PLAN comissions first 054 Ma'anshan class

[bd popeye]

How about some pics xcswimmer? I would like more pics other than the ones posted on sinodefence...Any good tech info out there on this ship? Please post...I read that the power plant was French built. :eek: I guess that's not part of the EU arms embargo. :rolleyes: :confused:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003565.php

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/054.asp

Chinese Commission New Class of Warships
Associated Press
Tue, 27 Sep 2005, 12:50

China's navy has commissioned the first in a new class of domestically designed and built warships, official media reported Tuesday.

The missile frigate Wenzhou, named after a port city in eastern China, entered service Monday at a ceremony attended by East China Fleet commander Zhao Guojun, according to a brief report on the official Wenzhou Newsnet.

The report gave no other details about the ship, but Western military experts have described it as the first in the 054 Ma'anshan class, representing China's most advanced missile frigates.

Along with superior electronics, anti-submarine capabilities and air defenses, the ships boast sloped, covered sides and a special exterior paint intended to make it more difficult to spot by radar, according to the reports.

The ships are designed to operate far out at sea, part of the People's Liberation Army's development of a "blue water" navy intended to assert Chinese claims to Taiwan and other territories and protect sea lanes transporting vital natural resources.

[swimmerXC]

How about some pics xcswimmer? I would like more pics other than the ones posted on sinodefence...Any good tech info out there on this ship? Please post...I read that the power plant was French built. :eek: I guess that's not part of the EU arms embargo. :rolleyes: :confused:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003565.php

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/054.asp

Chinese Commission New Class of Warships
Associated Press
Tue, 27 Sep 2005, 12:50

China's navy has commissioned the first in a new class of domestically designed and built warships, official media reported Tuesday.

The missile frigate Wenzhou, named after a port city in eastern China, entered service Monday at a ceremony attended by East China Fleet commander Zhao Guojun, according to a brief report on the official Wenzhou Newsnet.

The report gave no other details about the ship, but Western military experts have described it as the first in the 054 Ma'anshan class, representing China's most advanced missile frigates.

Along with superior electronics, anti-submarine capabilities and air defenses, the ships boast sloped, covered sides and a special exterior paint intended to make it more difficult to spot by radar, according to the reports.

The ships are designed to operate far out at sea, part of the People's Liberation Army's development of a "blue water" navy intended to assert Chinese claims to Taiwan and other territories and protect sea lanes transporting vital natural resources.


pics...
only one i can find on such short notice...
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5561/ffg05427a8ir.jpg
cheers

[MIGleader]

well, the thales isn;t the best they can put on it. any one got news on the second set of 54s?

[tphuang]

well, supposedly a new 054 (054A) is getting built in one of the shipyards. The commissionned frigate is 526 I think. 525 suffered some problems in its testing.

[swimmerXC]

well, supposedly a new 054 (054A) is getting built in one of the shipyards. The commissionned frigate is 526 I think. 525 suffered some problems in its testing.

525 had engine probably i think, 526 is the on getting commissioned

[vincelee]

supposedly BOTH ships suffered problems in the shaft. And yes, the powerplant is the same one that powers the Lafayette.

[MIGleader]

both ships were finished in 04, so the problems have maily been weeded out.

[shichiroji4]

I have always wondered what is actually meant by "stealth" when it refers to ships. Is a stealth ship as undetectable as a stealth plane like the F117 or F22? Naturally RCS will be higher for ships due to the size, but proportionally wise is it the same as a stealth plane?

The reason I'm asking is because Singapore has just bought some La Fayette frigates and propoganda for the Navy is in full swing now. From some of those magazines, they make it look like the ship is invisible.

[vincelee]

Lafayette does have a very low IR/Radar profile, but it IS detectable, Com'on, it's a 3000 ton ship. If nothing else, the ship can't hide it's wake. Anyway, the newer Euro designs have surpassed the Lafayette in stealth, like the new Mako designs proposed for South Africa.

oh, and MiGLeader, the problems with the 054s happened early this year.

[swimmerXC]

I have always wondered what is actually meant by "stealth" when it refers to ships. Is a stealth ship as undetectable as a stealth plane like the F117 or F22? Naturally RCS will be higher for ships due to the size, but proportionally wise is it the same as a stealth plane?

The reason I'm asking is because Singapore has just bought some La Fayette frigates and propoganda for the Navy is in full swing now. From some of those magazines, they make it look like the ship is invisible.

well thats what PLAN said when 167 came out, but the stealth ships are like Visby, DD(X), Sea Shadow.....

[tphuang]

its "stealthy", but the FACs China has can be considered as stealthy.

[President]

hey, look at the front of 054. there are rust. why so many chinese ships with rusts on??? even this latest 054. why dont they remove rusts??

[vincelee]

sea water.

[Mazepa]

It would be interesting to know how it compares to our Swedish stealth corvette in the Visby class. It is supposed to be the most advanced stealth ship produced.

http://www.kockums.se/SurfaceVessels/visby.html

[drunkhomer]

dats cuz its where da anchor is located...all ships r like dat

[Lavi]

They are not really comparable, Ma'anshan is about five times bigger than Visby (3 000 t and 600 t respectively). The Visby is not a true blue water corvette, the designation for it is actually (directly translated from swedish) coastal corvette.

I would say that Visby is harder to detect, but then Ma'anshan is a blue water ship. If they met in the Baltic Visby could come out on top, due to detecting the Ma'anshan first, if they met out on the ocean, Visby wouldn't feel at home at all. But this is speculations, a good skipper on one of the ships could be decisive. The key would be who would find the other one first, and simply because of size I suppose Visby has a smaller RCS.

[bd popeye]

hey, look at the front of 054. there are rust. why so many chinese ships with rusts on??? even this latest 054. why dont they remove rusts??

President, Some rust is common on any sea going ship. All you can do is treat it(paint) It never completly goes away because of salt in sea water. Most of the rust you see is called surface corrosion. Which is very treatable simply by a little scrapping and painting. Major corrosision seldom occurs.

You should see what ships look like after a 6 months deployment.

[MIGleader]

well, they cleaned up varyags rust at least...
when will the pla reaveal its first super-stealth sea craft like ddx?
quote:The key would be who would find the other one first, and simply because of size I suppose Visby has a smaller RCS.
and a smaller radar...

[RavenWing278]

would the visby be comparable to the chinese FAC? since their both coastal defence ships?

[MIGleader]

no not really. the fac is a fast attck craft, used to be in groups to strike larger vessels, while a visby patrols for safety.

[President]

President, Some rust is common on any sea going ship. All you can do is treat it(paint) It never completly goes away because of salt in sea water. Most of the rust you see is called surface corrosion. Which is very treatable simply by a little scrapping and painting. Major corrosision seldom occurs.

You should see what ships look like after a 6 months deployment.
thanks a lots, bd popeye! will the rusts have affect on stealth?

[Mazepa]

When are the DD(X) planned to be in service, and what will be the price per unit? (I always get the impression that US ships tend to cost obscene amounts of money)

Will DD(X) be using a conventional steel hull even with the negative impact that has on the magnetic signature?

[Gollevainen]

would the visby be comparable to the chinese FAC? since their both coastal defence ships?

Why not, thougth Visby can go bit off shore than the chinese catamaran. But maybe to newest fac in the other side of the gulf... :cool:
http://www.mil.fi/ajankohtaista/tiedotteet/arkisto/2001/images/20010704_0926_1/35603-1998_s.jpg

[vincelee]

what the hell is that?

[bd popeye]

Prez sez..""thanks a lots, bd popeye! will the rusts have affect on stealth?""

No it should not. Stelth depends on the radar/sonar image.

[Gollevainen]

what the hell is that?

The newest finnish sthealt FAC Hamina...

[bd popeye]

When are the DD(X) planned to be in service, and what will be the price per unit? (I always get the impression that US ships tend to cost obscene amounts of money)

You are right on the cost. That's why the USN cancelled all funding for the DD(X) program for at least one year. The first of the 14 ships was to be under construction this year but the USN cut the money...As for cost I'm not sure but it's about $1 Billion USD. :eek: Sorry I could not find a decent link.

[RavenWing278]

any specs on the hamina?

[Gollevainen]

any specs on the hamina?

235tn, 30kn, 50.8m
6xRBS-15mk3 SSM, 1 Mistral SAM, 1 40mm AA and mines in place of the SSMs

but lets not drift away from Ma'anshan...

[bd popeye]

but lets not drift away from Ma'anshan...

Agreed!

As far as the 054 class is concerned for the PLAN I think it would be a good idea to stick with this design and build multiples of this ship. What ever problems they had can be worked out I'm sure. Commonality in your navy is important. It establishes;

1. Common ship all hands know.
2. Easier training.
3. An improved platform as newer ships of the 054 class are produced.
4. Lower production cost as the production increases.

How many of this call should the PLAN produce? Anyone have an idea?

[MIGleader]

i expect to see at least two more 54s in the future. a model for the, showed they had the russian shtill missle and type 730 ciws. the first two 54s are similar in porpuse to the 167, to demonstrate some new designs and techs, but to weild older, more proven weapons. the thales was a bit dissapointing.

this seiries may be the plan future frigate, since jiangwei production has stopped.

[tphuang]

i expect to see at least two more 54s in the future. a model for the, showed they had the russian shtill missle and type 730 ciws. the first two 54s are similar in porpuse to the 167, to demonstrate some new designs and techs, but to weild older, more proven weapons. the thales was a bit dissapointing.

this seiries may be the plan future frigate, since jiangwei production has stopped.
actually, the new ones should be using HQ-16, a join development that's supposed to be an upgraded version of SA-N-12.

[MIGleader]

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.63/pub_detail.asp
scroll down to the type 54 frigate part.
it the hq-16 may aswell be the shtil, since the shtill got funding likely from the chinese.

[tphuang]

yeah, I think they are talking about an upgraded shtil.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-17.htm

[Knarfo]

235tn, 30kn, 50.8m
6xRBS-15mk3 SSM, 1 Mistral SAM, 1 40mm AA and mines in place of the SSMs

but lets not drift away from Ma'anshan...

....but just briefly for a short bit, please.

is the hamina to be re equipped with the same armament as the next ships in the class, i.e. 57 mm bofors and umkhonto?

[Lavi]

As far as I know both Hamina and Tornio have the same armament (note also the fact that they are supposed to kill subs with depth charges, since torpedoes are forbidden onboard Finnish ships since WWII).

But back to Ma'anshan, it has two tripple torpedoe tubes for killing subs, but what ASW-sensors does it have? Is it equipped with active sonar? Towed array? Anyone who knows? The USN Oliverd Hazard Perry FFG has towed passive arrays and active hull mounted sonar, I suppose something similar could be fitted to the Ma'anshan.

[Knarfo]

As far as I know both Hamina and Tornio have the same armament (note also the fact that they are supposed to kill subs with depth charges, since torpedoes are forbidden onboard Finnish ships since WWII).




I dug around for a bit and found this
http://www.boforsdefence.com/eng/press/releases/050208-57.asp
Seems all Hamina class vessels will be fitted with the 57 mm. Also on mil.fi it was stated that six umkhonto systems are bought for installation on the four Haminas and the two Uusimaa class minelayers.

Also the Paris peace accord restrictions on the Finnish military are no longer in effect since the collapse of the SU. These were nullified by declaration of then president Koivisto.
Finland is now cooperating with Sweden on amongst other things, a new torpedo.
http://www.fmv.se/WmTemplates/page.aspx?id=598

[Gollevainen]

Damn this feels like treason...but we seriously should stay in the topic. Now i have this finnish army thread in world defence section so perhaps we could discus more about hamina in there. I'm must confess this Ukhumoto-deal was news for me and i would like to hear more...

[MIGleader]

the 54 probably has a baisc passive sonar. chinese vessles are not know for their anti sub warefare abilities.

[muyang523]

526 is built already built, but it isn't Type 54A
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/ship/526.jpg

[sino52C]

In addition to bad ASW, they should get a better torpedo, our current torpedo is pathetic

[bd popeye]

In addition to bad ASW, they should get a better torpedo, our current torpedo is pathetic

I started a new thread about the PLAN ASW ablities titled..
What's wrong with PLAN ASW? I asked some questions. So check it out!

[Sczepan]

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/27/91256.shtml

Chinese Commission New Class of Warships
NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, Sept. 27, 2005

SHANGHAI, China -- China's navy has commissioned the first in a new class of domestically designed and built warships, official media reported Tuesday.

The missile frigate Wenzhou, named after a port city in eastern China, entered service Monday at a ceremony attended by East China Fleet commander Zhao Guojun, according to a brief report on the official Wenzhou Newsnet.

The report gave no other details about the ship, but Western military experts have described it as the first in the 054 Ma'anshan class, representing China's most advanced missile frigates.
......

[MIGleader]

In addition to bad ASW, they should get a better torpedo, our current torpedo is pathetic

its a varinet of the same topedo used on most western vessels, the mk-46. the yu-7 is its revers engineer.

[jatt]

When will they (PLAN) tell us the stats of the ship. It is commisioned but should'n't we want to know the displacement, complement and missile ability?

[MIGleader]

they have realesed stats, but its up to you to take the effort and do some reaserch.

[jatt]

What research? We know the SAM it uses but what AShM does it use? All are freakin speculation.

[MIGleader]

the ship uses the yj-803 ashm. it weighs aprroximately 4500 tons. if you want more inof, do some rreaserch!!!

[vincelee]

I find it funny that Jatt thinks he is entitled to some information from the PLAN. Who the hell do you think you are? The PLA press office doesn't exist to serve you, you know. Information is released to benefit THEM, not YOU.