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bd popeye
09-26-2005, 03:24 PM
Oh I think so. It has been converted from a Trident SSBN to a cruise missile packin SSGN. It can carry 154 missiles + speical detatchments of Navy SEALS. As far as I can research the USN is converting only 4 of these subs. Check it out!! I edited the text. It was way to long. Use the posted link to read the entire text.

http://www.ohio.navy.mil/html/conversion.htm

USS Ohio SSGN 726

Trident SSGN

The basic idea behind Trident SSGN is that nuclear deterrence will require fewer ballistic missile submarines in the post Cold War period than the l8 Tridents presently in service, but that boats rendered redundant by nuclear force reductions are uniquely well-suited for conversion to conventional land attack missions. These missions have been growing in importance in Navy and Marine Corps planning since the early 1990s, but as the fate of the arsenal ship demonstrates, acquiring the platforms and technology to execute them effectively is no easy feat. Much of the current force structure was designed for blue water operations that some observers believe have diminished relevance in the post Cold War world, but it is not feasible to rapidly replace that force structure with new vessels oriented to littoral warfare. Aside from the fact that nuclear deterrence, sea control and other traditional missions remain important, the resources to quickly design and build several new classes of littoral warships simply are not available. Even if they were, the desirability of building new vessels specialized in a particular type of naval warfare rather than having broad, multi-mission utility would be debatable.

Trident SSGN resolves these dilemmas by providing a near term solution to littoral warfighting requirements that is low cost, sur-vivable and highly versatile. In its baseline concept, the SSGN would replace nuclear missiles in 22 of the Tridents 24 tubes with Vertical Launch System (VLS) canisters that hold six conventional land attack missiles per tube. A single Ohio class boat would carry 132 such missiles, a mix of Tomahawk cruise missiles and the naval variant of the Army Tactical Missile system known as NTACMS. The Tomahawk would provide precision strike against interior land targets, while the NTACMS short range ballistic would provide rapid response against targets closer to the coast, including such time urgent targets as Scud bases. With a full complement of 132 missiles, a single Trident SSGN provides a covert and powerful force to serve as the forward echelon of a Joint Task force, suppressing defenses and anti-access forces. In addition, the SSGN also serves to make more missiles cells in the surface battle force available for anti-air and TMD missions.

But it also could serve as tar more than a summered version of the ill-fated arsenal ship. In the baseline concept, two of the Trident SSGN tubes would be modified to function as lockin-lockout chambers for special operations personnel. The large interior volume of Ohio class boats could accommodate 66 such personnel for extended periods, and over 100 for briefer spans. In addition, the Trident would retain its existing anti-ship and undersea warfare capabilities, plus its extensive capacity for reconnaissance, surveillance and intelligence gathering. The Trident SSGN would thus be transformed into a multi-role warship with numerous littoral applications, and at the same time could serve as a tested for innovative submarine modular payload concepts, ideas that have been inhibited by the traditional 21 inch torpedo tube.

There are many operational advantages in such a concept. First of all, Trident SSGN would be highly survivable; able to non-provocatively operate near potential littoral adversaries in advance of hostilities without fear of being preemptively attacked. Second, Trident SSGN could operate autonomously throughout all phases of a conflict, collecting intelligence useful in impending operations, preparing the battlespace for the arrival of surface and/or airborne assets, and delivering the first highly precise response to aggression.

Third, Trident SSGN also would operate seamlessly as part of a larger Joint Task Force, integrating its capabilities with those of surface, air and land assets to create a multi-dimensional approach to littoral warfare. Fourth, it could operate without requiring local air or sea control, and would require little or no protection from other friendly forces because of its combination of stealth and self-defense capabilities. Finally, it would require little logistical support during forward deployments and littoral operations due to its relatively low manning requirements and the remarkable endurance afforded by nuclear propulsion.

These operational virtues are complemented by Trident SSGN's low cost. New ship construction would not be needed because the vessels would be drawn from the four SSBNs designated for removal from strategic service by the Nuclear Posture Review. Following refueling and relatively inexpensive modification, the four converted boats would be available for 20 years of service. In fact, with dual crews similar to the SSBN operating regimen, two of the four boats could be on station near littoral trouble spots over 80 percent of the time. The cost of new support infrastructure would be minimal, because the present concept is to operate the SSGNS from the existing Trident bases, with two deploying from Bangor, Washington to the pacific and Indian Ocean areas, and two from Kings Bay, Georgia to the Atlantic and Mediterranean.

Aside from its fiscal and operational advantages, the Trident SSGN would have considerable growth potential. At additional cost, tubes could be further modified to carry 12 missiles each rather than the presently planned six. New variants of Tomahawk and NTACMS can be introduced for attacks against buried command centers and other special categories of targets. Unmanned aerial or underwater vehicles can be employed to enhance situational awareness and targeting capability. Even the number of boats could be increased beyond four if future strategic arms control agreements further reduce the requirement for strategic forces. As the National Defense Panel apparently recognized, Trident SSGN is not only a concept with tremendous near term operational and fiscal appeal1 but it has potentially even greater advantages in the medium to long term.

With the kinds of asymmetric strategies capable adversaries might adopt. It described a series of technological, organizational and tactical steps broadly compatible with the so-called Revolution in Military Affairs to remake American forces. The Panel described the key characteristics of future US forces as including mobility, stealth, speed, range, precision, automation and a minimal logistics footprint. In addition, it placed great emphasis on network-based force structures exploiting digital technologies to both conduct information warfare and protect their own information systems.

Within this intellectual framework, the Trident SSGN stands out as an especially effective platform-a harbinger of what future naval warfighting platforms will need to look like. First of all, it has the stealth feature necessary to survive in the fast-paced, extremely violent environment of future littoral warfare.

Second, it has the speed, mobility and range of modern nuclear powered submarines.

Third, it has almost no logistics footprint at all once on station in an operational mode.

Fourth, its Tomahawk and NTACMS missiles would provide extremely precise targeting options against a wide variety of assets at considerable ranges-a feature likely to be bolstered with the introduction of advanced missile and targeting technologies.

Fifth, the Trident SSGN will operate autonomously rather than being dependent on vulnerable forward bases or surface assets. Sixth, the Trident SSGN will be networked with other naval and joint warfighting elements to be part of a truly network-centric force structure while being largely impervious to attacks against its onboard information systems

Finally, a combination of stealth, intelligence gathering and special operations capability will enable Trident SSGN to conduct its own unique forms of information warfare.

When all of these features are considered, it is clear that no other system likely to enter the near term inventory of any US military service so completely matches the performance criteria of the National Defense Panel as the Trident SSGN. While no one system can provide all the capabilities required by the NDP's transformation strategy, Trident SSGN incorporates a remarkable wide range of the features assigned highest priority in the Panel report. Thus it is no surprise that a body that had little to say about the vast majority of current Navy and Marine Corps systems nonetheless focused on the Trident conversion as an important step toward more capable military forces.

Conclusion

Perhaps the most striking aspect of the Trident SSGN proposal is that it provides a platform thoroughly consistent with the requirements of the Revolution in Military Affairs not by mounting a leap-ahead development program, but through the inexpensive modification of a proven legacy system. The NDP report underscores this fact and also points to the broader relevance of submarine stealth, range, endurance and precision in the radically transformed warfighting environment of the future. As an initial, low cost step in dealing effectively with the challenging demands of that environment, Trident SSGN deserves the support of the Navy and the nation




bd popeye
09-26-2005, 03:36 PM
USS Ohio SSGN 726

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/ssgn-002.jpg

sumdud
10-14-2005, 12:47 AM
I have a question, popeye, for ASDS sub, is that sub "disposable"? Or does a driver deliver the seals further inland , drop off, and return?
Is it carried externally or internally?

Slick thing, China should get one. =-)

Jeff Head
10-14-2005, 01:29 AM
I have a question, popeye, for ASDS sub, is that sub "disposable"? Or does a driver deliver the seals further inland , drop off, and return?
Is it carried externally or internally?

Slick thing, China should get one. =-)

It is not disposable. It is a fully self-contained mini-sub, manned by two Navy personnel and carrying a SEAL team. It can range fifty miles or so one way...100+ miles round trip. It is carried on the outside of the larger sub, where it docks for an all dry entry.

Sea Dog
10-15-2005, 07:07 PM
Slick thing, China should get one. =-)

Hey sumdud. I believe China has some type of a mini-sub already fielded. I don't have a link, but the PLAN has expressed interest for Spec-ops deployments. Kinda like the USN does. Does anybody else here know what I';m referreing to here. Because I forgot where I saw the link.:confused:

bd popeye
12-22-2005, 03:16 PM
I'm trying to revive this thread because the USS Ohio SSGN 726 has completed it's sea trials with flying colors. Soon she will be ready to deploy packing 154 cruise missiles and Navy SEALS....

As for the Chinese mini-sub I saw the same thing but can't find a link. Maybe someone will post it.

I would really like to know what the pro-China members of this forum think of this fully operational SSGN without getting into the old.."we gotta a missile that can sink it" discussion. Thanks!

Did you guys know that these SSGN's will deploy alone? I wonder if the SSGN's are considered "special forces"?

I found this article on the navy.mil web site.

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=21499

SSGNs Take Significant Step Towards Rejoining the Fleet
Story Number: NNS051222-11
Release Date: 12/22/2005 11:25:00 AM

From Team Submarine Public Affairs

BREMERTON, Wash. (NNS) -- USS Ohio (SSGN 726), the Navy’s first modern guided-missile submarine, took a significant step towards rejoining the fleet Dec. 19, when it arrived at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Bremerton, Wash., with a broom atop its sail to signify its clean sweep of the ship’s initial sea trials.

Ohio's Commanding Officer, Cmdr. Michael Cockey, expressed satisfaction with the ship’s performance and noted its great potential.

“It’s great to be completing an arduous overhaul and conversion period and moving on to demonstrating the tremendous capability this ship brings to the fleet. The Ohio crew will be pioneers in tactics and employment of this amazing class of ships.”

“SSGNs will provide us with one of the most capable and versatile strike options in the Navy,” said Rear. Adm. William Hilarides, program executive officer for submarines. “We are eager to have Ohio and her sister ships rejoin the fleet.”

Ohio is the first of four fleet ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) to be converted into SSGNs. Prior to the conversion process, each boat unloaded its complement of Trident Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles. Twenty-two of the 24 missile tubes on each boat are being retrofitted to carry up to seven Tomahawk cruise missiles, for a maximum load out of 154 missiles per boat. The remaining two tubes are being converted into Lock-in/Lock-out chambers for use by Special Operations Forces (SOF).

Each SSGN will be able to carry and support up to 66 Special Operation Forces for an extended period of time. These ships will have a specialized planning area, physical fitness equipment, and laser shooting ranges for use by the Operators. Further, SSGNs will be able to carry two Advanced SEAL (Sea, Air, Land) Delivery Systems, two Dry deck Shelters, or one of each using the lock-in/lock-out chambers as their docking sites.

“The ability to carry a large Special Operations Force, coupled with its Tomahawk strike capability and inherent stealth characteristics make SSGN a unique and powerful platform for combatant commanders to carry out a variety of missions,” said Capt. David Norris, SSGN program manager (PMS 398).

In addition to the strike capabilities of SSGNs, the submarines will also have improved Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance equipment, enhancing their ability to carry out clandestine operations.

Due to its size and layout, SSGNs offer expanded living and training space for embarked SOF. This space includes increased bunk capacity, as well as improved training and physical conditioning areas that allow the SOF operators to maintain their high operating capacity.

Another advantage of SSGNs’ size will be its ability to carry an increased payload. In the future, this capacity will allow for the launch and recovery of unmanned undersea vehicles (UUVs). As new capabilities and equipment are developed, they can be inserted relatively easily into SSGNs thanks to its Open Architecture computing systems and the related ability to rapidly integrate new technologies and payloads. SSGN can also offer significant opportunities to serve as a test platform to develop future weapons, sensors and operational concepts.

“The added payload capacity of the SSGNs gives us mission flexibility and future capability options unlike anything we have ever had,” added Norris.

The SSGN conversion program is the first truly transformational program in the Navy. President George W. Bush made reference to it in his May 2001 commencement address to the U.S. Naval Academy, and since then, the program will go from the first boat entering the shipyard to the last boat being delivered back to the fleet in less than five years. SSGN embodies a new level of adaptable warfare that is suited for today’s security environment.

The three other submarines undergoing the SSGN conversion process - USS Michigan (SSGN 727), Florida (SSGN 728), and Georgia (SSGN 729) - are all slated to rejoin the fleet by 2007.

For related news, visit the Commander, Submarine Force U.S. Atlantic Fleet Navy NewsStand

Totoro
12-22-2005, 04:45 PM
What do we think of it? Well, good for the US, ~150 tomahawks more available for first strike, not bad. Doesn't really make that much a change, really. If there weren't a sub launching those 150 or so tomahawks, there'd be a surface ship doing it. And both would the launch far enough from china that neither would really get threatened. So i don't see a big difference, really. China won't be going after those subs anyway, there'd be much more important targets to go after in a potential war.

utelore
12-22-2005, 05:42 PM
In the event of war with the PRC I could see the U.S pulling back carrier groups and major surface combatants away from the threat of PRC warplanes and JUST use cruise missile laden subs to sink the PRC navy within a few days thus taking away the PRC threat to take the ROC.

Totoro
12-22-2005, 05:54 PM
USN already tried using tomahawks as anti ship weapons. They gave abysmal results. (Maybe in part cause tercom guidance is virtually useless when at open sea?) So they ultimately abandoned the idea and pulled those versions of tomahawk out of service. You can't attack a ship at sea a thousand miles away without constant target location corrections. A ship would need to spend at least half a day at the same location in a harbour in order for it to be located, identified, attacked and so on. Recon is a must. No one fights a war from a distance without being sure just what they're launching their attacks against.

darth sidious
12-22-2005, 05:55 PM
Sorry but I dont see how tomahawks can be used to attack surface war ships base and habour maybe but not the chinese fleet when its at sea

Sea Dog
12-22-2005, 06:50 PM
Sorry but I dont see how tomahawks can be used to attack surface war ships base and habour maybe but not the chinese fleet when its at sea

No, Tomahawks are not anti-ship weapons any longer. It's true that these TASM's did not give USN the results that they were looking for as Totoro said. Not because of any internal guidance issues. But because the range aspects in conjunction with high density environments made using long-range missiles riskier(to unintended targets) and less accurate. But that doesn't mean the bunkered TASM's still in existence wouldn't still be useful if needed. But still they were removed. USN naval doctrine has thus shifted accordingly. There is currently talk of putting an anti-ship variant out there based on the newer Tomahawks, but so far those are just ideas being discussed. It would be rather easy to do this though.

But as darth said, in the near term, these Tomahawks are only land-attack missiles.

@bdpopeye - Thanks for posting. Any info I can get on the SSGN's the USN is fielding is of great interest.

Edited to Add:

http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1428355.php

Another interesting link.

utelore
12-22-2005, 09:16 PM
The latest version of the 32 year old Tactical Tomahawk is the Tomahawk Block IV cruise missile, currently in full rate production at Raytheon. Like its predecessors, the missile is equipped with a conventional warhead and offers flexible targeting and loitering capabilities. The new missile is supported by an improved mission planning and platform weapons control capabilities. Deployed with surface ships and submarines, TLAM is equipped with a two-way satellite data link that enables the missile to respond to changing battlefield conditions. The strike controller can "flex" the missile in flight to alternate targets preprogrammed before launch, or redirect it to a new target. ****This targeting flexibility includes the capability to loiter over the battlefield, awaiting a more critical target. The missile can also transmit battle damage indication imagery and missile health and status messages via the satellite data link.***

I think that if a conflict with the PRC started the U.S would use these as a true longrange standoff weapon to be used against PRC warships. If you think about the power of being able to sit off hundreds of miles away with subs launching these with no way for the PRC to effect or defend against such issues. compounded by having attack subs launching harpoons at 60+ mile ranges in the straits of taiwan. It would be a threat that I do not see the PRC having a answer for.

Totoro
12-23-2005, 07:11 AM
http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROmorrow07.htm

very interesting article coming from US naval institute. It is a bit old but it does give information about US tomahawk supply and production of block 3 (or lack of it, to be more precise) just after the war in iraq ended its first phase.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/micro_stories.pl?ACCT=910473&TICK=RTNB12&STORY=/www/story/08-18-2004/0002234457&EDATE=Aug+18,+2004

then there's this article, from sept 2004, which talks about block 4 tomahawk. What i find interesting is this line: "The Navy and Raytheon are entering into a five-year procurement contract to replenish Tomahawk inventory at the most affordable cost." which to me means they will not build more than needed to get back to 2800-3000 level they had before war in afghanistan. most afforadble cost also points to that, that they dont wanna spend too much and buy too many missiles. And in the end, they will need 5 years to produce all those missiles.

Now, i know the production in a case of war can be ramped up, sure. But just by how much? if you can produce 600 missiles a year, how long would you need to set up another production line for 1200 missiles a year? How much time for 1800? etc.

A relatively small scale war against weak and technologically obsolete enemy like serbia required 800 launched tomahawks. China not only has more modern systems, but it has tons more than tiny serbia, plus chinese forces are so huge youd need literally tens of thousands of tomahawks to do to china what US did to serbia in 1999. All that reaffirms my belief that tomahawks are not any kind of magic bullet weapon, especially against large and powerful countires like china that can take a lot of punishment and still keep on coming. They have their uses, yes, and they could somewhat hinder chinese capabilities but by themselves they've got very limited usefulness. They're just a small wheel in a big mechanism of warfare US would need to use to battle a country such as china.

utelore
12-23-2005, 09:14 AM
You are not going to need tens of thousands of cruise missiles to prevent a PRC invasion of Taiwan. You are just going to need to degrade its amph warfare and surface fleet. Its airforce would be degraded enough over time by cruise missile strikes against airbases that it would prevent effective airops over the straits. you cannot compare Kosvo which had a land contact with serbia proper and was many years ago/tech has advanced greatly/GPS/CONTUPGRADE. If 70+ PRC warships are a the bottom of the sea or burning in port this is a mute point. I am fully confident that a pull back and engage with sub-suface combatants stratagey could prevent a PRC invasion of the ROC

Totoro
12-23-2005, 12:10 PM
If chinese ships would behave nicely and sit peacfully in harbours, then yes, a massive tomahawk strike could wipe out a good deal of PLAN's inventory. But thinking bout it realistically, that will never be the case. Or are you suggesting that US would strike first, before china even makes a move and tries to invade taiwan? I don't believe that'd happen. So, what i'm talking about is a scenario where china is already on the move. Where a good deal of ships are out in the sea, where good deal of airplanes are in the air, etc. China can do training runs, not make anything out of those wargames for 100 times, then 101st time attack for real. War in kosovo wasn't many years ago, it was just 6 years ago. And block 3 tomahawks were used, just like in iraq two years ago. Yes, in this potential new war, block 4s would be used, but the difference between those two is slim compared to difference between serbian air denfenses and EW systems and those of china's. Actually, let's be concrete, and talk about two scenarios, one - worst case for US, where china attacks now when USN has under a thousand tomahawks, mostly block 3s, the same kind used in serbia - and scenario two, happening around 2010 - where US has replenished its inventory and has around 3000 mostly block 4 tomahawks. By then chinese forces will be stronger and more modern, too.

As for chinese air force, you can only slow down its progress in a taiwan invasion scenario by hitting the airbases with tomahawks. Without real air power, US can not prevent the invasion with tomahawks alone.

You did mention sub surface combatants... i assume you mean subs other than tomahawk carrying ones, too. Yes, that'd help greatly but it wouldn't guarantee anything and it'd come at great cost. Without air support and so close to china, those subs would be dead the moment they're detected. And they would be detected, simply because of the relatively small area around taiwan and large force china has at its disposal. In the open sea us nuclear subs would have a great edge over chinese SSKs but close to shore, in the shallows, where SSKs would be protecting and not attacking - that edge would all but disappear.

So, to sum it up, yes, US is perfectly capable of ruining any potential china's plans to occupy taiwan but it'd need a full war machine to do it. Just subs and especially just cruise missiles wouldn't cut it, in my opinion.

bd popeye
12-23-2005, 12:43 PM
Thank you gentlemen for the intelligent rational discussion on this subject. Outstanding!:)

No, Tomahawks are not anti-ship weapons any longer. It's true that these TASM's did not give USN the results that they were looking for as Totoro said

True. I wonder if the SSGN's can be outfited with Harpoons block II? I'm pretty sure it can. I have no confirmation.

For attacking naval targets I know the US is depending on JDAM's which are in plentiful supply. And they are cheap compared to any missile. I saw a program on TV two days ago on this weapons system. Actually it's just a kit that turns a gravity bomb into a presiscion guided weapon.

http://www.strikenet.js.mil/201/jdam/jdam-index.asp

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/jdam.htm

utelore
12-23-2005, 01:40 PM
Totoro, I just we can agree to disagree. I firmly believe that about 50% power of the U.S sub fleet and the ROC airforce and navy would defeat any PRC attempt to retake the Island. I dont think the PRC navy can defeat the U.S subsurface warfare as it realy is a outstanding and LETHAL force....cheers ute.

crazyinsane105
12-23-2005, 04:05 PM
I do agree with utelore. The USN's subsurface fleet is quite deadly and I doubt China will be able to properly defend itself from it. However, that is only if a significant number of US subs are present when a conflict in the Taiwan strait breaks out. Right now, how many US subs patrolling near the South China Sea? Does anybody know? Also, in my opinion, this arsenal sub is only for three countries: Iran, China, and North Korea.

Totoro
12-23-2005, 04:15 PM
Totoro, I just we can agree to disagree. I firmly believe that about 50% power of the U.S sub fleet and the ROC airforce and navy would defeat any PRC attempt to retake the Island. I dont think the PRC navy can defeat the U.S subsurface warfare as it realy is a outstanding and LETHAL force....cheers ute.

I don't think it's realistic to expect 50% (or even 10% for that matter) of US sub fleet to be in the area when china executes its first strike. By the time US is able to bring significant sub force (50% you speak of) to the war theater china would already take out most of taiwan's air force and navy. (yes, that's just my opinion and, yes, it requires a whole new topic) Yes, with heavy losses on chinese side, but they know time is of the essence, such losses would, in the long run, be cheaper since it'd mean china fights first taiwan then US than the scenario where US is given enough time to fight while taiwan still has some credible defences. But okay, we agree to disagree. cheers.

Sea Dog
12-23-2005, 07:11 PM
If chinese ships would behave nicely and sit peacfully in harbours, then yes, a massive tomahawk strike could wipe out a good deal of PLAN's inventory. But thinking bout it realistically, that will never be the case. Or are you suggesting that US would strike first, before china even makes a move and tries to invade taiwan? I don't believe that'd happen. So, what i'm talking about is a scenario where china is already on the move. Where a good deal of ships are out in the sea, where good deal of airplanes are in the air, etc. China can do training runs, not make anything out of those wargames for 100 times, then 101st time attack for real. War in kosovo wasn't many years ago, it was just 6 years ago. And block 3 tomahawks were used, just like in iraq two years ago. Yes, in this potential new war, block 4s would be used, but the difference between those two is slim compared to difference between serbian air denfenses and EW systems and those of china's. Actually, let's be concrete, and talk about two scenarios, one - worst case for US, where china attacks now when USN has under a thousand tomahawks, mostly block 3s, the same kind used in serbia - and scenario two, happening around 2010 - where US has replenished its inventory and has around 3000 mostly block 4 tomahawks. By then chinese forces will be stronger and more modern, too.

As for chinese air force, you can only slow down its progress in a taiwan invasion scenario by hitting the airbases with tomahawks. Without real air power, US can not prevent the invasion with tomahawks alone.

You did mention sub surface combatants... i assume you mean subs other than tomahawk carrying ones, too. Yes, that'd help greatly but it wouldn't guarantee anything and it'd come at great cost. Without air support and so close to china, those subs would be dead the moment they're detected. And they would be detected, simply because of the relatively small area around taiwan and large force china has at its disposal. In the open sea us nuclear subs would have a great edge over chinese SSKs but close to shore, in the shallows, where SSKs would be protecting and not attacking - that edge would all but disappear.

So, to sum it up, yes, US is perfectly capable of ruining any potential china's plans to occupy taiwan but it'd need a full war machine to do it. Just subs and especially just cruise missiles wouldn't cut it, in my opinion.

Hi guys. I think I'll stay out of the warfare aspects on this one for now. But I do know that the USN inventory for TLAM's right now is at 2,200 block II and III combined. I was hoping the article posted was going to tell us how many of each. The USN also has approximately 900 bunkered/stored TLAM-N's and TASM's, both of which are out of service but which can be upgraded to Block II or III standards pretty rapidly. I don't know how long it would take but I think probably no more than 30 days. Starting Quarter 1 2006, the USN will begin bringing in Block IV Tomahawks (2,500 - 3,300) over a 5 year time-frame. That's a whole lot of Tomahawks. The real issue is whether or not they will remove the Block II's from service, and how many of the previous blocks that would be.

I do agree with both Utelore and Totoro both on these issues. Both make good points. I agree with Totoro that TLAM cannot be used as an end-all weapon system. It was never intended to be that. The USN uses these as pinpoint strike weapons, for uses against myriads of targets. Some of these include Command Centers, armories, training facilities, weapons factories, fueling depots, SAM sites, C & C bunkers, high-value command, high-value asset, power-plants, etc. I've looked at the Maps of Chinese naval and coastal facilities, including regional airbases. Doing the math, you can see that it wouldn't take more than 400-500 of these weapons to do alot of damage. Add to the mix other layers and methods of attack and you have a whole lot more of the damage. Bottom line, TLAM strikes would not be used alone. They are always intended to be used with other methods of attack, supplemented by surveillance and electronic warfare evolutions. The strength in TLAM lies in quick targeting, quick launch, fast response, range, mass attack, and in the case of Block IV...retargeting, surveillance, and electronic attack.

darth sidious
12-23-2005, 07:46 PM
expect missile strike on japan and Guam if the americans decide to launch a huge cruise missile attack on china and the plan

yes the us fleet is deadly but I wont count on the taiwanese fleet if I were you they are truely pathetic

old ships with ok weapons or mordern ships with old ones

Sea Dog
12-23-2005, 07:56 PM
expect missile strike on japan and Guam if the americans decide to launch a huge cruise missile attack on china and the plan


Oh no. Not this crap again.:rofl: :roll:

On a serious note, the only way the USA would launch strikes against China is if China launched a strike first against America or her allies. Nuff said. ;)

darth sidious
12-23-2005, 07:59 PM
if the amereicans intrevin in the taiwan war and decide to use tomahaks for strike aginst plan bases the I dont see a reason why the chinese cnat attack american bease in return

Sea Dog
12-23-2005, 09:08 PM
if the amereicans intrevin in the taiwan war and decide to use tomahaks for strike aginst plan bases the I dont see a reason why the chinese cnat attack american bease in return

Not a good idea to do this, if you ask me. I see no reason to pursue this type of "back-and-forth" on this topic. But I will say, this goes to show that an unprovoked attack on Taiwan might not be a good idea.

MIGleader
12-23-2005, 09:13 PM
yeah guys, lets just cut the who attacked who crap. its going to heat up, and throw us off topic.

arsenal ship? seems like a good way to pack tomahawks in an easily deployable location. america can really place tomahawks in taiwan, nor can it snd a few dozen burkes to routinely patrol in the strait. so a submarine with tomahawks waiting in the pacific would be the perffect solution.

Totoro
12-24-2005, 05:06 AM
The real issue is whether or not they will remove the Block II's from service, and how many of the previous blocks that would be.


Since block III's have an 8 year lifespan after which they have to go through overhaul and replacement of certain key parts (no reason to believe block IIs have a longer lifespan) i doubt US intends to spend money on keeping block IIIs operational after their life expectancy has ended. What is gonna happen is what happened in first gulf war, older cruise missiles would be first to be used in any potential future war ( attack on iran, for example) while there's still some guarantee that they'll work.

Your figure of 2200 tomahawks, however, doesn't really match the numbers mentioned in USN institute article. And since block 3 production has ended years ago and block 4 has started up just recently - numbers should be pretty finite. Since 1998 1400 tomahawks have been spent. Actually before war in iraq started, after afghanistan, US has something like 2000 tomahawks left. spending at least 725 by april 2003 (figure of 800 that i've seen thrown around as final iraq war figure seems reasonable then) it'd mean us today has at its disposal something like 1200 tomahawks. Perhaps the 2200 figure you mentioned is refering to total number of all versions, even the old, bunkered antiship versions?

And yes, i agree tomahawks can be pretty useful, but only when they're a part of bigger and more complete attacking force. What's the point if you use a tomahawk to destroay a radar station if you dont follow up with an air strike w jdams or whatever to destroy the planes on the ground or whatever else? If you stop with just that first tomahawk, the radar station will be replaced/repaired eventually.