Test Flaws Postpone JF-17

[crazyinsane105]

China’s Chengdu Aircraft (CAC) has postponed delivery of the first FC-1/Super-7 Thunder Dragon light fighter until 2007 to accommodate design changes. CAC says it will roll out a modified FC-1 prototype by year-end featuring revised air intakes, an extended strake and a larger vertical fin. The changes will be incorporated into the fourth prototype aircraft, a model of which was at last week’s Aviation Expo 2005 show in Beijing.

FC-1 Photo Link

Problems with the original FC-1 design began to surface after its first flight in 2003, prompting the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute to start working on a revised version last year. The changes have forced CAC to delay production of the first batch of aircraft for launch customer Pakistan and to postpone delivery of the type from late 2005 until 2007.

CAC is believed to have decided to pursue a revised design for the FC-1’s air intakes after smoke was discovered coming from the aircraft’s Klimov RD-93 engine during test flights.

It is believed test- pilot reports of control problems prompted CAC to also expand the wing leading-edge strakes, while the manufacturer says the vertical fin was elongated to accommodate an expanded equipment bay.

The redesigned FC-1 will have a maximum take-off weight slightly above the 12,400kg (27,300lb) of the original aircraft, but its top speed will be unchanged at Mach 1.6. The first prototype of the new design is scheduled to begin test flights early next year, with another two prototypes to be completed in 2006.

CAC continues to fly two prototypes of the original design, and to use a third for static testing. The company says the new batch of prototypes will initially fly with Chinese avionics, but will later be modified with Western systems. Pakistan is now evaluating British, French and Italian avionics packages and is expected to make a selection next year.

Islamabad has already ordered 16 FC-1s, assembly of which will be split between CAC and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, and may acquire up to 134 more locally assembled aircraft.

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/09/27/201773/Test+flaws+prompt+rethink+on+China%e2%80%99s+FC-1+light+fighter.html

Well, since the JF-17 is being redesigned, I guess that it is natural for this to occur. Even though it is going to be postponed, the JF-17 probably won't be outdated once it hits serial production (in the postponment, more modifications and improvements will probably be made).

[MIGleader]

well, i guess th wait is needed. they still need a while before they can put the ws-13 on it. remebr, they can export the rd-93.

[vincelee]

well, the smoke problem was just that, a smoke problem. RD-33 equiped MiG-29s have the same problem, but I gotta say, the first test flight of the FC-1 was pretty damned smokey.


.....maybe it was humid that day.

[Chairman Hu]

Oh man... not the engine problem...

great... there goes my dream of the RD-93 engine instead of the RR engine for the JH-7...

So the FC-1 is gonna be delayed for another year, have they found the problem and solved it yet?

[tphuang]

seriously, this is clearly designed just for PAF. If not for PAF's constant spec changes, it'd be out already.

[vincelee]

RD-33/93 is too big for the JH-7.

[Gollevainen]

well, i guess th wait is needed. they still need a while before they can put the ws-13 on it. remebr, they can export the rd-93.

China will never put the WP-13 on it cos its TURPOJET engine not Turbofan...and don't come giving me the bullshit that turbojets still have their place in the modern aviation industry cos they don't.

RD-33/93 is too big for the JH-7.

yeas...althoug roughly the same weight and diameters, RD-33 is almoust twice as long as the Spey...
But can it go anotherway around? Spey/WS-9 on the FC-1?

[chinawhite]

Wow the FC-1 turned out a very good fighter.

Looks like a falcon crossed with a hornet

[skyhawk2005]

Who's paying for the changes?

I agree that PAF is the one who is instigating these changes. FC1/JF17 was all good at first report. You don't go months and months, even years, where FC1/JF17 flight performance is good, and suddenly it has developed problems.

Most likely, with the recent F16 purchases, the PAF can afford the wait/delay of the FC1/JF17 project and change/revise it's performance target goals.

So who's paying for these changes? China? PAF?

I really don't understand what PLAAF is doing here. They should devote most of their resources to developing JXX, and getting the WS10A out.

Spending resources in time, and money on JF17 is questionable since there are doubts on whether the FC1 wil be inducted into the PLAAF.

[skyhawk2005]

Why is China doing this?

First of all, the FC1/JF17 will be mainly a Pakistani plane. Sure, China may export some FC1s but even then, it will have to share it's profits 50/50 with Pakistan.

I don't understand the need for China to do this when it has J10, J11, and JXX. The FC1 shouldn't be inducted into China's airforce. It's range is too short, and aside from price, there is nothing the FC1 can do that the J10 cannot do better.

China should be devoting its resources to completing the WS10A. And developing JXX. Even the J10/J11 are merely stopgaps, not a final solution because third generation planes are insufficient to match fourth generation stealth fighters like the F22.

[skyhawk2005]

China will never put the WP-13 on it cos its TURPOJET engine not Turbofan...and don't come giving me the bullshit that turbojets still have their place in the modern aviation industry cos they don't.



yeas...althoug roughly the same weight and diameters, RD-33 is almoust twice as long as the Spey...
But can it go anotherway around? Spey/WS-9 on the FC-1?



A turbofan is a turbojet with turbine blades in the front. Any turbojet can be converted into a turbofan, very easily.

[Gollevainen]

A turbofan is a turbojet with turbine blades in the front. Any turbojet can be converted into a turbofan, very easily.

Yeas, turpofan is a turpojet whit fans, everyone knows that. But "any turbojet can be convered to turpofan EASILY" is bullshit. It's complex mechanical desing prosess requiring lots of know-how...or by following your logic, China would have produced indegenious turpofans years ago...

[FreeAsia2000]

Why is China doing this?

First of all, the FC1/JF17 will be mainly a Pakistani plane. Sure, China may export some FC1s but even then, it will have to share it's profits 50/50 with Pakistan.

I don't understand the need for China to do this when it has J10, J11, and JXX. The FC1 shouldn't be inducted into China's airforce. It's range is too short, and aside from price, there is nothing the FC1 can do that the J10 cannot do better.

China should be devoting its resources to completing the WS10A. And developing JXX. Even the J10/J11 are merely stopgaps, not a final solution because third generation planes are insufficient to match fourth generation stealth fighters like the F22.

China is acting strategically. China wants to remove Pakistan's reasons
for relying on America. Pakistan agreed because at the time Pakistan
had no reason to believe it would ever be getting any equipment from
America.

It has to do with long term military procurement plans and politics

[adeptitus]

China is acting strategically. China wants to remove Pakistan's reasons
for relying on America. Pakistan agreed because at the time Pakistan
had no reason to believe it would ever be getting any equipment from
America.
It has to do with long term military procurement plans and politics

Aye

Any weapon sales from Washington require notification and approval from the US Congress. In other words the changing winds of US politics can affect your supply of weapons, munitions, and parts.

The US made Block 52+ F-16's are better - they're techically mature, mass produced and ready to roll down the assembly line. The FC-1/JF-17 is not a proven warplane. But Pakistan can depend on PRC to supply parts and munitions in the future.

An inferior JF-17 in flying condition, is better than a superior F-16 in non-flying condition.

[MIGleader]

i dont think pakistans f-16s are going to be much better that the new fc-1. their f-16s are not so advanced. but pakistan nneds to shre the radar with china.

[tphuang]

if the PAF gets block 50/52, it would be significantly better than FC-1.

[tphuang]

Why is China doing this?

First of all, the FC1/JF17 will be mainly a Pakistani plane. Sure, China may export some FC1s but even then, it will have to share it's profits 50/50 with Pakistan.

I don't understand the need for China to do this when it has J10, J11, and JXX. The FC1 shouldn't be inducted into China's airforce. It's range is too short, and aside from price, there is nothing the FC1 can do that the J10 cannot do better.

China should be devoting its resources to completing the WS10A. And developing JXX. Even the J10/J11 are merely stopgaps, not a final solution because third generation planes are insufficient to match fourth generation stealth fighters like the F22.
well, why is Russia producing su-30mki and su-30mkk? newer innovation, sell to keep the industry going. Remember, China will probably gets first hand examination over the Western radar put on JF-17. That will really be helpful in our avionics development.

[skyhawk2005]

well, why is Russia producing su-30mki and su-30mkk? newer innovation, sell to keep the industry going. Remember, China will probably gets first hand examination over the Western radar put on JF-17. That will really be helpful in our avionics development.


Pakistan is going to get the JF17 free. And any export of the FC1, Pakistan also receives 50%. I don't think the FC1 will earn that much revenue for China.

They should export J10s if they want revenue.

[FreeAsia2000]

skyhawk

China see's Pakistan as it's way of opening up the middle-eastern, south-east asian and central asian market.

In effect Pakistan is paving the way for China to export it's weapons to them in the future. In addition Pakistan with it's much coveted american 'rogue' status can hardly be expected to abide by international norms when exporting weapons. China doing the same would have diplomatic problems.

Pakistan frequently acts as a fulcrum for China's policies with other countries.
Eg Pakistan acted as a go between to improve Sino-American ties during the 1970's.

Don't be confused by the weaving hand...look at the gaze

[MIGleader]

no skyhawk, pakistan is buying the first fc-1's not for free.

[skyhawk2005]

no skyhawk, pakistan is buying the first fc-1's not for free.


Well..say China sells Pakistan 10 JF17s. Pakistan still earns 50% so they are getting a 50% discount.

And it will only be for 10 or so JF17s. After which, production will transfer to Pakistan, where they will make it 100%.

So where's the revenue for China?

Any sales of JF17, Pakistan gets 50%.

[skyhawk2005]

skyhawk

China see's Pakistan as it's way of opening up the middle-eastern, south-east asian and central asian market.

In effect Pakistan is paving the way for China to export it's weapons to them in the future. In addition Pakistan with it's much coveted american 'rogue' status can hardly be expected to abide by international norms when exporting weapons. China doing the same would have diplomatic problems.

Pakistan frequently acts as a fulcrum for China's policies with other countries.
Eg Pakistan acted as a go between to improve Sino-American ties during the 1970's.

Don't be confused by the weaving hand...look at the gaze


That's not true. China doesn't need Pakistan to sell to the middle east. China sold Egypt J7s, and K8s. And other middle eastern countries like Iran are interested in the FC1.

China's interest in Pakistan is strategic. Pakistan is China's Israel.

[crazyinsane105]

That's not true. China doesn't need Pakistan to sell to the middle east. China sold Egypt J7s, and K8s. And other middle eastern countries like Iran are interested in the FC1.

China's interest in Pakistan is strategic. Pakistan is China's Israel.

Not really. Israel gets billions of dollars in aide from US, both economical and military, from the US on a yearly basis. Pakistan has not received anything like that from China. The friendship of Pakistan and China is one out of mutual respect and strategic interests.

[Su-27 Pilot]

China’s Chengdu Aircraft (CAC) has postponed delivery of the first FC-1/Super-7 Thunder Dragon light fighter until 2007 to accommodate design changes. CAC says it will roll out a modified FC-1 prototype by year-end featuring revised air intakes, an extended strake and a larger vertical fin. The changes will be incorporated into the fourth prototype aircraft, a model of which was at last week’s Aviation Expo 2005 show in Beijing.

FC-1 Photo Link

Problems with the original FC-1 design began to surface after its first flight in 2003, prompting the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute to start working on a revised version last year. The changes have forced CAC to delay production of the first batch of aircraft for launch customer Pakistan and to postpone delivery of the type from late 2005 until 2007.

CAC is believed to have decided to pursue a revised design for the FC-1’s air intakes after smoke was discovered coming from the aircraft’s Klimov RD-93 engine during test flights.

It is believed test- pilot reports of control problems prompted CAC to also expand the wing leading-edge strakes, while the manufacturer says the vertical fin was elongated to accommodate an expanded equipment bay.

The redesigned FC-1 will have a maximum take-off weight slightly above the 12,400kg (27,300lb) of the original aircraft, but its top speed will be unchanged at Mach 1.6. The first prototype of the new design is scheduled to begin test flights early next year, with another two prototypes to be completed in 2006.

CAC continues to fly two prototypes of the original design, and to use a third for static testing. The company says the new batch of prototypes will initially fly with Chinese avionics, but will later be modified with Western systems. Pakistan is now evaluating British, French and Italian avionics packages and is expected to make a selection next year.

Islamabad has already ordered 16 FC-1s, assembly of which will be split between CAC and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, and may acquire up to 134 more locally assembled aircraft.

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/09/27/201773/Test+flaws+prompt+rethink+on+China%e2%80%99s+FC-1+light+fighter.html

Well, since the JF-17 is being redesigned, I guess that it is natural for this to occur. Even though it is going to be postponed, the JF-17 probably won't be outdated once it hits serial production (in the postponment, more modifications and improvements will probably be made).

Well, its better than fix these problems now then later.

[tphuang]

Not really. Israel gets billions of dollars in aide from US, both economical and military, from the US on a yearly basis. Pakistan has not received anything like that from China. The friendship of Pakistan and China is one out of mutual respect and strategic interests.
China will get money from selling to Pakistan. I don't get what's this stuff about PAF getting it for free. PAF will get it cheaper than other countries, but not free. Only the ones built in Pakistan will not cost them anything. Even PLAAF has to pay CAC for the planes it build.

JF-17 is pretty much just for export.

[MIGleader]

china needs to buy the fc-1. arnt they looking for a cheap replacement for the j-7's? fc-1 is perfect. plaaf purchases will also lower export costs.

[President]

China will get money from selling to Pakistan. I don't get what's this stuff about PAF getting it for free. PAF will get it cheaper than other countries, but not free. Only the ones built in Pakistan will not cost them anything. Even PLAAF has to pay CAC for the planes it build.

i dont think so, FC-1 is a JIONT VENTURE between CAC and Pakistani Aeronautical Complex (PAC). Thats means pakistani invested share capitals, thus, no matter PAF buy or PLAAF buy or other countries buy JF-16, any profit from sales of JF-16 will be shared by CAC and PAC. i think they want PLAAF buy FC-1 because they want sales and profit to compensate cost and capital invested on FC-1 poject. that why they say will lower the cost since JF-16 is a for-profit product to ChengDU and PAC. So, PAF and PLAAF are treated as domestic customer by ChengDU and PAC. and other countries' air force are treated as export makerts by ChengDU and PAC

[tphuang]

i dont think so, FC-1 is a JIONT VENTURE between CAC and Pakistani Aeronautical Complex (PAC). Thats means pakistani invested share capitals, thus, no matter PAF buy or PLAAF buy or other countries buy JF-16, any profit from sales of JF-16 will be shared by CAC and PAC. i think they want PLAAF buy FC-1 because they want sales and profit to compensate cost and capital invested on FC-1 poject. that why they say will lower the cost since JF-16 is a for-profit product to ChengDU and PAC. So, PAF and PLAAF are treated as domestic customer by ChengDU and PAC. and other countries' air force are treated as export makerts by ChengDU and PAC
if CAC is loosing money on each plane it produces, then it wouldn't be producing them any more. Why do you think FC-1 is going through so many redesigns? It's all because CAC is worried that PAF won't purchase the promised 150 fighters, because it's getting 75 block 50/52 F-15s.

It's just business, if PLAAF doesn't pay CAC money, CAC would not produce any JF-17s for PLAAF either. Here is the deal, PAF paid half of the developmental cost so that it gets ToT of a decent plane (by Chinese/pakistani standard). Remember, PAF has never developed a fighter this advanced.

As for future exports, it all depends on who is supplying the parts and building the planes. Obviously, both sides will share the royalties, but the plant that builds it will get the majority of the proceeds. It's just common logic.

[tphuang]

china needs to buy the fc-1. arnt they looking for a cheap replacement for the j-7's? fc-1 is perfect. plaaf purchases will also lower export costs.
with the new DSI instake, the improved avionics and FBW software, FC-1 really isn't as cheap as it used to be. In fact, Kanwa says that some of the new desings in FC-1 will appear in future J-10 variants (I'm guessing DSI is the most obvious one).

[FreeAsia2000]

That's not true. China doesn't need Pakistan to sell to the middle east. China sold Egypt J7s, and K8s. And other middle eastern countries like Iran are interested in the FC1.

China's interest in Pakistan is strategic. Pakistan is China's Israel.

China has a long-standing proliferation policy, one developed during the Cold War and based on its own geopolitical assessments and national interests rather than on nonproliferation norms, international agreements and laws. While the United States busily chased Soviet Russia on a bipolar basis, China was active in laying the groundwork for a North (Chinese)-South (Pakistan and the Middle East) axis. Seeing Pakistan as a critical gateway, a channel by which to move both conventional and nuclear armament, Beijing sought to serve Pakistani military needs in order to maintain a line of pressure against India (a Chinese interest in the context of its military confrontation with New Delhi). At the same time, Pakistan acted as China’s gateway into the Middle East when confrontations with the United States left Beijing a pariah in international circles. Reputedly a moderate Muslim country, Pakistan sought a role as the interlocutor for the United Kingdom and the United States in the Middle East, and China saw the value in this line of thinking. Ironically, in the early 1950s the U.S. Department of State promoted Pakistan as a leading voice in the Middle East to fight Soviet and Indian "imperialism," giving military and diplomatic aid to service this policy. In hindsight, the United States gained little from this approach while China has effectively used Pakistan as its channel into select Middle Eastern countries since the 1960s. The literature shows the chronology and pattern of Chinese supply relations to Pakistan and the Middle East.

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:LPQlRH7ylroJ:www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php%3Fvolume_id%3D395%26i

[adeptitus]

My $0.02

Q. Why did China agree to the FC-1/JF-17 development?

A. Because someone else (Pakistan) agreed to pay 1/2 the R&D costs.

Someone pays 1/2 the bills and you get the reap the benefits. What a great deal.

[crazyinsane105]

My $0.02

Q. Why did China agree to the FC-1/JF-17 development?

A. Because someone else (Pakistan) agreed to pay 1/2 the R&D costs.

Someone pays 1/2 the bills and you get the reap the benefits. What a great deal.

Plus you get to develop another fighter jet. :cool:

[skyhawk2005]

My $0.02

Q. Why did China agree to the FC-1/JF-17 development?

A. Because someone else (Pakistan) agreed to pay 1/2 the R&D costs.

Someone pays 1/2 the bills and you get the reap the benefits. What a great deal.


Not really. There is nothing that the FC1 provides for China in terms of R&D. Actually, many of the R&D fruits of the J10 is flowing into the FC1/JF17 in terms of radar, SD 10 missile, composites, and this benefits only Pakistan. There is nothing the FC1 project offers technologically wise to China.

The only reason China is doing this is strategic reasons. They want to keep Pakistan a close ally. From a monetary and resource point of view, the FC1 is a loser for China. Pakistan paid about 150million, a paltry sum for development of a 3rd generation fighter. Granted, Chengdu needs external funds to operate, but given China's military budget, they do not really need Pakistan funds.

[MIGleader]

an fc-1 still has potential, being such a new plane. its also cheap. see, the fc-1 has similar 2a performance as a f-16, but is 10-15 mil cheaper. and if the pakistanis can upgrade it with some american equipment, then they dont f-16s anymore.

[crazyinsane105]

Here is a website just for the JF-17. It was made by a PDF member.

http://www.jf-17.com/

I really like it because it is a pretty good informative site.