and Spacelab: Chinese Internet source images, later used in video presentations viewed at the November 2004 Zhuhai Airshow, show China’s planned use of the Shenzhou to verify space docking technology, and then to use the Shenzhou as the basis for a small “Spacelab� platform. While the Spacelab may only be able to support brief manned visits, this platform has the flexibility to be configured for surveillance or for active anti-satellite missions. Source: Chinese Internet

While it is to be expected that China will advertise its Spacelab as a larger space platform for scientific and commercial-related research, it could be used for military missions. The Spacelab concept released thus far is a relatively small ship that could only host brief manned visits, perhaps dependent on supplies taken on a Shenzhou. But it also has the advantage of being compatible with the existing CZ-2F space launch vehicle. The Spacelab could be enabled to perform military missions either by outfitting the main cabin or by attaching one or more Shenzhou orbital modules equipped with military systems. Thus equipped, a Chinese “Spacelab� could be variously configured to support surveillance missions, or to deploy micro satellites, or small missiles, to perform anti-satellite missions.

China could also use the larger cabin of the Spacelab as the base for additional modules that would in turn be connected by smaller modules that would host docking ports or solar power arrays. This concept approaches the former European Space Agency concept for a space station, that was superseded by the International Space Station. At the 2000 Zhuhai show a representative from Europe’s Astrium space technology company noted that the Chinese were very interested in the ESA space station concept.[24] based on multiple linked small modules. Such a concept would allow the Chinese to attach or detach modules with a concentration of military functions depending on need. In addition, there are indications that the Chinese are also investigating significantly larger space stations, and have built at least one mock-up to support this ambition. China has also investigated the purchase of new technology fabric-based inflatable space station modules recently proposed by the U.S. Bigelow Company. “We talked to the Chinese on a confidential basis, and they indicated they are thinking seriously about opening their program to space commercialization,� said founder Robert T. Bigelow to Aviation Week and Space Technology in July 2004.[25] Such technology could also form an potential inexpensive way for the PLA to expand its Spacelab platform to better perform military missions, or to more efficiently enable larger military space stations.

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms06a.jpg

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms06b.jpg
Larger Space Station Concepts: China has investigated a space station concept influenced by a defunct European proposal, displayed at the 2000 Hannover Exhibition, and may also be working on a mock-up for a much larger space station concept.

Moon Exploration Ambitions

In March 2003 China announced its “Chang’e,� Moon exploration program, named after an ancient folk-tale fairy princess who flies to the Moon. The program likely began in the early to mid-1990s and is now planned to have three stages. By 2007 China intends to launch Chang’e-1, a lunar satellite that will provide 3-D Moon images. By 2010 China intends to send a lander to the Moon’s surface that will then deploy a robot exploration vehicle. Work on this vehicle is already well underway. And then by 2020, according to open reports, China will send a lander equipped to a return Moon surface samples to China. There are apparently some in China who question their governments expensive replication of what the U.S. was able to do better with its manned Moon missions.[25] Such efforts might be justified if China also had an active manned Moon program, which has not been announced, but may still be secretly underway. But this effort would also benefit possible PLA ambitions to use the Moon for military missions. These might include setting up an unmanned surveillance facility designed to track U.S. and other deep-space military platforms.

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/20051010_MS07a.JPG
China’s Chang’e Moon Lander: This image of a future Chinese moon lander and robot vehicle was on display at the November 2004 Zhuhai Airshow. While some Chinese question the expense and redundancy of this effort, from a PLA perspective it might be justified, if it were to lead to Moon-based surveillance capabilities. Source: RD Fisher

American and Russian Manned Military Space Record

The United States created the National Air and Space Administration (NASA) in 1958 as a separate government agency, apart from the Department of Defense (DoD), to manage space activities, especially manned space exploration. There is of course, great cooperation between NASA and DoD, but NASA remains firmly in civilian control. For example, the U.S. Strategic Command, which controls U.S. military space and deterrent capabilities, provided extensive support to enable NASA’s return mission of the Space Shuttle Discovery in July 2005.[27] In the late 1950s the U.S. began to develop what in 1963 became the Manned Orbital Laboratory (MOL) that envisioned combining scientific and military applications, such a space surveillance and space combat.[28] However, this program was cancelled in 1969 and the U.S. has never since build dedicated manned military space vehicles.

While the former Soviet Union was accused of pursuing manned military space programs during the Cold War, the extent of its programs for manned military surveillance and combat were not revealed until after the end of the Cold War. An early review of post-Soviet sources by Steven Zaloga served to detail the extent of these programs, to include the use of missile-firing satellites and space combat planes.[29] More recently, the Russian company NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPO Mash) issued a history of its programs to mark its 6th anniversary.[30] The programs described, along with anecdotes provided by NPO Mash employees at the 2005 Moscow Airshow, make clear that the Soviets had a robust manned and unmanned military space program. In the 1950s NPO Mash founder V.N. Chelomei developed an early space plane whose missions included “interception of artificial earth satellites.�[31] 1961 the Soviets launched a small test version of a manned space interceptor vehicle. And this concept was developed into what became a predecessor of the larger Buran space shuttle, a smaller space shuttle like space plane that could be armed with missiles and other space weapons.[32] A NPO Mash Official went so far as to say weapons were also planned for the Buran space shuttle, to include the deployment of individual armed space-walking Cosmonauts[33]—a vision from the James Bond movie Moonraker.

American and Russian Manned Military Space Record

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/200510101_ms08b.jpg
Soviet and Chinese small space plane concepts: Russia intended to arm their small space planes for orbital combat. Might China be planning the same? The Chinese space plane comes from a single-stage-to-orbit concept developed by the Shenyang Aircraft Company. Source: NPO Machinostroyenia via RD Fisher, Chinese Internet

NPO Mashinostroyenia was also responsible for the development of the Salyut manned space station series, or by its military designation, “Almaz.� Three such military-configured space stations flew: Salyut 2 (1972); Salyut 3 (1974 -75) and Salyut-5 (1976-83).[34] Its main military mission was servicing of film-based reconnaissance cameras and the dropping of small re-entry capsules containing film and other electronic recording media. The Almaz was also the first manned space platform to carry a weapon: a single 23mm cannon configured for space use. It required the reorientation of the whole station in order to aim at an incoming target. Former combat-trained Cosmonauts, who later went to work for NPO Mash, related that the Salyut was designed to withstand combat damage, in the vacuum of space, and still allow them to escape to their re-entry capsule.[35] When asked about the possibility and likelihood that China would follow the example of Soviet example of manned military space capabilities, a NPO official responded “Of course, why not?� The “nature of this regime� makes such a direction possible he said.[36]

http://www.strategycenter.net/imgLib/20051010_MS09a.jpg
Soviet Salyut (Almaz) Military Manned Space Station: Equipped with a 23mm cannon and designed to withstand combat damage in the vacuum of space. Source: NPO Mashinostroyenia via RD Fisher

[MIGleader]

why would anyone wnt to fight in outer space? many fighters already have a sattelite killing ability. unless oil was discoverd on mars...:D

[t_co]

hm, please don't fault me for wild speculation here, but I believe that one of the best asat weapons would be an BIG EMP bomb that shuts them down... permanently.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMP

[stonewind]

Hell! wont it be just beautiful to bomb some country with a nuetron bomb from outer space? :nana:

Deploying WMD's from such positions where most countries cannot counter is one big advantage. Further if there was a space sniper cannon (lets say one with 105mm cannon) taking out high prioprity targets would be much easier than sending bombers to dodge enemy radar and A.A. to bomb targets like weapons factories or enemy V.I.P.'s

If its possible man will build it... enough said.

[walter]

here's an article I came across at space.com based on Western analysis of the Chinese space program.

China's Space Aims Strong Despite Lunar Challenges, Expert Says
By Tariq Malik
Staff Writer
posted: 17 November 2005
06:56 am ET

LEAGUE CITY, TX – China’s space program is about three decades from landing astronauts on the Moon, but will make significant strides during that time, according to one expert following the nation’s human spaceflight efforts.

“They’re probably as close to the Moon as we are to Mars,” space policy expert James Lewis said of China Wednesday during the annual meeting here of the American Astronautics Society (AAS). “They say that they’re goal is a lunar base…[but] it’s not a near-term possibility.”

Lewis, a senior fellow and director of technology policy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said China’s lack of a sufficient heavy-lift launch vehicle will require the nation to wait until the development of its Long March 6 rocket – which will follow the yet-to-be completed Long March 5 booster – before a manned lunar flight can take place.

At least three more missions are expected to follow China’s successful Shenzhou 6 spaceflight – the country’s second flight to carry astronauts and its first to launch a two-person crew – which flew in October. Shenzhou 7 is slated to launch three astronauts in 2007, with two more to flights expected before the country’s Shenzhou 10 mission delivers astronauts to a pair of linked orbital modules from Shenzhou 8 and 9 by 2012, Lewis said.

“These capsules, if they do link up, will form a space lab,” Lewis said. “[China’s] goal is to build a permanent space station.”

China’s Shenzhou spacecraft are based on the Russian Soyuz vehicle and consist of a propulsion module, a crew compartment and an orbital module. But the Shenzhou version is larger and can leave its orbital module – which carries its own solar arrays and maneuvering jets – in space for extended periods.

The fact that China selected a Soyuz model – which Russia routinely uses to ferry new crews to the International Space Station (ISS) –for its Shenzhou spacecraft could indicate some foresight of future international cooperation, though near-term partnerships with the U.S. would be difficult due to current political climate, Lewis said.

“China is interested in its independent program and not in being a junior partner,” Lewis said, adding that there are also security concerns due to the military component of China’s space program.

Shenzhou spacecraft launch atop a Long March 2F rocket, though China space officials have said that future Long March 5 boosters could launch up to 28 tons into orbit with a lifting power comparable to Europe’s Ariane 5 vehicle, he added.

But China’s manned expeditions are only part of its spaceflight ambitions to win national prestige and demonstrate technological prowess.

The China National Space Administration plans to launch its first Moon probe - dubbed Chang’e 1 – in 2006, with landers and sample return spacecraft to follow by 2020. The initial Chang’e lunar orbiter will fly on a modified version of a Chinese commercial communications satellite, indicating a smooth flow of technology between commercial and research space industry, Lewis added.

While Chinese space officials have said the Shenzhou 6 mission cost about $110 million – relatively cheap when compared to other national space programs – Lewis said it’s possible the flight cost up to three times that based on past understatements of the nation’s spaceflight costs.

However, China does spend about one-half of 1 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on its space program, and since the nation’s GDP has risen 30 percent since 2002 due to a booming economy, more funding is expected

“They will have a lot more money and are willing to spend it,” Lewis said. “It’s going to be a well-funded program.”

Nothing really new here, but I hadn't heard much about successors to the Long March 2F launcher yet. Also, the analyst doesn't seem to think Chinese will be on the moon by 2020 or even 2025, as many have claimed so far--he seems to think 2035 is more realistic.

[MIGleader]

how long was it between america's first space flight and landing? less than 15 years. so china should have a man on the moon by 2020. but it would be a monumentaly difficult task, seeing how amrica has been the only nation to land so far...not even russia has made it.

[ahho]

Hell! wont it be just beautiful to bomb some country with a nuetron bomb from outer space? :nana:

Deploying WMD's from such positions where most countries cannot counter is one big advantage. Further if there was a space sniper cannon (lets say one with 105mm cannon) taking out high prioprity targets would be much easier than sending bombers to dodge enemy radar and A.A. to bomb targets like weapons factories or enemy V.I.P.'s

If its possible man will build it... enough said.

well there is a possibility that the bomb come back down to the country who delivers it. You know that space is full of uncertainty

[Dongfeng]

Why do you want weapon in space? Well, ask youself why someone would fight in the sky in the first place.

Just like the aeroplanes brought the warfare to the third dimension, the space warfare will bring the warfare to a new front. In space you can deploy a lot of spacecraft for surveillance, navigations, and communications. They are not affected by weather conditions, and work 24/7. Also they are out of reach for most land/sea-based air defence system. As you can see in the two Gulf Wars, the U.S.-led coliation forces enjoyed the huge advantages to the Iraqis in this field.

It is not surprising that warfare will gradually extend to the space. For a country with less advaced space-based sensors, at least it can do is to destroy all sensors in space so that two sides are equally blind and deaf. Image if someone managed to sabotage the U.S. satellite communication and GPS systems, how would U.S. armed forces perform in a war like that?

The U.S. knows that it will be inevitable, so it continues to develop new system to keep its advantage in this field over other countries. Something I've heard that is currently under development is the next generation aerospace plane bomber. The aircraft can take off like normall aircraft and fly at the edge of atmosphere. The aircraft could travel at a speed of up to Mach 12. It flies so high that no fighter/missile can touch it,a nd it flies so fast that it can reach anywhere in the world within hours, thus no need for overseas bases. A bomber like that will not need to worry about stealth since you cannot do anything even if you detect it.

So space warfare is that far away after all.

As to China, I don't believe that the current Project 921/ShenZhou has a clear military target, even though it is operated by the PLA and has some potential for military use. At moment China's biggest challenge is still to make sure that astronauts are sent to space and then return safely, as well as carrying out tasks like space docking and walking. At this stage China is unlikely going to add too many extra tasks to make things complicated. Once China is fully proficient in manned spaceflight and other spacecraft technology, it might then seek more military uses in space. At moment, it is still pretty much a scientific project.

[darth sidious]

there is weapon is space. the Russian ones mounted a 23mm airciaft cannon for the purpose of destorying American satellite and self defence.

[walter]

there is weapon is space. the Russian ones mounted a 23mm airciaft cannon for the purpose of destorying American satellite and self defence.

okay, I believe it because darth sidious says so. Seriously though, that would have started an arms race in space, and so far no one seems to think the US has a weapons system in space. If the USSR really had deployed something like that in space I think we would have heard at least rumors. This is the first I have ever heard that--a source would be nice to back it up.

[bd popeye]

there is weapon is space. the Russian ones mounted a 23mm airciaft cannon for the purpose of destorying American satellite and self defence.

Darth Sidious, dude, are you trying to play a Jedi mind trick on us?:) I know in the universe that you live in there are weapons in space!:)

All kidding aside, In reality in this forum it is esential that you post some proof to your claims or the moderators will delete your post. BS is not tolerated.

I myself have never heard of any weapons in space. Only rumours. If you do indeed have some factual information please post it!

I'm sure some would consider military sattlites as weapons. But none that I know of have actual weapons attached.

[darth sidious]

I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time you will call me... 'Master

THere was weapon in spaceThe weapon ws diasmontaled beacuse the RUssian signed some treaty that do not allow them to do so but before that it destoryed a dummy satellite proveing its effectiveness right now its proboly siting in a Russian junk yard google on that topic and you will find answer that was a long time ago eg in tha 70s

[Dongfeng]

I will not be surprised to see that Russians or Amercians trying to put some sort of weapon in space during the cold war age. However, would a 23mm cannon work in space? I very much doubt it. There are many conspiracy theory out there such as moon landing hoax and you cannot say it is true simply because you found 'something' with Google.

[chinawhite]

Dongfeng,

Why wouldn't a cannon work in space. I am assuming that a projectile would have a increased velocity since there is no friction around it.

[darth sidious]

dongfeng

I think the cannon would work better in space beacuse there is no resistance and the pulposion would still be the same gun powder as for the cannon its self is the same on as that of those used on the late MIG-21/23 agin its a long time ago and preety well documented


"Use your aggressive feelings boy... let the hate flow through you."

[PiSigma]

from a physics point of view, a cannon would work. but to fire a single shell or projectile, a large of amount of energy would be needed to keep the cannon in place. remember Newton's third law of motion --> "for every motion, there's an equal and opposite reaction." or like some engineers like to say "for every motion, there's an equal and opposite government policy". but back to physics. that means to fire the shell forward toward earth, you need the cannon itself move back toward outer space with the same acceleration as a function of its mass. F=ma. and it order to keep that cannon in the same location in space, you'll need a rocket or booster to constantly pushing on the cannon to adjust itself so that it doesn't fly into outerspace. and that fuel for boosters will be expensive and hard to ship up, and needs a lot of it if considerate damage is needed by the cannon.
also cannons currently depend on gunpowder. now gunpowder is just a chemical compound that's extremely explosive or from a chemical point of view, oxidizing. which means oxygen is required for it work. i'm not a artillery man, ask Golly. but from theory, if there's no oxygen, your cannon is good as useless. and oxygen is just one of those things missing in outer space.
also the earth's atmosphere is very good at melting things at reentry. so you get a small shell, chances are by the time it reaches the ground it would already by burned into its fundamental elements. so no damage could be done. unless you can thrown something the size of a building onto the planet.
of course other oxidents are also used, ammonium nitrate and potassium nitrate. but still need the oxygen to get it all started as far as i know

[darth sidious]

that cannon has it own oxygen supply so that wont be a problme also the whole system is a experiment and incredible crude also the target would be American satellites so the melting paart is not a problem




"Use your aggressive feelings boy... let the hate flow through you."

[PiSigma]

once again, i'm going to go back to fundamental sciences to answer your question.
1 C(s) + 1 O2(g) --> 1 CO2(g)
that means for every mole of carbon combusted, one mole of oxygen is needed.
this is a unbalanced equation of the reaction of potassium nitrate with sulfur, notice that there's much more than just boom sound involved.
KNO3(s) + C(s) + S(s) -----> N2(g) + CO2(g) + K2S(s)

[darth sidious]

as I menationed before the whole thing was a experiment altho a dummy satellite was destoryed nothing more was head from them later on the cannon was dismontaled the thing probely dident work well or the russian wondent have signed the treaty you dont need uch pulposion beaqcuse you just have to put the shell in odrite to collide with the target



"Use your aggressive feelings boy... let the hate flow through you."

[walter]

Anyone here heard of 'rods from God'? It is an idea to simply "drop" tungsten (will not melt in reentry) rods from orbit on any target of interest. Darth sidious said the supposed russian cannon would be used for attacking other sattellites, not for firing earth bound rounds, so such a system would require some sort of propulsive force, ie an explosive chemical reaction. If however, one wants to rain shells or ordance on earth, no need for the gunpowder. Just a small force to push the projectile in the right direction will lower its energy enough to fall back to earth. A tungsten rod "dropped" from space will have more kinetic energy upon impact of the earth's surface than any artillery shell or guided missle in today's arsenals--the destructive force would be scary.

Anyway, let's hope no one deploys those since it would just cause another huge arms race, but there are some very interesting ideas for the weaponization of space.

[MIGleader]

I will not be surprised to see that Russians or Amercians trying to put some sort of weapon in space during the cold war age. However, would a 23mm cannon work in space? I very much doubt it. There are many conspiracy theory out there such as moon landing hoax and you cannot say it is true simply because you found 'something' with Google.

as a matter of fact...a 23 mm cannon couled be fired, and it would fly forever in space until it hit something, or got sucked in by a gravitational force. as long as the opearting mechanism was actually in a pressurized cabin, a gun could fire in outer space.

[Dongfeng]

Since ChinaWhite has provided evidence, I have unlocked the thread for further discussion

[Fairthought]

It seems several posters owe Darth Sidious an apology. The Soviet Union did indeed test a 23 mm cannon on board an orbiting military space station. Here is the website:

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/almazops.htm


here is a quote from that rather long article:

Primary Almaz systems comprised:
Weapons

Nudelmann NR-23 23 mm (or NR-30 30 mm) cannon. This was a self-defence weapon used for defending the station against interception by American spacecraft. It was an adaptation of a standard Soviet aircraft cannon. Range was from 500 to 3000 m against co-orbital targets. When being fired, station or
Gun sight Sokol-1 (see below)


Sokol-1 PKO Circular Observing Periscope. This panoramic periscope was used for observation of space and earth and for tracking space and surface targets. Magnification 1.5x to 6.0 x; field of view 40 deg to 10 deg; Observation angles: horizontal to +210 deg; vertical -10 deg below to 90 deg (zenith).



farther down in the article:

24 June 1974 Salyut 3 Program: Almaz. Launch Site: Baikonur . Launch Vehicle: Proton 8K82K. Mass: 18,500 kg. Perigee: 213 km. Apogee: 253 km. Inclination: 51.6 deg. Duration: 90.00 days.
First successful Almaz military manned space station flight. Tested a wide array of reconnaissance sensors. Following the successful Soyuz 14 and unsuccessful Soyuz 15 missions, on 23 September 1974 the station ejected a film return capsule. The KSI capsule suffered damage during re-entry but all the film was recoverable. On 24 January 1975 trials of the on-board 23 mm Nudelmann aircraft cannon (other sources say it was a Nudelmann NR-30 30 mm gun) were conducted. The next day the station was commanded to retrofire to a destructive re-entry over the Pacific Ocean. Although only one of three planned crews managed to board the station, that crew did complete the first completely successful Soviet space station flight. Additional Details: Salyut 3 (1678).



It is also funny that someone would mention 'rods from God', as this was also a real space weapon program explored by the US during the 1990's. Information on this is highly confidential. No word on whether it is actually operational. Of course, the US government will refuse to confirm its existence.

[chinawhite]

Anyone think china will develop battleship style space stations? Is sapce really the final frontier?.

here is some information i compiled at some random sites

Russian
23 mm/71.7 (0.91") VYa
145.5 lbs. (66 kg)
With a muzzel velocity of
2,985 - 3,020 fps (910 - 920 mps)
thats just over mach 4!
The craft could use the guns AS thrusters!

Russian
23 mm (0.91") AN-23

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNRussian_23mm_AN-23_pic.jpg

These guns were gas-operated and belt-fed.
The barrel was monoblock with a blade type breech.
The systems was controlled by Ksenon-125 radar.

So I see no reason why it would require manual aiming.
The only manual operation would be the correction of
alignment from shots, and the stabalizers would be
working overtime just to keep the craft stable.
Another reason I don't see this working.

Picture (http://www.army.lv/English/Tehnika/Foto/AA/zu-23%20(2).jpg)

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/almaz_gun_2.jpg

The above weapon, is one used on craft.

I didn't see anything like the such mounted
on the orbital craft. If it is armed they hid
that monster of a weapon well.

Link (http://www.russianspaceweb.com/almaz_ops2.html)

Salyut 3

http://www.skyrocket.de/space/img_sat/salyut-3__1.jpg

11.61 meters long and had a
maximum diameter of 4.15 meters.
Its useful volume totaled 47 cubic meters.

Though some science research was done, the station was
primarily used for military reconnaissance work.
Pavel Popovich, commander of the July 1974 Soyuz 14
flight to Salyut 3, is said to have indicated that the
cannon was installed on Salyut 3 but "fortunately he
was not forced to use it".

Link (http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/spaceguns/)

Salyut 5
Was structurally similar to Salyut 3 and shared the
same official objectives -- test spacecraft systems,
design and equipment and conduct scientific and technological
research and experiments.
Included two solar panels laterally mounted to its center
and a detachable recovery module for returning data and
materials to the ground. Film could be developed and
analyzed in space and returned in the reentry capsules.

Both of their orbits decayed, and they re-entered the atmosphere.

Here is a website with technical details
http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/Almprog/almprog.htm#The%20final%20Almaz%20station%20-%20Salyut%205

End Note

Does china really need to protect her space ships with these cannons. Is america going to abide by her treaties signed with the former soviet union.

China at this momment is still a long way behind in space technology but if the PLA sees it in their interest to have weapons in space it will get weapons in space.

PS: Nice link Fairthought


Regards,

chinawhite

[T-U-P]

just a question: would the shell or the projectile actually make it to earth? wouldn't it melts completely while entering the atmosphere?

is so, then the purpose of having a cannon on a satellite is only to destroy other satellites, which is not worth it's cost IMO.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

A cannon would not work without air, since air is needed to create the explosion/expansion that propels the projectile. Also, the recoil in space would actually move the spacecraft it is attached to, making aiming very, very difficult.

[chinawhite]

This is Not A earth attacking cannon. but a "self-defense" cannon againest other satellites.

The gun is gas powered. THe cannon is attached inside of the space capsule with air. You you guys ever seen a low recoil cannon?. They make a 155mm with minimal reoil.

I must repeat this again. The russians have tested a cannon on the salyut 3 and Sucessfully hit a target. enough said

Regards,

chinawhite

[MIGleader]

A cannon would not work without air, since air is needed to create the explosion/expansion that propels the projectile. Also, the recoil in space would actually move the spacecraft it is attached to, making aiming very, very difficult.

i think the actual action, breech, bolt... of the gun are inside the sattelite. perhaps the barrel is sealed off from ouyter space until the gun is fired.

what i dont know is how the sattelite resists the force of the bullet once fired. once the bullet leaves the barrel, shouldnt its velocity suddenly be split with the sattelite, forciung the sattliet back at 500m per second?

[walter]

i think the actual action, breech, bolt... of the gun are inside the sattelite. perhaps the barrel is sealed off from ouyter space until the gun is fired.

what i dont know is how the sattelite resists the force of the bullet once fired. once the bullet leaves the barrel, shouldnt its velocity suddenly be split with the sattelite, forciung the sattliet back at 500m per second?

not the velocity, but the impuls: mass x velocity. So a multi ton sattelite firing a projectile of a few kilos wouldn't shoot back at the velocity of the projectile but would recoil with the same impulse of the projectile. It could easily correct this with thrusters.

[MIGleader]

not the velocity, but the impuls: mass x velocity. So a multi ton sattelite firing a projectile of a few kilos wouldn't shoot back at the velocity of the projectile but would recoil with the same impulse of the projectile. It could easily correct this with thrusters.

i think its kinetic energy. for ever action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. in space, theres no inertia to stop a multi ton satteite from spinning off from the impact of a force. think of it as if you were on skakes on an ice rink. if you pusjhed something smaller than you, youd still get puched back quite a bit, although gravity would have an effect still.

[Fairthought]

walter is right, it is conservation of momentum.

The mass of the bullets times their change in velocity must be counterbalanced by the mass of the space station times its change in velocity. Since the space station is much more massive, its change in velocity is very small. Attitude jets can easily compensate for any spin caused by the gun, and the station may either speed up or slow down depending upon the direction of fire.

By the way, attitude jets expel nitrogen gas. It is inert and lightwweight, as well as being the primary component of air.

The gun idea was abandoned anyway. Soviet satellites were outfitted with explosives triggered by a proximity fuse in the event the US space shuttle tried to 'nab' a soviet satellite or attach an eavesdropping parasite. It should be pointed out the Soviet navy was extremely vulnerable to this kind of Satellite attack. Their ships depended on satellite communications since the 1970's.

[patriot]

here's an article I came across at space.com based on Western analysis of the Chinese space program.



Nothing really new here, but I hadn't heard much about successors to the Long March 2F launcher yet. Also, the analyst doesn't seem to think Chinese will be on the moon by 2020 or even 2025, as many have claimed so far--he seems to think 2035 is more realistic.

Those Western analysis kept making assumption about China's spending. First they say that our military spends 60 billion three times our stated spending. Now they are saying that we spend three times more on our space program than was stated. Anyone think we really spent that much money.:china:

[WEN?]

according to the Pentagon's Chinese Military Report china spends 90 billion into is military in 2005. also since china is devoloping Anti Sattilite weapons wouldn't it be better to reaserach that and put them onto our own sattilites. i know it is kinda hard but its worth a try.

[Totoro]

And rand study put that figure closer to 50 something billion. Bottom line is: no one knows. Even more bottom line (:D) is: it's what you can get with that money, not the amount itself. Which brings me to this question: are those nominal dollars, when us dod says china spends 90 billion? or are they PPP converted dollars? Cause for sure a dollar in china can buy you more value than a dollar in the US.

[akinkhoo]

It appears the chinese miscalculated the impact of having a manned space program. they were hoping to gain recognition but instead the rest of the spacefaring countries seem unimpressed, only sending congratz but never any shift in policy; in other words, the cooperation china is seeking was simply not there...
:coffee: <-- rest of world :confused: <-- china

i say the leadership of china need understand real world politic and "play the game like a player". USA didn't get respected because of capability, but rather real power. showing off a 5 warship fleet is lame compared to a CVN battlegroup. china should be more humble and build up now rather than showing off it newly found strength like a kid with a new toy. it draws too much attention and cause other to be jelousy while not powerful enough to make it present felt.

oops, going off topic... :o

[walter]

Well, it's probably true the US won't invite the Chinese to participate in any of its near- or midterm projects, and infact from the US standpoint, China's ambitious manned (and unmanned) space program provides a bit of needed impetus to US programs for competitive and national pride reasons.

But I wouldn't say China didn't gain recognition or that other space fairing nations were/are unimpressed. Quite the opposite in my mind. I hope China wasn't expecting an immediate invite to the ISS or anything like that, though. I think other countries are probably quite open to the idea of cooperating with China in space including manned missions, but let's be realistic--China's manned program is just at its beginning. They have much to accomplish, and the rest of the world wants to see more than two manned flights before undertaking any sort joint manned space operation with the Chinese. So I would just say to anyone who expected more at this point to be patient. While any cooperation between NASA and China in manned space operations must be approved by the White House (unlikely), the Europeans and Russians would probably be quite happy to have a Chinese visit at the ISS, or, more likely than the ISS visit, cooperate with them in future manned missions. It will happen, but it will take its due time.

[Roger604]

It appears the chinese miscalculated the impact of having a manned space program. they were hoping to gain recognition but instead the rest of the spacefaring countries seem unimpressed, only sending congratz but never any shift in policy; in other words, the cooperation china is seeking was simply not there...
:coffee: <-- rest of world :confused: <-- china

i say the leadership of china need understand real world politic and "play the game like a player". USA didn't get respected because of capability, but rather real power. showing off a 5 warship fleet is lame compared to a CVN battlegroup. china should be more humble and build up now rather than showing off it newly found strength like a kid with a new toy. it draws too much attention and cause other to be jelousy while not powerful enough to make it present felt.

oops, going off topic... :o

You greatly miscalculate!!! China is a country that is particularly susceptible to 'morale effects.' By this I mean that when people perceive the country is weak, they jump ship rather quickly. One could argue that every single overseas Chinese (or their ancestors) jumped ship at one point or another. When people perceive the country is strong, they bandwagon and support the motherland again.

If the current pulse of optimism falters, people would resume working for and trying to curry favor with the "old master"... the developed western countries.

Never forgot that China's soft-power is extremely weak. Imagine how much more powerful China would be if we had a true analogue to Hollywood... if we could ship our culture all over the world and have people falling all over themselves to come to China to work at near-slave labor wages.

THIS is what the space program is about: boosting the morale and demonstrating to "the people" what the modernization project has accomplished. People are autonomous, thinking beings... you just can't order Chinese people to "modernize the country" and then keep them in the dark about everything. And then quietly store your strength for the day when you pull a Sun-Tzu.

You could argue that America's REAL strength is built entirely on its PERCEIVED strength. The perception attracts people and capital and that in turn makes the perception a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[PLAfan]

Really, we haven't been to the moon since 1974. This is a shame. US doesn't plan to go back there until 2020.

When will Chinese technology bring the first Chinese person to the moon?

[Sea Dog]

It's hard to tell how fast China's space program will progress. And what steps they will take if they choose the moon as a goal. Hard estimates are difficult to assess simply because they've only had two manned flights so far. If you are asking for guesses, I think I'll take 2030 as an estimate.

BTW, the last man to stand on the moon was U.S. astronaut Eugene Cernan (USN) in 1972. The U.S. is currently looking at designing a rocket called ARES-1 that is bigger and more powerful than Saturn-V. President Bush actually set the date for a return to the moon at 2018 as a goal.

[LiLaZnMaGiCsCt]

It's hard to tell how fast China's space program will progress. And what steps they will take if they choose the moon as a goal. Hard estimates are difficult to assess simply because they've only had two manned flights so far. If you are asking for guesses, I think I'll take 2030 as an estimate.

BTW, the last man to stand on the moon was U.S. astronaut Eugene Cernan (USN) in 1972. The U.S. is currently looking at designing a rocket called ARES-1 that is bigger and more powerful than Saturn-V. President Bush actually set the date for a return to the moon at 2018 as a goal.

I read from a report in Yahoo! News (can't find the link now) that Chinese military academy officials predict that China will reach the moon by 2018-2020.

[Sea Dog]

If they achieve this, I say good for them. What's interesting is China's next step. Aren't they looking on putting a docking vehicle up to practice rendevouz and docking?

[Finn McCool]

Space is the future, and there is no better way to get there faster than through competition. Unfortunetly, we (the human race) have lost so much ground in the area of manned space flight that we might lose the will to continue before we actually push the boundries of exploration. That is why I hope the Chinese beat the US to the moon, because it will motivate the US to go farther and thus better all of mankind.

[Sea Dog]

Space is the future, and there is no better way to get there faster than through competition. Unfortunetly, we (the human race) have lost so much ground in the area of manned space flight that we might lose the will to continue before we actually push the boundries of exploration. That is why I hope the Chinese beat the US to the moon, because it will motivate the US to go farther and thus better all of mankind.

Uh. The U.S. has already been to the moon. The U.S. has already beaten everyone there. :D

But yeah. You're right. Competition is good. I'm actually hoping for a future of cooperation in manned spaceflight. I actually think we as humans could accomplish alot more in space exploration with shared resources, and a cooperative approach. But I do also think that's a few decades off.

[AssassinsMace]

One step at a time.

While international rivals make it look that China is in some sort of space race, China should be commended at working at a pragmatic pace.

China should stop complaining about not being included in the International Space Station and just concentrate first on their own. A Chinese space station will make it easier for missions beyond Earth's orbit.

[swimmerXC]

Space is the future, and there is no better way to get there faster than through competition.

Why explore space when hardly no country has the technology to send a man to the deepest part of the ocean, we barely know anything about the oceans those scienctist just strached the surface :coffee:

[Finn McCool]

Because as I said, space is the future, not the bottom of the ocean.

[PiSigma]

the bottom of the ocean could be the future if they find a cheap energy source to power the world. and produce lots of other resources we want.. then u'll start seeing people investing in researching tech to build cities under the ocean. it's not about what's the future, it's about where resources could be found. we know that the moon have He-3, which is one of the reasons why people want to go there, because it's a good energy source. and outer space offer more living space. if ocean floor can offer that same, people would spend a lot more money on the R&D of it too.

[Cygnus X-1]

The first phase of China's lunar program is to send unmanned craft to the moon. This is an achieveable goal because the technology has been around for 40 years and the physics have been around for centuries. Besides, it is much safer and economical to send unmanned craft to the moon. This phase could be done as soon as 2010!

If your talking about sending a man to the moon (which I suspect you are) then that will take longer because the next phase would be to send 'robots' probably similar to the Mars exploration rovers. This could be done around 2012-2015

The final phase would then be to send a 'Taikonaut' - how long that will take is anybody's guess really. I hope it will be before 2020 :china:

[adeptitus]

China's space program is very conservative, expect to see several unmanned test flights before an actual manned mission is sent up. Depending on your point of view, you could say they value human life over $, or that they want to make sure the manned flight would be successful for good PR (public relations).

As for space vs. the ocean, 71% of our planet's surface is covered by the sea. It's generally much cheaper to expand into the sea than to space. It's possible to build sea colonies powered by OTEC (ocean thermal energy conversion), which also supplies fresh water for hydroponics, plus aquaculture at sea. However the cost is too high at present time. Space colonization would be even more costly. $_$

It's more "cost effective" to expand into low-density desert areas on land right now. Personally, I'm betting the bank on cheap desert land for my retirement. Cross my fingers that urban sprawl would go there and make the land valuable in 10-20 years!

[Tassadar]

Because as I said, space is the future, not the bottom of the ocean.

Hey, I really like the saying, makes you sound like a prophet :rofl:

Jokes aside, I agree that the future of mankind is in space. However, I do want to make a point that the problem of energy seems to be the choke point for many problems right now. I guess, if we could somehow master the technology of fusion, the exploration of moon and future space exploration will be justified(more practically) and propelled.

[DarkEminence]

Hmm...:coffee:

What is more militarily feasible? I have always thought objects in space were much more practical in military terms (it's hard to shoot down an object that can revolve around the earth in 90 minutes...too fast)? And an underwater base can only move as fast as 1 foot a year (and that is pushing it).

[DPRKPTboat]

If they achieve this, I say good for them. What's interesting is China's next step. Aren't they looking on putting a docking vehicle up to practice rendevouz and docking?

The next manned mission due to be launched is Shenzhou 7, which will fly solo in 2008. Word on the internet isd that it will carry three taikonauts and a spacewalk will be carried out. Shenzhou 8 is the docking vehicle you mentioned, with the ability to have two Shenzhous docked to it either side. It could be expanded to a space station. Here are my sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhou_7

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhou_8

And here is something about how Shenzhou 8 could be expanded to a space station. I had my own thread for that, but people seem to have forgotten it now:

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/China_Might_Be_Planning_Early_Space_Station_Attemp t.html


But Chenghe 1 is going ot be China's first moon mission, and will be launched next year. But i've read a BBC article which says that all Chinese craft sent to the moon will be designated as Chenghe, and that the Chinese lunar programme is getting assistance from British scientists. Heres the article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4782881.stm

And heres one on that moon mission:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4146226.stm

[tphuang]

If they achieve this, I say good for them. What's interesting is China's next step. Aren't they looking on putting a docking vehicle up to practice rendevouz and docking?
they have a long list of goes. I think if you google up china moon, you might find the articles that listed them. Your original estimate of 2030 is probably right had they just went alone. I'm guessing they are getting a lot of help from the Russians and that really does speed up the process. In many way, since the Russians themselves never landed on the move, we can look at the first China landing as the first "Eastern bloc" landing in a way.

[DPRKPTboat]

they have a long list of goes. I think if you google up china moon, you might find the articles that listed them. Your original estimate of 2030 is probably right had they just went alone. I'm guessing they are getting a lot of help from the Russians and that really does speed up the process. In many way, since the Russians themselves never landed on the move, we can look at the first China landing as the first "Eastern bloc" landing in a way.

In 2002, China denied that they had any plans to make a manned landing on the moon. But, according to the article I posted about the Chenghe (if anyone bothered to look at it) the probe after that, Chenghe 2, will make a soft landing on the moon, so it said. But realistically, I don't see China beating the U.S. to the moon any time soon. They just don't have a rocket powerful enough at the moment, and even if they were developing one, it would take years to conceive - if it was rushed, then it would end up like the Soviet N-1 booster did. And China certainly doesn't want that. The U.S., on the other hand, already has a design for its moon mission, and has openly shown it. China has so far not shown any plans or concepts for such a mission.
But, it is possible that China doesn't really care about competition and may land on the moon after America does nontheless. But by the time they do, the U.S. will probably be planning a mission to mars.

[tphuang]

more space news.


By Bradley Cook
Sept. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Russia and China will sign an
accord to jointly explore the Moon, RIA Novosti reported, citing
Russian Space Agency chief Anatoly Perminov.
The agreement will be signed as early as this year,
Perminov told the official Russian news service. China is also
planning to join a Russian project to explore Phobos and bring
soil from that Martian moon back to Earth, RIA said.
China, Russia and the U.S. are the only countries
``intensively'' exploring space at the moment, Perminov said,
according to the news service. In 2003 China became the third
country to put a man into space aboard its own rocket, after
Russia and the U.S.

[Vlad Plasmius]

China is being pretty ambitious, though. They're conducting far fewer in-space missions so achieving a manned-moon landing as only the second country to do so and doing so with far less preparation would be pretty important.

[eric chu]

Ｉthink　Ｃhina　has　been　developing an independent space technology,peacefully and efficiently,American should abandon hostile attitude towards china,admiting China joining in the programme of the international space station,China should cooperate with America flying to moon,Ithink it is good for the peace of the whole world

[sumdud]

???
Going to the Moon is of no physical value, yes. But if that is so, why did America go to the Moon? Why did the USSR try? It's a trumph to do so. It is for spirit, for honor. It also helps in practicing for missions farther out.

[Vlad Plasmius]

What do they have to gain out of it?

*cough* Helium 3 *cough*

[DPRKPTboat]

If China is going to gain Helium 3, then it will probably have to find land on the moon where it can build its own moonbase to mine it, seperate from the American moonbase that may have already been established by time it does. Then that will mean that different parts of the moon will be controlled by America, China, and maybe Russia, each with their own colonies. It would be like the European colonisation of America when it was first discovered.

[FuManChu]

I don't believe China, or any other country, can mine resources from celestial bodies unilaterally. UN regulations specify that the ownership and use of "space" (both celestial bodies and the bits in between) has to be for the benefit for all countries. That indicates that anything mined/whatever would have to be divied up.

If a country like the US or China started sucking the moon dry of resources and took them back home to use there, it would cause massive political tension across the world - potentially leading to another world war.

So China should consider what the real benefits of going to the Moon are. At the moment I think the calls/rumours for a manned-mission are a bit of flag-waving, much-like the American plan to go back (because the Chinese can't go before the US goes again). What I would much prefer to see is more international co-operation to design new spacecraft and means of propulsion. Competition can spark change, but it can also force people losing sight of the bigger picture by engaging in pointless races and missing opportunities to make real advancements.

[Vlad Plasmius]

I don't believe China, or any other country, can mine resources from celestial bodies unilaterally. UN regulations specify that the ownership and use of "space" (both celestial bodies and the bits in between) has to be for the benefit for all countries. That indicates that anything mined/whatever would have to be divied up.

Ha. Who's going to stop them? Really, we in the U.S. have already shown a pretty blatant disregard of the U.N.'s resolutions and regulations. China and Russia are no different. Has anyone come out and called us on it in any real way? Nope.

Not to mention there are ways for them to pursue unilateral actions and still find a way of making it "for the benefit of all". Just get a few of their legal experts together so they can find themselves a nice little loophole.

If a country like the US or China started sucking the moon dry of resources and took them back home to use there, it would cause massive political tension across the world - potentially leading to another world war.

Well, then these powerful countries with their global navies and superior air forces will just cut the oil spigot off from anyone still using it and objecting to any of them not sharing the love. "Sorry, you want Helium 3 you have to go get it yourself."

Global cooperation is a pipe dream.

[FuManChu]

Ha. Who's going to stop them? Really, we in the U.S. have already shown a pretty blatant disregard of the U.N.'s resolutions and regulations. China and Russia are no different. Has anyone come out and called us on it in any real way? Nope.

No violation of UN law by a permanent member of the UNSC has been of as great as importance as the mining of resources in our Solar System. People won't do much about a country like Iraq being attacked, but they will over future means to sustain their own survival.

Well, then these powerful countries with their global navies and superior air forces will just cut the oil spigot off from anyone still using it and objecting to any of them not sharing the love.

Who's to say all three players will get there at the same time? It's much more realistic that a single power like the US will get there first and start operations. Then the others would start screaming and banging on the table like there was no tomorrow.

Besides, do you really think they'd work together to screw over everyone else? No way. They'd back their own allies against the others.

Global cooperation is a pipe dream.

Then humanity won't survive long, because without co-operation it will rip itself apart in the coming decades/centuries. Anyone who survived would have a pretty miserable existence. Perhaps the future would be brighter if people actively encouraged humanity working together, rather than just make jaded comments......

[Vlad Plasmius]

No violation of UN law by a permanent member of the UNSC has been of as great as importance as the mining of resources in our Solar System. People won't do much about a country like Iraq being attacked, but they will over future means to sustain their own survival.

Well, what are they gonna do? I believe it was Scott Adams who described how in his perfect society all but one of the guns in the world would be destroyed and that would be his gun. That way, if anyone wanted to question him they'd have to remember he has the only gun.

If anyone wants to question China or the U.S., they'll just cut them off from whatever their source is. Any nation powerful enough to be a threat would be highly dependant on foreign sources of energy. Any that aren't, well, they probably won't even care.

Who's to say all three players will get there at the same time? It's much more realistic that a single power like the US will get there first and start operations. Then the others would start screaming and banging on the table like there was no tomorrow.

I don't know, we don't really have the same tenacity as China. Almost like we've lost our passion for space. I think China is more likely to end up there by the time they plan than we are. However, I imagine there won't be a very large gap in time. Russia may get up there pretty quick too. They have far more experience than China so it won't take them as long after deciding to go to the Moon. Europe will probably be last, though they also may get up there around the same time, don't know.

Besides, do you really think they'd work together to screw over everyone else? No way. They'd back their own allies against the others.

Exactly. Each would hand out to whoever they liked, but cut off those they don't. It would be under the pretext of giving it to everyone, but politicized and turned into a competition. China would try to win favor by using its energy sources, we'd try to do win favor with ours, and Russia would do the same.

Then humanity won't survive long, because without co-operation it will rip itself apart in the coming decades/centuries. Anyone who survived would have a pretty miserable existence. Perhaps the future would be brighter if people actively encouraged humanity working together, rather than just make jaded comments......

Actually, our general lack of desire to cooperate with everyone has been the main reason for our development. Right now humanity has no real reason to develop except to show up the Joneses as it were. We first went to the moon because we wanted to rub it in the Soviets' noses. Now we want to beat the commies again, except now we have a reason to keep going after only a few visits.

[bd popeye]

Space co-operation? Of course :) . according to this article in April 2006 NASA invited the PRC to take part next week in an invitation-only Exploration Strategy Workshop to be held in Washington.:) Maybe something we don't know about was discussed to make space exploration benifical for the whole Earth.


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12408875/

NASA has asked the China National Space Administration to take part next week in an invitation-only Exploration Strategy Workshop to be held in Washington.

The confab is seen by NASA as the first step in a series of activities planned for 2006 that will focus on defining a global space exploration strategy for robotic and human lunar exploration, including the role of the moon as a stepping stone to Mars and other destinations. This event will bring together representatives from a broad range of communities to work in multidisciplinary teams, exchanging ideas on the strategy for exploration.

The workshop is an outgrowth from President Bush’s visionary agenda for exploration of the moon, Mars, and beyond — a task he gave NASA in January 2004.

“Consistent with the vision’s mandate to pursue international cooperation, we are hosting 13 international space agencies, including China’s, next week at an exploration workshop,” said Melissa Mathews, spokeswoman for NASA's Office of External Relations.

NASA Administrator Mike Griffin was invited to visit China earlier this month by the China National Space Administration, Mathews said, and NASA is considering the invitation. “As for dates, there’s nothing more specific than ‘fall’ to report to you at this point,” she told Space.com.

Regarding where things stand today in terms of NASA’s cooperation with China, Mathews said: “Generally speaking, NASA is constrained in its ability to discuss new civil space cooperation with China until China addresses issues of concern to the U.S. government. Our current involvement with China is limited and consists of such things as low-level Earth science exchanges of data. There is no human spaceflight-related cooperation under consideration at this time.”

Cooperative agreements
On Thursday, Chinese President Hu Jintao was meeting with President Bush at the White House.

As a prelude to President Hu’s visit, the United States and the People’s Republic of China on Tuesday signed a protocol that extends for five years a number of bilateral science and technology cooperative agreements.

The protocol agreement was signed by John Marburger, presidential science adviser and director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy; and Xu Guanha, China’s minister of science and technology.

“The extension enables the continuation of the ongoing exchange of scientific and technical knowledge, the pursuit of advanced and applied scientific and technical projects, and the augmentation of scientific and technical capabilities,” according to a U.S. State Department fact sheet. Areas identified for continued and potential future cooperation include:

Fisheries
Emerging and infectious diseases, such as avian influenza and HIV/AIDS
Earth and atmospheric sciences
Basic research in physics, chemistry and agriculture
A variety of energy-related areas
Geology
Health
Civil industrial technology
Disaster research
Roster of space projects
It's not clear how many of these areas may benefit by increased U.S.-China space cooperation, but China does have an impressive roster of satellite projects in the works.

At the recent 22nd National Space Symposium in Colorado Springs, Colo., Luo Ge, vice administrator of the Chinese space agency, noted that in the next five to eight years, his country will be launching about 100 satellites, including meteorological and Earth remote sensing craft, as well as constellations of Earth-observing and disaster mitigation spacecraft.

Luo also spotlighted China’s multi-step program for lunar exploration, which is being kick-started next year by that country’s first lunar orbiter mission. By 2012, he said, China space planners will be landing a rover on the moon surface. And in 2017, the lunar exploration plans call for robotic lunar sample return.

Regarding the opening of a window in U.S.-China space cooperation, there are indications, slight they may be, of a potential — yet small — change in policy, said a leading China space watcher, Joan Johnson-Freese, chairwoman of the Department of National Security Studies at the Naval War College in Newport, R.I.

“I am cautiously optimistic, which is more optimistic than I’ve been in the past,” Johnson-Freese told Space.com in an earlier interview.

Security dilemma
U.S.-China space relations are a classic security dilemma, where two states are drawn toward conflict though neither really wants it, Johnson-Freese explained. The reasons are fairly straightforward and strongly influenced by the technology involved, Johnson-Freese suggested.

“Specifically, there is no distinction between space technology for civil or military use, since 95 percent of space technology is dual-use, and further — and really problematic — there is often little or no distinction between military technology that is offensive or defensive in nature,” Johnson-Freese explained. “So, fear of being exploited drives countries to view actions of others in zero-sum terms.”

All this is further exacerbated when there is a predisposition by one state to view the other as an adversary, or even a “potential” adversary. While strategically the United States talks about working with China, there are still other voices that talk about China as a potential near-peer competitor, due to Taiwan, the growth of China's military, resource competition and other issues of alarm, Johnson-Freese explained.

All that said, she added: “It is very likely that the lens through which the U.S. — as the currently dominant space power — will view any expansion of Chinese space power will be a military one.”

Security dilemmas, Johnson-Freese remarked, are by their nature difficult to deal with, but not impossible. She saw good signs in the recent visit of the bipartisan congressional delegation to China and talks about potential space cooperation in areas like astronaut rescue and environmental monitoring.

However, a change of policy to include cooperative space activities is still a White House call, Johnson-Freese said. A first step on this path, she counseled, is simply understanding the Chinese better and allowing them to know Americans better through dialogue

[Sea Dog]

Global cooperation is a pipe dream.

I don't believe that at all. I think there is a more concerted effort to bring more participants into the ISS for scientific and technical space cooperation right now. Based on the article above, the USA is looking to foster some sort of cooperation with China in space.

I do believe China has a national goal of a manned mission to the moon. It would be good if cooperation got many participants to field a lunar base much inn the same spirit as ISS. I certainly believe that's doable.

[Vlad Plasmius]

I don't believe that at all. I think there is a more concerted effort to bring more participants into the ISS for scientific and technical space cooperation right now. Based on the article above, the USA is looking to foster some sort of cooperation with China in space.

There are desires to cooperate, but every nation has its own goals and sees its own personal development as a status symbol. Many groups and nations have plans for their own actions in space.

I do believe China has a national goal of a manned mission to the moon. It would be good if cooperation got many participants to field a lunar base much inn the same spirit as ISS. I certainly believe that's doable.

Unlikely, though it is doable.

[oringo]

There is another potential reason for us to go to the moon. That is, to use moon as a stepping stone for landing on other planets such as Mars. Launching from the moon is a lot easier than launching from the earth. There are plenty of materials on the moon that can be mined to produce fuel and other necessities. There are also possibilities that moon contains water ice on the dark side. If we establish a moon base that can automatically mine the materials, then we can launch Mars-bound supply ships from the moon, and astronaut-carrying vessels from the earth or ISS.:nana:

[BLUEJACKET]

China confirms Moon probe in 2007
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6423323.stm

Before it was a race betw. US & USSR, now it's former CW adversaries plus several other countries (http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/8555/1066/)!

[maozedong]

http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/p/2007-03-13/U2142P27T1D434753F3DT20070313080051.jpg


The expert called China can deliver in 15 years the astronaut Moon http://www.sina.com.cn on March 06, 2007 09:09 New China net New China net Beijing, March 6 - (Reporter Wang Yang) nation commissar of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, Chinese man-in-space flight project booster system original commander in chief Huang Chunping on 6th said, China has had in 15 years delivers the astronaut the Moon the technical ability. Huang Chunping once held the post of China launch vehicle technical institute vice-president, he when accepted Xinhua News Agency reporter the interview said, arrived, the project in the fund on time starts and so on under the ideal condition, China completely had the ability to escort to in 15 years man-in-space flight the Moon.

[a.rahman]

the bottom of the ocean could be the future if they find a cheap energy source to power the world. and produce lots of other resources we want.. then u'll start seeing people investing in researching tech to build cities under the ocean. it's not about what's the future, it's about where resources could be found. we know that the moon have He-3, which is one of the reasons why people want to go there, because it's a good energy source. and outer space offer more living space. if ocean floor can offer that same, people would spend a lot more money on the R&D of it too.

I am guessing that He-3 is some kind of helium isotope; but what will it be used for? and will it be economical for the space ship to bring back natural resources from the moon?

[Scratch]

I am guessing that He-3 is some kind of helium isotope; but what will it be used for? and will it be economical for the space ship to bring back natural resources from the moon?

He-3 could be used in nuclear fusion research and later in the power plants for example. Bringing natural resources down on earth might at first be just for scientific purposes, since it is very expensive.
In a further future however (and I might some decades at least) it might become economical to "import" resources from the moon for production. That will raise the interesting question of who has the rights.
I think according to UN the moon is a "heritage of mankind" (not sure of english expression). Then one can ask how those resources are to be shared.
But that's probably not the point of this topic.

[BLUEJACKET]

http://www.atimes.com

China reaching for the moon
By Antoaneta Bezlova

BEIJING - When a People's Liberation Army (PLA) missile in January destroyed an obsolete Chinese weather satellite, the experiment revealed space capabilities that had until then been a carefully kept secret. Undaunted by the diplomatic uproar the test created, Beijing has taken another step in spelling out its space ambitions.

China's top military defense planning body has for the first time unveiled an ambitious blueprint for developing space science, which although defined as civilian research could be applied formilitary uses.

Top on the list of the country's space projects are a lunar satellite probe that will orbit the moon this year, followed by a remote-controlled lunar rover in three years. Other featured projects include a joint unmanned mission to Mars with Russia and the launch of the world's most advanced hard X-ray modulation telescope by 2010.

The space agenda was released by the Commission of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense - China's secretive military industry planning body - last weekend, while Chinese legislators were meeting in Beijing to map the country's economic course. The document promised that the country would focus on innovation and sustainability of space-science development to "serve the national economy and security".

A project of political prestige above all, China's space program is believed to cost about US$2 billion annually. But despite its modest budget (in comparison, the 2006 budget of the United States' space agency, the National Aeronautic and Space Administration, was $16 billion), experts believe China's progress in mastering space technology has been remarkable, not least because the country has been forced to go it alone.

True, China's manned space flights in 2003 and 2005 were meant primarily as symbolic messages to the world that by projecting its technological and economic power the country is a force to be taken seriously.

Since then, however, a string of successful commercial or government satellite launches have reaffirmed China's space ambitions. After languishing for years in the absence of foreign clients, China's satellite-launch industry experienced nothing short of a boom in 2006, when a record eight launches were completed.
Chinese engineers are now busy preparing for Shenzhou VII, China's third manned space foray, planned for next year. Officials say the mission's astronauts will perform another first - walking in space.

Of more immediate significance is China's plan to fast-track its lunar-exploration program by launching a moon orbiter this year. This is to be followed by a second-phase project involving unmanned lunar landers.

Further missions set for 2012-17 will involve collecting and returning lunar samples to Earth.

China's goal to land astronauts on the moon can surely be achieved in 15 years, Huang Chunping, former commander-of-chief of the launch-vehicle system of the country's manned space mission, told the media last week.

Another leading space scientist, however, admitted that China is still a long way from perfecting the technology to land astronauts on the moon. The main technological challenge is the low thrust of Chinese rockets.

"Moon landing needs a rocket with 3,000-4,000 tons of thrust, but currently the most powerful thrust carrier rocket is at around 600 tons," Luan Enjie, chief commander of the country's lunar-exploration program, said last week.

Nevertheless, Beijing is working on a new generation of carrier rocket, designed to launch a space station. According to Huan, the new launch vehicle - Long March-5 - will be capable of hauling 25 tons of payload, a significant increase from the current-generation vehicle, which has capacity of only 9 tons.

If realized, China's moon ambitions would put the country in the same league as the world's two space-technology giants, Russia and the United States.

That much was evident already when China fired an anti-satellite (ASAT) test missile this year, proving that it has mastered the technology pioneered by the US and Russia in the mid-1980s.

When speaking about the efforts China has invested in developing its lunar program, government officials often like to emphasize the fact that many of its milestones were reached single-handedly.

Some 10,000 experts and technicians took part in developing the lunar orbiter - named Chang'e after a Chinese folk-tale moon fairy, Luan Enjie told the media last week.

"Starting from scratch, we developed the Chang'e-I lunar orbiter and the whole subsidiary project by ourselves within three years," he said.

The stress on doing it alone is because for years the United States has barred China from participating in any space launch that involves US technology and from work involving the International Space Station.

The ban is meant to punish China for missile-technology sales to what the US perceives of as "rogue states", such as Iran. But insiders believe it is also aimed at protecting the domestic US launch market from competition.

The US military has also long regarded China's space ambitions with suspicion, and hardliners such as former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld liked to point out how the development of the country's manned space program would serve Beijing in improving its military space systems.

Not surprisingly, in the aftermath of China's ASAT test, the US State Department threatened to reconsider a freshly signed 2006 agreement with Beijing on cooperation in moon exploration.

However, the US refusal to cooperate has not impeded China's space ambitions. It has only led China to pursue collaborative partnerships with space programs in other countries.

These include Russia, which has contributed technology for the design of China's manned Shenzhou missions and which has now been revealed as Beijing's partner for the future mission to Mars.

China has also forged alliances with various European satellite makers and in 2004 signed up as a partner and investor in the European Union's Galileo project.

(Inter Press Service)

As for He3, noone knows for sure if it will be feasible to build powerplants needed to utilize it here on Earth.
http://books.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/13/1444253

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=14699

Humans can destroy Moon trying to produce helium-3 solar isotope

19.01.2007 Source: URL: http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/86582-helium_moon-0

There is a dangerous tendency in the Russian manned space technology and exploration. Some scientists believe that the extraction of natural resources on the Moon should be viewed as a main purpose of the lunar program. The mining of helium-3, the “solar isotope, on Earth’s natural satellite, is the cornerstone of such a concept. Helium-3 used as a thermonuclear fuel is alleged to be capable of providing mankind with immense advantages in terms of energy. Many an expert have already expressed their skepticism about a helium mining project on the Moon, stressing the point that it would entail astronomical costs. More importantly, the costs would be totally unjustified. Suffice it to say, that 100 million tons of lunar soil would have to be processed for the production of one ton of the isotope.

It is still unclear what is to be done about helium-3 should the isotope be delivered to Earth. Further development of reactors running on deuterium and tritium is currently the most promising and feasible area of research in thermonuclear power engineering. Both deuterium and tritium occur in abundance in the ocean. One of such reactors, the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, is being built in France.

In August 2005, the French researcher P. E. Schtott published an article in the British journal Physics of Plasma and Controlled Reaction. He pointed out that “even under the most favorable circumstances possible the ignition of reaction (of deuterium and helium-3) would require… much higher plasma characteristics than those necessary for triggering the reaction of deuterium and tritium.” Academician Evgeny Velikhov, president of the Kurchatov Institute, a Russian research center, shares the viewpoint: “We need to learn how to burn helium before we start bringing it down to Earth. We don’t have to go to the Moon for doing so.”

It is noteworthy that John Marburger, director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy at the White House, made a special reference to the controversial issue of helium production while delivering a speech at the American Aeronautical Society on March 15, 2006. His speech concerned the ways of attracting private companies to the implementation of the officially declared U.S. lunar exploration program. “I’m not talking about the production of helium-3 for the purpose of using it as a fuel for a thermonuclear reactor. I have my doubts that the project will ever pay off,” said Marburger.

The plans for mining of helium-3 on the Moon may divert significant intellectual, production and economic capabilities of the country from the implementation of more feasible and less costly space programs e.g. a manned space mission to Mars. Academician Roald Sagdeyev, the former director of the Institute of Space Studies, is confident that “today’s intentions to mine natural resources on the Moon can utterly discredit the manned space exploration and technology in the eyes of both the taxpayers and politicians. It will be seen as a kind of cardsharping aimed at uncontrolled and unaccounted appropriation of colossal budget funds.”

Nezavisimaya Gazeta
Translated by Guerman Grachev

[BLUEJACKET]

A new piece of space news-Russia, China aim for Red Planet
China will launch a joint mission with Russia to Mars, a "milestone" in space co-operation between the two countries.
The agreement was signed during a three-day visit to Russia by China's president Hu Jintao.

The move follows pledges by Moscow to work more closely with the Chinese on missions to Mars and the Moon.

A small satellite developed by China will piggyback on the Russian launch of a spacecraft called "Phobos Grunt", probably in October 2009.

In a statement, the China National Space Administration said the agreement "indicates the two sides have taken a key step forward to working together on a large space programme."

After entering orbit around the Red Planet, the Chinese micro-satellite will detach from the Russian spacecraft, and probe the Martian space environment, according to the statement.

The Russian spacecraft will touch down on the Martian moon Phobos and collect soil samples for return to Earth.

There was no mention of a timetable in the Chinese space agency statement. But earlier Russian reports said the launch window for the 10-11 month voyage to Phobos, Mars' largest moon, will be in October 2009.

The agreement was signed by the China National Space Administration head Sun Laiyan and Russian Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) chief Anatoly Perminov and witnessed by the two countries' presidents.

China is working on a three-stage plan for exploration of the Earth's Moon, which includes sending a lunar orbiter called Chang'e-1 some time this year, followed by a soft landing in 2012 and the return of lunar samples in another five years.

A UK team has also been developing a concept mission to land a spacecraft on the potato-shaped moon Phobos. It would act as a technology demonstrator for a mission to bring Martian rocks back to Earth.

Both Europe and the US have made the objective of returning Martian samples to Earth laboratories a top priority for their space programmes. A joint venture is likely to occur within the next 15-20 years.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/6506539.stm


By hitching a ride on Russian spacecraft, they save time & $$$!

[jack.sparow]

now,more and more the world people attention to China's space program And what steps our country. one world one moon! one moon one dream!

[Neutral Zone]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6521443.stm

Engineers unveil China moon rover

Chinese scientists have shown off a prototype Moon rover that could lead to the country's first unmanned mission to the lunar surface in 2012.
The 1.5m (5ft) high, 200kg (440lbs) rover should transmit video in real time, dig into and analyse soil, and produce 3D images of the lunar surface.

Engineers have unveiled a prototype at the Shanghai institute where work on the six-wheeled vehicle is underway.

Rival rovers are being developed at institutes in Beijing and elsewhere.

It is not clear when the successful candidate will be selected.

Engineers at the Shanghai Aerospace System Engineering Institute have created a specialised laboratory that mimics the lunar surface for their rover.

Unlike the solar-rechargeable lithium-ion batteries used by the US space agency's (Nasa) Mars rovers, the Chinese model will eventually run on a radioisotope thermoelectric generator. Such devices convert heat from a radioactive source into electricity.

"We want to make it better than the early US and Russian rovers," Luo Jian, director of the institute, was quoted as saying.

With an average speed of 100m (328ft) per hour, it can negotiate inclines and has automatic sensors to prevent it from crashing into other objects, China Daily reported.

China is working on a three-stage plan for exploration of the Earth's Moon, which includes sending a lunar orbiter called Chang'e-1 some time this year.

This will be followed by a soft landing in 2012 and the return of lunar samples in another five years.

The US has outlined its vision for the exploration of the Moon, which will involve returning humans to the lunar surface by 2020.


More proof that China's lunar plans are moving forward. It's an interesting choice of power supply, but unlike NASA, China doesn't have a vocal environmental lobby creating scare stories about nuclear batteries!

[sandyj]

TianLian 1 Data Relay Satellite System

Last updated: 26 April 2008

The TianLian-1 (TL-1, TianLian = "Sky Link") data relay satellite (DRS) system has been developed by the China Academy of Space Technology (CAST). Similar to the U.S. Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System (TDRSS) in concept, the TL-1 is designed to support near-real-time communications between orbiting spacecraft and the ground control. The system will complement the existing ground-based space tracking and telemetry stations and ships to support future space projects of the PRC.

The initial experimental system consists of a ground-based simulation system and an orbiting satellite testing system. The ground-based simulation system consists of a fixed ground station and a mobile station, which are designed to test the satellite’s capability to support two ground users simultaneously. The ground stations, along with the central terminal station and control centre, will simulate the low-, medium-, and high-speed data communications with the data relay satellite in Ka- and S-band.

The orbiting satellite testing system is designed to examine and transmit the parameters of the orbiting data relay satellite and its onboard mission payloads. The system can also support the monitoring, testing and maintenance of the satellite’s data links with the ground stations. The first-generation system is based on the DFH-3A satellite bus, and will have a single satellite providing 50% of global coverage. The future second-generation system will be based on the DFH-4 satellite bus, with two satellites providing 85% of global coverage.

The main contractor for the ground-based simulation system and an orbiting satellite testing system is Beijing-based Space Star Technology Co. Ltd., a commercial company owned by the CAST. The first experimental satellite was launched on 25 April 2008 by a CZ-3C launch vehicle from the Xichang Satellite Launch Centre.

Launch Records

Satellite Launch Date Launch Site Launch Vehicle Orbit In use Note
TianLian 1 No.01 25 Apr 08 Xichang CZ-3C Y1 GEO -

[sandyj]

Tracking, Telemetry & Command (TT&C) Network

Last updated: 4 April 2008

The PRC’s space tracking, telemetry and control (TT&C) network was built in the late 1960s and became operational in the early 1970s to support the country’s long-range ballistic missile and space programmes. The network provides tracking data for ballistic missile tests and space launches, as well as support for the operation, control, and maintenance of all PRC satellites in space. In addition, the network has limited capability of monitoring and identifying objects in space and providing early warning of a ballistic missile attack on the Chinese territory.

The TT&C network consists of an aerospace command & control centre in Beijing, a satellite control centre in Xi’an, several land-based space tracking stations located both inside the PRC and overseas, and five space tracking ships to provide a global coverage of TT&C capability. All TT&C facilities are manned by both military personnel from the PLA General Armament Department (GAD) and civilians working in the PRC space industry.

The initial TT&C network was based on VHF radio telemetry and tracking systems, which had a poor tracking accuracy and was easily disrupted by civilian radio and television broadcasting signals. The system has been retired since 2004~2005. A second network working at the C-band was built in the 1970s to support the geosynchronous orbit (GEO) launch missions. In the 1990s, a high-accuracy unified S-band (USB) that combines tracking and ranging, command, audio and video links into a single antenna was built to support the Project 921 manned spaceflight programme. This network included a new domestic tracking station and four overseas tracking stations.

The PRC is studying an indigenous Data Relay Satellite (DRS) System to supplement the existing TT&C network for future spaceflight missions. The system will include two geostationary satellites and relay data from 5-10 satellites at a time while covering 85% of the globe.

Domestic Tracking Stations

Weinan Station, military codename: Qinling or No.28 Computing Station, was built in the 1970s as a key missile and space tracking facility. It was intended to serve as the command and control centre for the PRC’s ballistic missile early warning system. The station is located in Weinan City, about 60km northeast of Xi’an City in Shaanxi Province. Because of its unique location, the station is able to track missiles and launch vehicles launched from all three PRC launch sites. In the Shenzhou manned space flight missions, Weinan Station is responsible for tracking and monitoring the launch vehicle and spacecraft during the ascent stage. According to the Chinese media report, by 2002 the station had supported “14 strategic ballistic missile tests and over 30 satellite launch missions”.


http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/facilities/images/ttc_03.jpg
The Weinan Space Tracking station (Source: Chinese Internet)

Changchun Station, military codename: Changcheng (“Great Wall”), is the space tracking and missile early warning station located in Changchun City, Jilin Province.

Qingdao Station (also known as Bohai Station) was originally built in the 1970s for the missile tracking and early warning role. It was upgraded in the 1990s to support the Project 921 manned spaceflight programme. Located in Qingdao City, Shandong Province on China’s east coast, the station plays a key role in monitoring the launch vehicle during the ascend stage of the launch, and controlling the spacecraft to enter its scheduled orbit. In 2007, a new 18m-diametre tracking radar dish was installed in the station to receive data transmitted back from the Chang’e lunar orbiting probe.


http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/facilities/images/ttc_02.jpg
The Qingdao Space Tracking station (Source: Chinese Internet)

Zhanyi (Guilin) Station is located in Zhanyi County, Guilin, Yunan Province in southern China. The station mainly supports GEO launches conducted from the Xichang Satellite Launch Centre (XSLC).



The 110 mono-pulse radar at the Zhanyi Space/Missile Tracking station (Source: Chinese Internet)

Nanhai Station is located near the Yulin Naval Base on the Hainan Island. It supports GEO launches conducted from XSLC.

Karshi Station, also known as Tianshan Station, is located in Shule County in Xinjiang. It is the westernmost tracking station within PRC’s territory and plays a key role during the re-entry of the Shenzhou spacecraft.

Xiamen Station, military codename: Qianshao (“Vanguard”), is a missile and space tracking facility located in Xiamen City, Fujian Province on the east coast.

Lushan Station, military codename: Huanghe (“Yellow River”) was built in the late 1970s.

Jiamusi Station is a space and missile tracking station located in Jiamusi City, Heilongjiang Province.


[img]http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/facilities/images/ttc_01.jpg
The radar of the Jiamusi Space/Missile Tracking station (Source: Chinese Internet)

Dongfeng Station is located in the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Centre (JSLC) in Inner Mongolia. The station provides tracking data during the take-off and re-entry of the Shenzhou spacecraft.

Hetian Station is a mobile station located in Xinjiang. It provides tracking data during the flight and re-entry of the Shenzhou capsule.

A mobile station is deployed in the landing site of the Shenzhou spacecraft in Siziwang Banner, Inner Mongolia. The station is responsible for locating the re-entry capsule during its landing.


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Domestic space tracking stations

Overseas Tracking Stations

Karachi Station was possibly built in the late 1990s to support the Project 921 manned space flight programme. The facility has been providing tracking data for Shenzhou flight missions since 1999.

Tarawa Station located on the South Tarawa Island, Republic of Kiribati was opened in 1997 to support the Project 921 manned space flight programme. However, the status of the facility became gloomy in November 2003 after the President Anote Tong’s decision to officially recognise Taiwan as an independent state. PRC has been reportedly looking for an alternative site for a new station in the region.

Malindi (Kenya) Station is located at Malindi, an Indian Ocean coastal town in the Republic of Kenya in Eastern Africa. The station became operational in July 2005 to support the . Shenzhou 6 manned space flight mission.

Swakopmund (Namibia) Station was completed in July 2001 following an agreement signed in October 2000 between the governments of the PRC and Namibia. Swakopmund is a South Atlantic costal down in central Namibia in Southern Africa. The station together with Yuanwang 3 space tracking ship stationed in South Atlantic provides crucial tracking and control during the re-entry of the Shenzhou spacecraft. According to Chinese media report, the facility is staffed by 16 engineers and technicians.

Additionally, the PRC has signed agreements with France, Brazil, Sweden and Australia to share space tracking facilities for mutual benefits.

Yuanwang Space Tracking Ships

The PRC currently deploys five Yuanwang space tracking ships to supplement the land-based tracking stations in its space programme. In a typical Shenzhou flight mission, Yuanwang 1 is positioned in the West Pacific off the Chinese coast; Yuanwang 2 is positioned about 1,500km southwest of French Polynesia in Southern Pacific; Yuanwang 3 is positioned off the Namibian coast in the Atlantic; Yuanwang 4 is positioned off the coast of Western Australian in the Indian Ocean. Yuanwang 1,2 and 3 are capable of tracking and controlling the spacecraft during its launch, flight and re-entry, as well as communications relay between the Beijing command centre and the spacecraft, while Yuanwang 4 is only capable of tracking the spacecraft. Two new ships (Yuanwang 5 and 6) have been commissioned recently. Please see main article: Yuanwang Space Tracking Ships.

Xi’an Satellite Control Centre (XSCC)

XSCC, also known as Base 26 in its military code name, is located in Xi’an City, Shaanxi Province. It is the nerve centre of the PRC’s TT&C network and the primary satellite (unmanned missions) control facility. All domestic and overseas ground tracking stations are subordinate to XSCC in administrative structure.


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The Xi'an Satellite Control Centre (Source: Chinese Internet)

Beijing Aerospace Command & Control Centre (BACC)

Please see main article: Beijing Aerospace Command & Control Centre (BACC)

Operations

During a typical Shenzhou flight mission, three trac