Chinese espionage thread [Archive] - China Defence Today Forum

Jeff Head

11-05-2005, 10:57 AM

Here's an article about the PLAN potentially acquiring sensitive info regarding US AEGIS capabilities and info that would allow the PLAN to track new US Virginia class submarines. If it proves to be true, it is a major coup for the PLAN, and a horrific mistake and strategic loss for the US Navy.

Washington Times, Nov 5, 2005 (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051104-111851-2539r.htm)

Four persons arrested in Los Angeles are part of a Chinese intelligence-gathering ring, federal investigators said, and the suspects caused serious compromises for 15 years to major U.S. weapons systems, including submarines and warships.

U.S. intelligence and security officials said the case remains under investigation but that it could prove to be among the most damaging spy cases since the 1985 one of John A. Walker Jr., who passed Navy communication codes to Moscow for 22 years.

The Los Angeles spy ring has operated since 1990 and has funneled technology and military secrets to China in the form of documents and computer disks, officials close to the case said.

The ring was led by Chi Mak and his wife, Rebecca Laiwah Chiu, along with Mr. Chi's brother, Tai Wang Mak, and his wife, Fuk Heung Li, officials said.

Key compromises uncovered so far include sensitive data on Aegis battle management systems that are the core of U.S. Navy destroyers and cruisers.

China covertly obtained the Aegis technology and earlier this year deployed its first Aegis warship, code-named Magic Shield, intelligence officials have said.

The Chinese also obtained sensitive data on U.S. submarines, including classified details related to the new Virginia-class attack submarines.

Officials said based on a preliminary assessment, China now will be able to track U.S. submarines, a compromise that potentially could be devastating if the United States enters a conflict with China in defending Taiwan.

Mr. Chi, an electrical engineer, also had access to details on U.S. aircraft carriers and once was aboard the USS Stennis. A Pentagon report made public earlier this year said China's military is building up capabilities to attack U.S. aircraft carriers.

bd popeye

11-05-2005, 11:11 AM

I was on strike..never mind.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the source of this story. The Washington Times. It is a very, very consertive newspaper. With in my opinion a great bias towards the PRC. They have been long publishing nonsense about the PRC. Honestly I don't trust them.

I'm going to check my sources,my son, this weekend to see what unclassified info I can get out of him..

I just did a yahoo search on this subjet. I could not find a single coroberating article about this.
Like I said I do not trust the Washington Times on anything about the PRC.

vincelee

11-05-2005, 11:42 AM

washington times might as well be the mouthpiece of the neo cons. Not counting the weekly standard of course. When you have morons like Bill Gertz (quoting Dickass Fisher), it shows that you're going for the sensationalistic side of journalism.

chopsticks

11-05-2005, 12:49 PM

its a "face-saving" way of admitting how Aegis is ineffective and easily copied...

besides, China doesn't need to "spy" on Usa for tech, she just needs R&D, because she has like millions of military related tech engineers..
to build the A-bomb China used something like 100k engineers... that why it took so fast to develop it.

MIGleader

11-05-2005, 01:58 PM

bullshit. the obtaining of aegis info is very difficult. the soviets never suceeded. washington must realize spying is done through busineess now adays

bd popeye

11-05-2005, 05:17 PM

its a "face-saving" way of admitting how Aegis is ineffective and easily copied...

Chopsticks ,sir..You have no clue how well Aegis works. You really don't. Aegis system is constanly updated.

As far as I can ascertain it has not been comprimised. Neither has the sub technology. That word comes from a good source. My son. He works with elements of the Aegis system 5 days a week.

I atempted eariler to find more info about the arrest of the alledged spies. But I found nothing on line outside of the Washington Times. Can anyone find a more reliable source on this story?

tphuang

11-05-2005, 05:27 PM

total bs,another article raising the idea of "China threat". I don't think I need to explain again how hard it is to copy Aegis system.

bd popeye

11-05-2005, 05:42 PM

Ah Ha! I found a better source for the story by searching the woman arrested name. Read the story from yahoo news(Assoicated Press) and see how it differs from the Washington Times. See if this story quotes US intelligence and security officals like the Washington Times says it does..Nope!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051105/ap_on_re_us/navy_secrets_indictment

Four Charged in Plan to Send China Secrets Fri Nov 4,10:07 PM ET

LOS ANGELES - An engineer and Chinese television director are among four people indicted on charges of stealing secret documents on Navy warships and trying to smuggle them to China, prosecutors said Friday.

Chi Mak, a naturalized U.S. citizen from China who lives in Los Angeles County, was arrested Oct. 28. He allegedly took computer disks from Anaheim defense contractor Power Paragon, where he was lead engineer on a research project involving warship propulsion systems, according to an FBI affidavit.

He also allegedly e-mailed photos and reports about the project to his home computer.

Authorities say Chi Mak and his wife copied the information onto CDs and delivered them to Mak's brother, Tai Wang Mak, a broadcast and engineering director for the Phoenix North American Chinese Channel.

Tai Wang Mak was scheduled to fly to Hong Kong on Oct. 28 with his wife. From there, he allegedly planned to travel to Guangzhou, China, to meet a contact.

Chi Mak and Tai Wang Mak were both charged, along with their wives, Rebecca Laiwah Chiu and Fuk Heung Li, according to a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office.

The four face charges of stealing government property, transportation of stolen goods and conspiracy, said spokesman Thom Mrozek.

Chi Mak was ordered held without bail on Monday.

Chiu, an American of Chinese descent, appeared in court Friday and bail was set at $300,000. However, it will take several days for bond to be posted, Mrozek said. She will then be under house arrest with electronic monitoring.

Tai Wang Mak, a Chinese citizen and legal U.S. resident, also made a court appearance, but his bond hearing was postponed until Monday, when his wife, a legal resident from China, is also scheduled to appear in court.

Check the other 4 stories in the yahoo search...see what they say.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv1-&p=Rebecca+Laiwah+Chiu

FriedRiceNSpice

11-05-2005, 05:44 PM

to build the A-bomb China used something like 100k engineers... that why it took so fast to develop it.

Actually the reason is that the Soviets gave them the blueprints.

bullshit. the obtaining of aegis info is very difficult. the soviets never suceeded. washington must realize spying is done through busineess now adays

Don't copy Yue. Saying bullshit doesn't make you as cool as Yue, you have to be smart like him. Also, the Soviets easily could've developed something better than the Aegis. Thats why they didn't need to steal it.

MIGleader

11-05-2005, 06:33 PM

Actually the reason is that the Soviets gave them the blueprints.

Don't copy Yue. Saying bullshit doesn't make you as cool as Yue, you have to be smart like him. Also, the Soviets easily could've developed something better than the Aegis. Thats why they didn't need to steal it.

what is your problem? :mad: do you dislike everything i say? dont you get gollevainens "no crap" message? the soviets did make an attempt at making aegis-like system called skywatch. it was plagued by enormous technical difficulty and eventually got installed only on admiral kutznesov. and i dont think its fully operational even.

FriedRiceNSpice

11-05-2005, 06:42 PM

what is your problem? :mad: do you dislike everything i say? dont you get gollevainens "no crap" message? the soviets did make an attempt at making aegis-like system called skywatch. it was plagued by enormous technical difficulty and eventually got installed only on admiral kutznesov. and i dont think its fully operational even.

Good job! You didn't post a one-liner this time. And Skywatch was designed by the Soviets and not copied from American designs, which proves my point exactly.

MIGleader

11-05-2005, 07:52 PM

Good job! You didn't post a one-liner this time. And Skywatch was designed by the Soviets and not copied from American designs, which proves my point exactly.

you said the soviets can make something better than aegis, which shywatch is not. aegis is installed on nearly 80 warships of three countries, and will be installed partly on spanish ships soon. skywatch is half operational on a single ship.

chopsticks

11-05-2005, 09:57 PM

u guys have to calm down...

okay, so assume the spying thingy is for real, then wouldn't many other Us technologies be compromised too? :(

and btw, i think Russian spies are much more effective (because they have blond hair!!!). :p

and also, i think Usa has been spying on many other countries too, i don't think sending a plane scooting around Chinese skies is all there is to it.. :mad:

personally, i am NOT for stealing tech... its just really not right.

and.. to bd popeye sir,

i thought your son was a sonar tech on board submarine????? and submarines have aegis?????

anyway just curious, since u r almost as old as my dad, what do u think of the roswell incident??

chinawhite

11-05-2005, 10:02 PM

whats new

This is nothing new. the US has been accusing chinese of stealing technology and chinese americans thinking that the PLA will buy them. But this sounds like americans paying people to actually take the fall.

Hyping the china thread anyone?.

None of these people had links to the US military or were designing american military gear.

This is true paranoia on a national scale

This insident is not about stealig technology but more like knowing your enemy kind of thing.Chinese engineers would need a example of this technology to actually copy the design.

Regards,

Chinawhite

bd popeye

11-06-2005, 02:53 PM

and.. to bd popeye sir,

i thought your son was a sonar tech on board submarine????? and submarines have aegis?????

He is a sonar tech. Right now he is an instructor at the ASW school in San Diego. He works with Aegis related systems everyday....Can't really say how. but I know he is...It's all incompassing what he instructs. Advanced sonar technology.

He is a surface sailor. Not a "bubblehead" as we use to say in the Navy.

Jeff Head

11-06-2005, 05:13 PM

I just did a yahoo search on this subjet. I could not find a single coroberating article about this.BBC also reporting this...HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4409216.stm) A search today also had it show up HERE, on something called the World Peace Herald (http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20051105-064108-8275r). Same basic story as Gertz...with a little more detail. Gertz clearly has his opinion, but in this report, while perhaps a little earlier than the others, and therefore without as much detail, the essentials of what he reported appear to be correct.

We will see what a trial brings.

whats new

This is nothing new. the US has been accusing chinese of stealing technology and chinese americans thinking that the PLA will buy them. None of these people had links to the US military or were designing american military gear.

This is true paranoia on a national scaleUh, actually one of the the principle suspects arrested worked for a US defense contractor. Here's a quote from the AP story that Popeye posted on this thread...
Chi Mak, a naturalized U.S. citizen from China who lives in Los Angeles County, was arrested Oct. 28. He allegedly took computer disks from Anaheim defense contractor Power Paragon, where he was lead engineer on a research project involving warship propulsion systems, according to an FBI affidavit.

bd popeye

11-06-2005, 08:17 PM

Mr. Chi, an electrical engineer, also had access to details on U.S. aircraft carriers and once was aboard the USS Stennis. A Pentagon report made public earlier this year said China's military is building up capabilities to attack U.S. aircraft carriers.

I was on board 5 carriers for atotal of 6 years actual at sea time and I can't build one...

I hate when these articles incorrectly list ships names. It says USS Stennis. It's USS John C. Stennis.

All levity aside this thing is really big or it is just a little pimple in the world of espionage. I don't think Mr Chi Mak was a spy. Probaly just sopmeone trying to get rich quick...But then again he could be an PRC agent planted long ago..Who knows?????

chinawhite

11-07-2005, 12:20 AM

Jeff Head

**-Uh, actually one of the the principle suspects arrested worked for a US defense contractor. Here's a quote from the AP story that Popeye posted on this thread..-**

I knew he was a engineer but only as one designing new type of propulsion systems for both civillan and military purposes.

My arguement stills stands, He might have worked for a company that makes weapons for the army but is that a connection?

Regards,

Chinawhite

Jeff Head

11-07-2005, 01:07 AM

He might have worked for a company that makes weapons for the army but is that a connection?The article says this about him, "he was lead engineer on a research project involving warship propulsion systems". That means he was working on US defense systems...propulsion systems for the US Navy. He is alleged to have copied info related to those designs and tried to pass them to China via his brother. He will get a fair trial and we shall see iof those charges stand.

I don't think Mr Chi Mak was a spy. Probaly just sopmeone trying to get rich quick...But then again he could be an PRC agent planted long ago..Who knows?????Could well be so...but if he was able to get info regarding our new subs to the PLAN...it would be a significant loss for us...and danger...and a huge coup for the PLAN.

He will get a fair trial and we shall see what comes out in that trial to either substantiate these charges or clear them.

chinawhite

11-07-2005, 01:35 AM

@Jeff Head

**-The article says this about him, "he was lead engineer on a research project involving warship propulsion systems". That means he was working on US defense systems...propulsion systems for the US Navy. He is alleged to have copied info related to those designs and tried to pass them to China via his brother. He will get a fair trial and we shall see iof those charges stand. -**

here is the quote

He allegedly took computer disks from Anaheim defense contractor Power Paragon, where he was lead engineer on a research project involving warship propulsion systems, according to an FBI affidavit.

I think a propulsion system on a warship would be just as useful on a civillan craft. It would be logical to assume this company would design one for both purposes. No many projects are exclusively military only

The article should actually read "research project involving ship propulsion systems".

Ever heard of sensational journalism? hyping the article content of his work he was involed in.

Regards,

Chinawhite

Mazepa

11-07-2005, 09:45 AM

This all reminds me about how the propeller from the Collins Class submarines designed for the Australian Navy by Swedish firm Kockums was removed and shipped to USA without Swedish permission.. I guess they wanted to analyze it and get the signature. The bottom line should be to trust no one when it comes to spying ;)

walter

11-07-2005, 12:26 PM

I found an article with some more details--it doesn't sound like the lead engineer was working on projects with civilian applications:

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article-eastasia.asp?parentid=32845

some quotes from the article:

Mak Tai-wing had married Li Fuk-heung in Hong Kong. Both are permanent residents of the US. Mak Chi is a high-level engineer with Power Paragon of Anaheim, California, a subsidiary of L-3/SPD Technologies/Power Systems Group, a defence contractor that develops advanced technologies for naval systems. He had secrets clearance and was the lead project engineer at Power Paragon on a research project involving Quiet Electric Drive (QED) technology for use aboard US Navy warships.

"QED is an extremely sensitive project," the FBI said. The US Navy considers it "significant military equipment" and the US bans its export to most countries.

now, this is still very recent so we can't immediately draw conclusions, but all I can say is that China spies on the US and vice versa. I'm not getting political or country bashing here, just stating a fact, so honestly, even if such news turns out to be true it can't come as much of a surprise.

Lavi

11-07-2005, 01:44 PM

all I can say is that China spies on the US and vice versa. I'm not getting political or country bashing here, just stating a fact, so honestly, even if such news turns out to be true it can't come as much of a surprise.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

The great question here is of course if these persons really are spies, which we will know when they have recieved their trials, and if that's the case, wheter they where members of the Chinese intelligence agency, or simply acting on their own.

MIGleader

11-07-2005, 05:30 PM

Couldn't have said it better myself!

The great question here is of course if these persons really are spies, which we will know when they have recieved their trials, and if that's the case, wheter they where members of the Chinese intelligence agency, or simply acting on their own.
like the korean guiy who bought black hawk engines for china? maybe the chinese bribed him. i dont see why china wouldnt want to take advantage of chinese-americans in american business.

Jeff Head

11-07-2005, 06:53 PM

@Jeff Head-The article says this about him, "he was lead engineer on a research project involving warship propulsion systems". That means he was working on US defense systems...propulsion systems for the US Navy. He is alleged to have copied info related to those designs and tried to pass them to China via his brother. He will get a fair trial and we shall see iof those charges stand. -**

think a propulsion system on a warship would be just as useful on a civillan craft. It would be logical to assume this company would design one for both purposes. No many projects are exclusively military only

The article should actually read "research project involving ship propulsion systems". That's your interpretation...unfortunately, the one that matters right now is the FBI's interpretation and they have arrested the man.

You may well think the propulsion systems are the same, but particularly for subs and high tech surface combatants...they are not.

Sorry, over the last few days here (also posted by Walter on this thread) it has become apparent that the guy was a defense contractor with secret clearance and working on exclusive and secret military propulsion systems. If it is true he tried to sell those...then he deserves a real long vacation in a gray rock hotel somewhere.

It is the nature of the activity...if you spy and get caught, generally you go away for a long time...on which ever side of the fence you are working. That is not sensationalising or hype...it is just the facts. The US and China spy on each other...that's not a surprise. This guy, if he was a spy, apparently got caught.

I found an article with some more details--it doesn't sound like the lead engineer was working on projects with civilian applications:
now, this is still very recent so we can't immediately draw conclusions, but all I can say is that China spies on the US and vice versa. I'm not getting political or country bashing here, just stating a fact, so honestly, even if such news turns out to be true it can't come as much of a surprise.Thanks for the additional info. Well said.

FriedRiceNSpice

11-07-2005, 09:22 PM

personally, i am NOT for stealing tech... its just really not right.

There's is nothing wrong with that, morally and ethically, that is. I beleive human knowledge and technology should be used for the benefit of all.

MIGleader

11-07-2005, 09:47 PM

There's is nothing wrong with that, morally and ethically, that is. I beleive human knowledge and technology should be used for the benefit of all.

depends on what its used for, and how this tech will affect the world in the hands of a new user.monopoly tech needs to be stolen, for the sake of stability.

bd popeye

11-08-2005, 10:32 AM

He is a sonar tech. Right now he is an instructor at the ASW school in San Diego. He works with Aegis related systems everyday....Can't really say how. but I know he is...It's all incompassing what he instructs. Advanced sonar technology.

I need to clearfiy something here. I did not intend to imply that Aegis works underwater. I did not. As a sonar thech and a Enlisted Surface Warfare Speicalist

http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/14504/css/14504_69.htm

My son's job requires him to work with the Aegis system almost daily. Surface Warfare ratings work hand in hand with each other. There is a lot of cross training in the modern USN.

Dongfeng

11-08-2005, 02:13 PM

China covertly obtained the Aegis technology and earlier this year deployed its first Aegis warship, code-named Magic Shield, intelligence officials have said.

Actually, 'Magic Shield', or 'Shen Dun' in Chinese, is actually the Chinese translation of Aegis. When people see the Aegis-like radar systems installed on the Type 052C destroyers, they do not know its Chinese designation, so they borrowed the name 'Aegis', or sometimes 'Chinese Aegis', to refer to the unknown radar system. Now this name has been translated back to English and is said to be the codename of the Chinese radar system by this report.

I would rather believe this radar is actually based on Russia technology than U.S. technology, though I have no doubt that there ARE Chinese spies operating in the U.S., but then again, which country hasn't? There is a long list: Russia/Soviet Union, France, Iran...etc

tphuang

11-08-2005, 11:29 PM

the radar is developed with a lot of help from kvant, no question about that. The question is what kind of software help China got.

Jeff Head

11-09-2005, 12:50 PM

have no doubt that there ARE Chinese spies operating in the U.S., but then again, which country hasn't? There is a long list: Russia/Soviet Union, France, Iran...etcExactly. There is no doubt whatsoever that both sides are doing this. In this case, some doing so for the PRC may have gotten caught. They will get a fair trial in the US and we shall see what the results are.

My point is this...if the charges are true, and the PRC did get any serious AEGIS and particulalry SSN Virginia class information allowing the PLAN to easily track and find Virginia class boats...that would be a huge coup for the PLAN and a huge loss for the US Navy. If it is true, you can expect to see the two existing Virginia class go through some refits and changes that will be incorporated into all of the new boats.

We shall see.

bd popeye

11-09-2005, 01:05 PM

Exactly. There is no doubt whatsoever that both sides are doing this. In this case, some doing so for the PRC may have gotten caught. They will get a fair trial in the US and we shall see what the results are.

My point is this...if the charges are true, and the PRC did get any serious AEGIS and particulalry SSN Virginia class information allowing the PLAN to easily track and find Virginia class boats...that would be a huge coup for the PLAN and a huge loss for the US Navy. If it is true, you can expect to see the two existing Virginia class go through some refits and changes that will be incorporated into all of the new boats.

We shall see.

I doubt if the PLAN can figure out the acoustic signature of those new boats by just downloading some info off a disc...I hope nothing was comprmised. From what I understand the main figure,Mr Mak Chi, did "visit" the new Seawolf and Virgina class subs. What did he do on those visits? I don't think he was taking pictures.

Also if he did compromise the Aegis system what sort of information was he privvie to? Generally classified info is on a need to know basis.

One thing that is very intresting is that no one has been charged with espionage. But like Jeff says we will have to wait and see!

MIGleader

11-09-2005, 03:54 PM

the radar is developed with a lot of help from kvant, no question about that. The question is what kind of software help China got.

people are thinking it was the imported french thales 2000, combined with any stole aegis related technology. so you cant say its an aegis "copy". its merely a chinese version. i wouldnt call it software, maybe just a data bus. software implys Windows...

adeptitus

11-09-2005, 08:19 PM

@_@

So far I read most of the articles claim that the theft was "propulsion systems data". This is not mentioned anywhere on the Washington Times article.

The Washington Times article stated:
"the suspects caused serious compromises for 15 years to major U.S. weapons system"
"Key compromises uncovered so far include sensitive data on Aegis battle management systems that are the core of U.S. Navy destroyers and cruisers."

Which has nothing to do with propulsion systems.

Like others have already said, there's no doubt that there's spying between all major powers. If you catch a spy, you simply put him/her behind bars and move on. The situation today is far calmer than early cold war era, I doubt the US, Russia, or PRC has executed a single spy in the last decade.

Are these 4 people guilty of espionage? We don't know, but I believe they will get a fair trial. If you think they'd be presumed guilty by racial profile, remember that newspaper columnists do not represent the legal system. In both Wen Ho Lee and James Yee's case, charges were dropped and, with Dr. Lee, the judge personally apologized for the Federal Government's "abuse of power".

BUT -

We must also realize the hypocrisy of people only supporting "free competition" and "fair play" when it benefits them. With the rise of China it's inevitable that others will eye PRC and its people with suspicion, because it's our nature to assume others can be sterotyped and remain static. Once they leave the static position, they become an unknown and a potential threat.

If you're East Asian - ethnic Chinese, Korean, or any other, you'd be viewed with some degree of suspicion working in sensitive areas such as military R&D. Worse, you might be charged, or end up as the fall guy for something that you didn't do. Even if your'e cleared of all charges, many will still presume you to be guilty by racial/ethnic profiling.

If you don't want to take the risk, the solution is to simply take your time and talents to other industries/sectors and make your fortunes there.

chopsticks

11-11-2005, 06:14 AM

H5N1

11-11-2005, 07:40 AM

adeptitus wrote
Like others have already said, there's no doubt that there's spying between all major powers. If you catch a spy, you simply put him/her behind bars and move on. The situation today is far calmer than early cold war era, I doubt the US, Russia, or PRC has executed a single spy in the last decade

I agree all countries spy. The bigger they are, the more elaborate they are. There are not friends in this area, just interest.

Not long ago, the US took the Austrialia's collins class sub's screw back to US, without permission from Sweden. Lost the link though.

adeptitus

11-11-2005, 01:07 PM

but maybe the pay in Us is like 5 times more?
i guess they shouldn't have been greedy about the money huh... anyways europe is also a place to look for work... :)
i hope the racial tension isnt so high there... :(

There are plenty of industries in the US and other countries that are not related to the defense sector. The great thing about capitalist system is that you don't have to be a wage slave to the state or any private company, you can opt to work for yoruself and start your own business, or be a contractor/consultant and work whenever/wherever you want.

As for being greedy, there's nothing wrong with the desire for material wealth and comfort, but there are plenty of wrongs in the method (i.e. theft). Regardless of your ethnicity, if you've taken the vow of citizenship in a country, and then betray that vow by selling classified information to another, that makes you a traitor in any country. If all you wanted was the money, there are plenty of other (legal) ways to get it.

MIGleader

11-11-2005, 03:57 PM

but maybe the pay in Us is like 5 times more?

i guess they shouldn't have been greedy about the money huh... anyways europe is also a place to look for work... :)
i hope the racial tension isnt so high there... :(

so? everythings 10 times cheaper in china.
ive seen very few asians in the american defense forces/industry. ive seen some japanese, met one korean, but never seen a chinese. i guess its either the trust issue, or chinese people simply dont persue defense in america.

bd popeye

11-11-2005, 04:37 PM

Back to the main topic here..

The Mr. Chi Mak has appeared in Federal Court in Santa Ana CA but not charged with espionage. Santa Ana is just south of Los Angeles.

No espionage charges yet? Humm?:nana: :confused: Probaly not enough evidence. Or the US does not want to let the cat out of the bag???:confused: And you have to wonder why the others have not yet been charged???

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20051110-2024-ca-militarysecrets-china.html

Engineer accused of stealing Navy technology appears in court

ASSOCIATED PRESS

8:24 p.m. November 10, 2005

SANTA ANA â€“ A Chinese-American engineer appeared in federal court Thursday on charges of conspiring to steal sensitive information about U.S. Navy warships and smuggle it to China.
With his hands shackled, Chi Mak stood quietly in a Santa Ana federal court as a magistrate judge agreed to his request for a new defense lawyer.

Mak, a naturalized U.S. citizen from China, was arrested Oct. 28 on charges of stealing government property, aiding and abetting, transportation of stolen goods and conspiracy.

He was held without bond last week after authorities accused him of taking computer disks from Anaheim defense contractor Power Paragon, where he was lead engineer on a sensitive research project involving propulsion systems for Navy warships.

"From everything I've seen, he seems to be an upstanding citizen with no criminal history," said defense attorney Ronald Kaye after Thursday's brief hearing.

Also arrested in the case:

â€“ Mak's wife, Rebecca Laiwah Chiu, a naturalized citizen of Chinese descent who was held on $300,000 bond;

â€“ Mak's brother, Tai Wang Mak, a Chinese national and director for the Phoenix North American Chinese Channel, who was ordered held without bond; and

â€“ Tai Wang Mak's wife, Fuk Heung Li, a Chinese national also denied bond.

All four face charges of stealing government property, aiding and abetting, transportation of stolen goods and conspiracy. A grand jury has been convened and could return an indictment by Nov. 15.

Jeff Head

11-14-2005, 09:16 PM

No espionage charges yet? Humm?:nana: :confused: Probaly not enough evidence. Or the US does not want to let the cat out of the bag???:confused: And you have to wonder why the others have not yet been charged???

All four face charges of stealing government property, aiding and abetting, transportation of stolen goods and conspiracy. A grand jury has been convened and could return an indictment by Nov. 15.The outcome of the grand jury will be telling.

tphuang

11-14-2005, 10:17 PM

bd popeye

11-14-2005, 11:10 PM

seriously, sometimes, the American media makes it sound like there is no security around American military installations and countries like China has secret eyes all over the place. My friend works at Pratt & Whitney. The security is so tight there, that you can even work in the main area if you are not a Canadian or American citizen. In addition, the computers casings are specially designed, so that you can't even reboot your computer without calling the IT people. All this, to prevent theft of sensitive data. That's why I think all this espionage allegations are rubbish.

I agree with you about the security in the US..I have a friend that works for GE in Evendale OH engine plant. He says everything they do there is on camera. Everything. They have speical computers too like at Pratt and Whitney. As for bases in the US sure they have their slipups. But you don't want oo breech security on a base. No you don't. You won't like what happens to you.

AssassinsMace

11-15-2005, 12:05 AM

Jeff Head

11-15-2005, 08:01 PM

The FBI is controlled by politics. You have to question this latest espionage "coup" of theirs since other "coups' have been Wen Ho Lee and Katrina Leung. Both, separately were credited with giving all of China's tech advancements from the US and both cases thrown out of court.Well, I can't speak for all of the FBI, but I have know poersonally some of their personnel, both line/field personnel and folks in fairly high management. All of those I knew were professional and not politicised. They were interested in upholding the law.

As regards this particular issue...as I have said before, the grand jury will be the first focal point and I will wait to see what comes out of that. If indicted and sent to trial, then I will wait to see what the trial produces. Those will be the telling events in my opinion.

MIGleader

11-15-2005, 08:47 PM

AssassinsMace

11-16-2005, 01:31 AM

Well, I can't speak for all of the FBI, but I have know poersonally some of their personnel, both line/field personnel and folks in fairly high management. All of those I knew were professional and not politicised. They were interested in upholding the law.

As regards this particular issue...as I have said before, the grand jury will be the first focal point and I will wait to see what comes out of that. If indicted and sent to trial, then I will wait to see what the trial produces. Those will be the telling events in my opinion.

If you've followed the Katrina Leung case, this sounds very much like the same setup as that one. Keep in mind that I don't declare these people innocent or guilty. But for many Americans, for the FBI just to charge them, they're guilty... no question. Just as in the Wen Ho Lee case, an embarrassment for the US and the FBI, many Americans are in denial and believe he's guilty of espionage simply because he pleaded guilty on a minor charge that didn't involve espionage. That was a case of the FBI and many Americans trying to save face.

Jeff Head

11-16-2005, 08:27 AM

That was a case of the FBI and many Americans trying to save face.Him pleading guilty to a lesser charge had nothing to do with face saving by the FBI or the US...he did that.

As to these others, like I said, the grand jury and any potential trial will tell the tale, just like in that case. In the end, that process, although far from perfect, gives people in this country...or those visiting it...the best chance for justice they are apt to get. The fact that Lee was exonerated, when facing such serious charges, puntuates that point better than anything else I could say. In most places in this workd, that wouldnot have happened.

In addition, if any case of bungling or political motivation comes along that improperly jails or prosecutes someone, then as soon as that is discovered or found to be the case, the individual has the right to themselves press charges or sue for damages.

Again, my only point is that I am not going to rush to judgement either way and will let the process takes its course.

AssassinsMace

11-16-2005, 06:18 PM

Him pleading guilty to a lesser charge had nothing to do with face saving by the FBI or the US...he did that.

As to these others, like I said, the grand jury and any potential trial will tell the tale, just like in that case. In the end, that process, although far from perfect, gives people in this country...or those visiting it...the best chance for justice they are apt to get. The fact that Lee was exonerated, when facing such serious charges, puntuates that point better than anything else I could say. In most places in this workd, that wouldnot have happened.

In addition, if any case of bungling or political motivation comes along that improperly jails or prosecutes someone, then as soon as that is discovered or found to be the case, the individual has the right to themselves press charges or sue for damages.

Again, my only point is that I am not going to rush to judgement either way and will let the process takes its course.

And many of the scientists and engineers at Los Alamos said they were guilty of the same crime Lee plead guilty to. So it's nothing unique to Wen Ho Lee and the FBI and Los Alamos officials knew it. That's why the charge was a save-facing measure by the FBI. Even the judge, who was known as an arch conservative said it was an embarrassment to the country on how Lee was treated.

Being mistreated and threatened with the death penalty if he doesn't sign a confession so the government can show China spies while preaching and bombing other countries under the guise of human rights makes it far worse than normal. So there should be no pride in that. That's equivalent to seeing China bombing countries for human rights violations yet China does no such thing. The hypocrisy makes it far worse a violation.

As part of the deal for Lee's release he had to sign away his right to sue the government. The government knew it was going to lose big time in court if that didn't happen. That's why Lee is going after yellow journalists and now the media is hiding behind freedom of the press.

My point is that the government knows they only have to charge someone for the American public to believe in guilt. No innocent until proven guilty here and that why it's all political. For Wen Ho Lee, the government knew they didn't have a case yet paraded him on TV as if he were guilty and wanted him to sign a forced confession. If that happened in another country, it would be charged with violating human rights by the US. The US accuses China of falsely imprisoning people who later get released. The US doesn't right it off as if a crime didn't occur because they got released in the end.

AssassinsMace

11-16-2005, 07:58 PM

See the charges have already been reduced! You better believe a dismissal is not far behind.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Engineer Indicted As Chinese Agent
Case Didn't Meet Espionage Standard

By John Pomfret
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 16, 2005; Page A03

LOS ANGELES, Nov. 15 -- A federal grand jury indicted a military engineer, his wife and his brother Tuesday for failing to register as Chinese agents in a case that the FBI had said involved an attempt to smuggle "extremely sensitive" U.S. warship technology to China.

The indictment alleged that Chi Mak, 65, of Downey, a naturalized U.S. citizen; his brother, Tai Wang Mak, 56, a Chinese national, and Chi Mak's wife, Rebecca Laiwah Chiu, 62, are agents of the People's Republic of China. Failing to register as a foreign agent carries a maximum possible penalty of 10 years in federal prison.

The indictment on the relatively minor crime, and not on espionage charges, underscores a recent pattern of federal authorities having difficulty making spying charges stick in cases involving Chinese operations, former counterintelligence officers said.

In an affidavit released after the three were arrested on Oct. 28, FBI Agent James Gaylord provided details of an investigation that involved phone taps, electronic surveillance and rooting around in garbage cans. Gaylord alleged that Chi Mak, an engineer employed by Power Paragon, a subsidiary of L-3/SPD Technologies, had given his brother several computer discs that contained Navy weapons data, specifically information on Quiet Electric Drive (QED) systems used in Navy warships. Tai Wang Mak was planning on traveling to China to hand the discs over to another man, the affidavit said.

Gaylord described QED as "highly sensitive" and added that agents checking Chi Mak's trash came up with two apparent wish-lists, written in Chinese, for information about additional military hardware, among them space-based electromagnetic intercept systems, submarine torpedoes, aircraft carrier electronic systems and early warning technologies.

A spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office said the three are not being charged with espionage because so far an analysis of the information contained on the intercepted discs turned up no classified information.

In recent years, federal authorities have had difficulty prosecuting cases of alleged Chinese espionage. In the 2000 case against Wen Ho Lee, a scientist working at Los Alamos National Laboratory, the government was accused of racial profiling and dropped most of the charges against Lee, though he did plead guilty to one count of mishandling nuclear weapons data. And the 2003 case against Katrina Leung, a Chinese American businesswoman who because of her affairs with two FBI agents was known as a Chinese Mata Hari, was thrown out of court after a judge concluded prosecutors had illegally blocked a key witness from talking to her attorneys.

Former counterintelligence officials say part of the problem involves the fact that Chinese operatives collect information in the United States in a fundamentally different way than spies from, say, the Soviet Union did during its heyday.

Paul Moore, who was the FBI's chief analyst on China until he retired in 1998, described combating China's intelligence operations as similar to policing against shoplifting. It happens all the time, and each theft is not that significant -- but the losses build up.

"China has a planned economy but a market-driven intelligence program," he said. "We have just the opposite."

T. Van Magers, a former FBI agent and specialist in Chinese counterintelligence, said pursuing cases against Chinese espionage is difficult because it is often much harder to tell what the Chinese are after and who they are working for.

"We see Chinese intelligence operatives who are not involved with intelligence collection and intelligence collection by people not identified as intelligence officers," he said. "We see operations that look like intelligence operations that turn out to be a case of commercial espionage. And vice versa."

Chi Mak's lawyer, Ronald Kaye, said his client had no criminal history: "Everything in his character shows a law-abiding, honest guy."

Baibar of Jalat

11-29-2005, 09:13 PM

Ur right american bases ar heavily guarded, thats why china is targeting US and european tech companies that have lax security and universities. these targets ar easier to intell gather and they do advanced research that china needs. There is a proposal circulated in washington that all foreigners working in sensitive areas in Universities or just there to study have to get a visa similair to an weapon export license to work or study in these hi tech environments.

Its obvious whos it aimed at (chinese)
top MI5 director quote the "chinese have mixed loyalities".

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1130/p01s01-usfp.html

sorry cannot find new visa website still looking but this link highlights china intell gathering works

adeptitus

12-01-2005, 05:41 PM

Its obvious whos it aimed at (chinese)
top MI5 director quote the "chinese have mixed loyalities".
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1130/p01s01-usfp.html

Like it or not, common sense tells me that if the PRC intelligence wanted to recruit spies, they'd target ethnic Chinese living in the US, just as S. Korean intelligence would lean toward recruiting ethnic Koreans, and Israeli intelligence would lean toward recruiting religious Jews.

Currently the relations between US and PRC is somewhat strained, and if you're an ethnic Chinese living in the US, I'd suggest staying away from defense industry, nuclear weapon R&D (Los Alamos?), & import/export of sensitive items. You should take steps to reduce risk and protect yourself.

Some of you might think I'm over-reacting and point to the fact that recent spying cases were dismissed. But I'd point to the same cases as proof that some law enforcement employees would do racial profiling and make you a suspect without concrete proof of wrong doing. By the time that you're proven innocent you'd have already spent months, if not years in jail, your career and reputation ruined, and people pointing to you as a "suspect" for the rest of your life. It's just not worth it.

bd popeye

12-02-2005, 12:33 PM

Guys the charges have not been dropped. On Monday a Federal Judge denied bail for two of the suspected spies. Mr. Mak's wife, Rebbeca. is out on a $300,000 bond.

And if you live in the US you better believe that all law enforcement uses raical profiling as adeptitus says. It crosses all racial lines. It's a fact of life. I suggest his words be heeded.

Here's an article about the bond denial.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20051129-0001-ca-militarysecrets-china.html

Judge overrules bond for engineer accused of being China agent

By Gillian Flaccus
ASSOCIATED PRESS

12:01 a.m. November 29, 2005

SANTA ANA – Separate federal judges have denied bail to two brothers charged with being unregistered agents for China after lengthy hearings that failed to reveal much additional information about the depth of the government's case against them.
One hearing Monday included detailed testimony from an FBI special agent and an FBI Mandarin-language expert involved in the case against U.S. defense technology engineer Chi Mak, 65, and his younger brother, Tai Wang Mak.

Mak, his wife, Rebecca Laiwah Chiu, and his brother were indicted on a charge of being unregistered agents for China. All have pleaded not guilty; Chiu is free on $300,000 bond.

Investigators allege that Chi Mak took computer disks from Anaheim-based defense contractor Power Paragon, where he worked on a sensitive research project involving propulsion systems for Navy warships, and took steps to send the information to China.

Chi Mak, who is a U.S. citizen, allegedly passed the information to his brother, who then encrypted or helped encrypt the files and loaded them onto a computer disk, according to prosecutors.

Tai Mak and his wife, Fuk Heung Li, were arrested Oct. 28 at Los Angeles International Airport as they prepared to travel to Hong Kong and Guangzhou, China, allegedly with an encrypted disk.

U.S. District Judge Marc Goldman denied bail to Tai Mak on Monday after hearing from two FBI agents involved in building the case against the brothers.

FBI Special Agent James Gaylord, who prepared an affidavit submitted last month that alleged the defendants committed crimes ranging from stealing government property to conspiracy, said Chi Mak's home had been under surveillance since June 2004. Gaylord referenced several phone calls between Tai Mak, his son and his wife in which they allegedly discussed encrypting the files and made at least one reference to doing so on previous occasions.

He also mentioned a call Tai Mak made to a contact in China during which he said he worked for the "Red Flower of North America" – a possible reference to a spy organization, Gaylord said. Tai Mak has a green card allowing him to work in the United States.

Gaylord, a counterintelligence agent, has stated in court documents that Chi Mak admitted feeding information on Navy research to China since 1983.

Tai Mak's attorney also questioned Daniel Bolick, the FBI agent who first interviewed Tai Mak in Mandarin after his arrest at the airport. Bolick said that Tai Mak at first lied about having siblings, lied about the contents of the encrypted computer disk and was evasive when asked where he would be staying in China.

Tai Mak's attorney, John Early, has challenged those statements and suggested Monday that the FBI rushed to build its case when it learned Tai Mak and his wife were about to leave the country.

"Often when you're forced to act quickly, you act on incomplete information. ... The grandiose allegations suddenly seem smaller and smaller," Early said.

In an earlier hearing, U.S. District Judge Cormac J. Carney overturned an earlier ruling by another judge to grant release on bond to Chi Mak.

Carney said he recognized strong character evidence supporting the release of the engineer, but the nature of the charge and alleged activities made it impossible to grant bond. He scheduled another hearing in two weeks to revisit the issue.

Carney said defense arguments that prosecutors trumped up the case to raise alarm didn't convince him that Chi Mak wasn't a flight risk.

"You're talking about billions of dollars of technology that puts our country at serious risk. You are saying this is a big farce ... but this is a pretty darn serious charge," the judge said.

AssassinsMace

12-07-2005, 04:50 AM

bd popeye

12-07-2005, 02:35 PM

The charges aren't espionage which was being reported before. Pretty much the same routine Wen Ho Lee and Katrina Leung went through before they're were released. But I imagine the FBI has something up their sleeve to salvage them from embarrassment.

I agree. The FBI is always covering it's tracks. There probaly is not enough evidence to prove espionage. That neo-con newspaper the "Washington Times" made it seem like these people stole Aegis technology and were involved in some big spy ring.

If the charges that were pressed are true I think they were in this for some green American money. Nothing more.

sumdud

12-25-2005, 06:30 PM

Another one of these cases......
I'd agree with adepitius and popeye, avoid the "defense" industry.

Lee Wen Ho....since he's the first case I heard about when I became aware of the news, I am for some reason still skeptical of him, but James Yee? Man, come on, that's Bullcrab and %$#....&^%!!!

As for the sharing and stealing. I'll taking the stealing side. Sharing is America's duty, not China's. And if the agents were in fact stealing, then yes, they are guilty. But hell, they are at least stablizing the world.

But the guy works with naval propulsion........ No need to throw him in naval AD........ We are not idiots.......
If he did steal data though, it would not be AEGIS data......... It would be the propulsion and quieting of the new SSNs China is getting......

But
foreign agent
instead of espionage? Man, just be direct. You can go..............

renmin

12-25-2005, 08:04 PM

Technicaly, America has sent UAVs and spies to China many times. You know by all those Americans UAVs that were shot down over China. I know, my mother was one of the students who was chosen to investigate a shot down US UAV. Well, its never a private world. As they say, intelligance is the key to victory.

KlubMarcus

12-28-2005, 01:17 PM

Most of the stuff that China got from spying on the USA is probably old or inaccurate. If you found spies, you wouldn't arrest them. You'd feed them BS to send back to the design bureau.

patriot

01-04-2006, 07:29 PM

It's sad China didn't get the technology from those spies in which our navy really need. Those spies made the "China Threat" theory even bigger.

adeptitus

05-10-2006, 09:34 PM

Some of you may recall a case from last year where several people were accused of passing classified naval warship data to the RPC. Here's an update on the case:
=====================================

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/orange/la-me-chinese10may10,1,6938999.story?coll=la-editions-orange
From the Los Angeles Times
Chinese Nationals Face New Charges
By Sara Lin
Times Staff Writer

May 10, 2006

Prosecutors said Tuesday that they plan to file more serious charges against three people accused of failing to register as agents of the Chinese government.

Speaking through his spokesman, Assistant U.S. Atty. Gregory Staples said the government intends to seek a new federal indictment in a matter of weeks against Chi Mak, 66, of Downey, his wife, Rebecca Laiwah Chiu, 62, and his brother Tai Wang Mak of Alhambra. Staples would not say what the charges would be.

Prosecutors initially alleged that the three were passing military technology to China. Chi Mak is accused of taking information from an Anaheim military contractor, Power Paragon, where he worked and giving it to his brother for transmission to the Chinese government.

The three were arrested in October, but the data the defendants are accused of passing turned out not to be classified. In a subsequent indictment, prosecutors dropped those charges but accused the three of failing to register as foreign agents.

The military technology Chi Mak is accused of stealing included information on warships, a naval nuclear reactor and a submarine propulsion system, authorities said.

Chi Mak was Power Paragon's lead engineer on a contract to develop the submarine propulsion system. He and Chiu, originally from China, became naturalized citizens in 1985.

Federal agents arrested the defendants following a yearlong investigation using virtually every surveillance tool available to counterintelligence agents.

Federal agents arrested Tai Mak and his wife, Fuk Heung Li, as they were about to depart on a midnight flight from Los Angeles International Airport to China. In their luggage, authorities said they found an encrypted disk containing the military secrets and other research conducted by the Navy.

Li was charged in a separate criminal complaint for allegedly participating in a marriage fraud scheme to help foreign nationals gain citizenship.

Defense attorney John Early, who represents Tai Mak, wasn't surprised to hear prosecutors planned to file more charges.

"Nothing in life completely surprises me. The government will do what it has to do and the defense will respond," he said.

Chiu's attorney, Stanley Greenberg, echoed Early's sentiment.

"I'm confident that when the evidence all comes out it'll be shown Rebecca's is not guilty of this charge or a new one," he said.

Ronald Kaye, who represents Chi Mak, likewise maintained his client's innocence.

"Repeatedly we've demonstrated that actual evidence which the government characterizes as incriminating has turned out to not reveal whatsoever any link to any type of espionage activities," Kaye said.

The trial is scheduled to start Nov. 7.

I merged the post so members could catch up with this thread.

bd popeye moderator

bd popeye

05-10-2006, 11:59 PM

Oh boy..here we go. the neo-cons like Richard Fisher will have a grand time with this.

It's already been stated that they did not steal any classified info. But maybe the info they did have was to juicey to pass up...who knows..they could have been set up..The FBI is very sneaky...Hey adeptitus, next time you go to Long Beach to fish wave to this couple..I'm sure they are locked up on Terminal Island.

adeptitus

05-11-2006, 06:59 PM

I recall reading a few years back that a Russian scholar was arrested for leaking state secrets. His crime was collecting non-classified, public information, analyzing them, and publishing his findings. The Russian government considered his article to be "state secret" and had him arrested. To quote from the news article then, "it's ok to read it, but don't you dare analyze it!".

Back in 1990's, there was an Indian businessman who went to China to setup a research company. They gathered newspapers and magazines and compiled the information, then translated them from Chinese to Hindi and English. The Chinese employees refused, stating that doing so would make them agents of the Indian government and therefore they'd be engaging in esponiage, or "working for the enemy".

Fortunately in the US, we still have freedom of speech that protects the press. I think in this "spy ring" case, if the data was non-classified and the suspect published an article in a magazine, there was no way for the government to get him. But if he tried to pass the data to agents working for a foreign country, then that MAY make him guilty of acting on behalf of a foreign government.

The US "Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) states:

An agent of a Foreign principal is any individual or organization which acts at the order, request, or under the direction or control of a foreign principal, or whose activities are directed by a foreign principal who:

1. engages in political activities, or
2. acts in a public relations capacity for a foreign principal, or
3. solicits or dispenses any thing of value within the United States for a foreign principal, or
4. who represents the interests of a foreign principal before any agency or official of the U.S. government.

1. The Act requires every agent of a foreign principal to register with the Department of Justice and file forms outlining its agreements with, income from, and expenditures on behalf of the foreign principal. These forms are public records and must be supplemented every six months.

2. The Act also requires that informational materials be labeled with a conspicuous statement that the information is provided by the agents on behalf of the foreign principal. The agent must provide copies of such materials to the Attorney General.

3. Any agent testifying before a committee of Congress must furnish the committee with a copy of his most recent registration statement.

4. The agent must keep records of all his activities and permit the Attorney General to inspect them.

One must register within ten days of agreeing to become an agent and before performing any activities for the foreign principal. Failure to register, keep accounts, mark informational materials, provide a congressional committee with a copy of the agent's most recent registration, and agreeing to a contingent fee are crimes.

renmin

05-11-2006, 08:23 PM

Nowadays, Spying is something very difficult to accomplish especially in the United States. The US has great securty. And something as highly classified as this, it is even harder to obtain. Next, the entention today in China is to improve relations with the US. Spying is not improvment, Honestly I dont think the PRC will commit such a stupid act. This is just prpaganda attempting to subdue the minds of Americans. Well I can tell you its not working on me! This is total trash!

Obcession

05-11-2006, 09:09 PM

One has to wonder why their names are spelt in Wales Giles (as opposed to PinYin).

I'm implying that they did not actually come from mainland China.

I think that says something.

bd popeye

05-13-2006, 07:10 PM

One has to wonder why their names are spelt in Wales Giles (as opposed to PinYin).

I'm implying that they did not actually come from mainland China.

I think that says something.

They did not come from the PRC? So perhaps they came from the ROC and were recruited by the PRC? Or they are working for the ROC or some other nation. Could be..I just know neo-cons will have fun with this story exaggerating every bit of it...And neglecting certian facts.

bd popeye

03-23-2007, 01:37 PM

It appears that after 10 months this case is set to go to trail this comming Tuesday. There are some very serious charges against Mr. Chi Mak.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20070322-1417-ca-militarysecrets.html

Chinese-born engineer accused of stealing secrets awaits trial

By Gillian Flaccus
ASSOCIATED PRESS

2:17 p.m. March 22, 2007

SANTA ANA – As a top engineer at a major U.S. defense contractor, Chi Mak helped develop some of the most advanced and closely guarded naval technology in the world, including silent-running propulsion systems that can make submarines virtually undetectable.
Now, in a case that experts say could have serious implications for U.S. security, he is accused of stealing those secrets for the Chinese.

Prosecutors say the Chinese-born Mak was working for China from 1983 until his arrest two years ago, stealing hundreds of documents about a number of defense systems, including the weapons, nuclear reactors and propulsion systems aboard U.S. submarines.

The 66-year-old Mak is set to go on trial Tuesday on charges of conspiracy to export U.S. defense secrets to China, possession of property in aid of a foreign government and failure to register as a foreign agent. He could get more than 50 years in prison if convicted.

If the allegations are true, China may have gained critical information as it tries to develop an open-water fleet to challenge U.S. naval supremacy in Asia, said Richard Fisher, vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center, a nonpartisan think tank in Alexandria, Va.

“China's military capabilities would benefit tremendously from the kind of inside information that he's had access to,” Fisher said. “If the Chinese are on the inside track on this one, then we are truly in an arms race.”

The case is also troubling because the U.S. government might have to declassify evidence and present it to jurors to prove its case.

“This is the bad choice the government faces,” said Paul D. Moore, who served for more than 20 years as the FBI's chief China analyst. “There are a number of people running around the United States who have committed espionage and gotten away with it because the government couldn't afford to lose the information they needed to prove the case.”

In similar cases, prosecutors withhold evidence deemed too sensitive. Other times, they obtain special security clearances for the judge, jurors and defense attorneys to look at certain classified documents. But the bulk of the evidence must be aired in open court.

Prosecutors in the Mak case did not return calls for comment. Defense attorneys have undergone FBI background checks and received clearance to see certain government evidence.

Mak, a U.S. citizen since 1985, had secret clearance for a decade through his work with Power Paragon, an Anaheim-based subsidiary of the nation's sixth-largest defense company, L-3 Communications.

His attorney, Ronald Kaye, said the government has grossly exaggerated the evidence against his client. He said Mak would never do anything to hurt his adopted country.

“You have a highly regarded 66-year-old engineer who universally is seen as a great asset to our country. He's been a U.S. citizen for over 20 years. He's a homeowner,” Kaye said. “Every person you turn to says he's the most generous, committed engineer in the company.”

According to prosecutors, Mak took documents from Power Paragon, copied them to computer disks and encrypted them with the help of his brother, Tai Mak, and nephew, Billy Mak, before trying to pass them to a Chinese contact known as “Mr. Pu.”

Tai Mak and his wife, Fuk Heung Li, were arrested in 2005 at the Los Angeles airport as they were about to fly to China.

Hidden in their luggage were encrypted disks containing copies of documents on a submarine propulsion system, according to court papers.

The propulsion technology suppresses noise to make submarines virtually undetectable underwater and is “one of the biggest secrets that we have in developments in submarine technology and anti-submarine warfare,” Moore said.

Chi Mak was arrested several days later. During a search of his home, investigators found two torn-up notes asking him to get documents on a number of sensitive U.S. naval projects involving torpedoes, electromagnetic artillery, missile-detection and nuclear defense, according to court papers.

Investigators also seized documents on the DDX Destroyer, a next-generation, multi-mission warship as quiet as a submarine; electromagnetic launch systems for aircraft carriers; high-powered electromagnetic guns; and submarine-mounted kinetic energy projectiles, the court papers say.

The government also said it suspects Mak has been feeding information about Aegis-class battleships to China since the 1980s.

Investigators tapped the Maks' phones and installed video cameras in their homes. In one instance, Tai Mak allegedly called his Chinese contact and identified himself as being with the “Red Flower of North America,” which the FBI believes is code for a Chinese intelligence operation.

Li, Tai Mak, Billy Mak and Rebecca Laiwah Chiu, the wife of Chi Mak, have all pleaded not guilty to the same charges as Chi Mak and await trial

Kaye explained Chi Mak's behavior by saying, “My client is committed to discussing and learning about technology – that's all.”

panzerkom

03-23-2007, 02:38 PM

adeptitus

03-23-2007, 08:09 PM

Funny thing I noticed, almost every major espionage case since the 1990s that are supposedly perpetrated by the PRC can be traced back to someone from Taiwan, e.g. the Wen Ho Lee case, the donations to the Democratic Party, etc.

Hmmmm, I wonder.

During the cold war era, the PRC didn't have many immigrants to the US. Ethnic Chinese immigrants came mostly from Taiwan and some from Hong Kong. I attended HS in the US and back then, we had 30+ kids from Taiwan vs. 3 kids from PRC.

Those early immigrants from TW went on with their careers in the US, and some got jobs in the defense sector. For PRC agents, they'd prolly target this group to recruit. The FBI knows this and the rest is history. This is why I refuse to work in defense industry, because even if you didnt' do anything, you might end up as the fall guy.

The US justice system is good, but even if you're proven innocent, your career and reputation is destroyed and you're left with the only option of sueing everyone for millions of dollars, which I find quite distateful. Also, America is a free society, which makes spying and theft of intellectual property very easy. It's the price to pay for not having a police state.

Schumacher

03-23-2007, 11:22 PM

US is by far the most open nation when it comes to immigration compared to all other major powers, China, Russia, Japan, Europe.
And it has benefitted immensely from this critical flow of skills & talents both economically & militarily. U win some, u lose some in the form of having more foreign born persons in your research establishments therefore more susceptible to potential spying.
We'll have to wait & see if the latest spying charges hold water. The only bright spots from the 'scapegoating' of certain national groups is that it may just be enough to prompt some of them to think abt going back home where their skills are desperately needed.

SampanViking

03-24-2007, 06:23 AM

During the cold war era, the PRC didn't have many immigrants to the US. Ethnic Chinese immigrants came mostly from Taiwan and some from Hong Kong. I attended HS in the US and back then, we had 30+ kids from Taiwan vs. 3 kids from PRC.

Those early immigrants from TW went on with their careers in the US, and some got jobs in the defense sector. For PRC agents, they'd prolly target this group to recruit. The FBI knows this and the rest is history. This is why I refuse to work in defense industry, because even if you didnt' do anything, you might end up as the fall guy.

The US justice system is good, but even if you're proven innocent, your career and reputation is destroyed and you're left with the only option of sueing everyone for millions of dollars, which I find quite distateful. Also, America is a free society, which makes spying and theft of intellectual property very easy. It's the price to pay for not having a police state.

I guess you do not welcome to much specualtion about spying from Professional Taiwanese eh Adeptitus?;)

oringo

03-26-2007, 07:44 PM

What I don't understand is that if Mak were technologically savvy enough to encrypt the documents and burn them to CD's, isn't it easier for him to transmit these documents electronically through an encrypted channel? There are numerous ways to anonymously transmit encrypted information over the internet. I have a feeling that this case could end up like that of Dr. Wen Ho Li.

RedMercury

03-26-2007, 09:47 PM

Lol, nice avatar.

I like how everyone presumes he (they) are guilty. When it comes to Americans treating Chinese, double-standards are the norm. Even the title of this thread presumes they are guilty.

oringo

03-27-2007, 12:33 AM

Thanks, but I wasn't assuming Mak's guilty. Just read my post again, and I hope you'll see through stereotyping. On the other hand, I won't be surprised if there are Chinese spies inside America. It's a common practice of all countries. There are most likely American spies in China, too. I am just amused at the apparent stupidity of the accused. There are much better ways to spy and transmit information. That's all.

adeptitus

03-27-2007, 04:47 AM

I guess you do not welcome to much specualtion about spying from Professional Taiwanese eh Adeptitus?;)

Well, it's the truth. Intelligence agencies exist for a reason, and everyone spies -- on their own people as well as others.

Everyone is guilty of "guilt by association" no matter where you are. Doesn't matter if you're accused to being a spy in US, China, Russia, etc., the public opinion will most likely assume that you're guilty. This is one reasons why we use representative republic instead of a real democracy where you might end up taking a drink like Socrates.

At least in the US you have a better chance of getting a fair and public trial. You won't get that in a lot of other countries. hehehe.

UCSDAE

03-28-2007, 02:38 AM

I guess I should change my major huh :p
there is nothing wrong with counterintelligence operations, the only problem is the FBI do it without any tact, and often overzealous.
BTW, the Wen Ho Lee case seemed more like a SSB counterintelligence trap, and the FBI felt right in it.
These kinda bad press image do have repercussions. People like me is gonna have a hard time finding an internship if the neo-con press keeps this bullshit up.
NG and LM is already kinda taking racial profiling measure on recruiting already, kinda.

AssassinsMace

04-03-2007, 09:29 PM

I just saw on Lou Dobbs that the FBI has a taped denial from the main suspect the day he was arrested but doesn't have a recording of the confession to being a spy for China which the the FBI claims was made later. Hmmmmm!

Also Lou Dobbs says secrets were stolen of technology the US doesn't even have in development. :rofl: So I guess now anything China develops on its own can now be claimed as stolen US technology.

SinoForce

04-07-2007, 04:46 PM

China spying on the USA means that china will always be behind. You can't take the lead when you are copying the leader.

bd popeye

04-07-2007, 04:53 PM

Sinoforce, you need to expound more on your positions when you post. In other words try to post something to back up your position. Thank you.

Kilo636

04-08-2007, 11:05 AM

China spying on the USA means that china will always be behind. You can't take the lead when you are copying the leader.

Copy doesn't mean you are always behind. In fact,copy is a good way to close the gap with yr adversary so that you can start R&D yr next generatipon product and skip one... You are assumming Chinese will always copy? Japan also do that in the past but are they still copying or innovating now? China are following the path of Korean and Japanese. It just a matter of short time,Chinese new innovating product will arrive!

alwaysfresh

04-08-2007, 07:24 PM

China spying on the USA means that china will always be behind. You can't take the lead when you are copying the leader.

Spying/Copying, give me a break. Everyone in the world spies and copies others. That statement seems just to provoke a childish name calling unproductive tactic to try to dimin the actions of China. So you say "China spying on the USA means that china will always be behind", really? Well explain to me how to invent a car before inventing the wheel and I will agree with you.

"You can't take the lead when you are copying the leader." What does this mean?

In developing policies or technology, using the knowledge of others from the past to develop is essential (except when China does it you seem to want to label them). Please do not tell me next China is a dictatorship or non-capitalist society.

UCSDAE

04-12-2007, 10:27 PM

so apparently the US never did industrial espionage huh? well, you might want to look into how the US space program started with(a ex-Nazi engineer who worked on the V2). with engineering, it's never a bad idea to examine similar systems to get the good vs bad. there is no need to reinvent the wheel, but you can always optimize it.

sidewinder

04-14-2007, 05:58 AM

A Chinese-born engineer will go on trial in a California court March 27, charged with smuggling sensitive technology about U.S. Navy submarines to China.
Chi Mak, 66, an engineer working for a U.S. company with several Navy contracts, is accused of trying to export intelligence about silent submarines in October 2005 in a plot that involved four members of his family.
Mak, who is also charged with acting as an agent of China in the U.S. and making false statements, was arrested after agents swooped on two relatives at Los Angeles Airport as they prepared to board a flight to Hong Kong.
According to Justice Department documents, the duo were caught with a disk containing sensitive encrypted data on U.S. submarines hidden in an English-language CD course.
Mak’s trial opens in Santa Ana March 27 with jury selection, while his relatives, including a brother, are expected to stand trial in May.
Mak has not been formally charged with espionage because the information on the disk has not officially been deemed classified.
Instead prosecutors say the data relates to weapons-related technology that requires an appropriate export license, which Mak never sought.
Mak, a U.S. citizen who was born in Guangzhou, China, has denied the charges.
Defense lawyer Ronald Kaye has described his client as having an “unblemished” character.
Kaye has also said all the data referred to in the case was made available at a public conference, and so cannot be described as secret.
The investigation into Mak began in early 2004, when federal agents began audio and video surveillance of the engineer and his family.
Although the case is not an espionage trial, prosecution documents give an insight into a shadowy world of intrigue, revealing Chinese intelligence’s use of code names such as Red Flower, Winter Chrysanthemum and Autumn Orchid.
After raiding Mak’s home, prosecutors say they also discovered a “wish-list” of U.S. military technology, including information on missile defense and torpedo systems.
The trial comes amid increasing concern in the U.S. about the activities of Chinese intelligence agencies.
A senior official said in remarks published earlier this month that Chinese agents were the most active in the world and were aggressively pursuing advanced technology.
“The technology bleed to China, among others, is a very serious problem,” Joel Brenner, the new head of the Office of National Counterintelligence Executive, told The Washington Times.

Jeff Head

04-14-2007, 11:15 AM

UCSDAE

04-17-2007, 09:59 PM

just wondering, who publish the article? I smelled neo-con lean in the cannontation of the article. Neo-con establishments tend to have be biased.

szbd

04-18-2007, 01:52 AM

A Chinese-born engineer will go on trial in a California court March 27, charged with smuggling sensitive technology about After raiding Mak’s home, prosecutors say they also discovered a “wish-list” of U.S. military technology, including information on missile defense and torpedo systems.

It seems that PLAN does have a concern on ASW capability now.

Mike Powell

04-21-2007, 06:19 AM

China spying on the USA means that china will always be behind. You can't take the lead when you are copying the leader.

Ask the Soviet Union, they quite sometimes copy the U.S. and European technology and design.

bd popeye

05-11-2007, 04:45 PM

Mr Chi Mak has been found guilty "of conspiracy to smuggle sensitive technology".

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/defence/US_engineer_guilty_of_exporting_military_data_to_C hina30011814.php

US engineer guilty of exporting military data to China
Agence France-Presse | May 11, 2007

A Chinese-born US engineer was on Thursday found guilty of conspiracy to smuggle sensitive technology about US Navy submarines to China following a six-week trial in California.

Chi Mak, 66, who worked for a US company with several Navy contracts, was accused of trying to export intelligence about silent submarines in a plot that involved four members of his family.

Jurors at the US District Court in Santa Ana, 33 miles (53 kilometers) southeast of Los Angeles, began their deliberations on Monday.

Mak was convicted on two counts of attempting to send sensitive material to China, acting as a foreign agent without notifying the US government and making false statements to federal agents.

Mak faces up to 35 years in prison when he is sentenced on September 10. Prosecutor Greg Staples said under sentencing guidelines the amount would probably be less but said Mak could expect a "substantial" jail term.

Defense lawyer Ron Kaye said prosecutors had won the case on "fear."

"We feel the government's case emphasized fear and we also believe there was a lot of misrepresentation," Kaye said.

Mak was arrested in October 2005 after agents swooped on two relatives at Los Angeles Airport as they prepared to board a flight to Hong Kong.

Prosecutors said the duo were caught with a disk containing sensitive encrypted data on US submarines hidden in a English-language CD course.

Mak's relatives, including his wife, his brother, sister-in-law and their son are still facing charges.

Although prosecutors accused Mak of spying for China during closing arguments on Monday, the engineer was not formally charged with espionage because the information was not officially deemed classified.

However prosecutors said the data, which related to silent submarine technology known as the Quiet Electric Drive (QED), was extremely sensitive and was marked NOFORN, meaning it should be barred from view of foreign nationals.

Prosecutors said the data required an appropriate export license, which Mak never sought.

Mak, a naturalized US citizen who was born in Guangzhou, China, denied the charges.

An official from a parent of the company that Mak worked for, Power Paragon, testified Mak did not need a government license to export the document, which Mak had written and presented at a 2004 engineering conference.

However, prosecutors rejected that claim, arguing that the Defense Department had never approved the data's release.

"If this document is in the public domain, why not fax it, email it or send it by mail?" assistant US attorney Craig Missakian told jurors in closing.

The 18-month investigation into Mak began in early 2004, when federal agents began audio and video surveillance of the engineer and his family.

Although not an espionage trial, prosecutors painted a shadowy world of intrigue, revealing Chinese intelligence's use of code names such as Red Flower, Winter Chrysanthemum and Autumn Orchid.

After raiding Mak's home, prosecutors said they also discovered a "wish-list" of US military technology, including information on missile defense and torpedo systems.

The trial comes amid increasing concern in the United States about the activities of Chinese intelligence agencies.

A senior US official said in March that Chinese agents were the most active in the world and were aggressively pursuing advanced technology.

"The technology bleed to China, among others, is a very serious problem," Joel Brenner, the new head of the Office of National Counterintelligence Executive, told The Washington Times.

Jeff Head

05-16-2007, 06:29 PM

Mr Chi Mak has been found guilty "of conspiracy to smuggle sensitive technology".Based on the evidence I had heard about, and on details related to me by friends in the industry, I had little doubt that this individual was in fact trying to get the information (and other sensitive information) out of the country and to the Chinese.

Apparently, after a six week long trial, a jury of his peers agreed and he has been found guilty. At 66, pretty much any sentence over 10-15 years will be a life sentence. We shall see how he is sentenced, and what comes of the cases against others involved.

adeptitus

05-16-2007, 08:08 PM

There are many stories about "amateur" PRC espionage attempts, and I think this one is an example of someone who has never been trained trying to play James Bond. Why in the world would you want to hand-carry documents hidden in some fake language-learning CD? Was he hoping to trade it for cash?

There are many other ways to store/send documents. I think even a high school kid could've came up with better methods. >_<

szbd

05-16-2007, 10:29 PM

I heard some cases that something you can get very easily in US is infact prohibited from exporting to China. So, some people try to get money from these.

Undead Yogurt

02-11-2008, 03:58 PM

72-year old former Boeing engineer charged with passing along data pertaining to the Space Shuttle, C-17, and Delta IV, plus "instruction manuals" for the B-1. My favorite part is the charge of him being an "unregistered" foreign agent.

www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-biz-boeing-space-shuttle-ba-spy-0211feb11,0,1121192.story

chicagotribune.com
Boeing engineer charged with stealing Space Shuttle secrets for China
By James P. Miller

Tribune staff reporter

1:41 PM CST, February 11, 2008

The Justice Department said Monday that it has arrested a former Boeing Co. engineer on charges that he stole Boeing trade secrets related to several aerospace programs -- including the Space Shuttle -- on behalf of the Peoples Republic of China.

The department said the arrest of 72-year-old Dongfan "Greg" Chung, of Orange, Calif. follows his indictment on eight counts of economic espionage and acting as an unregistered foreign agent for China.

Chung is alleged to have taken and concealed Boeing trade secrets relating to the Space Shuttle, the C-17 military transport aircraft and the Delta IV rocket.

In a statement, the department said Chung, a native of China who is a naturalized U.S. citizen, held a "Secret" security clearance when he worked on the Space Shuttle program for Rockwell International and later, after Rockwell was acquired by Boeing in 1996, for Boeing.

The DOJ said that the indictment unsealed this morning shows that individuals in the Chinese aviation industry began sending Chung "tasking" letters as early as 1979.

Over following years, the department said, "the letters directed Chung to collect specific technological information, including data related to the Space Shuttle and various military and civilian aircraft. Chung allegedly responded in one letter indicating a desire to contribute to the 'motherland.'"

In letters to his Chinese "handlers," the department said, Chung made reference to engineering manuals he had collected and sent to the China, , including 24 manuals relating to the B-1 Bomber that Rockwell had prohibited from disclosure outside of the company.

The indictment says that between 1985 and 2003, Chung made multiple trips to the PRC to deliver lectures on technology involving the Space Shuttle and other programs, and alleges that during those trips he met with officials and agents of the Chinese government. Chung and Chinese officials, the government said, exchanged letters that discussed cover stories for Chung's travel to China and recommended methods for passing information.

Chung retired in 2002, the Justice Department said, but next year returned to Boeing as a contractor, and held that position until September of 2006.

The indictment alleges that Chung "took and concealed" Boeing trade secrets relating to the Space Shuttle, the C-17 military transport aircraft and the Delta IV rocket.

Boeing declined to comment.

"We don't comment on ongoing government criminal investigations," a spokesman for Boeing reached by telephone told Dow Jones. He added that Boeing "is not a target of this investigation and we've been cooperating with the government."

The government said the investigation into Chung is related to an earlier investigation of Chi Mak and several of his family members, who were convicted last year of providing defense articles to China.

Each charge of economic espionage carries a maximum possible penalty of 15 years in prison and a $500,000 fine. The charges of acting as an agent of a foreign government and obstruction of justice each carry a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment and a $250,000 fine. The conspiracy charges each carry a maximum prison sentence of five years and a $250,000 fine.

Chung's arrest was part of a broader Justice Department move against alleged spies for China.

Seprately, the department said it had arrested a Defense Department employee and two Chinese-born individuals on charges of passing classified U.S. documents.

In federal court today, U.S. authorities charged 51-year-old Gregg William Bergersen, of Alexandria Virginia, with conspiring to disclose national defense information. Bergeron is a weapons systems policy analyst at the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which is an agency inside the Department of Defense.

Also charged in federal court in Alexandria were Tai Shen Kuo, 58, and Yu Xin Kang, 33, both of New Orleans.

The government alleges that Kuo, a naturalized U.S. citizen and a "New Orleans businessman," befriended Bergersen and obtained from his sensitive U.S. government information. "Much of the information pertained to U.S. military sales to Taiwan," a nation which has long had a tense and sometimes acrimonious relationship with the People's Republic of China.

Kang, the Justice Department alleges, is a Chinese citizen but a permanent resident of the U.S. who "served as a conduit" for the information Kuo collected.

The allegedly criminal conduct covered a two-year period from January 2006 until this month, the government said.

Dow Jones Newswires contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2008, Chicago Tribune

crobato

02-18-2008, 03:02 AM

KEEP THIS THREAD NONPOLITICAL. ONLY POST NEWS ARTICLES.

Even Spies Embrace China's Free Market
U.S. Says Some Tech Thieves Are Entrepreneurs, Not Government Agents

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. -- Engineers Lan Lee and Yuefei Ge had drafted a business plan that they promised would roil the U.S. microchip industry. Using blueprints they allegedly stole from their Silicon Valley employer, the men proposed to reproduce a super-fast chip in China at a much lower cost.

The documents, recovered by FBI agents, included a contract with a venture-capital firm in Beijing that would bankroll part of the estimated $3.6 million the would-be entrepreneurs needed and seek additional funding from the Chinese government.

The case of Lee and Ge, who pleaded not guilty in October to charges of theft of trade secrets and the more serious charge of economic espionage to benefit a foreign government, is one of more than a dozen involving the alleged sale or attempted sale of purloined technology to China that are making their way through U.S. courts this year.

Stolen from laptop computers and luggage of engineers working for U.S. companies en route to China are designs for some of the country's most sophisticated technology -- flight-simulation programs, microwave devices, electronic propulsion systems for submarines and night-vision equipment.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/14/AR2008021403550.html

bd popeye

03-25-2008, 02:52 PM

It has taken a long time but...Some very tough sentencing has been handed down in this case of Mr. Chi Mak possibly as a warning to other "Spies" or folks intrested in selling US technology to other nations.

He's probaly seen his last days as a free man.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7311816.stm

US court jails 'agent of China'

Mak had said he did not realise making copies was illegal
A Chinese-born engineer found guilty last year of conspiring to export sensitive US defence technology to China has been jailed for 24.5 years.
The court in California had also convicted Chi Mak, 67, of acting as a foreign agent and of making false statements to federal agents.

Mak had worked on submarine propulsion systems for defence contractor Power Paragon in Anaheim.

The FBI found defence CDs in luggage of Mak's relatives at Los Angeles airport.

Prosecutors had alleged that Mak gave thousands of documents to his brother, who handed them to Chinese authorities.

Four of Chi Mak's relatives pleaded guilty to related offences last year.

Hong Kong flight

Mak, a naturalised US citizen, said during last year's six-week trial that he copied sensitive documents from Power Paragon and kept copies in his office.

A high-end... sentence will provide a strong deterrent to the PRC (China) not to send its agents here to steal American military secrets

Judge Cormac Carney

He said he had not realised at the time that making copies was illegal.

He was arrested in October 2005 in Los Angeles after FBI agents stopped his brother and sister-in-law as they boarded a flight to Hong Kong.

Investigators said they found three encrypted CDs in their luggage that contained documents including one on a propulsion system that could make submarines virtually undetectable.

Mak had pleaded not guilty to all charges. He was not formally charged with espionage as the information was not officially deemed to be classified.

US District Judge Cormac Carney also fined him $50,000 (£25,000).

"We will never know the full extent of the damage that Mr Mak has done to our national security," he wrote in a sentencing statement.

"A high-end... sentence will provide a strong deterrent to the PRC [People's Republic of China] not to send its agents here to steal American military secrets," the judge added.