The Korean war

[Liberator]

Talk about the Korean war here.

Ok here are some pictures.

http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/nktank.jpg
North Korean tank on the move.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyphotos/l/blkorea.htm
Map of the Korean war.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arhistory/nlkorea50.htm

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyphotos/l/blkorea.htm

[Red Guard]

this is no korean tanks, it seems like M47, with the...machine gun on it. NK uses T-34/85....

[sino52C]

That is definitely a M2 50 cal, to me those tanks look like M24 Chaffees or M47, might be too small to be the former.

[Liberator]

In the Korean war.

Chariman Mao's ONLY son that is healthy had joined the PVA as a ordinary soldier unnoticed as the Chairman's son. Mao Anying (Mao Ze Dong's son) Was killed in the Korean war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war#China

[taijisheng]

[QUOTE=Liberator]In the Korean war.

Chariman Mao's ONLY son that is healthy had joined the PVA as a ordinary soldier unnoticed as the Chairman's son. Mao Anying (Mao Ze Dong's son) Was killed in the Korean war. :( Sad ain't it? QUOTE]

NO, with all respect to Mao and his brave son, it was really a good thing that mao anying got killed in korea, or china would still be like North Korea today.

[Liberator]

NO, with all respect to Mao and his brave son, it was really a good thing that mao anying got killed in korea, or china would still be like North Korea today.

Mao Anying is Chairman Mao's only HEALTHY son.

[PiSigma]

unlike north korea, mao never had the intention of passing his position to his son.

[chinawhite]

My thoughs on the korean war

The korean war was fought because of American imperialism. With the un-expected communist victory on the mainland chinese. this led the americans to a policy of containment to the mainland. the korean war was only a consequence to this.

From the mommet Mao declared the PRC to the 1971 table tennis Diplomacy. the US tried to stop chinese influence in every corner of asia.


The chinese might have suffered large casulties but still stopped american from having a puppet state next to chinas industrial heartland.

This war also increased unity and patriotism on the chinese mainland which allowed Mao to continue with his communist policies


@PiSigma

actually that is not known.

What some thinks with a dead son and someone that thinks with a alive son cant be safely concluded.

Kim-Il-Sung led the struggle againest japan for a good portion of his life he was a decent man. But when the soviet union collasped and his government became isolated he might have been desperate for a sucessor because he couldn't trust anyone else to keep his good name(like what Khrushchev did to stalin)

Anyway there is a old chinese saying.

The first generation builds the wealth, the second generation expands the wealth and the third squanders it.

If you dont get the meaning it means nothing is forever.


End Note

China had to pay dearly for her involment in the korean war but it finished the war with a more confident population and a better equipped airforce.

China also learnt a lesson on the type of people the soviets were. making china pay for a war which the soviet union had as much interest to attack american forces as china did.

If china didn't nter the war then the USSR would have

Regards,

Chinawhite

[Lavi]

It was definetly NOT the US who started the war, it was North Korea that invaded the South, the US intervened on large scale after a UN resolution had been passed.

The Chinese intervention certainly stopped the UN-forces from winning the war and uniting Korea under a democratic regime, and when comparing the postions of North and South Korea today one can ask wheter this benefitted the North Koreans.

[taijisheng]

unlike north korea, mao never had the intention of passing his position to his son.

You don't know that. Despite all the revolutionary talks, it is common knowlege that Mao saw himself as a chinese emperor, if you read his poems it's so obvious, he compared himself with all the famous emperors in the past, including Gehgis Kahn, and find that he is better than all of them. He did everything he could to stay in power, killed everyone who could threat him.

It is only logical that he would pass his power to his son. Sending his son to korea war was a move to build up his son's reputation, Mao Anying was placed in the army headquarter of the chief commander general Peng De Huai, he was never near a real battle. He was only unlucky that one day when Peng left, american planes bombed the headquarter and killed him. General Peng was one of the best generals of PLA, but Mao punished him for the death of Anying, Peng died a miserable death.

[FreeAsia2000]

It was definetly NOT the US who started the war, it was North Korea that invaded the South, the US intervened on large scale after a UN resolution had been passed.

The Chinese intervention certainly stopped the UN-forces from winning the war and uniting Korea under a democratic regime, and when comparing the postions of North and South Korea today one can ask wheter this benefitted the North Koreans.

Errm I think the majority of Koreans want to unite the country now...it seems that the US dosn't want peace because it wants to maintain it's bases.

As for 'democratic' regime...well elections in south korea are as free and fair as those in america...except there's no black people to incarcerate...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_South_Korea#1948_presidential_electio n

[bd popeye]

As for 'democratic' regime...well elections in south korea are as free and fair as those in america...except there's no black people to incarcerate...

I don't know anything about voting in Korea. But I do about the US.

I'm black. I've voted in every election since 1972 when I was 18 and no one has thrown me in jail.

When I vote I have never been corecred to favor any candidate over another by anyone.

While voting rights violation occuried in the past in the USA..early 60's and back. They do not exist today. I know of no one of any race in the USA that was ever in the last 30+ years thrown into jail for trying to vote.

FreeAsia2000 your anti-US bias is getting tiresome.

[walter]

Errm I think the majority of Koreans want to unite the country now...it seems that the US dosn't want peace because it wants to maintain it's bases.

As for 'democratic' regime...well elections in south korea are as free and fair as those in america...except there's no black people to incarcerate...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_South_Korea#1948_presidential_electio n

sure, blame the US. Did the US protest when Germany united?--NO. They even helped finance the process and they still have bases there. The difference between east and west Germany in 1990 and south and north Korean today is HUGE! Germany was ready for and wanted reunification. Is the same possible in the Koreas today?--I doubt it. Sure, they want reunification, but how on earth is that possible as long as Kim is in power?

[FreeAsia2000]

I don't know anything about voting in Korea. But I do about the US.

I'm black. I've voted in every election since 1972 when I was 18 and no one has thrown me in jail.
.

I was referring to how the US 'justice' is more likely to incarcerate and subject black people to harsher punishment.

http://www.prisoners.com/census2k.html

Sorry if my attempt to restore the voice of afro-american and asian people's history is causing havoc with your sense of the perfect view of the land of the free and the home of the brave...i suggest you go and have a chat with colin "the lowest point" powell... :) http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/19/powell.un/

anyway since we are getting :off

actually my point walter was that you should let the two parties sort out their differences. if the US withdrew South Korea would probably seek nukes for it's defense...there would be a stalemate for a while...then the north koreans would open up to south korean investment without losing face...he north koreans could provide cheap labour for south korean industry..eventually there would be peace.

the one obstacle to peace at the moment is the US presence

[walter]

actually my point walter was that you should let the two parties sort out their differences. if the US withdrew South Korea would probably seek nukes for it's defense...there would be a stalemate for a while...then the north koreans would open up to south korean investment without losing face...he north koreans could provide cheap labour for south korean industry..eventually there would be peace.

the one obstacle to peace at the moment is the US presence

hmmm, admittedly, I never thought about it that way. I guess the first step would be to convince the South Koreans everything would be OK if they let the US get out--I don't think they want the US to leave. I see it this way: 1) Yes the US wants to maintain a presense in SK as a part of retaining influence in the region AND 2) The SK's, while there is much public anti-American sentiment, still want US military presence in their country because they are AFRAID of the nutcase neighbor of their's controlling the North.

To me it seems like Kim is the main obstacle to any hope of reunification. I can't see reunification happening until a more mature leader comes to power in NK.

[pathfinder]

The Chinese intervention certainly stopped the UN-forces from winning the war and uniting Korea under a democratic regime, and when comparing the postions of North and South Korea today one can ask wheter this benefitted the North Koreans.
South Korean democratic regime in 1950's, now that's a good one. It was about as democratic as North Korea is today or South Vietnamese government in the 60's. The perfect example of democracy at work.

[Liberator]

Didn't South Korea started the war?

On the old forum, I remember some one posted "My friend's grandfather was a South Korean soldier at that time, his squad was ordered to raid North Korean border towns to make the NK to attack SK".

USA wanted the Chinese to get involved, because MacAurther want to end China's communist rule.

[Lavi]

North Korea launched the inital attack and nearly sweeped the UN coalition into the sea, then a general offensive almost cauptered all of North Korea, then China intervened, drew the UN back to the 38th parallel, and then the fighting stabilised there. If South Korea would have started the war, would they seriously have been so unprepeared as they were when the North launched their offensive?

Wheter or not the South was democratic in 1950 I don't know, but the goal of the UN was certainly to make Korea democratic, which is what I said in the first place.

[PiSigma]

SOUTH KOREA did start the war with some nudging from USA. the idea was that USA thought USSR or china won't interfer, so order SK troops to have skirmishes on the NK border to harass them. get NK pissed, and they'll invade. that way when the americans come in and kick NK out of SK, they can keep on going and unify the country under a pro-US government. remember that USSr was boycotting UN at the time. this is what my friend's grandpa told me.

now about unification. unification is not possible as long as the crazy guy kim is in power, if they have a more rational leader, then it's more considerable. and can't compare N-S korea with E-W germany. E germany had a more capable industry base. while north korea have almost nothing right now. SOUTH korea didn't become a true democracy until the 1980s, back in the day it's a military dictatorship. and up until the late 1970s, north korea was richer and had higher standard of living than south korea.

[ahho]

SOUTH KOREA did start the war with some nudging from USA. the idea was that USA thought USSR or china won't interfer, so order SK troops to have skirmishes on the NK border to harass them. get NK pissed, and they'll invade. that way when the americans come in and kick NK out of SK, they can keep on going and unify the country under a pro-US government. remember that USSr was boycotting UN at the time. this is what my friend's grandpa told me.

now about unification. unification is not possible as long as the crazy guy kim is in power, if they have a more rational leader, then it's more considerable. and can't compare N-S korea with E-W germany. E germany had a more capable industry base. while north korea have almost nothing right now. SOUTH korea didn't become a true democracy until the 1980s, back in the day it's a military dictatorship. and up until the late 1970s, north korea was richer and had higher standard of living than south korea.

hope that north korea would make some economic changes so that it could benefit themself

[adeptitus]

Didn't South Korea started the war?
On the old forum, I remember some one posted "My friend's grandfather was a South Korean soldier at that time, his squad was ordered to raid North Korean border towns to make the NK to attack SK".


From Russian archives, they claim that SK sent their troops to harass the NK forces along the border in light skirmishes. There were no serious attempt of invasion.

At the opening of the Korean war, the South Korea army was 65,000 strong on paper only. Some sources claim that they only had 38,000 men in the army, with 1/3rd (~12,000) on active duty near the DMZ and the rest on leave/rotation. The army was poorly equipped with a mix of US and Japanese equipment. Artillery regments only had 20-25% of the number of guns that they required, and the army was lacking in tanks.

IMO unless if the South Korean leadership was being lied to, they know perfectly well that the SK military was in no condition to invadion NK.

[PiSigma]

it was never SK's job to invade, only to harass with skirmishes. that means with small numbers of men and raiding border villages. after a period of time, the NK will of course get very annoyed and want to remove this for good. and NK at the time also knows SK is not as well armed as them, therefore logical choice and "unify" under their rule. of course the US also counted on this so that Sk would look like the victim of communist agression, and can immidiately send troops in to crush NK.

[The_Zergling]

Does anybody other than the North Korean citizens brainwashed by the regime actually think that the South Koreans want to unite with them?

Just take a look at the North's economy. Do you really think that the South Koreans would gladly embrace their impoverished and openly hostile enemies for the last few decades or so that easily?

The South Koreans are doing fairly well in terms of economic prosperity. Whenever you see a Korean movie released 9 times out of 10 it will be from the South. If the North didn't have any aid from the rest of the world it would collapse. I don't think the South Koreans would be eager to unite with the North if it only would weaken itself as a whole and cause a whole string of new economic problems.

Unless they have some very high morals and don't want to see all those people starving anymore, the South won't want to unite. I have yet to see this kind of moral fiber in this kind of world.

[chinawhite]

Actually....

If the two koreas actually reunite then the south will benifit in the long run. The north has always been the industrial heartland of korea and the south the agricultural side. The north koreas will also benifit from the other paying jobs and the south will benifit from cheaper labour. North koreans also have a very high education percentage. The North will also attract large amounts of tourism eager to see the pristine enviroment


South korea imports around 90% of its Raw material and oil etc. If the south gets a hold of north koreas well developed minning and raw material sector then it would rely less on other sources and become more competive in the world market.

You might try show the german example of re-unification but its not actually similar. Germany is the opposite of korea. the west had the industries(rhine, franksfurt) and the east agriculture.

West germany ave the east germans a big lump sum of cash after re-unification. this money didn't go to improvetheir lives but was wasted on consumer goods.

Not the mention a huge increase in cross border trade with china and a smaller extent russia. South korea now has to use large ships from pusan to go to beijing. This time could be cut using railways to ship good.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the economic side of this is done the polictial and emotional side.


During the korean war many families were spilt apart because of the war and haven't had contact with each other in narly six decades. I think they deserve to see each other again.

A united korea is a more powerful korea.(if could even be used as a buffer to japan). I think communism is dead. The north is now the weaker side of and needs to understand that they are the smaller brother.

End Note

Most koreans want re-unification because of the sentimental value of it. This does not include the added bonus of cheaper labour and a hard working worforce.

Regards,

Chinawhite

[walter]

Chinawhite,

you make some good points. I also think that in the long run both Koreas will benefit, but after a few boughts of serious food shortages (millions malnurished), being cut off from the rest of the world, and being subject to the whims of their dictator, it is easy to see the main beneficiaries would be the North Koreans.

Also, I would have to say at this point south korea has by far surpassed north korea in industrialization, not to mention most industry in the north is not up to modern standards. in any reunification scenario, the north would require huge amounts of investment just to try to get the standard of living on parity with the south, which would undoubtedly be a high priority. So over time, the benefit of cheap labor in the north will slowly fade, but initially, coupled with the North's resources like you said, this could benefit south korea, too.

I have to admit though, I am not sure i have any idea of what the north has to offer the south as far as products and services are concerned. The only thing that comes to mind are raw materials and cheap labor. The first would undoubtedly strengthen Korea's economy, but think about the consequenses of the second. Millions of North Koreans will stream into the south looking for a better life. It will be a huge strain on resources to find places to live for them, and if they are all willing to work for cheap, then it is not hard to imagine that they could actually steal jobs from the south koreans who are accustomed to high wages and benefits. This is all speculative, of course, and a reunification would simply be the right thing to do, but there will undoubtedly be hardships associated with it.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

By a porportion of population, more Americans died than Chinese.

110,000 Chinese out of 450,000,000 died.
54,000 Americans out of 150,000,000 died.

[chinawhite]

walter,

Interesting view and you make good points made. The actual reason that some North koreans are malnurished is because of their one million man army and the people that support this army. This drains food resources and man-power from farms and agriculture. When re-unifrication begins this army will be scaled down(since the need of invasoin is now unnecessary) This will actually cause a grain surplus, and in the coming years a even bigger one.

Its true that in all areas the south has surpassed the north but the north has large steel mills(not very modern) and a good transportation system. They require massie investment to bring them up to scratch. But this is not going to be provided by te government alone.

South Korean compaines at this point invest many bilions of dollars in chinas economy and others around the world. This investment can be shifted to the north which has all the quailties the chinese workers have(and know how to live it tough). But it woun't be south korean alone japanese chinese taiwanese compaines will also invest in this new market place. So the problem of investment shouldn't be a big problem.

Now about living standards. When East and West germany re-unified. the West german government just gave large lump sum payments to east german families so their living standard could increase. Many people started living on welfare checks and this was funded by West german taxpayers.

Now i am going to sterotype asians for a sec. Asians dont stay at home collecting welfare, they have a drive to increase their goods(so they can brag about it). North koreans i presume are the average sterotype asains and when they are offered a job that pays 10times more than what they are getting, they are going to work hard. maybe in a decade north korean workers would get about 3/4 the average south korean gets.


Now about employment.

South korea doesn't have enough people for all the jobs they have, they hire a lot of foriegn workers into the country. The north koreans wont be replacing south korean jobs but the forigen workers which enter south korea. Not all north koreans would be rushing south to El de rado.

They would be busy in the construction buinesses and the jobs they already have, They won't be out of work..

Regards,

Chinawhite

[The_Zergling]

Sorry for pushing up an old topic (Well, actually only 3 days old) but I felt that I wanted to add some realistic views on the Korean unification...

As I had posted earlier, I don't know if all South Koreans are really eager to reunite with the North in a rapid fashion. Looking at history, they can see what kind of problems it could trigger just by taking a look at Germany. The discrepancies between the two Koreas in nearly every category (economy, society, political system) is certainly wider than the two Germanies at that time.

What makes things even worse is that Kim's regime is probably determined to hang on to power. A unification scenario would make overhauling the regime very likely, so instead of unification of would be the South absorbing the North (Like in Germany). This scenario is probably not that desirable from the perspective of North Korea's regime at this time.

Im my opinion, North Korean security policy is pretty much regime survival. One crucial factor is that the most powerful state in this mess (USA) doesn't grant it full sovereignty and the rhetoric used by that asshole Bush has definitely added fuel to the fire.

After the shift in the balance of power in the beginning of the 90s (Soviet Union declined in status in the region) North Korea found itself without the support that it used to have, making the isolated form of society increasingly difficult to maintain, especially when faced with severe humanitarian crisis. (famine in 1995 e.g.) and one mean to extort some form of recognition, ANY form of recognition by the international community and much needed aid was the threat of a nuclear arsenal, which Pyongnang decided to employ.

Even though regime collapse seemed to be what many are hoping for, it is unlikely to happen in a short amount of time. Or, to put it differently; all the outside powers involved (South Korea, USA, China, Japan) should employ a strategy which solidifies the status quo and prevents any drastic alteration, because any event which is perceived by Pyongnang as regime threatening could lead to military escalation. Even though the US and China are not directly pitted against each other in a fashion like the Taiwan strait, military intervention in Korea could lead US troops pretty close to the border of China, something Beijing wouldn't be amused about.

Some time ago (Last December I think) there were secret talks between North Korea and the US. Even though North Korea broke off the 6 party talks about its possible/probable nukes, possibilities for negotiations are still there and kept alive. It seems that the US is/was willing to conduct talks with Pyongnang, even hinting at the possibility of offering some form of normalization of diplomatic relations, emphasizing that the US doesn't want to take any military action against North Korea. Bush may have ruined it all with his "Axis of Evil" insanity, but I believe hope is still there.

My view is that there many problems to consider in unification, not just "US is stopping Korea from uniting" and that they have to be solved before anything else can be done.

I just hope to god that the US and China won't get in a spat over Korea or Taiwan... of course the big losers in those scenario would be the innocent people that happen to live in those areas... like my family... -_-

[Ender Wiggin]

Don't the SK have a "Unification Ministry"?

watch out for one liner...

[PiSigma]

SK does have a unification minister, but he is not very powerful. afterall, both sides have to decide on the matter. and not everyone in Sk supports unification.

Also, ender wiggins, please read the rules to the forum before posting, we are going to be following the rules religously here, since we want to remove certain problems we had on the forum before. and Oneliners are a big problem we want to get rid of.

[chinawhite]

The_Zergling,

Your whole post was based on the fact that Kim Jong II was still the leader while my post was based on the fact that he was gone. You see the difference.

I was addressing the possibility of a re-unifrication not on when or how it was going to happen.


Anyway here is the mid of the person running the very stable country.

n secret talks, unstable North Korean tyrant Kim Jong Il has offered to shut down his nuclear arms program and allow U.N. weapons inspections unlimited access to his country -- if he's given a sneak preview of Star Wars: Episode III.

U.S. negotiators were flabbergasted when the flamboyant, wildhaired strongman said he would give up his nukes in exchange for a chance to see the upcoming installment of the popular sci-fi saga, not due to hit theaters until May 25, 2005.

"When Kim told us his primary demand was 'I must have Star Wars,' we first thought he was referring to the Strategic Defense Initiative -- that he was saying he'd surrender his nukes if his country would be protected by the space-based missile defense shield America is developing," says a Bush administration source involved in the high-stakes bargaining sessions.

http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61030

Regards,

Chinawhite

[adeptitus]

Anyway here is the mid of the person running the very stable country.
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61030
Regards,
Chinawhite

-_-;; I hope nobody takes anything from World Weekly News seriously. It's a supermarket tabloid, they make up stuff like this:
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/sex/61281
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/chamber/61623

[chinawhite]

I do doubt the creditbility of this article but i checked it out and it was on CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/02/ltm.03.html

But to tell you the truth i can see it happening

[taijisheng]

I do doubt the creditbility of this article but i checked it out and it was on CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/02/ltm.03.html



This shows how fake CNN can be. If Kim wanted to watch latest Star Wars before offcial relase all he needed to do is ask someone to cross the border to china and buy an illegal copy from a street seller.

[Ender Wiggin]

Actually Kim is well known in his love for cinema, he kidnapped a South Korean film maker once just so that the film maker could teach him how to make movies. Kim has also directed many of his won movies, writen many musicals and has a collection of THOUSANDS of movies.

[T-U-P]

alright guys, as said in the martial law, there would be no political discussions. this thread was originally about chinese participation in the korean war(at least it's suppose to be since it's in the chinese military history forum) and it's now shifting towards the political side. so stop the political discussions NOW! and get back to the chinese history.

[Ender Wiggin]

What amazes me about the Korean war is how stupid American intelligence was and still can be, 500,000 PLA troops over the border into North Korea utilizing forest fires to mask their movements, completely out of the Art of War imho and came within a stones throw of driving the US and UN forces into the sea.

Unfortunatly, once suporior firepower and positioning could come into position it was impossible even with numbers for the PLA to dislodge the US forces.

Had the battlefield conditions better suited the more mobile war the PLA was used to fighting it would have been a different ending.

[PanAsian]

Let me just say I am just a history buff with no military experience but as far as I understand:
North Korea started the Korean War on its own with the Soviets unwilling to help and the Chinese ambivalent.
The North Koreans had poor logistics and failed to make the final push to take all of Korea and in the meantime the US had passed a resolution in a Soviet-less UN (as someone mentioned before the Soviets were foolishly boycotting) to interfere.
Mainly US forces, in the name of the UN, counter-attacked and in a fateful US decision, pushed into North Korea.
Once that was done and before the US/UN forces squeezed the North Koreans against the Chinese border, China had decided it cannot let Korea fall into hostile hands (this is well-illustrated by history) and intervened.
Among other diplomatically disastrous actions and suggestions MacArthur wanted to make the same mistake twice by attacking China, going so far as going nuclear. Truman, understanding that the Soviets would not stand by if that happened, dismissed MacArthur.
With neither side having the will or the means to accomplish total victory, and with the very real threat of the conflict spiralling, the war was "ended" with an armistice.

[renmin]

the US and the Chinese shouldnt have even been in the war, this is why the US joined, because they wanted to stop comunism from spreading and to attack CHINA, well why even care about the spread? the Chinese joined because if the US and South Koreans had won, the US could build a military base and asemble its troops instead of coming by sea, too attack China, so how would you like it if your enemy was standing at your doorstep everyday just waiting to harry you?ChairmenMao saw this coming so China joined the North Koreans.

[Liberator]

the US and the Chinese shouldnt have even been in the war, this is why the US joined, because they wanted to stop comunism from spreading and to attack CHINA, well why even care about the spread? the Chinese joined because if the US and South Koreans had won, the US could build a military base and asemble its troops instead of coming by sea, too attack China, so how would you like it if your enemy was standing at your doorstep everyday just waiting to harry you?ChairmenMao saw this coming so China joined the North Koreans.

I agree. Last time I was watching the history channel in morning on weekends. USA joined the war because SK is allied with USA, and USA want to stop the spread of Communism. China joined the war because China feel threatened, because USA and SK was nearly at the border between NK and China! USA want people on its side, thats why she attacked Vietnam.

[T-U-P]

North Korea shouldn't start the war in the beginning, especially from a chinese perspective. because china was preparing its forces in the south to invade and take back taiwan. then all of sudden korean war happened and US intervened, so now china has two options: 1) keep preparing for the invasion of taiwan and take it back before caring about korea, and 2) get the army into korea as soon as possible to prevent north korea from completely dominated by US. China at that time does not have the capability of fighting a two front war (it still doesn't) in korea and in the taiwan strait, especially because china didn't really have a navy. so china chose option #2 and helped korea because at the time it seems to be the best option since china didn't have a navy strong enough at that time anyway, might as well wait for further modernization and stop US from coming too close in the mean time.

if china had chosen to continue the plan on attacking taiwan, then there can be two outcomes: 1) taiwan would be taken back and there wouldn't be and crisis in the taiwan strait today, of course north korea might not exist either and US would have a military base right on the boarder. or 2) PLAN fails to sail across the strait completely and get totally destroyed by the ROC navy, as well as a US military base just outside the door. out of these two outcomes, the second one is more likely to happen since the PLAN didn't have that many ships and all their ships are crap compared to the ROC navy. plus Mao didn't have much experience in naval battles. (the strait is far more dangerous for PLAN than the Yangzi River).

great... now i don't know what my point is... oh well, just see this as some extra info.

[chinawhite]

There are two ways of looking at the korean war. good and bad.

Good side.

*China entered the korean war helping north korea, and with that gained a ally.

*It thrusted china in the worlds third most powerful airforce with a very large portion of it the very modern Mig-15s.

*Gave confidence to the chinese nation which from 1842 had experienced year after year of humilation. It unifled all those forces in china which had not supported the communist.

*It gave america a great big scare and they didn't want to mess with chian in vietnam fearing another big blooding conflict.

*Forcing the americans to make their longest retreat in history

Bad side.

*For a country which was just created after 40+ years of civil war and suffered so much. To wage a war againest the worlds most powerful and richest country. It cost china many millions of doolars and labour which could have been used instead do improve chinas economy. And didn't need to pay the Soviet union with wheat during the Great leap foward.

*It pushed china closer to the soviet union(my opinion is that it was bad)

*Pushed china more away from america, Which china was planning on to get money from

*Lost taiwan Becuase their planned invasion wasn't workable with the american 7th fleet stationed there

*Made japan have a very quick recovery.

[T-U-P]

*Lost taiwan Becuase their planned invasion wasn't workable with the american 7th fleet stationed there

it's not neccessarily lost, but in a very bad position to take it back right now nevertheless. (not that it was in a good position before the korean war anyway)

[chinawhite]

lol...

I meant lost opputunity, Because after 1948-1949 the americans cut off funds to jiang jieshi and practically gave up all support.

They weren't even planning to send aid to him. during the PLA invasion of Jinmen the US navy refused to send aid to help jiang jieshi's forces.

So i would count US help to jiang jieshi out. Even if the PLA planned a 1million man siwm it could have effectily invaded taiwan.( taking their share of casulties)

{Has anyone heard the joke about the PLAs invasion of taiwan?A one million man swim.
Its not saying they are swimming it but mocking the PLAs then non-existant navy}

Regards,

Chinawhite

[T-U-P]

Even if the PLA planned a 1million man siwm it could have effectily invaded taiwan.( taking their share of casulties)

ahahaha, that's the best idea i've heard in days. swim...

but anyway, this is a korean war thread so let's keep it there.

[sumdud]

and up until the late 1970s, north korea was richer and had higher standard of living than south korea.Really?!
because china was preparing its forces in the south to invade and take back taiwan. Well, PLA would not have been able to take back Taiwan anyway. There aren't enough boats. And even if they build them, they probably had problems. Craftsmanship was poor and some boats sank due to high center of Gravity. (That reminds me, how could the Ulsan FFG in SK float? It's so high!)

Now back to topic.
China helped NK for 2 reasons:
1. To get aid from USSR. Help Kim and China'll get the help. The Soviets did not train Kim for nothing.
2. To get the USA away, or at least get a buffer zone.

Kim could care less.
He knew China valued NK as a buffer zone. And as long as China is afraid of the US on its shores, and that Kim does not realise the decline in population in his land, he would do nothing. (If he wants a big military, he better do something. He could use less people to lower food demand, but losing all but soldiers are worse.)

Kim could've really unified Korea if Pusan fell in time.

[chinawhite]

My opinion...

The only reason china helped korea during the korean war was because they didn't want america next to their border. If you look on a map north korea is right next to manchuria. and the manchurian factories at that time were suppiled by a Hydroelectric plant on the Yula river. If the americans had control of these plants then they could easily slow chinas recovery.

This actoin could have been made before a invasion of china itself by KMT forces which had just been ousted by the communist. A invasion of chian during this time was really real. Mac arthur even planned to use nukes on chinas coast and KMT troops in burma

If china didn't attacked american forces then it would have been almost surrounded on 3 sides.

Regards,

Chinawhite

[renmin]

My opinion...

The only reason china helped korea during the korean war was because they didn't want america next to their border. If you look on a map north korea is right next to manchuria. and the manchurian factories at that time were suppiled by a Hydroelectric plant on the Yula river. If the americans had control of these plants then they could easily slow chinas recovery.

This actoin could have been made before a invasion of china itself by KMT forces which had just been ousted by the communist. A invasion of chian during this time was really real. Mac arthur even planned to use nukes on chinas coast and KMT troops in burma

If china didn't attacked american forces then it would have been almost surrounded on 3 sides.

Regards,

ChinawhiteThat is very true, my opinion:I believe Mc Arthur wanted to attack mainland China for revenge after his stagering defeat, obviously, trumen disagreed with this not because this will spark a world war but the US is too far away and there really no efficient way to attack the PRC without being nailed, BUT, if the US and Sk had won, then I garantee you that the US would have built an military base and raid an envasion for mainland China.

[sumdud]

KMT forces in Burma? Why'd MacArthur want to nuke those guys?
3 sides?
It's a good thing MacArthur isn't in charge of nukes.

[chinawhite]

After ww2 the chinese soldiers stationed in the Burma theater stayed there to "keep the peace". And others had come to burma running from communist forces after 1949. They weren't a lage force but only guerrilla type forces

The three sides are taiwan, korea and burma.

Mac arthur wanted to use colbalt(something like that) to make a radioactive wall around china so no communist forces could get out. this plan included nuking 10-13 cities on chinas coast



Regards,

Chinawhite

[JZXT]

That is very true, my opinion:I believe Mc Arthur wanted to attack mainland China for revenge after his stagering defeat, obviously, trumen disagreed with this not because this will spark a world war but the US is too far away and there really no efficient way to attack the PRC without being nailed, BUT, if the US and Sk had won, then I garantee you that the US would have built an military base and raid an envasion for mainland China.

Yes, McArthur wanted to nuke China. But Truman did not want another WW and fired him.

if china had chosen to continue the plan on attacking taiwan, then there can be two outcomes: 1) taiwan would be taken back and there wouldn't be and crisis in the taiwan strait today, of course north korea might not exist either and US would have a military base right on the boarder. or 2) PLAN fails to sail across the strait completely and get totally destroyed by the ROC navy, as well as a US military base just outside the door. out of these two outcomes, the second one is more likely to happen since the PLAN didn't have that many ships and all their ships are crap compared to the ROC navy. plus Mao didn't have much experience in naval battles. (the strait is far more dangerous for PLAN than the Yangzi River).

Mao asked Stalin's help for attacking Taiwan. But it was believed Stalin thought Korea was more urgent. And second, Stalin did not want a China that was friendly to the US. Even a China that was indifference to the US would mean uncertainty for USSR. The USSR and US were at the beginning of the Cold War. China would served as another pawn and counter balance to the US dominant. But Inevitably, China played well into USSR's plan. Also because of US was at the door step and the worried of US sentiment about communism at that time.

USSR was not willing to share its nuclear and other technologies w/ China and not providing assitance for unification of Taiwan. China's relationship w/USSR had gone sour after the Korean War.

[Ender Wiggin]

From my understanding, MarCarther (hear me out) was correct military standpoint, the General Staff was preventing from having the USAAF from hotly pursueing enemy aircraft into Manchuria, prevented him from bombing airfields within Manchuria, and prevented him from bombing the bridges between NK and PRC, howver they said he could bomb the Korean half of the bridges, and MarAurther replied "throughout my 52 years of military service i have never learned how to bomb only half a bridge!"

The straw that broke the camels back was when MA disobeyed a direct order from the president and sent a message over the airwaves sayin that unless the Chinese Commander negotiated with him personally he would destory all his forces.

Truman from their had him relieved from Command.

So militarily, MacArthur was correct but politically he was suicidal since it ould've caused WWIII.

So what exactly composed the PLA units sent to aid the Koreans? I was just told that the PLA used Nationalist POW's as cannon fodder. Please correct this for me if my source is wrong.

[PiSigma]

Ender DO NOT DOUBLE POST, but since this thread has been dry for a long time, i'm going to forgive you this time, next time you'll get a warning

PVA never used nationalist POWs as cannon fodder, that's because at the time, when nationalist POWs surrendered, they immediately join the PLA ranks, and fight along with the communists. when you don't have food, it's fight for who ever gives you food, not much ideology involved, ideology only came later on.

[Ender Wiggin]

I didn't double post that I am aware of, did I post the same thing twice? If not then well its been a long time since I posted last.

As for your info yes thats pretty much what I figured/knew just wanted to make sure since I haven't read in too much about the Korean war.

Double post doesn't mean you posted the same thing twice, that would be just as bad. Double posting means you have two continuous posts. go to page 4, and you'll see the last post is also your's.

[patriot]

The Korean war is totally a stupid war to start with. None of the country involved gained anything from the war. Only the casualties and the money wasted.

[Norfolk]

The PLA has long been characterized as having resorted to "Human Wave Tactics" in offensive operations. Given the relative scarcity of infantry heavy weapons, armour, and artillery in the PLA until more recent decades, the PLA was compelled to use infantry where much more mechanized armies could use machines and firepower instead. To many of those armies who fought the PLA, the battlefield tactics used would certainly appear to be little more than organized waves of lightly-armed and -equipped infantry, but this is illusory. What appeared to be "Human Waves" were in fact highly organized and tactically efficient battlefield formations used by well-trained infantry who knew what they were doing. If there was anything wrong with such tactics aside from their lack of armour and artillery support (which was a material impossibility anyway), it was that the PLA infantry, conscious of their superb training and discipline, considered their opponents to be inferior, leading to over-confidence and underestimation of their enemy.

That said, these two chapters on the PVA in the Korean Way are perhaps the best description that I have seen so far of how the PLA fought well into the 1970's, perhaps even into the 1980's. I fear that some of what the PLA is doing now in its modernization programme may lead to the loss or marginalization of some of the best of its infantry skills.

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/csi.asp

Scroll down to Research Surveys. You're looking for No. 6, "A Historical onPerspective on Light Infantry", by Major Scott R. McMichael, in PDF. Click and go to ch_2, pt_1 and ch_2, pt_2. Good read.

[crobato]

Great lilnks. I would recommend it to anyone.



That said, these two chapters on the PVA in the Korean Way are perhaps the best description that I have seen so far of how the PLA fought well into the 1970's, perhaps even into the 1980's. I fear that some of what the PLA is doing now in its modernization programme may lead to the loss or marginalization of some of the best of its infantry skills.

Despite all the modernity and education, I think today's PLA soldier would have a tough time trying to match the mental, psychological and morale near inhuman toughness of the PVA soldier in the Korean war.

Long term social effect of "one child policy" may have created a nation of spoiled "little Emperors" as one puts it.

[sunchips]

There are two ways of looking at the korean war. good and bad.

Good side.

*China entered the korean war helping north korea, and with that gained a ally.

*It thrusted china in the worlds third most powerful airforce with a very large portion of it the very modern Mig-15s.

*Gave confidence to the chinese nation which from 1842 had experienced year after year of humilation. It unifled all those forces in china which had not supported the communist.

*It gave america a great big scare and they didn't want to mess with chian in vietnam fearing another big blooding conflict.

*Forcing the americans to make their longest retreat in history

Bad side.

*For a country which was just created after 40+ years of civil war and suffered so much. To wage a war againest the worlds most powerful and richest country. It cost china many millions of doolars and labour which could have been used instead do improve chinas economy. And didn't need to pay the Soviet union with wheat during the Great leap foward.

*It pushed china closer to the soviet union(my opinion is that it was bad)

*Pushed china more away from america, Which china was planning on to get money from

*Lost taiwan Becuase their planned invasion wasn't workable with the american 7th fleet stationed there

*Made japan have a very quick recovery.


From a Chinese perspective, I honestly wouldn't call North Korea a very reliable "ally", considering Kim Jong Il recently mentioned "three" party talks about the armistice. In fact, it was through the friendliness of the South Koreans that China might actually get to participate in the talks.
But they way I see it though, is that North Korea is the big reason that the Taiwan problems still exists today. The minute Mr. Kim invaded the South, the Americans realized the urgent need to stop communism advance.


Through all that China's given N. Korea, all the blood and toil, and all the money, food, fuels, etc., they honestly owe us alot. With the current way N. Korea is treating China, I really feel that we were betrayed.... is there anything we can do to screw them over, perhaps not strong enough to actually make them archenemies, but just to show them we're displeased?

sorry if I offended anyone, just that I really really don't like the recent moves in politics

[King_Comm]

A question regarding to the Chinese treatment of UN POW's, while Americans taled about wide spread maltreatment or even killings of UN POW's by the Chinese, the British seem to have a more positive view on it, it is rather weird given that was no evidence to suggest that the British and American prisoners were treated differently.

According to General Anthony Farrar-Hockley, who was captured by the Chinese at the battle of Imjin as a captain, claimed:
They were not unfriendly. That is to say they did not maltreat us. It never occurred to us, of course, that they would maltreat us – much less kill us. After all, this was the mid-twentieth century and we had every right to expect to be treated as human beings by troops of a nation constantly proclaiming its humanitarianism.

While field marshal lord Carver stated:
The UN prisoners in Chinese hands, although subject to 're-education' processes of varying intensity...were certainly much better off in every way than any held by the Americans....

[ccL1]

But they way I see it though, is that North Korea is the big reason that the Taiwan problems still exists today. The minute Mr. Kim invaded the South, the Americans realized the urgent need to stop communism advance.

I could be wrong, but I was told that the Korean War prevented an invasion of Taiwan. Supposedly, the Chinese military was arming and getting prepared to invade Taiwan (with what boats to transport them to Taiwan, I don't know), but the Korean War being so close to China and with North Korea rapidly collapsing after MacArthur's Inchon Landing, China had no choice but to "delay" their invasion and focus instead on fighting off the US (and UN).

Little did they know that the "delay" has lasted over 50 years so far.

Can anyone else confirm this or was what I was told incorrect?

[simonov]

Whta happen, if Stalin died in 1955 or 56, is Korean war keep continue?

[Infra_Man99]

Regarding the treatment of prisoners:

The Chinese did send captured US troops to be re-educated or to learn Chinese Communism. Captured US troops were not always fed well or lived in good conditions, but neither did Chinese troops. This was because China was VERY poor during this time, not because China was trying to be cruel.

US troops did sent back letters to families stating racist opinions of Chinese soldiers and people in general. MacArthur was tops when it came to this, and he wanted to nuke China many times.

According to Chinese reports, US did torture Chinese troops. Captured US troops reported a much lower rate of torture than captured Chinese troops.

US military strongly denies this, but captured Vietnamese soldiers in Vietnam have said the US tortures prisoners of war. The US military has minimized tortures in both Iraqi wars and the Afghan war, but it still goes on.

[King_Comm]

I could be wrong, but I was told that the Korean War prevented an invasion of Taiwan. Supposedly, the Chinese military was arming and getting prepared to invade Taiwan (with what boats to transport them to Taiwan, I don't know), but the Korean War being so close to China and with North Korea rapidly collapsing after MacArthur's Inchon Landing, China had no choice but to "delay" their invasion and focus instead on fighting off the US (and UN).

Little did they know that the "delay" has lasted over 50 years so far.

Can anyone else confirm this or was what I was told incorrect?
==Well, the sequence of events isn't all correct, the US sent the 7th fleet to Taiwan as soon as the Korean war broke out, before the Chinese intervened in Korea.

[Quickie]

The war provided an opportunity or an excuse to send a fleet to Taiwan. The effect is the same. It may have prevented an invasion of Taiwan.

[asif iqbal]

China should never had joined the war everyone knows North Korean used China then turned to Soviet Union, North Korea used China while it could and then when China wasnt need they went off with Soviets, when in 1991 Soviets was gone North Korea come back to China when they realise they need aid and money.

Had China not interfered today North Korea would have been a economic powerhouse just like South Korea. Just look at the difference between North and South its not hard to see who won the war and which descision was better.

China has had most unfortunate history with so many bad decisions Mao think he could get weapons from Soviets if he fight US and establish military industry instead Stalin never delivered and China was trapped into a war it never had to fight.

If China never entered the korean war today 20 million would be living free life instead its like a human zoo North Koreans are most unfortunate people on planet earth

[asif iqbal]

My opinion...

The only reason china helped korea during the korean war was because they didn't want america next to their border. If you look on a map north korea is right next to manchuria. and the manchurian factories at that time were suppiled by a Hydroelectric plant on the Yula river. If the americans had control of these plants then they could easily slow chinas recovery.

This actoin could have been made before a invasion of china itself by KMT forces which had just been ousted by the communist. A invasion of chian during this time was really real. Mac arthur even planned to use nukes on chinas coast and KMT troops in burma

If china didn't attacked american forces then it would have been almost surrounded on 3 sides.

Regards,

Chinawhite

manchuria was under Jap control for long time China never had alot of resources there Soviets grabbed the land in closing day of WWII just like they did with Sakhlain and Kuril islands

US was never going to cross the Yalu river they just wanted to reach that river so no weapons comes from Soviets into Korea

fact of the matter is that Soviets trapped North Korea and China into war against US and this resulted in terrible loss for both country and infact Soviets promised to help China never materilised they just used China to fight US, Stalin never supplied the much needed weapons

but one question i do always ask is why did US and China not sit down and talk, if US gave China assurance that they will not cross Yalu river China would not have entered the war had they agreed on this part china wouldnt have entered the war

If China and US had diplomatic ties they could have come to a agreement which would have been good for both sides US never really planned to attack China because they seen failed Japanese attempt even after 2 decades Japanese failed so why would US make such mistakes again? US never wanted to attack China they just wanted to stop North Korea and reach Yalu river and call it a day, China should have stayed neutral and agreed to these terms and today Asia would have been stable without this crazy man called Kimmy

[sinowarrior]

china has to enter the war just for pure self interest, US may not intend to cross the Yalu, but it will definately pose a threat to China, since US can easily deploy its army along the border which will require China to deploy large amount of force to guard Manchuria, and more importantly Manchuria was the heavy industry hub for China. Also from pure history perspective, all the major japanese invasions were conducted from Korea, first one in Tang, then Ming and then Qing, Korea is the most important buffer zone for China and there is no way for the Chinese government to watch and see Korea fall. Also the fighting in Korea really boosted the moral of Chinese people, it is the first time in the century for China actully stopped a western power.
As for the life of Korean and the development of SK etc, it is simply not a consideration in that time, national interest forced China to protect Korea, simple as that.

[Violet Oboe]

So what...? Of course Stalin played a shrewd game; that was simply what he was used to since his old hey days as ´revolutionary expropriator´ (i.e. georgian gangster version of Jesse James...).:D

Mao was certainly not that naive for harboring any illusions about Stalin and his korean puppet Kim Il Sung but he was wary about having the American's on the Yalu border. Without doubt he was completely aware that for putting up a fight against the US China would have to pay a heavy price in wealth and blood.

Mao was willing to pay this price (...ultimately his own son) and since the end of the Korean war no major power ever dared to attack China again. Unfortunately major powers have to prove in history that messing up with them gets inevitably ugly and Mao fully understood that lesson. :nono:

[asif iqbal]

So what...? Of course Stalin played a shrewd game; that was simply what he was used to since his old hey days as ´revolutionary expropriator´ (i.e. georgian gangster version of Jesse James...).:D

Mao was certainly not that naive for harboring any illusions about Stalin and his korean puppet Kim Il Sung but he was wary about having the American's on the Yalu border. Without doubt he was completely aware that for putting up a fight against the US China would have to pay a heavy price in wealth and blood.

Mao was willing to pay this price (...ultimately his own son) and since the end of the Korean war no major power ever dared to attack China again. Unfortunately major powers have to prove in history that messing up with them gets inevitably ugly and Mao fully understood that lesson. :nono:


well maybe you have forgotten vietnam in 1979 and USSR in 1962 anyhow how did US-China relationship fall apart i mean during WWII they were allies what happened to them? was it as simple as capatilist vs communist?

[Violet Oboe]

Well, in 1979 China attacked Vietnam for retaliating against Vietnam's occupation of PRC's ally Khmer Rouge Cambodia and demonstrating that Hanoi's protector the Sovietunion would not dare to go to war with China on behalf of Vietnam's hegemonial designs for SE Asia. Obviously the political aim of punishing Hanoi for her behaviour was achieved but the military record of the PLA (though only second and third line troops were employed) was mixed at best.

As for your mentioning of the 1969 border clashes with the USSR: This episode only serves to prove that the PRC had won up to this date enough credibility (e.g. PLA had already tested a 3 Mt thermonuclear weapon in '67:D) to deter even a superpower like the former Sovietunion from invading the mainland. Of course Mao made a dangerous gamble since he knew that Moscow could make a devastating incursion into northern China under the umbrella of her vastly superior nuclear forces but after all he was correct in assuming that Brezhnev would not take that kind of incalculable risk.

(...the US watched this developments closely and a couple of years later Nixon came to Beijing...so Mao's strategy had indeed paid off!:D)

[sinowarrior]

also from historical point of view, every time korea got invaded, need to exclud the Chinese invasions , China will send troops to fight for it. Well US and KMT were allies, not with Communist, and ideology played an important part, US relased report "United States Relations with China, with a Special Reference to the Period 1944-1949" in 1949, and based on the paper itself, it is possible to say that US actully wants to foster a good relationship with PRC, but then Mao totally killed any potential offers with his own article, and with the out break of Korea war, there is no chance for US or China to have a relationship until late 70s

[GermanChinese]

as far as i know the Soviets did contribute "forces" into the Korean war, if they contribute enough material though? :( .

On a TV documentation about the Korean War, some russian units, especially pilots with their MIG trained chinese and north korean personell and participate disguised as chinese unit in dogfight with the Airforce. In an interview one of the pilots told they often forgot in the heat of battle not to speak russian over the micro.

I think the US realized that they are shooting at the communist from Russia, but didn`t announced it to not make the situation worser than it is

[Spike]

IMHO Stalin miscalculated in the Korean War. He thought he could have a no-lose situation where the outcome would either be a united Korea under communism or a weakened and discredited China. In the end he got neither, North Korea was nearly destroyed and forced to rely upon China, which had managed to hold off the Americans despite a total lack of air support, artillery, or even basic transport (promised by Stalin) for the first part of the war.

[Norfolk]

The entire Korean War was a miscalculation, sadly. The North Koreans thought that they could overrun South Korea before anyone could intervene to stop them. The United States thought that China would never intervene against them. The Chinese thought that they could whip the Americans and drive them out of Korea. And everyone kind of fumbled around for the last two years or so of the war because no-one wanted to lose, but no-one could quite figure out how to win, either.:confused:

Militarily though, the war had the effect of spurring the Americans to rebuild their conventional forces since the nuclear deterent that they thought would, well, deter, anyone from fighting them didn't quite work out. And militarily, it proved both the fighting power of Chinese troops against UN troops from all over the world; but it also proved how badly (and expensive in loss of life) even good infantry without adequate heavy weapons support (not that China could have done anything about that at the time anyway) would often fare against often mediocre infantry that had more heavy weapons support than anyone else had in warfare up to that time. The result was strategic stalemate.

[Raptoreyes]

The entire Korean War was a miscalculation, sadly. The North Koreans thought that they could overrun South Korea before anyone could intervene to stop them. The United States thought that China would never intervene against them. The Chinese thought that they could whip the Americans and drive them out of Korea. And everyone kind of fumbled around for the last two years or so of the war because no-one wanted to lose, but no-one could quite figure out how to win, either.:confused:

Militarily though, the war had the effect of spurring the Americans to rebuild their conventional forces since the nuclear deterent that they thought would, well, deter, anyone from fighting them didn't quite work out. And militarily, it proved both the fighting power of Chinese troops against UN troops from all over the world; but it also proved how badly (and expensive in loss of life) even good infantry without adequate heavy weapons support (not that China could have done anything about that at the time anyway) would often fare against often mediocre infantry that had more heavy weapons support than anyone else had in warfare up to that time. The result was strategic stalemate.

One of the best summations I have ever read of the Korean War.

My only comment is that American infantry especially toward the end of the war was rather superb, in addition to having more heavy weapons than have ever been granted as infantry support to that time. Let us not forget that one American division under the command of General Chesty Puller was able to fend off eight different Chinese divisions that surrounded them. Generally speaking envelopment is fatal for most armies.

The Korean War may have had an indeterminate end but because the whole country is a peninsula, it was perhaps the best place America could have fought war against the PLA. The ability to land troops behind enemy forces, such as happened at Inchon was pivotal to a land force enjoying supremacy at sea. Best of all, the Chinese never again tried to force a land engagement after having experienced concentrated American firepower.

[ahho]

china has to enter the war just for pure self interest, US may not intend to cross the Yalu, but it will definately pose a threat to China, since US can easily deploy its army along the border which will require China to deploy large amount of force to guard Manchuria, and more importantly Manchuria was the heavy industry hub for China. Also from pure history perspective, all the major japanese invasions were conducted from Korea, first one in Tang, then Ming and then Qing, Korea is the most important buffer zone for China and there is no way for the Chinese government to watch and see Korea fall. Also the fighting in Korea really boosted the moral of Chinese people, it is the first time in the century for China actully stopped a western power.
As for the life of Korean and the development of SK etc, it is simply not a consideration in that time, national interest forced China to protect Korea, simple as that.


well from a film that i watched, it was mao's idea to help the korean while most of his associate dissagreed with him. So if mao did not perceived US attack on China then they wouldn't have attack.

[mimiCat]

You don't know that. Despite all the revolutionary talks, it is common knowlege that Mao saw himself as a chinese emperor, if you read his poems it's so obvious, he compared himself with all the famous emperors in the past, including Gehgis Kahn, and find that he is better than all of them. He did everything he could to stay in power, killed everyone who could threat him.

It is only logical that he would pass his power to his son. Sending his son to korea war was a move to build up his son's reputation, Mao Anying was placed in the army headquarter of the chief commander general Peng De Huai, he was never near a real battle. He was only unlucky that one day when Peng left, american planes bombed the headquarter and killed him. General Peng was one of the best generals of PLA, but Mao punished him for the death of Anying, Peng died a miserable death.

god，western propagandism。In fact that Mao is a thorough populist，all his life what he hated most was bureaucracy，and he believed that only with people government officers can‘t dare to defalcate；He made a perfect fetish of people，He said：“people，only people，is the power of creating history” ，tenet of a party is “serving for people”。And one of his military doctrines is “people war”。In culture revolution， crazy people took him as china’s emperor，he just acknowledged contemptuously that he was their teacher at most.
After the foundation of PRC,many generals of PLA became very corrupt,they thougt that they created the new country,they should have some rights condignly.Mao is very worry about that,but at that time his power is in control of Liushaoqi,he even couldn't publish an article in newspaper,but he was very clever in political competition,he beated Pengdehuai with the help of Liushaoqi,as a matter of fact,Liushaoqi aggressed Peng most actively in Lushan Meeting,and Liu first brought "cult of personality".But after that,Liu was more deplorable than Peng.

It was definetly NOT the US who started the war, it was North Korea that invaded the South, the US intervened on large scale after a UN resolution had been passed.

The Chinese intervention certainly stopped the UN-forces from winning the war and uniting Korea under a democratic regime, and when comparing the postions of North and South Korea today one can ask wheter this benefitted the North Koreans.

obviously south korea is not democratic.Military government ruled South Korea till 1987,treating its people tyrannically.The leader of south korea was more brutal than the King in north korea.

well from a film that i watched, it was mao's idea to help the korean while most of his associate dissagreed with him. So if mao did not perceived US attack on China then they wouldn't have attack.
If US occupied north korea,it would be a very dangerous threaten to china.so it was necessary for mao to dispatch troops.This was also most generals' viewpoint

[Spike]

The entire Korean War was a miscalculation, sadly. The North Koreans thought that they could overrun South Korea before anyone could intervene to stop them. The United States thought that China would never intervene against them. The Chinese thought that they could whip the Americans and drive them out of Korea. And everyone kind of fumbled around for the last two years or so of the war because no-one wanted to lose, but no-one could quite figure out how to win, either.:confused:

Militarily though, the war had the effect of spurring the Americans to rebuild their conventional forces since the nuclear deterent that they thought would, well, deter, anyone from fighting them didn't quite work out. And militarily, it proved both the fighting power of Chinese troops against UN troops from all over the world; but it also proved how badly (and expensive in loss of life) even good infantry without adequate heavy weapons support (not that China could have done anything about that at the time anyway) would often fare against often mediocre infantry that had more heavy weapons support than anyone else had in warfare up to that time. The result was strategic stalemate.
To my knowledge, the Chinese political leadership didn't expect the Korean War to be a cakewalk; they had no illusions about the strength of American military power. Apparently, Mao paced his study for sixty hours before finally rolling the dice; this was after Stalin had continuously prodded him and promised air support (which never came).

[Soviet General]

The Korean War was an act of imperialism,and yes the war starded by the North Koreans.Thy would haved one but the Soviet Union was not present to veto the UN involvment in the war.:coffee:

[maozedong]

to my knowledge China sent troops to Korea, not after Mao Zedong met with Stalin.
When the Korean War started, Mao Zedong immediately dispatched several Army troops to the China - North Korea border, known as border guards, once they are in China's civil war, the fighting in the region over the forces, but also elite troops.
With the North Korea military was defeated, Pyongyang was occupied, Kim Il-sung, fled into the mountains north of the border, Mao Zedong's request to send troops, after a night of consideration, Mao ordered border forces quietly went into North Korea border mountains area, and hiding there. While the UN troops in the northern mountain area combat with the residual North Korea troops , the Chinese army is also involved in a small-scale fighting, but the U.S. military not know.
the fighting subsided for a period of time that Mark arthur thought the North Korean army already have all escaped, but 300,000 chinese troops hiding in the north mountain area of North Korea, waiting for the opportunity, there is also commander Peng Dehuai plan military operations in this mountain area.
When the UN forces large-scale entered to the north mountain area of North Korea, the Chinese army launched a military offensive to the UN troops, while Chinese army from China entered to North Korea, from northwest to southeast direction attack UN troops,with the hiding northern mountains of Chinese army operation, UN troops were surrounded and separated,
All of these occurre and Mao Zedong visited Soviet Union almost the same time, it is difficult to distinguish the right time,after Mao Zedong return to China the war officially announced.

[Spike]

When the Korean War started, Mao Zedong immediately dispatched several Army troops to the China - North Korea border, known as border guards, once they are in China's civil war, the fighting in the region over the forces, but also elite troops.
Mao relocated forces originally meant for the invasion of Taiwan to the northeast after the US 7th Fleet started patrolling the Taiwan Strait in June, making any invasion attempt impossible.
to my knowledge China sent troops to Korea, not after Mao Zedong met with Stalin.
Stalin actually contacted Mao on October 5-7, warning of the possibility of US-Japan forces on the Chinese border. He also promised the USSR would "stand [behind] its ally."
With the North Korea military was defeated, Pyongyang was occupied, Kim Il-sung, fled into the mountains north of the border, Mao Zedong's request to send troops, after a night of consideration, Mao ordered border forces quietly went into North Korea border mountains area, and hiding there. While the UN troops in the northern mountain area combat with the residual North Korea troops , the Chinese army is also involved in a small-scale fighting, but the U.S. military not know.
the fighting subsided for a period of time that Mark arthur thought the North Korean army already have all escaped, but 300,000 chinese troops hiding in the north mountain area of North Korea, waiting for the opportunity, there is also commander Peng Dehuai plan military operations in this mountain area.
One of the major goals of Kim Il Sung's invasion was to try and make his communist regime strong enough to break away from Chinese influence. He got plenty of armaments from Stalin, but refused Chinese help until the situation became hopeless in mid-September. He hated the idea that he would need to rely on his huge neighbour, why do you think there is so little official credit given to the hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers who died in North Korea? It's only mentioned when a Chinese leader visits every so often.
When the UN forces large-scale entered to the north mountain area of North Korea, the Chinese army launched a military offensive to the UN troops, while Chinese army from China entered to North Korea, from northwest to southeast direction attack UN troops,with the hiding northern mountains of Chinese army operation, UN troops were surrounded and separated,
All of these occurre and Mao Zedong visited Soviet Union almost the same time, it is difficult to distinguish the right time,after Mao Zedong return to China the war officially announced.
Mao hesitated when Stalin suddenly withdrew his promised "full support" in favour of limited support (ie. air support no closer than 100km from the front, which is basically no air support).

Mao made his decision on Oct 13, and the first Chinese volunteers moved in between Oct. 16-19, delayed because of lack of forthcoming air support. The first contact between Chinese and US/UN forces was made on Oct. 25, the first Chinese POW captured on Oct. 26. Amazingly, Macarthur refused to heed the evidence that China was preparing to intervene and continued to drive towards the Yalu, which meant his forces would be far from their southern bases and stretched out in poor terrain. Major combat began on Nov. 26.

[maozedong]

re Spike:
After the beginning of the Korean War, Mao Zedong to the repatriation of several corps of Northeast China, comprising the northeast frontier guards, which is a reality in China's official commemoration of the Korean War 50th anniversary of the film documentary, referred to the very beginning, it is to China's national security , but you actually think it is preparing to invade Korea, the Taiwan side also steered to the invasion, it is ridiculous.
Let me tell you the composition of these forces-it: They are the PLA 38th Armycorp, 39th Armycorp, 40th and 42tharmycorp, artiller first Division, the Second Division, the 8th division, a antiaircraft artillery regiments, a workers Corps, a total of 250,000 people.
The above information, you can <Lin Biao and Mao Zedong> find inside this book sound.
Do you think that Mao Zedong to invade Taiwan, but would not make such a decision, this is only your personal political views, it can not be used to prove the occurrence of history, you committed a mistake in principle, in fact, 250,000 people, compared to the time 400 PLA million, it is only a small number of Taiwan war does not affect operations.
When Pyongyang was occupied, Kim Il-sung, fled to China - North Korea border in the mountains, North Korea army less than 30,000 people, or Is this an impasse? Remember, Pyongyang was occupied, is October 19, the official China and the UN military operations is on October 25, it is during this period of time, Kim Il Sung request Mao Zedong to send troops, and also wrote a letter to Mao Zedong, Mao make a decision in the next day, with other Chinese leaders to discuss his decision and the letter referred to the content of these, in China's film documentary inside, we can see that the Kim Il Sung personally original handwriting.
But you said that a lot of the Kim Il-sung could not want help from China's so-called reasons, those that reason, is the rule your personal political views, using personal political viewpoints to imagine history, but not to verify that you committed mistakes in principle again.
China several months before the dispatch of troops, Zhou Enlai, warned the US, not by leaps and bounds line north latitud 38 degrees, otherwise, China will send troops to the war, but US did not care about. China has been considering the issue of sending troops, I mentioned that a night of Mao Zedong only the final decision, I am not writing a book, I just wrote a short article post, but you also add a lot of personal political views, what victims of millions of Chinese people's lives, you have the principle recidivism mistake again.
Well, I also discuss political views it, but I was about history. China from the Tang dynasty, which has been fighting for Korea, including the Ming dynasty, the Qing dynasty, the Korean victims of Japanese aggression, China would send troops to the war, the Ming Dynasty, has sent 100,000 army and the large number of warships, to the Korean and Japanese operations, defeated the Japanese. government of the Qing Dynasty in 1898, debilitating, it is still sending troops to the Korean war, but failed, the subsequent loss of Korea. why China has been fighting for Korea because Korea has a bearing on China's national security, deeply aware that the history of China's Mao Zedong, the last in the Korean critical juncture, because the situation changes so rapidly, it made a resolute decision, which is Suitable of China's advantage,if you like this, no decision , but also think about what Taiwan war, the history of China today and you may rewrite.
last,verify about history,you and me just show both different copies because we got the knowledge from different way, self opinion just for viewing history.

[maozedong]

Also, I should correct that the the person who visited Soviet Union is Zhou Enlai,not Mao Zedong, most people know this.my English is poor,the statement in post by copy, after done, I didn' not re-examine it again, I write a comment in post it is very difficult, this is a mistake here, I would like to apologize.

[Norfolk]

To my knowledge, the Chinese political leadership didn't expect the Korean War to be a cakewalk; they had no illusions about the strength of American military power. Apparently, Mao paced his study for sixty hours before finally rolling the dice; this was after Stalin had continuously prodded him and promised air support (which never came).

The problem was that the PVA had overestimated its own fighting ability and underestimated the ability of firepower to make up for much of the inferior fighting ability of many UN troops. The PVA, forced by its own circumstances to have to do without much in the way of Heavy Weapons, was actually compelled by those same circumstances to play to the UN Forces' strengths; thus the PRC's strength in high-quality Infantry was matched against the UN strength in high-quality Artillery, and the matching of the two strengths ultimately led to effective stalemate. From A Historical Perspective on Light Infantry by Scott R. McMichael:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/content.asp#hist

"Understanding this philosophy is central to understanding how and why the Chinese operated as they did in the Korean War. The expression "man over weapons" was not an empty slogan. The CCF's leadership and its soldiers firmly believed that by exploiting their superior human capabilities they would inevitably achieve success over the machine-burdened UN Command. This doctrine, they believed, had a certain moral strength to it, a spiritual power that guaranteed ascendancy on the battlefield. Furthermore, the Chinese were firmly convinced that when it came to soldiering-to the unyielding discipline and sacrifice required of men in combat-that the American and ROK soldiers were no match for them. Certainly, the early successes of the CCF reinforced its ideas that weapons did not count and that men did." (Chapter 2, Part I, Page 53).

maozedong, no need to apologize; you make your points very clearly even if your English is a little rough and arranged in Chinese sentence-order.

Yes, the PRC had sent warnings to be heard by the Americans, but through a combination of misunderstanding the ways of Chinese diplomacy and simply not believing that China would actually intervene against the US, and underestimating the PRC's will and ability to do so, led of course to the defeat of UN Forces in North Korea and the subsequent crossing of the PVA into South Korea in pursuit of the UN Forces.

That said, given the ultimate outcome of the Korean War and the losses on both sides, it seems that the chief benefactors were the North Korean leadership; everyone else footed the bill for their ambitions.:(

[peperez]

well from a film that i watched, it was mao's idea to help the korean while most of his associate dissagreed with him. So if mao did not perceived US attack on China then they wouldn't have attack.

Donald D. Spence wrote The Search for Modern China, a fantastic book about the lat 500 years of China. He used a lot of Chinese documents to write his book. There's a strong and vivid description about Mao and his staff asking Kim Il sung to not attack the South. To be fair, McArthur was projecting a guerrilla war against China using nationalist troops from Taiwan.

Cheers

Pepe

[Spike]

re Spike:
Do you think that Mao Zedong to invade Taiwan, but would not make such a decision, this is only your personal political views, it can not be used to prove the occurrence of history, you committed a mistake in principle, in fact, 250,000 people, compared to the time 400 PLA million, it is only a small number of Taiwan war does not affect operations.
When Pyongyang was occupied, Kim Il-sung, fled to China - North Korea border in the mountains, North Korea army less than 30,000 people, or Is this an impasse? Remember, Pyongyang was occupied, is October 19, the official China and the UN military operations is on October 25, it is during this period of time, Kim Il Sung request Mao Zedong to send troops, and also wrote a letter to Mao Zedong, Mao make a decision in the next day, with other Chinese leaders to discuss his decision and the letter referred to the content of these, in China's film documentary inside, we can see that the Kim Il Sung personally original handwriting.
But you said that a lot of the Kim Il-sung could not want help from China's so-called reasons, those that reason, is the rule your personal political views, using personal political viewpoints to imagine history, but not to verify that you committed mistakes in principle again.
China several months before the dispatch of troops, Zhou Enlai, warned the US, not by leaps and bounds line north latitud 38 degrees, otherwise, China will send troops to the war, but US did not care about. China has been considering the issue of sending troops, I mentioned that a night of Mao Zedong only the final decision, I am not writing a book, I just wrote a short article post, but you also add a lot of personal political views, what victims of millions of Chinese people's lives, you have the principle recidivism mistake again.
The statements were actually gleaned from respected scholars of history, who base their arguments upon solid records, including Soviet ones which have been recently opened up. I assure you they are definitely not products of my imagination. ;)

If you want my sources I can refer you to them.
The problem was that the PVA had overestimated its own fighting ability and underestimated the ability of firepower to make up for much of the inferior fighting ability of many UN troops.
Apparently Mao was pushed to his decision by his generals, namely Peng Dehuai and Gao Gang. So perhaps the political leadership (ie. Mao and Zhou Enlai) was more cautious than the military. Ironically this mirrored the American situation in some respects.
Donald D. Spence wrote The Search for Modern China, a fantastic book about the lat 500 years of China. He used a lot of Chinese documents to write his book. There's a strong and vivid description about Mao and his staff asking Kim Il sung to not attack the South. To be fair, McArthur was projecting a guerrilla war against China using nationalist troops from Taiwan.

Cheers

Pepe
It's Jonathan D. Spence. :D But yes that book is a great introduction to modern Chinese history.

[peperez]

It's Jonathan D. Spence. :D But yes that book is a great introduction to modern Chinese history.

I know that! I think a name and wrote another! At that moment I was working and reading the forum at the same time!

Cheers


Pepe

[Norfolk]

A pair of interesting sources on how the PVA fought in Korea, and going into some specifics on tactics and related matter:

Enemy Tactics (Headquarters, Eight U.S. Army (EUSAK), 1951) (http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/docrepository/enemy_tactics_in_korea_field_study_dec_1951.pdf)

This document focuses especially upon minor-unit-level tactics and matters.

Enemy Tactics, Techniques, and Doctrine (HQ IX Corps, G-2 Section, 1951) (http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/docrepository/enemy_tactics_techniques_doctrine_intelligence_stu dies_1951.pdf)

This document goes into particulars on how the PVA Rifle Squad moved in the Offense, amongst other matters.

Both of these complement Chapter 2 of A Historical Perspective on Light Infantry, by Scott R. McMichael (http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/content.asp#hist), by adding quite a bit more depth and detail.

[crobato]

Nice find. Thanks.

[asif iqbal]

If you look at South Korea and compare with North you know who really won that war, I wish China never entered that war because today the whole Korean Peninusla would have been one big massive economic powerhouse.

I hold China respondsible for creation of a lunatic country like North Korea and it is its responsibility to help North Koreans get ride of that lunatic leader kimmy.

[asif iqbal]

Once US reached the Yalu River they stopped and had no intension of coming into China so it was China that attacked US and pushed them back to the parrael line.

China should not have got involved in korean war because North Korean then turn to Soviet Union and spit in face of Chinese after Chinese help.

[Player 0]

If you look at South Korea and compare with North you know who really won that war, I wish China never entered that war because today the whole Korean Peninusla would have been one big massive economic powerhouse.

I hold China respondsible for creation of a lunatic country like North Korea and it is its responsibility to help North Koreans get ride of that lunatic leader kimmy.

Actually throughout most of their history during the Cold War, NKorea was economically superior to the south, it's only within the last three decades with the fall of the USSR that things went bad for NKorea.

Once US reached the Yalu River they stopped and had no intension of coming into China so it was China that attacked US and pushed them back to the parrael line.

China should not have got involved in korean war because North Korean then turn to Soviet Union and spit in face of Chinese after Chinese help.

What do you base that off of exactly? The fact that the US didn't continue the war and try to force communists out of Korea? The US, if victorious in Korea with no direct intervention from the PRC or the USSR would've most likely attacked China next as China was a weak nation with a new government at that time, although it's unlikely they'd succeed that wouldn't mean they wouldn't be emboldened by their early successes and try to replicate it in all other parts of Asia where communism existed, it's the same reason why Hitler sought to attack the USSR after the conquest of Poland, why the Japanese wanted to take the entire ROC after they had taken Manchuria with no resistence by the local armed forces.

[Norfolk]

Player 0 is right about North Korea's industrial development versus South Korea's, to a point. Prior to the Korean War, the northern part of Korea was not only Korea's industrial heartland, but was one of the industrial powerhouses of the Japanese Empire. That is, until the Soviets occupied the area at the end of WWII and US strategic bombing during the Korean War substantially reduced the remainder. Finally, of course, industrial development in the South had surpassed that in the North by the 1960's or 1970's.

As to whether the U.S. would have invaded Manchuria or not, whether the PRC knew it or not, the U.S. simply had no intention of invading. It was obsessed with the old warning to "avoid engaging in a land war on the mainland of Asia". The US did not even attempt such a thing during WWII (minus a few thousand of Merill's Marauder's in India and Burma, and thence to advisory missions in China), even though their principal ally in the Pacific Theatre, China, was holding down the bulk of Japan's military force. That should speak volumes about what U.S. thinking with regards to fighting in China would entail; clearly they balked at the very notion. That they even intervened in Korea to prevent the fall of the South marked quite a departure in US foreign policy, as prior to the Korean War the US really was adverse to engaging in any major wars short of general war itself. In any case, both the Administration and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were opposed to entering China, and very deliberately adopted the policy of "Limited War"; the Korean War of course was the first time the U.S. had done so, and indeed the policy was invented for the occasion, including the deliberate refraining from the resort to atomic weapons for fear of it provoking a general war with the Soviets. Finally, the US simply lacked the strength to advance beyond the Yalu River, and in the event, did not even possess the strength to hold it against the PVA.

One thing that the PRC leadership did know, or at least firmly believed, was that they could hold the UN Forces well south of the Yalu River at the very least. And of course, the PVA actually attempted to drive the UN Forces deep into the South, if not drive them out of Korea entirely. The PRC would not have dispatched the PVA to war in Korea if it genuinely feared an U.S.-led UN invasion of China; if it had, it would have massed its forces in Manchuria and deployed them for defence in order to receive a militarily superior enemy. That the UN Forces were not militarily superior, or at least not sufficiently such to afford them the ability to invade China, was implicitly understood by the PRC leadership and the PLA. Otherwise, dispatching the PVA to Korea would simply have been tossing good troops to the wolves. In the event, of course, the PVA nearly drove the UN out of Korea in late 1950/early 1951, and the UN proved able - and willing - to only seek to restore something like the original demarcation line between North and South.

[crobato]

It wasn't the PRC leadership that made the decision to intervene, if you define leadership as being the generals and anyone else high above who isn't Mao. Its Stalin goading Mao to do so, and Stalin probably planted the idea in Mao's head that if he didn't invade, China would be next on the US target list. Stalin also promised lots of support to Mao.

I like Norfolk's explanation but it may seem too rational and Mao doesn't act rational all the time and does not listen to his generals all the time either. In fact he tends to be more distrustful of them. Call it more as personality driven decisions rather than rational ones.

[Player 0]

^Just because the US wouldn't invade right after in a hypothetical scenario of winning the Korean war, doesn't mean the US wouldn't plan on developping Japan and Korea to use as a spring board to launch some future invasion of the PRC and the USSR's far east, who's to say that if success occurred in Korea and maybe Vietnam future generations of leaders might become over confident and choose to ignore the risks of a land war in Asia, much in the way the current neo-conservative administration has done now.

[Player 0]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7208903322333657947

Here's a facisnating documentary about the US service who after the war chose to defect to China.

[asif iqbal]

Actually throughout most of their history during the Cold War, NKorea was economically superior to the south, it's only within the last three decades with the fall of the USSR that things went bad for NKorea.
.

And at the end of the day the final result counts, North Korea may have been more advanced than the South in years gone by but today it langs behind because the IDEALOGY failed it! South was slow to strat but in the end with the right policy the suceed.

North Korea is behind because they follow Soviets which led to the collpase of the Soviet Union and today USA is world superpower because USSR idealogy was flawed it only work for short term not long term. South Korea is the winner in the end because of superior thinking by its goverment.


What do you base that off of exactly? The fact that the US didn't continue the war and try to force communists out of Korea? The US, if victorious in Korea with no direct intervention from the PRC or the USSR would've most likely attacked China next as China was a weak nation with a new government at that time, although it's unlikely they'd succeed that wouldn't mean they wouldn't be emboldened by their early successes and try to replicate it in all other parts of Asia where communism existed, it's the same reason why Hitler sought to attack the USSR after the conquest of Poland, why the Japanese wanted to take the entire ROC after they had taken Manchuria with no resistence by the local armed forces.

I dont understand how u can say this, everyone knows that if it wasnt for China then Japanese would have went onto Australia and India and even on to the middleast if China never fight against Japanese in WWII.

US knew this and China is a huge country Japanese failed to take it and it was very powerful nation and because of Chinese efforts finally Japanese surrendered, taking China is a crazy idea and US had no intensions to use military action against China, they already had the Soviets to worry about.

US just wanted to re-control Korea from the Soviets, it was a Soviet-US cold war which China was trapped into and China paid a price for no reason. To think that USA and its allies wanted to cross Yalu River is false they would never want to start a war with worlds most populated country it wasnt on the agenda and not even in the planning.

Once US reached Yaku river they stopped they never advanced they re-grouped and was starting to depart when China attacked. China is responsible for creation of North Korea that is a fact.

[Player 0]

And at the end of the day the final result counts, North Korea may have been more advanced than the South in years gone by but today it langs behind because the IDEALOGY failed it! South was slow to strat but in the end with the right policy the suceed.

North Korea is behind because they follow Soviets which led to the collpase of the Soviet Union and today USA is world superpower because USSR idealogy was flawed it only work for short term not long term. South Korea is the winner in the end because of superior thinking by its goverment.


I dont understand how u can say this, everyone knows that if it wasnt for China then Japanese would have went onto Australia and India and even on to the middleast if China never fight against Japanese in WWII.

US knew this and China is a huge country Japanese failed to take it and it was very powerful nation and because of Chinese efforts finally Japanese surrendered, taking China is a crazy idea and US had no intensions to use military action against China, they already had the Soviets to worry about.

US just wanted to re-control Korea from the Soviets, it was a Soviet-US cold war which China was trapped into and China paid a price for no reason. To think that USA and its allies wanted to cross Yalu River is false they would never want to start a war with worlds most populated country it wasnt on the agenda and not even in the planning.

Once US reached Yaku river they stopped they never advanced they re-grouped and was starting to depart when China attacked. China is responsible for creation of North Korea that is a fact.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3818

No, although the USSR suffered problems from poor leadership that was unwilling or unable to adapt economic policies due to conflicts with their ideology, though i'm sure its not nearly that simple, the DPRK suffers from problems largely due to the international situation with the fall of the USSR and being unable to effectively reform since 1. US and other developed nations refuse to lift sanctions against NKorea, this is part of the US' strategy with many third world countries, hoping tat through causing the economy problems the governemnt will whither and fall. 2. Although the Chinese have been trying to get the NKorean government to change their ways and open up to SKorean and Chinese investment and reforms, the NKorean government is a fiercely independent group, as shown by their ideology Juche, which places importance on political independence more than economic independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Invasion_of_North_Korea

Actually no they would've never been able to, Japan's small size, lack of natural resources and small population was a major hinderance to its imperialistic goals, that's the main reason why they lost to the US even though they were superior in the early part of the war.

As the US doesn't suffer from these problems and had a much bigger population than Japan, the government would've seen itself as having a far better chance to defeat China during this period, wanting to reinstall the KMT government, they would've seen this as a great oppertunity to further their goals of crushing communism in Asia as the Chinese government during that period was still new, suffering still from the damage done to it by Japan, and still fought to maintain control over the country from remaining KMT guerrilla forces. Though it wouldn't happen during the Truman period if he won the Korean war, it would give American politicians and military leaders the belief that they could effective remove the CCP with overt force, much in the same way the current administration's policy of regime change was influenced by earlier US success in Iraq and the general winning of the cold war.

It wasn't at the time because it wasn't considered feasible or because they lacked confidence in their plans and the popularity of the KMT, that doesn't mean future regimes wouldn't have been emboldened to, after all the US and it's allies didn't have any intention of overthrowing Saddam and occupying Iraq in the first Gulf War.

Actually the US general Macarthur believed that China should be bombed in order to defeat NKorea as NKorean troops were being supplied from there, and if they stopped at the Yalu that didn't mean they would expand the war right away to attack China, that would be foolish, what they would've done would be to establish Korea as a major US base with the proper infrastructure and industry to make it an effective spring board for US operations in northeast Asia, consilidating their positionand then attacking China later.

[adeptitus]

The Korean war era was a very different time, when the technology and conventional military gap between East and West wasn't as large. If you compare the battlefield casualties from WW2 & Korean War to Desert Storm, you can understand a commander's hesitation in widening a war against China and very possibly, the Soviet Union.

The era of 1950s-1960's was also a time when we weren't certain of the "west" or "capitalist" world's superiority over communism. The Soviet Union experienced post-WW2 reconstruction boom, and its scientific advances was head-to-head with the US in the space race.

I think around 1970s they started stagnating, and the USSR started playing Santa Claus to COMECON and other Soviet-friendly countries, providing them with subsidies trade and economic/military aid. This provided countries like Cuba and N. Kora with unhealthy economics to slug along over the next couple of decades on handouts. And once the handouts stopped, their economies collapsed.

Whatever heavy industrial development advantage North Korea had enjoyed in post-Korean War era was long-obsolete along with steel and coal economies by 1991.

The USSR basically bought money pits with their foreign policy. For those unfamiliar, a money pit is a hole in the ground that you dump money into and get little to nothing out of. To make things worse, these holes get deeper over time so no matter how much money you pour into it, it'd never be filled.

[hanqiang1011]

You don't know that. Despite all the revolutionary talks, it is common knowlege that Mao saw himself as a chinese emperor, if you read his poems it's so obvious, he compared himself with all the famous emperors in the past, including Gehgis Kahn, and find that he is better than all of them. He did everything he could to stay in power, killed everyone who could threat him.

It is only logical that he would pass his power to his son. Sending his son to korea war was a move to build up his son's reputation, Mao Anying was placed in the army headquarter of the chief commander general Peng De Huai, he was never near a real battle. He was only unlucky that one day when Peng left, american planes bombed the headquarter and killed him. General Peng was one of the best generals of PLA, but Mao punished him for the death of Anying, Peng died a miserable death.

Mao did not punished General Peng when the latter came back from Korea. In fact, he was plunged during the Cultural Revolution which happened many many years after the Korean War. After General Peng came back from Korean, he was made a Marshall in 1955.

From Wikipedia: "In June 1959, he tried to tell Chairman Mao at the Lushan Conference that the Great Leap Forward was a dramatic mistake. This statement would later cost him his life during the Cultural Revolution. Neither Mao nor Peng wanted a split but once Mao initiated the break with Peng, the whole Politburo and the Central Committee were bound to support Mao. They all quarreled with Peng, with Lin Biao the leader.

He was disgraced in 1959, in part because of his criticisms of Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward that went beyond what Mao considered legitimate. Mao accepted that there had been mistakes, including the 'backyard furnaces', but still saw the process as generally positive. Mao had even suggested that Peng write a criticism - whether this was a trap or whether Peng went too far is moot. Definitely, Mao started treating him as an enemy. As a consequence, he was removed from all posts and placed under constant supervision and house arrest in Chengdu, Sichuan; Lin Biao took over the post of Minister of Defense. Peng was eventually exiled, and shunned for the next 16 years of house arrest."

He was cleared of all charges and reaffirmed his contributions to the Chinese Revolution in 1978.

Definately one of the best field commanders of the PLA.

[peperez]

Mao did not punished General Peng when the latter came back from Korea. In fact, he was plunged during the Cultural Revolution which happened many many years after the Korean War. After General Peng came back from Korean, he was made a Marshall in 1955.

From Wikipedia: "In June 1959, he tried to tell Chairman Mao at the Lushan Conference that the Great Leap Forward was a dramatic mistake. This statement would later cost him his life during the Cultural Revolution. Neither Mao nor Peng wanted a split but once Mao initiated the break with Peng, the whole Politburo and the Central Committee were bound to support Mao. They all quarreled with Peng, with Lin Biao the leader.

He was disgraced in 1959, in part because of his criticisms of Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward that went beyond what Mao considered legitimate. Mao accepted that there had been mistakes, including the 'backyard furnaces', but still saw the process as generally positive. Mao had even suggested that Peng write a criticism - whether this was a trap or whether Peng went too far is moot. Definitely, Mao started treating him as an enemy. As a consequence, he was removed from all posts and placed under constant supervision and house arrest in Chengdu, Sichuan; Lin Biao took over the post of Minister of Defense. Peng was eventually exiled, and shunned for the next 16 years of house arrest."

He was cleared of all charges and reaffirmed his contributions to the Chinese Revolution in 1978.

Definately one of the best field commanders of the PLA.

Peng Dehuai MUST be amongst the greatest generals at History books. He defeated Mc Arthur and this is a major achivement.

Pepe