Most Capable Fighter

[FriedRiceNSpice]

What fighter is the most capable in service today? For this discussion, only aspects of a pure fighter will be taken into account. For example, naval attack and interdiction will not be relevant. Here is a list of possible choices: Su-35, Su-30 MKI, Mig-29, Eurofighter Tycoon, SAAB Gripen, Dessault Rafale, F-16, F-15, F/A-18, J-10.
For the sake of discussion, the F-22 and F-35 are not in service yet, so do bring them up.

[T-U-P]

i like the mig29, it's performance seems very stable.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

They have made a new Mig-29 with TVC.
It might be known as the Mig-35 in the future.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

I personally prefer the Flanker series to the Fulcrums. Flankers are bigger, heavier, and have a greater range.

China should consider building a J-10 TVC, or FC-1 TVC. At least add TVC to the J-XX.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

About J-XX and TVC:

Even if its supercruise, stealth, and sensory (such as advanced radar) abilities are slightly behind that of the F-22, do you think that TVC could give J-XX the decisive advantage over F-22? How effective do you guys think TVC is in modern air combat, in the age of BVR?

[T-U-P]

that link goes to the homepage of findarticles.com

[FriedRiceNSpice]

that link goes to the homepage of findarticles.com

Opps. That is weird... I'll delete it then.

[ger_mark]

Here is a list of possible choices: Su-35, Su-30 MKI, Mig-29, Eurofighter Tycoon, SAAB Gripen, Dessault Rafale, F-16, F-15, F/A-18, J-10.


1. F22 - far ahead
2. EF Half way between 3rd and F22
3. SU-35 or Rafale
4. Rafale or SU-35
5. F-15
6. F-16
7. F/A-18
8. Gripen
9. F-2
10. J-10

[FriedRiceNSpice]

1. F22 - far ahead
2. EF Half way between 3rd and F22
3. SU-35 or Rafale
4. Rafale or SU-35
5. F-15
6. F-16
7. F/A-18
8. Gripen
9. F-2
10. J-10

First off, F-22 would not be included in this discussion. For one, it is not yet operational.
Also, the F-2 is based on the F-16, so it will not be included as a seperate fighter. Here is my list:

1- EF 2000
2- Su-35
3- Rafale N
4- Gripen
5- Su-30 MKI
6- F-15E/J
7- Mig-29 TVC (aka Mig-35)
8- F-16 (Block 60s and F-2s)
9- J-10A
10- F/A-18 (the SuperHornet variant)

[IDonT]

First off, F-22 would not be included in this discussion. For one, it is not yet operational.
Also, the F-2 is based on the F-16, so it will not be included as a seperate fighter. Here is my list:

1- EF 2000
2- Su-35
3- Rafale N
4- Gripen
5- Su-30 MKI
6- F-15E/J
7- Mig-29 TVC (aka Mig-35)
8- F-16 (Block 60s and F-2s)
9- J-10A
10- F/A-18 (the SuperHornet variant)

Actually the F-22 has one or two operational squadron.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Actually the F-22 has one or two operational squadron.

Everyone here knows that the F-22 is by far the best. It is a whole generation ahead of all the other top fighters. For that reason, it was not included in this discussion.

[MIGleader]

s-47 would dominate the f-22 in close combat. but it's only a prototype.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

S-47 might've turned out into something if the plasma stealth technology had been ready.

[MIGleader]

its not too late. the russians already put plasma on the mig-29 m2 and many missles. There should be no problem for them to put it on the s-47.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

its not too late. the russians already put plasma on the mig-29 m2 and many missles. There should be no problem for them to put it on the s-47.

Really? I did not know that. At best, the technology is still experimental. The problem with plasma stealth is that objects cloaked by plasma could still be detected by measuring the distortion effect a plasma-cloaked object has on objects behind it.

[ger_mark]

plasma is used to reduce the air pressure in front of the plane, isnt it ?

[MIGleader]

no, plasma has an amazing ability to absorb and distort radar waves.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Plasma absorbs many forms of electromagnetic radiation, which includes radar.

[MIGleader]

it's also generated when space shuttles go in for landing. so back to our discussion...

what would the rankings be in 5-10 years?

[ger_mark]

oh i thought they make a magnetic field in front of the wings that the air molecules move faster and so the plane gets faster

but that must be something elso then ...

[SABRE]

About J-XX and TVC:

Even if its supercruise, stealth, and sensory (such as advanced radar) abilities are slightly behind that of the F-22, do you think that TVC could give J-XX the decisive advantage over F-22? How effective do you guys think TVC is in modern air combat, in the age of BVR?

How can you have advantage over some thing that you can not see, your SAMs can follow. F-22 is typical to Radars so J-XX will not have edge over but if you are asking tecnologicaly than the answer is NO. According LH-M F-22 is the most advance manuverable AirCraft & some say only Su-37 comes close to its turns.

I realy dont see the need of TVC. It is highly unlikely that TVC will come into any use during real time battle. If you want airforce which has a mission statement to perform in airshows 1st than defened the country than sure, TVC is good for you. For the same reason USAF rejected the F-16VISTA program saying it will only look good in air shows not battle but did went for it on F-22s.

Anyways back to topic. F-22 is now in service with USAF. It might reach 30+ in quantity by the end of the year. So the best fighter in service is F-22.

[MIGleader]

wtf!!! all the f-22 has is up and down tvc, while the s-47 has the reverse wings. it can fly in any direction without turning the nose.

yes. the f-22 has fired one missle at iraq.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

what would the rankings be in 5-10 years?

1- F-22 or J-XX
2- F-22 or J-xx
3- PAK FA
4- EF 2000
5- Su-37
6- JSF
7- MCA (from India, for those of you who don't know)
8- Rafale
9- Gripen
10- Mig 35 (Mig-29 TVC)

[MIGleader]

i doubt j-xx will be availible in 5-10 years

[FriedRiceNSpice]

wtf!!! all the f-22 has is up and down tvc, while the s-47 has the reverse wings. it can fly in any direction without turning the nose.

yes. the f-22 has fired one missle at iraq.


Reverse wings just makes a fighter super-maneuverable at low speeds. TVC will not allow it to fly any direction without turning the nose, unless a super-slow hover counts.

[rommel]

well, i think the new F-14D Supertomcat is the most capable fighter. The F-14D, delivered in 1990, was a major upgrade with F-110 engines, new APG-71 radar system, Airborne Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ), Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS) and Infrared Search and Track (IRST). Additionally, all F-14 variants were given precision strike capability using the LANTIRN targeting system, night vision compatibility, new defensive countermeasures systems and a new digital flight control system.The F-14D has visual and all-weather attack capability to deliver Phoenix and AMRAAM missiles as well as the M-61 gun and Sidewinder missiles for close in air-to-air combat. The F-14 has the capability to launch as many as six AIM-54 missiles simultaneously against an equal number of targets in all weather and heavy jamming environments.. The F-14D also has the LANTIRN targeting system that allows delivery of various laser-guided bombs for precision strikes in air-to-ground combat missions. The variable-geometry wings give very good manoverability at every speed. The F-14D also has the capablity of supercruise at Mach 1.2, for this last one, i'm not sure, i only heard, maybe someone can tell me ??

[FriedRiceNSpice]

well, i think the new F-14D Supertomcat is the most capable fighter. The F-14D, delivered in 1990, was a major upgrade with F-110 engines, new APG-71 radar system, Airborne Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ), Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS) and Infrared Search and Track (IRST). Additionally, all F-14 variants were given precision strike capability using the LANTIRN targeting system, night vision compatibility, new defensive countermeasures systems and a new digital flight control system.The F-14D has visual and all-weather attack capability to deliver Phoenix and AMRAAM missiles as well as the M-61 gun and Sidewinder missiles for close in air-to-air combat. The F-14 has the capability to launch as many as six AIM-54 missiles simultaneously against an equal number of targets in all weather and heavy jamming environments.. The F-14D also has the LANTIRN targeting system that allows delivery of various laser-guided bombs for precision strikes in air-to-ground combat missions. The variable-geometry wings give very good manoverability at every speed. The F-14D also has the capablity of supercruise at Mach 1.2, for this last one, i'm not sure, i only heard, maybe someone can tell me ??

I had thought that the whole project was cancelled. Does any have any sources concerning the F-14D SuperTomcat?

[rommel]

there's 53 F-14D Supertomcat currently in service. VF-2 Bounty Hunters, VF-31 Tomcatters, VF-213 Black Lions and VF-101 Grim Reapers (got some B too)

[MIGleader]

great fighter, but the tomcat is getting old. it has no stealth anyways.

[rommel]

u don't need stealth with AIM-54C Phoenix... u got so much of range that u can destroy the ennemy plane before even entering the other firing range. It's powerful radar make it as good as a small AWAC, so it could even detec some stealth plane, i think.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

u don't need stealth with AIM-54C Phoenix... u got so much of range that u can destroy the ennemy plane before even entering the other firing range. It's powerful radar make it as good as a small AWAC, so it could even detec some stealth plane, i think.

To detect stealth planes, you have to use triangulation. In other words, you need to have two or more radars directed in the direction of the plane coming from two different angles at the same time in other to notice a stealth fighter.

I have heard that Iran used F-14s as mini-AWACs in the Iran-Iraq war. Would it be possible for China to do the same with the J-8II or Russia with the Mig-31?

[rommel]

To detect stealth planes, you have to use triangulation. In other words, you need to have two or more radars directed in the direction of the plane coming from two different angles at the same time in other to notice a stealth fighter.

well, the F-14 are always used in pair of 2, the Chinese need some better radar equipment, the only other aircraft i know that got this ability is on the Su-30 and variants. It can designate 10 target and direct 4 Su-27 to intercept them. I don't know if the Su-33 or Su-35 have this abilty, maybe yes.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

well, the F-14 are always used in pair of 2, the Chinese need some better radar equipment, the only other aircraft i know that got this ability is on the Su-30 and variants. It can designate 10 target and direct 4 Su-27 to intercept them. I don't know if the Su-33 or Su-35 have this abilty, maybe yes.

The J-8 has the potential to carry large radars, so if the Chinese develop better radars then maybe they can use the J-8 as mini-AWACs. The Flanker series also can carry large radars, but so far no one has developed a Flanker for the AWACs role.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Also, to detect a stealth fighter, the radar must be bouncing off the plane at two different angles.

[MIGleader]

The J-8 has the potential to carry large radars, so if the Chinese develop better radars then maybe they can use the J-8 as mini-AWACs. The Flanker series also can carry large radars, but so far no one has developed a Flanker for the AWACs role.

it's called the su-30 and it's slar datalink

[Azn boy]

What fighter is the most capable in service today? For this discussion, only aspects of a pure fighter will be taken into account. For example, naval attack and interdiction will not be relevant. Here is a list of possible choices: Su-35, Su-30 MKI, Mig-29, Eurofighter Tycoon, SAAB Gripen, Dessault Rafale, F-16, F-15, F/A-18, J-10.
For the sake of discussion, the F-22 and F-35 are not in service yet, so do bring them up.

1.F-22
2.Eurofighter Typhoon
3.Dessault Rafale
4.SAAB Gripen
5.Su-35
6.Su-30mki
7.J-10C :)
8.F-15
9.F-16
10.F/A-18

[FriedRiceNSpice]

1.F-22
2.Eurofighter Typhoon
3.Dessault Rafale
4.SAAB Gripen
5.Su-35
6.Su-30mki
7.J-10C :)
8.F-15
9.F-16
10.F/A-18


I like how right above you put "1. F-22," you have me quoted saying: For the sake of discussion, the F-22 and F-35 are not in service yet, so do bring them up. Also, the J-10C is not in service yet, and if it was It'd be ahead of Su-30MKI and SAAB Gripen.

[MIGleader]

no one knows how j-10 c will perform.

f-22 is udoubtedly the most capable combat aircraft ever.
afterwords, wars would be fought using uavs and pilots would be a thing of the past.

[tphuang]

Actually the F-22 has one or two operational squadron.
I thought they are not done yet? What about all the articles that said F-22 is behind and they wanted to scratch the program?

[MIGleader]

i highly doubt they would cancel f-22, but i see more cuts along the way...

[FriedRiceNSpice]

i highly doubt they would cancel f-22, but i see more cuts along the way...

Currently, they don't need large numbers of the F-22 because there is no need for large numbers of such an advanced and expensive fighter. However, if J-XX comes out and becomes much better than all other US fighters, than I can assure you more F-22s will be built. Out of an initial order for 600, only 120 is now being ordered.

[BrotherofSnake]

180 are being made.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

180 are being made.

That is still far less than the original 600 that were to be ordered. I wonder if this thread will be closed by Webmaster... After all, we are to talk about only Chinese military aviation here...

[BrotherofSnake]

I know most of the Chinese AF is obsolete and they have downgraded Flankers.

[ger_mark]

1st day and webmaster closes everything :'(

who is webmaster btw? ^^

[WebMaster]

Not everything but only stuff which is not relevant to the Sino/Chinese Defence Forums. We want to attract serious posters and professionals and if people start trashing this place and discuss europe instead of China Defence, we would have issues and problems. Besides, this is NOT A CHAT ROOM and that is why I am asking, please avoid posting one line replies. Discussion boards are meant to discuss and debate not Chat and small talk... the forum is for SINODefence.com so discuss topics related to THAT!

[ger_mark]

sure but as u can see if u read the other forum almost every topic compares chinese stuff with foreign stuff

and i still dont know who u are :rolleyes:

[WebMaster]

Comparing is one thing but when its outright topic about some other Country than it needs to be taken care of... you know? :)

We are not on the other forum anymore and we are trying to establish a professional image for a professional website (sinodefence.com).

[Obcession]

I think you (webmaster) should move all the topics that aren't strictly about China to the World Armed Forces section.

[BrotherofSnake]

I thought they are not done yet? What about all the articles that said F-22 is behind and they wanted to scratch the program?[/

The raptor is staying and is already operational with the first delivered to Langley AF base.

[Totoro]

As far as I know over 40 Raptors, not counting test models, are already produced. It was an early series on which they also did some additional testing but they have started to assign them to USAAF squadrons this year. With ongoing production, by this year's end there may be close to 50 Raptors serving in USAAF. Full production will be 3 F22s a month.

Also, numerous sources cite that J10 is in service, in 20-40 numbers.

As for F14D, yes it's mighty capable but A) Phoenixes have been put out of service, all F14Ds now use Amraams and B) by 2007 even the last Tomcat will be put out of service, as well. It may not look like a smart move on USN's behalf but i guess that's politics/budget constraints for you. Plane's time has come and passed.

Finally, I don't understand why most of you put Superhornet behind f16 and the like. Yes, it's a slow and not as manouverable aircraft and it'd get creamed by most in close combat but it has great avionics and one helluva radar. In BVR combat I'd definitely put it above even newest f16 models.

[chinawhite]

here is something you should know.

5 tips for a stealthy aircraft


1) Low RCS due to shape. This is probably the most simple modern way to make an aircraft stealthy. All new aircraft make use of this, by taking away right angles, and reducing the reflective surface of aircraft.

internal arms bays

2) Low RCS due to materials. THIS is the most important aspect. It is what seperates the US aircraft from the rest of the world. The thing is, there is absolutely NO WAY TO GET AROUND THE PRICE. It is simply the most expensive part of making a stealth aircraft, and also the most important. The materials and manufacturing techniques are just very expensive. This is what drives the price of stealth aircraft up. Now, if the US had so many problems building the Raptor after using these techniques on the F-117 and B-2 (not to mention other stealth aircraft that never even made it into service), how does China realistically keep the price equal to (much less under) that of the Raptor with no prior experience?


3) Thermal Stealth. Again, they could change the aircraft, but how much money are they going to sink into this aspect of the aircraft. It has no indications of any kind of thermal reduction, much less heat reduced engine configuration with a cooling system while also allowing for 2D thrust vectoring.

4) accoustic stealth. The engines are not in any way designed to dampen a sonic boom (and niether are the Raptors from what I know) so this aplies to niether aircraft.

5) Visual stealth. Paint schemes can cover this of course, but so can shape (as the BOP proves with it's shadow reducing shape). Niether aircraft shows any sign of this, and I doubt very much that China would invest so much money into this when they have yet to come out with a single aircraft based on radar stealth.

[sumdud]

The F-14D Bombcat is in fact in existent, but being booted out by the Hornets.
I don't know about the supercruise, but I amd not surprised if it does. (I can supercruise on my mig-29 simmulator. :) )

I think the most capable combat planes are in an order similar to this:
Rafale
F-15
Mirage 2000
Flankers
F-16
Panavia Tornado
F-18
JAS-39
MiG-29
J-10
F-4
F-14

[tphuang]

you need to be more specific with the variants of each of the planes you list.

for example:
su27m (su-35) > j-10 > su-27sk
mig29OVT > J-10 > mig29 basic

[SABRE]

What fighter is the most capable in service today? For this discussion, only aspects of a pure fighter will be taken into account. For example, naval attack and interdiction will not be relevant. Here is a list of possible choices: Su-35, Su-30 MKI, Mig-29, Eurofighter Tycoon, SAAB Gripen, Dessault Rafale, F-16, F-15, F/A-18, J-10.
For the sake of discussion, the F-22 and F-35 are not in service yet, so do bring them up.

I once asked similar question from an military aviation expert. He said thats the most ediotic question he has ever herd. He told me to divide the groups of the fighters. Not all are same. (that was ediotic of him since i was asking best fighter all round :D )

Air Superiority Fighters:

1. Sukhoi Series (Su-30,35,37)
2. EF-2000 ( & its not Tycoon its Typhoon :D )
3. F-22
4. F-15
5. F-14

Some of these AirSuperiority fighters have good ground attack capabilities e.g: Sukhois but their classification does not change.

MultiRoles:

1. F-16
2. MiG-29/35
3. Mirage2000 Series (2000,2000-5,2000-9, 2000-5 mark2)
4. JAS-39 Gripen
5. F-35

The multiroles have good air combat capability but they do no match to the air superiority fighters even though they can smoothly combat out them.

Now your question should be. Which is best multirole fighter & which is best Air Superiority fighter.

My opinion is:

MultiRole = F-16
AS = F-15.

But if u r asking best all around than its F-16s.

Reason: Proven in Air to Air proven in Air to Ground department. The most produced fighter, the most upgraded fighter & only fighter which has gone through so many phases of upgradings that its generation keeps changine. Started 2.5 gen (with Block 10) & now 4.5th Gen (with Block 60E/F).

[walter]

What fighter is the most capable in service today? For this discussion, only aspects of a pure fighter will be taken into account. For example, naval attack and interdiction will not be relevant. Here is a list of possible choices: Su-35, Su-30 MKI, Mig-29, Eurofighter Tycoon, SAAB Gripen, Dessault Rafale, F-16, F-15, F/A-18, J-10.
For the sake of discussion, the F-22 and F-35 are not in service yet, so do bring them up.

If you are including J-10 and EF Typhoon, then it is only fair to include the F-22. The typhoon is still undergoing operational evaluation, as is the J-10, and the F-22 will be officially operational early 2006. Of course it is a more interesting discussion ommiting the F-22, I just wanted to point out the operational status of those other two in comparison.

[walter]

The F-14D also has the capablity of supercruise at Mach 1.2, for this last one, i'm not sure, i only heard, maybe someone can tell me ??

some fighters can supercruise in a clean configuration (ie no weapons load). I do not know if this is true for the F-14. However, this is useless for combat, unless it has fired all its missles and is turning to run.

[tphuang]

I once asked similar question from an military aviation expert. He said thats the most ediotic question he has ever herd. He told me to divide the groups of the fighters. Not all are same. (that was ediotic of him since i was asking best fighter all round :D )

Air Superiority Fighters:

1. Sukhoi Series (Su-30,35,37)
2. EF-2000 ( & its not Tycoon its Typhoon :D )
3. F-22
4. F-15
5. F-14

Some of these AirSuperiority fighters have good ground attack capabilities e.g: Sukhois but their classification does not change.

MultiRoles:

1. F-16
2. MiG-29/35
3. Mirage2000 Series (2000,2000-5,2000-9, 2000-5 mark2)
4. JAS-39 Gripen
5. F-35

The multiroles have good air combat capability but they do no match to the air superiority fighters even though they can smoothly combat out them.

Now your question should be. Which is best multirole fighter & which is best Air Superiority fighter.

My opinion is:

MultiRole = F-16
AS = F-15.

But if u r asking best all around than its F-16s.

Reason: Proven in Air to Air proven in Air to Ground department. The most produced fighter, the most upgraded fighter & only fighter which has gone through so many phases of upgradings that its generation keeps changine. Started 2.5 gen (with Block 10) & now 4.5th Gen (with Block 60E/F).
you have way too much confidence in the su-27 series. EF-2000 and F-22 and even F-15 will destroy it.