Peace Mission 2005

[ultrafang]

Here is some pic from Peace Mission 2005
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/815841_026150063.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/py7tf.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/20050811-2230190.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/826f4tu.jpg

[ultrafang]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/7m7xg.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/7k3pv.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/815841_334877610.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/824b2dm.jpg

[ultrafang]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/825p0ai.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/7c6ct.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/825d2ht.jpg

[MIGleader]

wonderful!
it's usualy onedream that posts stuff like this!

[ultrafang]

Thx! Here some more pics!, hope i'm not posting too much.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/815841_335391309.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/815841_335406363.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/826e0sz.jpg

[MIGleader]

i hope the red parchutes are just part of the excercise...nothing makes better targets

[ger_mark]

dont think they buy new parachutes extra for that

[Obcession]

Para drops in broad daylight? Nothing makes better targets.

[MIGleader]

this is an excercise!!!
besides, with thermal, infra red, and night vision, a night drop wouldn't fare much better.

[Liberator]

Nice pictures.

[Obcession]

this is an excercise!!!
besides, with thermal, infra red, and night vision, a night drop wouldn't fare much better.

Ok, nothing makes better targets than a dropping paratrooper!

They are useless!

Heli insertions are better.

And I think those are supplies not paratroopers. They make the supply drop chutes different color probably, like ammo is red etc.

[ultrafang]

That was used too.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/a79124c5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/ultra89/c47d82db.jpg
I have have another pic that show 10-20 heli's droping troops. But i cant find it because i have so much pics.

[swimmerXC]

i'll post pictures on the weekend.... i just don’t have time this week :(

[Aluka]

Ok, we've seen Chineses, some Russians here:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2005-08/21/xinsimple_33208022117037852412624.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2005-08/21/xinsimple_29208022117030982474315.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2005-08/20/xinsrc_42208022008473752405583.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2005-08/20/xinsrc_40208022008472032696179.jpg

[Neko]

Ok, nothing makes better targets than a dropping paratrooper!

They are useless!

Heli insertions are better.

And I think those are supplies not paratroopers. They make the supply drop chutes different color probably, like ammo is red etc.


Look again. Ammo doesn't have legs.

[Obcession]

hm, those really are paratroopers.

[PiSigma]

paratroops still have some advantages, like if the defense side have no major troops near the drop site or no armor. they are basically suicide troops to slow down enemy movements and do damage to internal communications and infastructure for enemy. but if the enemy is ready for them, then they might as well crash the plane, might do more damage.

FIRST POST BY ME!!!!

[Obcession]

I wouldn't call suicide troops an advantage...

However, I think they're useful in one situation, is if the enemy's defences stationed at the drop zone are weak, like what you stated, and using paratroopers are a lot cheaper and a faster way to deploy troops behind enemy lines than choppers.

[ger_mark]

paratroops still have some advantages

better hope theres no modern AA-Cannon tank
my uncle lost 60% of his unit when they were landing in crete
and that was old ww2 AA

[rommel]

Well, i think that the paratrooper are still useful, they're vulnerable during the descent and to anykind of armor attack, but they can act as light infantry, doing hit and run, they don't have any heavy equipement, so they main job is dirupt and confuse the ennemy command chain, for exemple, you are defending a combat zone,the ennemy just drop some paras behind and on you, there's some ennemy heavy unit preparing to attack from the front, what will you do ?? Send the armor to crush the para and let the infantry defend against the heavy unit or attack with infantry and defend with your armor ?? If u send infantry to fight, there's a chance your infantry will be deafeated or sustained heavy losses, but if u send ur tank, what will u do if the ennemy units pierces ur main defence line ??? Your armors are fighting against para, u cannot just take them out of the fight like this, so it's confusing the ennemy and opening a second "front". Or you can always drop them far back to cut the supply line like bridges and main road or even, take the ennemy airport !

[M1Tanker]

Well, i think that the paratrooper are still useful, they're vulnerable during the descent and to anykind of armor attack, but they can act as light infantry, doing hit and run, they don't have any heavy equipement, so they main job is dirupt and confuse the ennemy command chain, for exemple, you are defending a combat zone,the ennemy just drop some paras behind and on you, there's some ennemy heavy unit preparing to attack from the front, what will you do ?? Send the armor to crush the para and let the infantry defend against the heavy unit or attack with infantry and defend with your armor ?? If u send infantry to fight, there's a chance your infantry will be deafeated or sustained heavy losses, but if u send ur tank, what will u do if the ennemy units pierces ur main defence line ??? Your armors are fighting against para, u cannot just take them out of the fight like this, so it's confusing the ennemy and opening a second "front". Or you can always drop them far back to cut the supply line like bridges and main road or even, take the ennemy airport !

I'm wandering a little off topic here, but back when I was in school and we were getting assigned branches (avation, armor, infantry, chem, etc) the guys who were happiest were the light infantry guys. They have the worst life but are the most important element on the battlefield.

It took me a while to get over my cavalry pride and realize my whole job on the battlefield was to support infantry. Artillery can't hold terrain. Helos can't hold terrain, tanks can't hold terrain, and personnel clerks can't hold terrain (or do much of anything well, it seems).

Parachute infantry is still a great idea. Assuming there is air superiority, air dropped infantry can secure vital terrain much faster than mech, motorized, or (my thier knees rest in peace) leg infantry. The shock value of quick seizure more than makes up for the added vunerability of the parachute drop.

Armor sure is nice when you're getting shot at though :eek:

Tanky

[tomo pauk]

What is the gun's type or calibre the aphibius tanks mount?

[rommel]

What is the gun's type or calibre the aphibius tanks mount?

105mm Gun

[rommel]

I'm wandering a little off topic here, but back when I was in school and we were getting assigned branches (avation, armor, infantry, chem, etc) the guys who were happiest were the light infantry guys. They have the worst life but are the most important element on the battlefield.

It took me a while to get over my cavalry pride and realize my whole job on the battlefield was to support infantry. Artillery can't hold terrain. Helos can't hold terrain, tanks can't hold terrain, and personnel clerks can't hold terrain (or do much of anything well, it seems).

Parachute infantry is still a great idea. Assuming there is air superiority, air dropped infantry can secure vital terrain much faster than mech, motorized, or (my thier knees rest in peace) leg infantry. The shock value of quick seizure more than makes up for the added vunerability of the parachute drop.

Armor sure is nice when you're getting shot at though :eek:

Tanky


I totally agree with Tanky, did you heard before that the Infantry is the Queen of the Battlefield ?? The infantry force is the workhorse of an army, only us, infantry, we can defend a position, we can take a building, we can clear a bunker or ambush an ennemy convoy, because we are the most versatile force in a army, infantry can do everything and and we need to react much more faster than a tank crew for exemple,and paratrooper is like dropping an elite light infantry force behind the ennemy, can you immagine how dommage we could done ??

BTW, Tanky, we said foot infantry, not leg infantry

[Gollevainen]

I totally agree with Tanky, did you heard before that the Infantry is the Queen of the Battlefield ?? The infantry force is the workhorse of an army, only us, infantry, we can defend a position, we can take a building, we can clear a bunker or ambush an ennemy convoy, because we are the most versatile force in a army, infantry can do everything and and we need to react much more faster than a tank crew for exemple,and paratrooper is like dropping an elite light infantry force behind the ennemy, can you immagine how dommage we could done ??




well like we finnish artillery mens say, infantry moves, artillery destroyes...

[sumdud]

I like chopper infantry more than paratroops. They are faster, and have more firepower per area. But then you are using a lot of planes, and most of the time, you can't carry vehicles. (Even though I don't think vehicles are paratroops are very useful either, the IFV sucks......)

I would use paratroops if the target is big and will also use large armored vehicles if I am to take a logistical route.

[Obcession]

Also with chopper inserted infantry you can move out when the chopper arrives at the insertion point, but with paras you need to gather a reasonable number of men before carrying out your mission. Chopper inserted infantry also can be extracted, while paratroopers wait to be relieved. And you can't just drop your paras ontop of your objective, because it's usually heavily guarded. With choppers you can get reasonably close to the objective.

[MIGleader]

chopper infantry=mobile wnd small

paratroops=big main force.

[sino52C]

I don't see anything wrong with a division size airmobile troops such as the 101, if you have enough helicopters.

you can use a small number of paratroopers, I think they are less vulnerable than helicopters if used properly.

[Obcession]

Well yes, there is nothing wrong with a division sized air assault unit, but the merits are still those of chopper insertion. Yes, you can do a small scale paratrooper drop, but the merits are still those of paratrooper insertion.

[rommel]

I like chopper infantry more than paratroops. They are faster, and have more firepower per area. But then you are using a lot of planes, and most of the time, you can't carry vehicles. (Even though I don't think vehicles are paratroops are very useful either, the IFV sucks......)

I would use paratroops if the target is big and will also use large armored vehicles if I am to take a logistical route.


The air assault unit are generally light infantry, they are faster of deplyong only when they got choopers, but they don't have more firepower than a paratrooper one, the IFV of the paras are as good as normal mechanized infantry's vehicule and the Air Assault normally don't have vehicule (too heavy for choppers). The 101st US Airborne division is an Air Assault division, they don't have anykinds of heavy weapon, they are really light foot infantry deployed by helicopters, the 82nd is a Airborne (paratroopers) division, they got a battalion of M551 Sheridan light tank (not verfy good but still usefull, supposed to be replaced by XM8 but cancelled) and they also have HUMVEE (air-droppable) with mounted weapon, they can be redeployed a lot faster than the Air assault.

[Su-27 Pilot]

The air assault unit are generally light infantry, they are faster of deplyong only when they got choopers, but they don't have more firepower than a paratrooper one, the IFV of the paras are as good as normal mechanized infantry's vehicule and the Air Assault normally don't have vehicule (too heavy for choppers). The 101st US Airborne division is an Air Assault division, they don't have anykinds of heavy weapon, they are really light foot infantry deployed by helicopters, the 82nd is a Airborne (paratroopers) division, they got a battalion of M551 Sheridan light tank (not verfy good but still usefull, supposed to be replaced by XM8 but cancelled) and they also have HUMVEE (air-droppable) with mounted weapon, they can be redeployed a lot faster than the Air assault.

I agree. Airborne troops are light and fast units that are trained to capture key enemy points and clear path for the main force. The key for the airborne force is Agility.

[Chairman Hu]

Airborne is critical, The Japanese took the oil fields in Indonesia back in WW2 through those troops before those fields were lid on fire

Airborne is TOO critical at many times, espeically they can do espianage campaigns or form a line to wipe out oncoming reinforcements for a battle

[muyang523]

Speaking about peace mission 2005 what do u guys think was the point of it.
Personally I think was the point was to strenghen relationship, China testing it's new weapons and how effective their army is, and Russia trying to sell their bombers.

[MIGleader]

it was mainly a political statement, a new point in relation ships.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

There are very large choppers that can carry light armored vehicles. Choppers are very expensive though. Another advantage of choppers is that you can get troops to the ground faster, and choppers can also provide cover fire. Choppers can also pick troops back up, transport planes can't unless its at an airfield.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Speaking about peace mission 2005 what do u guys think was the point of it.
Personally I think was the point was to strenghen relationship, China testing it's new weapons and how effective their army is, and Russia trying to sell their bombers.
You got some point right there. But also to once again warn a NATION to take his large nose out of other people's business !!

[Su-27 Pilot]

There are very large choppers that can carry light armored vehicles. Choppers are very expensive though. Another advantage of choppers is that you can get troops to the ground faster, and choppers can also provide cover fire. Choppers can also pick troops back up, transport planes can't unless its at an airfield.
What kind of counter measure does the PLA Aviation use against shoulder-fired AA missiles ??

[sumdud]

What kind of counter measure does the PLA Aviation use against shoulder-fired AA missiles ??
Flares.

That's true, the element of paratroops is speed and agility. They don't really need heavy weapons.

Humvees are useful, though. :D

[MIGleader]

humvees are a bit too heavy to transport in large #'s. thats why they have the light attach vehicle.

[rommel]

humvees are a bit too heavy to transport in large #'s. thats why they have the light attach vehicle.

... Firt time I heard that, HUMVEE are too heavy..., the only limit to transport HUMVEE in a C-130 Hercule for exemple, is the cargo space, but otherwise, even a Black Hawk can lift your "little" HUMVEE. The Fast Attack vehicule is not enough armored, could be a problem...

[sumdud]

If I remember correctly, a CH-53 can lift a LAV.

How heavy is an armored Humvee?
I don't think I would use the Humvee if I have the FAV though. It's not armored, but it's more flexible, faster.

The element is afterall speed and agility.

[MIGleader]

... Firt time I heard that, HUMVEE are too heavy..., the only limit to transport HUMVEE in a C-130 Hercule for exemple, is the cargo space, but otherwise, even a Black Hawk can lift your "little" HUMVEE. The Fast Attack vehicule is not enough armored, could be a problem...

i said in large #'s, not that it couldn't be lifted. if you wan to lift a humvee, it cant be armored. alot of humvees in iraq arn't armored

[rommel]

i said in large #'s, not that it couldn't be lifted. if you wan to lift a humvee, it cant be armored. alot of humvees in iraq arn't armored

What are you talking about, a HUMVEE can be armored and lifted in the same time, an armored and armed HUMVEE is weighting 6,000lb. A lot of HUMVEE are not armored in Iraq is not because their are too heavy, it's only that the US Army don't have the logistic and the plate to armored them all. Even the M998 Cargo/Troop Carrier HUMVEE (that's the most basic version without even weapon mount) is already kind of armored (the chassis can stop pistol bullet) now, think about the combat version... The other armor is used to stop assault rifle bullet at short range and sometime even heavy bullet on longer range (12,7mm or 14,5mm)

Sumdum, even the 19 tons Stryker can be lifted by CH-53, why the the HUMVEE could not ?? The Black Hawk can also lifted a armored HUMVEE (the Black Hawk can carry 10,000lb)

By the way, some fact about HUMVEE

Length: 15 ft
Width: 7.08 ft
Height : 6.00 feet reducible to 4.5 feet
Weight: 5,200 lbs
Engine: V8, 6.2 litre displacement, fuel injected diesel, liquid cooled, compression ignition
Horsepower: 150 at 3,600 RPM
Transmission: 3 speed, automatic
Transfer case: 2 speed, locking, chain driven
Electrical system: 24 volt, negative ground, 60 amps
Brakes: Hydraulic, 4-wheeled disc
Fording depth: without preparation: 2.5 ft (76.2 cm)
with deep water fording kit : 5 ft (1.5 m)
Fuel type: Diesel
Fuel capacity: 25 gallons
Range: 350 miles highway
Max speed: 65 mph

It's enough fast for attack mission... and it can also carry some heavier weapon than the FAV (M2HB .50 HMG or Mk.19 40mm Automatic Grenade Launcher or even the Avenger System)

[Red not Dead]

Ok, nothing makes better targets than a dropping paratrooper!

They are useless!

Heli insertions are better.

And I think those are supplies not paratroopers. They make the supply drop chutes different color probably, like ammo is red etc.


HUm and who told you such a stupidity?

With a correct HILO procedure and an average spreading your guys would be able to endure les than 20% of casualties when landing.

When chopper insterted you face the risk of loosing the whole crew ...chechnya anyone, Somalia Anyone, Iraq anyone? Besides night drops are still the best alternative a force on the building process has.

[sze86]

cool pics, cool discussions, you guys are all cool

[swimmerXC]

dont you mean HALO jump red? whats so special about HAHO then?

[Obcession]

HUm and who told you such a stupidity?

With a correct HILO procedure and an average spreading your guys would be able to endure les than 20% of casualties when landing.

When chopper insterted you face the risk of loosing the whole crew ...chechnya anyone, Somalia Anyone, Iraq anyone? Besides night drops are still the best alternative a force on the building process has.

Ok, here's my view on the disadvantages of paratroopers, we all know their advantages so I won't mention them.

1. They are very hard to extract from the battlefield, so you basically have to overrun enemy forces with your ground forces to relieve them.

2. They did very bad in WWII, what makes you think they can fare better today? Another weakness of theirs is the lack of firepower. If they're not relieved quick enough, they'd just be mown down by enemy armor. Which brings to another point:

3. Paratroopers traditionally have high casualty rates. For every day they are out in the field, they take many casualties and lose a lot of precious ammunition, something, which is irreplaceable to the paratroopers. Of course you can do a supply drop, but a lot of it is going to end up on the wrong hands. With the use of thermal sights and flares they'd just be sitting ducks when they drop, even in a night drop.

4. Lack of mobility, most paratroopers will be foot infantry, with a small portion that gets jeeps. That means they have to be dropped very close to their objective, and if it's an objective, you can be sure it's well guarded.

Oh and, HALO doesn't fare much better than HAHO against ground fire.

[MIGleader]

the best way to get tour paratroops in is from an inconspicous area, then link em up with your main force. helicopters will certainly help.

[Red not Dead]

Ok, here's my view on the disadvantages of paratroopers, we all know their advantages so I won't mention them.

1. They are very hard to extract from the battlefield, so you basically have to overrun enemy forces with your ground forces to relieve them.

2. They did very bad in WWII, what makes you think they can fare better today? Another weakness of theirs is the lack of firepower. If they're not relieved quick enough, they'd just be mown down by enemy armor. Which brings to another point:

3. Paratroopers traditionally have high casualty rates. For every day they are out in the field, they take many casualties and lose a lot of precious ammunition, something, which is irreplaceable to the paratroopers. Of course you can do a supply drop, but a lot of it is going to end up on the wrong hands. With the use of thermal sights and flares they'd just be sitting ducks when they drop, even in a night drop.

4. Lack of mobility, most paratroopers will be foot infantry, with a small portion that gets jeeps. That means they have to be dropped very close to their objective, and if it's an objective, you can be sure it's well guarded.

Oh and, HALO doesn't fare much better than HAHO against ground fire.


Ok, first point Wrong. extraction of paratroopers is mainly a planning/execution issue. That has thus nothing to with the intrinsic nature of the para force. In WW2 they did ...bad because it was the first US para "live" manoeuver. But at the opposite the germans did fairly well in Belgium, in France and Greece. the only dark spot is operation merkur in Creta but that's the next point and tech has moved on.

Lack of fire power? Dead Wrong. Airmech anyone? The whole BMD series, Sprut D and BMP-k can be air dropped. TOW? Kornet? LOSAT?

Even the new FCS system is supposed to be airborne.

NVG, PNG? You got the same what's the big difference.

Mobility? Wrong again. See Supra.

[Wingman]

Does anyone have any details of what exactly happens in Peace Mission 2005? What kind of exercises are there? Any info on competitions (e.g. dofighting) and any results?

I found some stuff here
http://english.sina.com/z/050822mission/index.shtml

But I'm more interested in details for the aircraft exercises.

[Kampfwagen]

Hate to leap off topic here, but while I do agree with you Red Guard, Paratroopers are an excelent fighting force IF you are willing to risk massive casualties. Crete was a prime example of this, as well as Normandy. You would, on average, loose several planes loaded with 20+ troops, or have pilots panic and make mis-drops. To say however that Helo-insertions arent effective and more dangerous is not entirely correct. Whilst Helo-Inserts are more high-risk than the typical Air-Drop, it isint so much of an uncoordinated mess as Parachute drops typicaly are. Misdrops are still very common and can happen very easily as accuracy is so specific. Just a shift in the wind and your blown five miles into the lap of the enemy. This could be disasterous if one were to extract information from these troops. Suddenly the whole operation is out the window. But typicaly speaking, if the insertions in Helo-drops are that hot, then ether the crew will be completely incapacitated (Chechneya) or will have the capacity to fight (Somalia) even if they have serious injuries. That, and typicaly only pilots in an emergency situation even attempt to make hot landings. The lessons from these conflicts have taught those that armored or mechanized infantry aproaches are the best ways to enter a hotzone.

[goldenpanda]

1. They are very hard to extract from the battlefield, so you basically have to overrun enemy forces with your ground forces to relieve them.


I think extraction has been overplayed. How many battles are like Vietnam war? You can't extract a large force, especially one that's heavily engaged with the enemy. Choppers also lack range and are vulnerable to ground level weapons. If they get shot down by guerrillas, how about an organized, modern army?


2. They did very bad in WWII, what makes you think they can fare better today? Another weakness of theirs is the lack of firepower. If they're not relieved quick enough, they'd just be mown down by enemy armor. Which brings to another point:


They captured Crete. How else could Hitler have done it? Modern paratroopers can hold an urban area against armor.


3. Paratroopers traditionally have high casualty rates. For every day they are out in the field, they take many casualties and lose a lot of precious ammunition, something, which is irreplaceable to the paratroopers. Of course you can do a supply drop, but a lot of it is going to end up on the wrong hands. With the use of thermal sights and flares they'd just be sitting ducks when they drop, even in a night drop.


Many will die, that's why paratroopers are the bravest in any army. I wonder if paradrops can be assisted by a chopper insertion just moments before.


4. Lack of mobility, most paratroopers will be foot infantry, with a small portion that gets jeeps. That means they have to be dropped very close to their objective, and if it's an objective, you can be sure it's well guarded.


Foot infantry can be surprisingly mobile. In Korea PLA maneuvered quite well on foot.


Oh and, HALO doesn't fare much better than HAHO against ground fire.

can you explain HALo and HAHO to me?

[isthvan]

I think extraction has been overplayed. How many battles are like Vietnam war? You can't extract a large force, especially one that's heavily engaged with the enemy. Choppers also lack range and are vulnerable to ground level weapons. If they get shot down by guerrillas, how about an organized, modern army?

Extraction and medivac aren't by no way overplayed. Range can be extended with air refueling and ground fire vulnerability is overrated (transport choppers don't work alone, they are covered by fighters, gunships, and your one ground forces). Plus level of tactical flexibility provided by usage of helicopters is still unmatched by any other way of transport...


They captured Crete. How else could Hitler have done it? Modern paratroopers can hold an urban area against armor.

Yes Crete is great example; no significant armor opposition, demoralized opponent and so high casualties among invading forces that Germans stopped conducting airborne operations after Crete...


Many will die, that's why paratroopers are the bravest in any army. I wonder if paradrops can be assisted by a chopper insertion just moments before.

Paratroopers are elite in any army and many will die but task is to hold ground for limited amount of time until main force can arrive and nothing more... Plus if you have option to use choppers why would you use para drop?



Foot infantry can be surprisingly mobile. In Korea PLA maneuvered quite well on foot.

And Hannibal proved great level of tactical mobility using elephants. That doesn't mean that for modern warfare there aren't better way to provide mobility to your troops.



can you explain HALo and HAHO to me?

HALO - high altitude jump,low altitude opening of parachute

HAHO-high altitude jump, high altitude opening

[goldenpanda]

The idea is the chopper force needs only be large enough to briefly secure the landing zone. The small force is cheaper, easier to escort, more stealthy. The paradrops give you the heavy equipment, supplies, and main force.

[isthvan]

The idea is the chopper force needs only be large enough to briefly secure the landing zone. The small force is cheaper, easier to escort, more stealthy. The paradrops give you the heavy equipment, supplies, and main force.

I just don't get it... Main task in any such operation is to achieve surprise and local superiority... Using small force attack as prelude to such operation you are losing both.

[goldenpanda]

I just don't get it... Main task in any such operation is to achieve surprise and local superiority... Using small force attack as prelude to such operation you are losing both.

You do have both. The insertion only needs to be big enough to pin down near by enemies, while airborne are forming up. We're not dropping on top of SS armor (hopefully). Probably just take care of some AA militia troops.

[isthvan]

You do have both. The insertion only needs to be big enough to pin down near by enemies, while airborne are forming up. We're not dropping on top of SS armor (hopefully). Probably just take care of some AA militia troops.

You cant have both even if you are going against "some AA militia troops". By landing small amount of troops you have alerted opposition and you are losing surprise needed for your troops to survive landing. Opposition will also be able to call for backups at much sooner time so your troops could find them selfs fighting with much stronger enemy then expected even before they are able to secure landing zone...

And even those " AA militia troops can pin down invading force for significant amount of time (good example is Ranger air drop at Point Salines during operation Urgent Fury (Grenada)).

[goldenpanda]

I don't know why you fail to see it can be add a useful dimension to the airborne assault. By the time their AA gets hit on the ground they already know the airborne is on the way, so it doesn't lose surprise. And getting pinned down, both me and AA, is just what we want.

[isthvan]

I don't know why you fail to see it can be add a useful dimension to the airborne assault. By the time their AA gets hit on the ground they already know the airborne is on the way, so it doesn't lose surprise. And getting pinned down, both me and AA, is just what we want.

And I don't know why you fail to see that jump in the middle of firefight, against alerted enemy that has reinforcements on the way is worst case scenario that should be avoided at all costs...

[Red not Dead]

Extraction and medivac aren't by no way overplayed. Range can be extended with air refueling and ground fire vulnerability is overrated (transport choppers don't work alone, they are covered by fighters, gunships, and your one ground forces). Plus level of tactical flexibility provided by usage of helicopters is still unmatched by any other way of transport...




Yes Crete is great example; no significant armor opposition, demoralized opponent and so high casualties among invading forces that Germans stopped conducting airborne operations after Crete...




Paratroopers are elite in any army and many will die but task is to hold ground for limited amount of time until main force can arrive and nothing more... Plus if you have option to use choppers why would you use para drop?





And Hannibal proved great level of tactical mobility using elephants. That doesn't mean that for modern warfare there aren't better way to provide mobility to your troops.





HALO - high altitude jump,low altitude opening of parachute

HAHO-high altitude jump, high altitude opening


I fear Isthvan that the Merkur operation was in no way the death of the german FSchJgr but the ongoing of the war. Plus why are you saying that the British had no armour. Basically they had enough fire power to damage heavily the gliders. So that the germans turned then to "grape dropping".

Actually to extend the range of your MEdEVac you have to maintain quite a chain of logistics that is already a heavier price to pay for basically the same result.

I fully disagree with the logics of excessive loss and scattering of the troops. Basically because of the AirMech concept. Either way an Helicopter Insertion, relies on a permanent control of the air space, in other words Air superiority.
Plus there are enough RFID and GPS/Glonass applications to ensure a proper landing on an adequately marked LZ.

Plus people we're on the 21st Century a good ABRN force has already the punch to keep fighting for months (in the case of an independent corps).

But We're loosing the focus of the discussion here. An Airborne operation will always be a spearhead or a tactical developpement to the broader attack, I can hardly see may that be Helicopter insertions or en masse droppings the idea of a "full moon" as a viable war winning tactic.

Think of the air borne as the "guerilla" wing of the PLA. Soviet desantniks were indeed often dropped to stir the famous "partizan divisions".

Be imaginative.

Now fighting back after a crash landing? Against an Army! I'm not speaking against tit bit militias I'm talking about the US 101th birds getting shot by an armed force (I didn't said the IRnA:D :coffee: ) and the crews attempting to salvage them selves from the grip of an average fighting force.