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swimmerXC
09-24-2005, 12:37 PM
Special report
The fighter jet stops mid-air, turns 360° and fires
By R. Prasannan/Moscow

A helicopter can stay still mid-air. But a fighter plane? No way. The laws of physics and jet propulsion don’t allow that.

Russian engineers have achieved just that. They are offering the plane to India, which is looking for 126 multi-role fighters like the US F-16 and F-18, the French Mirage-2000-V and Swedish Gripen.

"We have responded to India’s request for information, and are awaiting request for a proposal," said Col Mikhail Globenko, the general representative of Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG in India.

The aircraft, temporarily called MiG-29M (since it is based on the airframe of the tried and tested MiG-29) and soon to be christened MiG-35, is claimed to be the only aircraft in the world with a thrust vector control that allows it to stop mid-air and manoeuvre 360 degrees.

And it is not just aerobatics to impress kids. "The thrust vector gives the aircraft certain advantages in close combat," said Andrey Karasev, deputy general designer of MiG. "An aircraft that can abruptly change speed and direction does not allow enemy aircraft to leave its firing range."

The manoeuvre, called ‘Bell’, also enables the pilot to stop mid-air and thus prevent himself from entering the enemy plane’s missile firing range. And then he can turn around abruptly in any direction but still fire its missile at the enemy.

A conventional aircraft cannot turn around abruptly; it will have to jet forward, take a long loop and then close in towards the enemy, by which time the enemy would either be waiting for it or have fled. "This is important in close combat," said Alexei Fyodorov, general director of MiG corporation. "This enhances the safety of the pilot and the manoeuvrability of the aircraft. "The pilot can recover from any position with this technology. We have modified the aircraft control system to enable this."

Thrust vector control technology, called OVT in Russian and developed by the Klimov plant and integrated with the RD-33 engine that powered the MiG-29 fighters, was first flight-tested in 2003, but was shown to the public for the first time at the recent MAKS-2005 airshow in Moscow.

But how difficult is it for an IAF pilot, shorter and leaner than a Russian, to master the manoeuvre? "Your pilots are the best in the world," said the lanky Pavel Vlatsov, MiG Corporation’s senior test pilot and winner of ‘Hero of Russia’ honour. "An average pilot can master it in 60 sorties. Perhaps your pilots would need fewer sorties. They have an additional advantage: they are familiar with the MiG-29 cockpit."

The MiG-29 came to India in the 1990s off the Russian shelf as part of what many call the stupidest (not for what was bought, but for what was not bought) of all Indo-Russian war jet deals. The Soviets had offered to sell not only the aircraft but also the technology and licence to manufacture it in India, but India said it wanted only a few readymade planes. Within months of the delivery, the Soviet Union broke up and India faced a severe service and spares problem as no one in India had seen the inside of the aircraft except the cockpit.

The Russians say they can offer the MiG-29M in a Brahmos-like package to India—transfer technology for manufacture within India, and jointly develop the aircraft further and sell it to third countries. "It is a double jump over the Sukhoi deal, so to speak," said a senior official in Rosoboronexport, Russia’s defence export agency. The Sukhoi-30MKI also has thrust vector technology, but is limited to one direction. The technology installed in MiG-29M would allow 360 degree manoeuvrability. And, though the Sukhoi-MKI was developed jointly, there is no provision for joint marketing in the deal.

Indian pilots at the air show were impressed with the plane and its new technology, but "it all depends on what we ask for in terms of avionics, weaponry and of course service support," said an IAF test pilot. Conceded Fyodorov, "IAF has very stiff requirements. We are willing to integrate any system, as the user wants it." MiG officials expect India to ask for Israeli Elta radars, display components from France and weaponry of Russian origin. "We have not frozen the technology specifications," said Fyodorov.

Russians, whose 70 per cent of arms exports are to India and China, are hopeful of beating competition on four counts. One, the competitors are offering old technology which will last only a decade or two whereas the new technology should last at least till 2040. Two, Russia has no problem outsourcing 30 per cent or more of manufacturing to Indian companies. Three, Indian pilots are familiar with MiG-29. Four, among the competitors, Russia alone is offering joint development of a new aircraft and part-rights to sell the plane to third countries. "In future, all projects will be for mutual design, production and marketing," said Fyodorov.

Meanwhile, Russia has set up a service and spares base in India with the recently launched Rosoboronservice (India) Ltd. The company is a venture of Russian manufacturers and vendors and one Indian company.

"The activities of the company range from repairs and maintenance of systems to spare parts supply, training of personnel, etc. It is an initiative to improve product support and make them available at the doorstep of the Indian armed forces," said Commander V.G. Jayaprakasan, managing director of Rosoboronservice (India) Ltd.

Though the new company incorporates only naval vendors, it is expected to take up the responsibility for Russian origin assets of the Air Force, too, "making it Russia’s one-stop shop in India," said a Rosoboronexport official.

Russians concede they no longer enjoy a captive market in India. Israel, with which India had no defence relationship till a few years ago, has become the second largest supplier, beating France.

Now the US has made a dramatic offer of F-16 and F-18 fighters. "Yes, as exporters, we are a bit concerned about India diversifying its defence procurement sources," admitted Sergey Chemezov, director-general of Rosoboronexport. "But we still have the advantage. We always offer state-of-the-art technology, and you know it from the Sukhoi-MKI experience. At the last Paris air show, the Sukhoi-30 was the biggest draw. I doubt if the US will be so open and offering the latest. All the others may at best offer off-the-shelf products and their technology."

Russian officials expect that sale of readymade weapons to India may decline in the next few years, but are hopeful to carry on with a strategic partnership through joint development of weapon systems. Having signed a deal during the air show with Hindustan Aeronautics for licensed production in India of AL-551 aeroengines which will power India’s own intermediate jet trainer project, Russians are pitching strongly for a multi-role transport aircraft deal, currently roadblocked by differences on intellectual property rights protection.

"We have forwarded a draft inter-government agreement on this," said Chemezov. "But it may need legislation both in India and Russia."

But why pitch for India so much? Not only because India is a big buyer, but also because an Indian order is considered a certification for quality in the international market.

No wonder the Russians are pitching for joint development of a futuristic warplane with India. They have made presentations before the Indian defence ministry on this fifth-generation aircraft that may become a reality by 2020.

"The concept stage will start soon," said Fyodorov. "Some Russian companies are looking out for partners. Our preference is India."

Source (http://www.the-week.com/25sep04/currentevents_article1.htm)

looks like russians are putting up a fight with boeing




Vytautas
09-24-2005, 01:52 PM
Russian proves their engineering beeing superior once more.Speaking of witch hows the f15 with thrust vector engines coming along?Has it been canceled?

BrotherofSnake
09-24-2005, 02:43 PM
We did install thrust vectoring engines and foward mounted canards on an F-15 and named it the F-15 ACTIVE. It functioned as experimental advanced control technologies for integrated vehicles.

sumdud
09-24-2005, 04:30 PM
Isn't the F-15 ACTIVE also provided with canards?

swimmerXC
09-24-2005, 04:37 PM
it was tested by NASA, it reminds me of an ugly US version of the Flankers with canards, are the engines even 3D?
http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Vehicles/Images/F-15ACTIVE.jpg
vs
http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/PostWW2/Fighters/Soviet/other/MB-su35.jpg

MIGleader
09-24-2005, 06:43 PM
so they are not promoting the plane or the engine to china?? why not??
the su-35 looks alot better with canards than the f-15.

swimmerXC
09-24-2005, 09:39 PM
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - AUGUST 24, 2005

RSK bids for Indian requirement as MiG-29OVT makes first show flight
Piotr Butowski JDW Correspondent
Zhukovsky

The Russian Aircraft Corporation (RSK) MiG will submit its MiG-35 fighter aircraft to meet the Indian requirement for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA). Company director-general Aleksei Fedorov made the announcement during RSK's opening press conference at the Russian Aviation and Space Salon (MAKS), which was held from 16-21 August at Zhukovsky near Moscow.

The MiG-35 is a MiG-29M fighter with advanced radar, avionics and weapons as well as vectored-thrust engines.

With regard to advanced developments the experimental MiG-29OVT (deflectable thrust vector) with 3D-movable engine nozzles was one of the highlights of the MAKS 2005 air show, where it made its first flying appearance.

The MiG-29OVT is the sixth and last modified MiG-29M fighter (Type 9.15) and was made in 1991. The movable nozzles were installed in 2003 and the first flight with thrust vectoring occurred in August 2003.

Development work has been completed on the movable engine nozzles and they have been integrated with the modernised SDU-915-01 control system. This means that the aircraft is now capable of demonstrating its manoeuvrability at a lower altitude.

The MiG-29OVT made more than 50 flights with the movable thrust vector nozzles prior to the show.

According to RSK's chief designer of advanced MiG-29 versions, Nikolai Buntin, the testing of the movable nozzles is nearing completion and series production may be started soon. Five nozzles have been made, including two for ground tests, two installed on the MiG-29OVT and one stored as the reserve.

The movable nozzles of the RD-33OVT engines for the MiG-29OVT were developed by the Klimov engine design bureau in St Petersburg; the same design bureau developed the basic RD-33 engines.

The nozzles are designated KLIVT (Klimov Vectoring Thrust). In the KLIVT system, the nozzles are not totally movable (as in the case of the AL-31FP engine of the Su-30MKI), but only the rear section part of the nozzles. They can be moved in all directions (up to ±15º within the vertical plane and up to ±8º within the horizontal plane) and not only within the vertical plane as in the AL-31FP engine. The nozzles can be moved at any position of the engine throttle, including during full afterburn.

The MiG-29OVT will form the basis for RSK MiG's Indian M-MRCA bid
(Source: P Butowski)

tphuang
09-24-2005, 09:47 PM
your typical russian plane with great dogfighting capability.

swimmerXC
09-24-2005, 10:04 PM
you guys should see the MiG-29 OVT Demo Video, too bad all the links i find of it are down!!!
here a pic of its engine
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/7558/14qj.png

swimmerXC
09-24-2005, 10:11 PM
some pics of the MiG-29 OVT
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/7767/22sk.jpg
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/7473/33ew.jpg
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/112/40aw.jpg

swimmerXC
09-24-2005, 10:16 PM
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/5160/55ci.jpg
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/8605/64uv.jpg
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/9362/79si.jpg

swimmerXC
09-24-2005, 10:21 PM
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/2526/98oh.jpg
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/1885/80rg.jpg

SABRE
09-25-2005, 04:23 AM
We did install thrust vectoring engines and foward mounted canards on an F-15 and named it the F-15 ACTIVE. It functioned as experimental advanced control technologies for integrated vehicles.

Lockheed-Martin also tested F-16 with TVC. I think no canards were mounted. The program is known at F-16 VISTA. Even though LH-M called it "successful" US decided not to pursue it to the fighters.

MIGleader
09-25-2005, 11:44 AM
im feel so proud of my name...and mig.
so why isn;t mig offering the bird to china,or any other country?

swimmerXC
09-25-2005, 12:10 PM
you should feel pround, the MiG-21 is the most produced fighter in the world adn not to mention they made teh MFI, the only reason i would think they wouln't offer to china is 1. the MiG-35 is designed to counter the US sale of F-18 2. China would probably not buy it, since they are already in love with the Sukoi (remember when the russian showed china the MiG-29 and Su-27, they picked the flanker) 3. Personally i think china is not going to buy many fighters on the international market anymore, atleast until the embargo ends

MIGleader
09-25-2005, 05:28 PM
so why not offer the engine to china...or avionics?
i saw the mi9-29m2s cocpit, it looked sweet, almost as good as a french radar.

BrotherofSnake
09-25-2005, 06:17 PM
The Indians shouldn't pick the Mig-29. It never fared well in combat. So far, atleast a dozen or so have been shot down with no air to air victories. I wonder if this Mig will feature a fly by wire system.

FriedRiceNSpice
09-25-2005, 07:22 PM
Could the SU-37 (before it crashed) do the turn 360 in mid-air thing? How bout the F-22?

swimmerXC
09-25-2005, 07:36 PM
The Indians shouldn't pick the Mig-29. It never fared well in combat. So far, atleast a dozen or so have been shot down with no air to air victories. I wonder if this Mig will feature a fly by wire system.

do you know why the MiG-29 lost??? b/c they had shitty pilots! if the indian Migs get EL/M-2052 AESA your little F-16's are going to bve in trouble, maybe even with the Zhuk-MFE or NIIP Bars-29 'Barsik' ....

Could the SU-37 (before it crashed) do the turn 360 in mid-air thing? How bout the F-22?

yea the Su-37 could do that it's AL-37FU engines although not "fully" 3D (but still classfly as 3D b/c it can move side to side limited). the F-22? lol it's got a 2D engine, an RD-33OVT equiped plane can easily do circles around it! remember this russian are the best in the world at making fighters super maneuverable, if they can only make the avonics then they will truly be the best (of course they need a little more budget) GO MY RUSSIAN COMRADES!!!!

BrotherofSnake
09-25-2005, 07:37 PM
I don't think the F-22 can perform the mid air 360 thing.

vincelee
09-26-2005, 11:07 AM
the interesting thing is, PLAAF actually wanted the MiG-29, but had the Su-27 shoved up their collective ass by the CMC (the political one).

Gollevainen
09-26-2005, 11:28 AM
the interesting thing is, PLAAF actually wanted the MiG-29, but had the Su-27 shoved up their collective ass by the CMC (the political one).

It's the same thing whit Russian carrierbrone fighters. Althoug MiG-29K would be clearly more suitable to operating from Kuznetsov, The Sukhois political influence marked that Su-33 was selected instead. And if you count the export succses between MiG and Sukhoi in general the same pattern is evident.

MIGleader
09-26-2005, 05:35 PM
so is russia going to offer th new mig to china??

BrotherofSnake
09-26-2005, 06:35 PM
I doubt Russia would offer the Chinese this plane, since Chinese SU-30s are no where near the level of the MKI.

MIGleader
09-26-2005, 06:41 PM
I doubt Russia would offer the Chinese this plane since Chinese SU-30s are no where near the level of the MKI.

i dont get it... if the chinese planes are worse(the mkk isn't that much behind), why wouldn;t russia offer the plane or any of the engines or cocpit gear to china?

BrotherofSnake
09-26-2005, 07:02 PM
The MKI is way better than the MKK. The MKI incorporates better avionics, TVC, and the Bars radar.

Vanguard1688
09-26-2005, 07:09 PM
Because many components of the MKI's avionics are Japanese and not Russian to begin with.

swimmerXC
09-26-2005, 07:11 PM
The MKI is way better than the MKK. The MKI incorporates better avionics, TVC, and the Bars radar.

dude, i wouldn't say shit like that with full BS and not understanding, you too Migleader; the PLAAF could of got the same upgrade for the MKK as the MKI but they just didn't want it! :mad:
they question to you (MiGLeader but mostly to snake) "know it all" is why didn't the PLAAF get the full upgrade?

Vanguard1688
09-26-2005, 07:14 PM
They have different roles and different missions, MKK is designed as a maritime strke fighter, MKI is a Airsuperiority fighter. However, MKI is definitely a more complete system and is a multirole fighter.

tphuang
09-26-2005, 08:09 PM
no, the problem is that Russian would not sell something that good to China. I think that's why you see China is not buying any money sukhoi planes. China has been offered garbage and should not accept any more mkks.

sumdud
10-14-2005, 01:07 AM
China isn't very satified with the Flankers right now, even though it has more to do with the avonics than the plane itself.

But how will this thing stay mid-air (It stays mid-air with the nose up right?) or stop and suddenly turn away? (Comm'on, it's not a harrier, unless it is also equipped w/ side thrusters, I hope not. I got a plane coming....)

Wonder what you can do with it when you give it BARS or SMT. (This plane is definitely not a SMT, which has a pulp back. The manuvers will be hampered though and I believe the speed too.)

I like the design of the TVC. Instead of moving the entire thruster.(Like the Terminator.) You just move those flaps. But didn't they use the RD-93 engine? Why the 33?

Knarfo
10-14-2005, 08:57 AM
But how will this thing stay mid-air (It stays mid-air with the nose up right?) or stop and suddenly turn away? (Comm'on, it's not a harrier, unless it is also equipped w/ side thrusters, I hope not. I got a plane coming....)


You are right, it stays in mid air nose up thanks to its 1+ t/w ratio. I saw a su35 at an airshow some years ago. It performed a tailslide. It pulled up sharply, deaccelerated to practically standstill (it actually seemd to hang there for couple secs), slid down tail first, nose down and recoverd. The pilot, actuallly Mr Pugachev himself, also performed his famous cobra manouver. IIRC he also made a cobra like manouver in the middle of a steep turn. All this happend at fairly slow speeds. There was also a Su30 participating in the show so they did some duo flying too. Very nice show. The Flanker is an impressive sight, not just because of the stunts but also because it is a rather big aircraft. Actually I think the su30 was in reality a su27ub that was called su30 for marketing purposes (this was in ca 1995ish).


But didn't they use the RD-93 engine? Why the 33?

IIRC the rd-93 is for installation in single engine fighters.

MIGleader
10-14-2005, 04:29 PM
ok, the mkk is a ground attack plane. the mkk2 is the naval plane
the su-30 was not a su27ub, although it was designed off of it

ok, swimmer, the plaaf decided not to get mki/mkm upgrades since:
thye might not have been initially offered, china would have to persue the program itself. it may be a bit complicated, so they took the easy way
the did at least request the mkk2 and reinforced weight carrying ability.

the plaaf might not have desired something so radical. the mki is having many problems since its doing something the mk was not designed for.

if you notice, the plaaf has layed off buying flankers in hopes of more indegedous aircraft. and its also making radar and engine upgrades to the j-11s, so china is in fact persuing an upgrade, only indegedous. perhaps they will do the same for mkk later.

Knarfo
10-14-2005, 05:50 PM
ok, the mkk is a ground attack plane. the mkk2 is the naval plane
the su-30 was not a su27ub, although it was designed off of it

If you were refering to my post: I was talking about a specific aircraft, not su30s in general. Doubt about its true identity was mentioned in Air International years ago.
Picture and repeating of "doubt" can be found here
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Flanker/2410.html

603 is a rather famous aircraft. It has appeard in numerous mags.

More Flankers and nice close ups
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Flanker.html

more pics, including two from the airshow in Kauhava which I saw.
http://www.myaviation.net/search/search.php?view=&regnr=603

MIGleader
10-14-2005, 06:56 PM
If you were refering to my post: I was talking about a specific aircraft, not su30s in general. Doubt about its true identity was mentioned in Air International years ago.
Picture and repeating of "doubt" can be found here
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Flanker/2410.html

603 is a rather famous aircraft. It has appeard in numerous mags.

More Flankers and nice close ups
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Flanker.html

more pics, including two from the airshow in Kauhava which I saw.
http://www.myaviation.net/search/search.php?view=&regnr=603

the ub in the pic is exactly like the su-30 exept it has the diagnol tail fins.

Chairman Hu
10-14-2005, 10:47 PM
if you notice, the plaaf has layed off buying flankers in hopes of more indegedous aircraft. and its also making radar and engine upgrades to the j-11s, so china is in fact persuing an upgrade, only indegedous. perhaps they will do the same for mkk later.

ya know, thats actually better, since India ONLY get a license production, what if all 140 MKIs were shot down, India is ******!!!

As for China, if China can built on... then China is in a better place, since China can always replace them, India cant, and maybe China have the edge on this...

MIGleader
10-15-2005, 05:12 PM
ya know, thats actually better, since India ONLY get a license production, what if all 140 MKIs were shot down, India is FUCKED!!!

As for China, if China can built on... then China is in a better place, since China can always replace them, India cant, and maybe China have the edge on this...

well, i doubt any af on earth could shoot sown those 140 mkis, but if anyone bribes russia, then putin might b@#$tch slap india with a parts embargo.

jatt
10-15-2005, 05:45 PM
The SU-30MKK was the only choice for PLAAF. The Indians had choice of French and Isreali avonics. China didn't have the option. Those avonics make the biggest difference.

MIGleader
10-15-2005, 06:55 PM
The SU-30MKK was the only choice for PLAAF. The Indians had choice of French and Isreali avonics. China didn't have the option. Those avonics make the biggest difference.

last time i remeber, the israelis and french were the best friends of china. the french even go to measues of questionable legality to sell weapons to china

crazyinsane105
10-15-2005, 07:38 PM
last time i remeber, the israelis and french were the best friends of china. the french even go to measues of questionable legality to sell weapons to china

Yes, but the Israelis would have crumbled under American pressure. Just look what happened to the Phalcon deal: China got pretty trashed. The PLAAF doesn't want to take that risk again.

sumdud
10-15-2005, 09:47 PM
Trashed is one thing, going totally off topic is another!

IIRC the rd-93 is for installation in single engine fighters.??????

Isn't the latest MiG-29s powered by RD-93s?

tphuang
10-15-2005, 11:25 PM
The SU-30MKK was the only choice for PLAAF. The Indians had choice of French and Isreali avonics. China didn't have the option. Those avonics make the biggest difference.
hmm, the Malaysians are getting su-30mkm (similar to su-30mki) and the Algerians are too. Trust me, it's not so exclusive.

jatt
10-16-2005, 03:18 AM
I reffered to China not Malasia or Algeria. I know Malasia is getting the MKM which will use much of the same avonics and go to India for upgrades.

MIGleader
10-16-2005, 09:26 AM
I reffered to China not Malasia or Algeria. I know Malasia is getting the MKM which will use much of the same avonics and go to India for upgrades.

honestly, i would believe china has a conderable more amount of experince than malaysia, india, and algeria, which all took the coolest looking toy rather than think for future upgrades and maintenance.

tphuang
10-16-2005, 10:23 AM
I reffered to China not Malasia or Algeria. I know Malasia is getting the MKM which will use much of the same avonics and go to India for upgrades.
I meant if China really wanted something like su-30mki, it would probably get it. I'm pretty sure the Russians were offering su-35s to China back in the days. Remember, it was the first country to get su-27. But China seems more interested in getting something that is better at ground strikes, which didn't turn out to be true unfortunately.

Spartan00006
10-16-2005, 05:26 PM
are arms manufacturing and designing the biggest and most capital producing sectors in Russia's economy?

MIGleader
10-16-2005, 05:34 PM
are arms manufacturing and designing the biggest and most capital producing sectors in Russia's economy?

nah. its oil exporting

Spartan00006
10-16-2005, 05:58 PM
second biggest?

tphuang
10-16-2005, 08:37 PM
second biggest?
it's probably behind alcohol.

Knarfo
10-17-2005, 12:31 PM
Isn't the latest MiG-29s powered by RD-93s?

check MiGs homepage

http://www.migavia.ru/eng/production/?tid=1

Red not Dead
10-18-2005, 05:02 AM
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/2526/98oh.jpg
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/1885/80rg.jpg

That red Star snif...Anyway it's still remains a Mig, should wait for air-combat.

Red not Dead
10-18-2005, 05:05 AM
you should feel pround, the MiG-21 is the most produced fighter in the world adn not to mention they made teh MFI, the only reason i would think they wouln't offer to china is 1. the MiG-35 is designed to counter the US sale of F-18 2. China would probably not buy it, since they are already in love with the Sukoi (remember when the russian showed china the MiG-29 and Su-27, they picked the flanker) 3. Personally i think china is not going to buy many fighters on the international market anymore, atleast until the embargo ends


Have you seen those planes side by side. If not go see em and you'll understand why china picked the SU. The mig is soo tiny compared to the flanker. It can't perform all the Sukhoi roles. It's a specific "ground air ground" plane not a pure multi role.

Gauntlet
10-18-2005, 05:22 AM
Uhm...this so called "bell"-manouver (stop, 360degree mid-air) would most likely dont work with full weapon load and fuel, right? And it would bleed off so much energy...is it realy "worth" it?


About the Flanker's size. Heres some pics showing a Su-27UB compared to a RNoAF F-16B when the Ruskies visited my local air base. (I had to cut the pics realy much so I dont show the airbase innstallation, as its not legal to do so in Norway).

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/1056/untitled1copy4cs.jpg
http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/2470/untitled2copy7ld.jpg

sumdud
10-18-2005, 08:34 PM
check MiGs homepage

http://www.migavia.ru/eng/production/?tid=1
Thank you very much!

Uhm...this so called "bell"-manouver (stop, 360degree mid-air) would most likely dont work with full weapon load and fuel, right? And it would bleed off so much energy...is it realy "worth" it?Don't some people call it the "Cobra Loop"?

That Flanker is B-I-G. O.O

Knarfo
10-19-2005, 02:50 PM
Uhm...this so called "bell"-manouver (stop, 360degree mid-air) would most likely dont work with full weapon load and fuel, right? And it would bleed off so much energy...is it realy "worth" it?


You are correct, basically. I guess it could be done at really slow speeds even with full weapons and fuel. But I emphesis this, low speeds indeed. The spectacular stunts can not be performed at all at normal air combat speeds i.e high subsonic mach. This would naturally rip the wings off. For example the famous Pugachevs cobra is performed at either <600 km/h or <400 km/h, i do not remember which. The manoeuvres are simply too violent for higher speeds regardless of loadout. They would greatly overstress the aircrafts structures.

Regarding it worth in combat: It all depends. Normally no. Because it is generally suicide to go that slow. Also the new generation of missiles Python 4/5, IRIS-T, AIM-9X and asraam have very advanced seekers and coupled with HMS their no escape zones are large indeed. If for some very unlikely reason you end up in a prolonged and guns only fight you will end up going slow from all the hard manoeuvring and there these stunts will be useful.
Also it has been suggested that coming to stop would break the lock on of a Doppler radar. This probably happens, since the aircraft will at least temporarily have the same speed as the background earth, but when the plane accelerates again to a speed above the gate speed it should become visible again. If the radar is not operating in a look-down mode and there is no ground to filtered out I do not know how it will work.


Although this is a sales pitch, it is well worth reading to better understand the capabilities of modern missiles. They can not be outmanouvered (except with great luck) like in the movies or in games.
http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products/air-python-4.htm

MIGleader
10-19-2005, 04:15 PM
Thank you very much!

Don't some people call it the "Cobra Loop"?

That Flanker is B-I-G. O.O

the pugachev cobra, named after the pilot that performed it.