F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

[crazyinsane105]

F/A-22 RAPTOR ADVANCED TACTICAL FIGHTER AIRCRAFT, USA

The F/A-22 Raptor advanced tactical fighter aircraft is being developed for service with the US Air Force from the year 2005. The USAF requirement is for a fighter to replace the F-15, with emphasis on agility, stealth and range. By 1990 Lockheed Martin, teamed with Boeing and General Dynamics, had built and flown the demonstration prototype aircraft, designated YF-22. The first F-22 fighter aircraft was unveiled in April 1997 and was given the name Raptor. In September 2002, the USAF decided to redesignate the aircraft F/A-22 to reflect its multi-mission capability in ground attack as well as air-to-air roles.

The decision to proceed to low-rate initial production (LRIP) was authorised in August 2001 and Lockheed Martin has delivered 49 aircraft under LRIP contracts. Initial Operational Test and Evaluation began in April 2004 and was successfully completed in February 2005. The F/A-22 entered full-rate production in April 2005 and is planned to achieve initial operating capability by December 2005. The USAF has a total requirement of 381 aircraft but funding may not be made available for more than 180. The first operational wing of F/A-22 Raptors will be based at Langley AFB in Virginia, eventually replacing F-15 Eagle aircraft.

During flight tests, the F/A-22 has demonstrated the ability to 'supercruise', flying at sustained speeds of over Mach 1.5 without the use of afterburner.

Lockheed Martin has put forward proposals for a fighter-bomber version of the F-22, the FB-22, which will have larger delta wings, longer range and the ability to carry an external weapons payload of 4,500kg and total weapons payload of 15,000kg.

DESIGN

The F/A-22 construction is 39% titanium, 24% composite, 16% aluminium and 1% thermoplastic by weight. Titanium is used for its high strength-to-weight ratio in critical stress areas, including some of the bulkheads, and also for its heat-resistant qualities in the hot sections of the aircraft. Carbon fibre composites have been used for the fuselage frame, the doors, intermediate spars on the wings, and for the honeycomb sandwich construction skin panels.
COCKPIT

The cockpit is fitted with hands-on throttle and stick control (HOTAS). The cockpit has six color liquid crystal displays. The Kaiser Electronics Projection Primary Multifunction Display provides a plan view of the air and ground tactical situation including threat identity, threat priority and tracking information.

Two displays provide communication, navigation, identification and flight information. Three secondary displays show air and ground threats, stores management and air threat information.

A BAE SYSTEMS head-up display (HUD) shows target status, weapon status, weapon envelopes and shoot cues. A video camera records data on the HUD for post-mission analysis.
WEAPONS

A variant of the M61A2 Vulcan cannon is installed internally above the right air intake. The General Dynamics Linkless Ammunition Handling System holds 480 rounds of 20mm ammunition and feeds the gun at a rate of 100 rounds per second.

The F-22 has four hardpoints on the wings, each rated to carry 2,270kg, which can carry AIM-120A AMRAAM or external fuel tanks. The Raptor has three internal weapon bays. The main weapons bay can carry six AMRAAM AIM-120C missiles or two AMRAAM and two 1,000lb GBU-32 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM). The bay is fitted with the EDO Corp. LAU-142/A AVEL AMRAAM Vertical Ejection Launcher which is a pneumatic-ejection system controlled by the stores management system. Raytheon AMRAAM air-to-air missile is an all-weather short to medium range radar-guided fire and forget missile, with a range of 50nm. The side bays can each be loaded with one Lockheed Martin/Raytheon AIM-9M or AIM-9X Sidewinder all-aspect short-range air-to-air missile.

The GPS-guided, Boeing Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) is being integrated on the F/A-22. Up to eight SDBs could be carried.
RADAR

The AN/APG-77 radar has been developed for the F/A-22 by the Electronic Sensors and Systems Division of Northrop Grumman and Raytheon Electronic Systems. The radar uses an active electronically scanned antenna array of 2,000 transmitter/receive modules, which provides agility, low radar cross-section and wide bandwidth. Deliveries of the AN/APG-77 began in May 2005.
COUNTERMEASURES

The aircraft's electronic warfare system includes a radar warning receiver and a BAE Systems Information & Electronic Warfare Systems (IEWS) (formerly Lockheed Martin Sanders) missile launch detector.
NAVIGATION AND COMMUNICATIONS

The TRW CNI communications, navigation and identification system includes an intra-flight datalink, joint tactical information distribution system (JTIDS) link and an identification friend or foe (IFF) system. Boeing is responsible for mission software and avionics integration. The aircraft has a Northrop Grumman (formerly Litton) LTN-100G laser gyroscope inertial reference, a global positioning system and a microwave landing system.
ENGINE

The F-22 is powered by two Pratt and Whitney F119-100 engines. The F119-100 is a low bypass after burning turbofan engine providing 156kN thrust. The F119 is the first fighter aircraft engine equipped with hollow wide chord fan blades which are installed in the first fan stage. Thrust vectoring is controlled by a Hamilton Standard dual redundant full authority digital engine control (FADEC). The FADEC is integrated with the flight control computers in the BAE Systems Flight Controls vehicle management system.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f22/

[crazyinsane105]

Now, let us begin our discussion. The F-22 is the biggest threat to the PLAAF and in general, the Chinese military. Is there anything that the PLAAF can do to counter this plane (assuming that Congress decides to allow the production of several squadrons of it)? I am trying to find an article in which I read that a squadron of F-15's (probably the E versions) are trying to "defeat" the F-22. So far, they have had no luck. :eek:

[Malizia]

SU-27 and evolutions (SU-30 Mki, SU-37..) and j-10 could perhaps (?) challenge f-22.
Prototype SU-47 Berkut could be the real response if exported to China next years...
China works on a future native stealth fighter....we'll see later !
Virtually, SU-30 mki, SU-37, Berkut and the french phenomena called Rafale could challenge the f22s. F22 is stealth and highly maneuvrable ; Rafale and modern russian warbirds are higly maneuvrable and equipped with highly advanced radar (Rafale proved it) enable to detect stealth us planes in security distance (enough to shoot first the F22 ?!?).
US strategy is developing costly stealth techology and Europeans/Russiand is developing advanced radar (cheaper than steath techno). Highly maneuvrability is the common challenge.
China could evolve in the Rafale/Su way, couldn't it ?

[IDonT]

This is from an Airforce Magazine article

By Laura M. Colarusso
Times staff writer

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. — Among the F/A-22’s opponents, there’s none more determined than Maj. Robert Garland, whose job is to beat the Raptor, the Air Force’s most advanced fighter jet.

It’s a tough job. He flies an F-15C.

He’s never won.

Garland and his F-15 buddies, assigned to the 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron, fly against the Raptor to find its weaknesses and help develop the tactics to employ the Air Force’s newest fighter jet.

“The Raptor is going to win, but that’s what it’s designed for,” said Garland, who is also an F/A-22 pilot. “It doesn’t matter, really, how experienced we are or if we have a good day or a bad day. The Raptor is going to succeed.”

Even though they rarely win, the pilots of the 422nd radiate confidence. They say they use each sortie to improve their skills in the F-15. They’re on a mission to prove themselves against the aircraft the Air Force has billed as the best in the world because of its speed, stealth and integrated avionics.

“When I go out in an F-15 and I fight a guy in a Raptor, if a guy does a good job in that airplane, there’s no chance that I have to defeat him,” Garland said.

It sounds discouraging, and these pilots talk at length about being throttled, kicked in the face and frustrated by the Raptor. But Garland and the others who train against it say the fight’s not supposed to be fair.

The training missions almost always start out with the Raptor in a defensive position, because otherwise it would be a “waste of gas,” said Maj. Robert Novotny, another F-15 pilot with the 422nd.

When the F/A-22 is on the defensive and the fight is taking place in a visual maneuvering environment — meaning the aircraft are in close, so everybody can see each other — the F-15s have more of a chance.

These fights are violent, said Lt. Col. Art McGettrick, a former F-15 pilot who now solely flies the F/A-22 with the 422nd. The pilots pull 9 Gs, perform jarring maneuvers and generally try to beat each other up when the F-15s and the F/A-22 fight, because they are trying to wring out the Raptor to find any deficiencies.

The pilots prepare for the mental and physical demands of dogfighting, Garland said. They study tactics constantly and try to learn from the mistakes highlighted in the mission debriefings. The pilots also train like professional athletes, lifting weights and running several miles a week, he said.

Once in a while, if the scenario is set up right, Novotny has been able to shoot the Raptor. Two new technologies, the AIM-9X missile and the Helmet Mounted Cueing System, have leveled the playing field by giving the F-15s the ability to shoot off-bore sight shots.

Pilots once had to maneuver so the noses of their jets were pointing at the enemy. Now they can simply look at the target and shoot, shaving seconds off the targeting process.

But if the mock battle starts from a distance, the F/A-22 is in its element, and there is little an F-15 can do against it, according to Garland. The Raptor’s radar and standoff weapons allow it to shoot enemy aircraft before they even know the Raptor is there, McGettrick said.

Yet they keep trying. Novotny has never gunned down a Raptor, the ultimate in air-to-air combat. But when asked whether he’s given up fighting the Raptor, Novotny’s enthusiasm for the mission is clear.

“Hell no,” he says, pounding the table. “I love it.”

Novotny says sometimes his goal is to just survive for 60 to 120 seconds.

“Nobody wants to get beat,” said Novotny, who has flown about 1,700 hours in the F-15. “It’s a very frustrating fight for me, because I almost never, ever, ever see, hear [or] smell the Raptor, and I’m dead. So, it’s a really boring ride for me, because I get killed all the time.”

[IDonT]

SU-27 and evolutions (SU-30 Mki, SU-37..) and j-10 could perhaps (?) challenge f-22.
Prototype SU-47 Berkut could be the real response if exported to China next years...
China works on a future native stealth fighter....we'll see later !
Virtually, SU-30 mki, SU-37, Berkut and the french phenomena called Rafale could challenge the f22s. F22 is stealth and highly maneuvrable ; Rafale and modern russian warbirds are higly maneuvrable and equipped with highly advanced radar (Rafale proved it) enable to detect stealth us planes in security distance (enough to shoot first the F22 ?!?).
US strategy is developing costly stealth techology and Europeans/Russiand is developing advanced radar (cheaper than steath techno). Highly maneuvrability is the common challenge.
China could evolve in the Rafale/Su way, couldn't it ?

The F-22 is a generation ahead of its nearest competitors.
The SU - 27 family and the Rafale barely beats the F-15 C (argueable).
The Berkut, Mig 1.44 are all technology demostrator.
J-10 will probably be as good as the early model F-16. The JXX is still stuck at models with no engine, avionics, or for that matter, airframe.

Stealth+Supercruise+superior avionics = First look first kill capability.
Nothing comes close.

[bd popeye]

Stealth+Supercruise+superior avionics = First look first kill capability.

Yeah baby. :cool: You are so right. :D While other countries have ll sorts of weapons in development the US actually has the F-22 Raptor in production. Not on the tip of someones ink pen.

The only thing I do not like about the aircraft is how many the US will build. The orignal plan was to build 381+. Now it looks like 181+. I tried to find some sort of verfication on how many would be built but could not. I don't think the US Congress has decided on a final number yet. It probaly depends on future US DoD expenditures. A truel awesome aircraft.

http://www.ragjr.com/f22.jpg

[bd popeye]

What does the PLAAF have to counter the F/A-22 ? Nothing at the moment. Perhaps the PLAAF has a "skunk works" somewhere developing a fighter like this? Anyone think so?????

[IDonT]

Yeah baby. :cool: You are so right. :D While other countries have ll sorts of weapons in development the US actually has the F-22 Raptor in production. Not on the tip of someones ink pen.

The only thing I do not like about the aircraft is how many the US will build. The orignal plan was to build 381+. Now it looks like 181+. I tried to find some sort of verfication on how many would be built but could not. I don't think the US Congress has decided on a final number yet. It probaly depends on future US DoD expenditures. A truel awesome aircraft.

181 numbes will grow. There are plans for a strike F-22B (the F-15E's replacement) that is slated to replace the F-15E and F-117.

Even at such low numbers, these planes are very formidable especially if used in conjunction with E-3 and F-15C.

Check this scenario:
PLAAF is operating an AEW plane in the East China Sea to support its Invasion of Taiwan. This AWACS is escorted by a squadron of J-11. USAF base in Okinawa wants to take it out.

After locating where the AEW's is, USAF sends in 6 F-15C on an intercept course for the AEW. Seeing this, the radar operators vectors in its escorting J-11 to intercept the F-15Cs. Simultaneously, 2 F-22 races towards the AEW at above Mach speeds undetected by radar. 1 F-22 is 30 miles ahead of the other. The tail end F-22 lights up its radar and acquires the AEW, the lead F-22 fires an AMRAAM and uses radar firing solution from the other F-22. Radar operators, notice a slight radar signiture detected by passive radar, could it be a radar has locked on to them? But the active radar does not show anything.. Moments later, the AEW explodes. F-22 heads towards Okinawa at high speeds

Without AEW, the J-11 has lost their situational awareness and are ambushed by the F-15C.

[MIGleader]

the f-22 is not the biggest threat to thr plaaf. by the time of the taiwan war(if any) the u.s will only have a few f-22, mainly deployed to the mainland, maybe iraq. puting an f-22 in guam or japn would be seen as a direct threat to china and would not be allowed. the f-22 is also not carrier able.
a j-11 with ram, tvc, and bars will take on any u.s fighter with ease.

[Raven]

Hey All,

I think that the most important fighter to the PLAAF aand PLAN was the F-14D. But since this wonderful aircraft and it's long range AIM-54C are being retired, the F22 is the aircraft to beat in a BVR fight. The greatest weakness from a fighter standpoint of the F22 is the cost of them. I think at the moment there will be one Wing of these wonderful aircraft. I think there may end up being more but at the current cost, I doubt there will be a plane for plane replacement of the F-15C. The F-14 and F-15 are at the moment America's best fighter aircraft. The F14D is extremely deadly at all ranges plus can carry air to ground weapons. This makes the F-15C the only pure fighter in the USAF arsenal. The F15E is an excellent strike aircraft but I am not sure how it would do on self escort strike missions like the F-14B/D,F/A-18C or F/A-18E/F. While the SU35 and SU30MKI,MKK,and the other variants are great birds, I doubt they would do well against the F-22. As for the new non-US Aircraft, I like the Rafale. But we have to see what each aircraft can do.

To MiG Leader, I disagree. F22s would not need to be deployed to Iraq for any situation in that nation. The lack of an air to air threat means that the standard attack aircraft(A10S,F16s and USMC F18s) would be backed up by current deployments of F15Cs and USN/USMC F18s flying from USN CV/Ns.
Be aware that it is an old USAF capability to rapid deploy fighter aircraft from CONUS directly to the battle area non stop. USAF F15Cs flew directly to Saudi Arabia armed with full war loads prepared to fight their way into the theater. This is something that the USAF and the USMC have practiced and trained for since the 1960s. To add to this capability, the CVSG will smaller in aircraft deploys with more SSMs and atleast 48 F18s (C,E and F variants). Anyone taking on a F22, be it combat or training has much to fear from it. It would not be impossible to wake up and hear on the news that 30 F22s are in the region. And the new F/A-18E/F while not fully a stealth is very steathy (although by far the slowest fighter in the US inventory). We are still waiting to see how good the F35 is, which will also be joining the USAF,USMC and USN.

Oh what would prevent the USAF from deploying a squadron,group or wing of F-22s to Hawaii,Guam or various other facilities in the region? (Diplomatic,military,etc means)

[MIGleader]

well, the f-22 advantage is steath, not much more. alot of its innovaitions like liquid crystal display, hms, tvc were already on russian planes years ago.
if the chinese can put plasma on a j-11 or j-10, that may even the plain.

[Raven]

MiG Leader, far as I know, only the Aussies have been able to detect and track the older F-117. But the F-117 is light years behind stealth capabilities of the F22 and I believe the F35. The one F-117 lost in 1999 was brought down by AAA for reasons which I will not discuss.

[MIGleader]

the f-22 is only semi stealth, not full like the f-117. the means used to detect an f-117 can be aplied to an f-22 fairly easily.

[Raven]

Hello MiG Leader


Not sure where you are getting that info but this is how the US airpower and stealth breaks down

parcial stealth

F/A-18E/F
B-1B Lancer (Everyone here calls them BONES)
SR-71 (Retired)

very stealthy

F-117A
F-35A/B/C

Lowest Radar Cross section

B-2A
F/A-22

In fact, out of all of these aircraft, the only one I have never seen is the SR-71. I took my wife and mother to see an airshow and was surprised to see a B2 do a few passes. But the B2 and the F22 are the stealthiest aircraft we have. Actually, the Northop F-23 was even more stealthy than the F22 but Lockheed won for various other reasons.

[adeptitus]

Rather than trying to build manned aircraft to counter the F/A-22, I think you'd better off investing in UAV technology.

Human pilots require a lot of training, then they quit and join a civilian airline. You won't have that problem with mass produced attack UAV's. Plus programmers & R&D staff don't require 20/20 vision.

[MIGleader]

there is no way to determine true stealth, there are radars availible that can easily find an f-22, but to guide a missle to it is a different matter. the chinese may be able to develop a missle that uses ground based anti stealth radar to home on its enemy.

[BrotherofSnake]

The performance of the F/A-22 is just astounding. The Raptor will utterly dominate the skies of the 21st century just as the F-15 Eagle has done for the past 30 years. :)

[Chairman Hu]

No
No
No
No AND HELL NO!

There is a new cold war already in the making, the F-22 will live for maybe 50 years and will be gone, China will come up with something better, there is a demand for it, I really wouldn't underestimate China if I were you, China's nuclear program is a fine example

Russia didnt help but China had a bomb by 64', nice...

[BrotherofSnake]

We had a bomb by 1945. :D

[Chairman Hu]

exactly, did American officals think that just because the bomb can give America superiority over the world??? HELL NO!

America worked hard and even harder as the Russians had the bomb in 49' and H-bomb had in 53'

Now, America MUST work hard to upgrade the Raptor or else the J-XX will overtake the Raptor, China is too willing to get what she wants...

Remember what China did with the Ilyushin-28 back in the 60s'?

[Malizia]

The french Rafale in its last version (2 seats with highly advanced avionic made by Thalès and Dassalut aviation) can fly in a tactical group with 2 UCAV Dassault "Neuron" shown in Salon du Bourget (juin 2005). I saw "Neuron" at this air meeting. Neuron UCAV looks like B2 and future american UCAVs. It has air-air capability and air-ground and colud wipe out in BVR mode guided by the Rafale who lead it. This extraordinary UCAV stealth (fighter and bomber) has no equivalent for years, including Boeing and Lockheed-Martin projects. F22 and F35 could be destroyed by the Trio : 1 Rafale + 2 Neurons....we'll see ;)

F15 was the leader of the Air during lots of year, perhaps ?!?
It was used by Israeli with success against Syrian AF in 1982-1983, ok, fine !
But who knows what happened if F15s met mig 29 or SU 27 (or Mig 31) in the last period of Cold War ???? And the Mirage 2000 ? WHo knows ?
For me, F15, F14, F16, Mirage 2000, Mig 29, Mig 31 and Su27 were the kings of the Air supremacy during 80's,90's and now....
After, perhaps the F22 in the 21th century or a challenger ? We'll see! Nobody knows !
Perhpas, Indian pilots or chinese could challenge perfectly us pilots in a future conflict !
Rendez-vous in the next 25 years in this forum !

[IDonT]

It's more than stealth that makes the F-22 the worlds first Air Dominance fighter.

1. Supercruise - to travel at mach speeds without using after burners.
2. Stealth - F-22 is stealthier than the F-117.
3. Avionics and Radar - Next generation AESA radar. It is rumored that the F-22 active radar cannot be detected by passive radar.

China cannot even make an aircraft at the same caliber as the F-15C, now your telling us that it can beat the F-22?

What radar do you know of that can detect an F-22?

USAF has done MAch combat with 2 F-22 vs as many as 16 F-15Cs, guess who won?

[IDonT]

exactly, did American officals think that just because the bomb can give America superiority over the world??? HELL NO!

America worked hard and even harder as the Russians had the bomb in 49' and H-bomb had in 53'

Now, America MUST work hard to upgrade the Raptor or else the J-XX will overtake the Raptor, China is too willing to get what she wants...

Remember what China did with the Ilyushin-28 back in the 60s'?

Creating a nuke bomb from scratch is a lot harder than being given the blueprints from a spy.

In terms of portability, miniaturization, and yield, US nukes are more advance than the rest of the world.

[IDonT]

there is no way to determine true stealth, there are radars availible that can easily find an f-22, but to guide a missle to it is a different matter. the chinese may be able to develop a missle that uses ground based anti stealth radar to home on its enemy.

Please name the radars that can detect the F-22.

IF there was such a thing as ground base anti-stealth radar, it will be one fo the first targets of the enxt generation tomahawk.

[Chairman Hu]

Yes thats what i'm telling you, get OVER it!

The Soviet Union's production didn't surpass the former rate from before the 1917 Revolution in 1940, and that was just in farming

For industry, it 14-foldded, you tell me, try and beat China's 760 million man labor force, it WILL increase when in time of crisis

you idiot, like computers can get hacked, there is always a backdoor to EVERYTHING

[IDonT]

Rather than trying to build manned aircraft to counter the F/A-22, I think you'd better off investing in UAV technology.

Human pilots require a lot of training, then they quit and join a civilian airline. You won't have that problem with mass produced attack UAV's. Plus programmers & R&D staff don't require 20/20 vision.

The main question is how vulnerable is your UAV signals from interference. It would not be a hard stretch of the imagination for a US ELINT aircraft to hack onto your controls and use your UAVs against you.

[Chairman Hu]

I think thats for both, even US UAVs can be hacked into

Once again: Everything has a backdoor

[IDonT]

I think thats for both, even US UAVs can be hacked into

Once again: Everything has a backdoor

Very true, that is why there will still be a place for manned aircraft in the future.

[Azn boy]

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f15-su30-1.html


Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time'

Aviation Week and Space Technology, aviationnow.com

By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie

[May 24, 2002]

The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.
A F-15 and Su-27U

"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.

"It works in the simulator every time," the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.

Those skeptical of the experiments say they're being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that could match the F-22 radar's ability to find targets at around 120 mi. They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it's true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said. These analysts don't deny the F-22's value as an air-to-air fighter, but say the aircraft's actual operational value will be greatest in the penetrating strike, air defense suppression and electronic jamming roles.

At the same time, there may be more to the simulations than justifying new weaponry, say European analysts. Also at play are some tactical wrinkles being developed for the more effective use of new Russian missile versions.
57 KB

Russian Su-27UBs formate with USAF F-15s. While Ex Cope India was the first fully documented DACT with these aircraft, some sources claim that some informal exchanges took place one such visit by Flankers to USA. However this is hotly disputed by others.

The combination of Su-30 and R-27ER/ET (NATO designation AA-10), flown and fought in a competent fashion, also represents a significant threat. Even though the R-27ER is only a semiactive radar-guided missile, the extra maneuvering capability resulting from the large motor is a significant improvement over the basic R-27. Basic Russian air force doctrine has long suggested following a semi-active missile launch immediately with an IR missile launch, such as the R-27ET. Theory has it that the target aircraft's crew will be occupied spoofing the inbound radar missile, only to fall to the second missile.

The R-27ER, while only semiactive, also outperforms the baseline R-77 ( AA-12) in terms of kinematics. The R-77 motor has a simple, and short, burn profile, which has resulted in disappointing performance, piquing the Russian air force's interest in developing the K-77M rather than fielding the basic AA-12 in any numbers. The K-77M (K denotes a missile still in development, while R reflects an inventory weapon) is an upgraded R-77 with improvements that include a larger motor with a burn sequence profiled to increase range.

The oft-touted, but yet-to-be-fielded, R-27EA active variant of the AA-10 could further enhance the Su-30's capabilities, were an export customer to buy the derivative. In terms of one-on-one combat, the second-generation Flanker family presents a considerable threat to aircraft not designed from the outset as low observable, unless they are capable of extended-range BVR missile engagements. For instance, this threat drove the British selection of a rocket-ramjet missile to equip the Eurofighter.

[BrotherofSnake]

lol The Indians had an advantage over the USAF the whole time. The F-15s flew against a 3:1 ratio favoring the Indians and they were only allowed to use WVR weapons.

[swimmerXC]

yea in WVR, Su-30 will win no matter what against the F-15, shouldn't the MKI be advance than the F-15C in avonics? after all it does have BARS

[BrotherofSnake]

Some F-15s have the APG-63 active electronically scanned array radar. I think the F-15s used against Indian Sukhois were armed with AIM-9Xs.

[adeptitus]

The main question is how vulnerable is your UAV signals from interference. It would not be a hard stretch of the imagination for a US ELINT aircraft to hack onto your controls and use your UAVs against you.

A pre-programmed UAV that fly to a kill-box and utilize computer AI and optical imaging to ID and attack targets, would not require live data link/control.

The Israeli Harpy, for an example, is a primitive "fire and forget" attack UAV that requires no manual input after it's deployed. The Harpy system is designed to be fully autonomous in target acquisition and attack:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/uav/harpy/HARPY.html

"The Harpy mission is planned and programmed in the battery ground control center, as an independent mission, or planned in accordance with other manned or unmanned systems. The drone flies autonomously enroute to its patrol area its radar seeker head constantly search for hostile radars. Once suspicious radar is acquired, Harpy compares the signal to the library of hostile emitters, and prioritizes the threat. If the target is verified, the drone enters an attack mode, as it transitions into a near vertical dive, homing on the signal. The drone is set to detonate its warhead just above the target, to generate the highest damage to the antennae, and surrounding facilities. If the radar is turned off before Harpy strikes, the drone can abort the attack and continue loitering. If no radar was spotted during the mission, the drone is programmed to self destruct over a designated area. Follow-on systems which are already proposed to foreign clients, are calling for a combination of seeker and killer drones that will enable visual identification and attack of targets even after they turn off their emitters."

====================

My opinion is that, it's a LOT easier to build a "stealth" UAV or Cruise Missile, than a stealth plane. The Kongsberg NSM is one example:
http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kda/products/Missiles/mainframe.asp?Id=8050

Rather than sending fighters to oppose enemy aircraft, you'd simply launch stealth UAV & cruise missiles to attack enemy airstrips and aircraft carriers. The enemy anti-missile defense system will have to combat against sea-skimming stealth anti-ship missiles with extremely low radar cross section.

UAV's are excellent vehicles to both mass-deploy & extend the range of cruise missiles. Unlike expensive fighter planes, it's cheaper to mass-produce UAV's and cruise missiles, lowering the overall cost per unit. If you can lower your cost per cruise missile to $500,000 each, for the price of a $100 million stealth plane, you can buy 200 missiles.

[MIGleader]

lets sum things up. the f-22 is a capable fighter, but the chinese are hot on its tail. and so are the russians. a j-11, euro figher, rafale, or any other advanced 4 th gen fighter with plasma ram, tvc, and a high power fuel saving engine can perform 90% as well as a rapter, but may only cost a fourth of what the raptor costs.

the f-15c is neither the best f-15 varient or a dominant fighter. its just a impression the u.s likes to foster. its potential is also depleted. a flanker with a good radar like the mki will whoop an f-15's ass.

[Chairman Hu]

what are rams again?

Yea true, Raptor got foes how on their tail!

How will the MCA fare against the J-XX and the Raptor...?

from the current point of view

[swimmerXC]

RAM- radar absorbing material

[BrotherofSnake]

RAM is radar absorbent material.

I doubt the MCA and J-XX would be as good as the Raptor.

[tphuang]

yea in WVR, Su-30 will win no matter what against the F-15, shouldn't the MKI be advance than the F-15C in avonics? after all it does have BARS
where did you get that idea from? BARS is PAR and some F-15Cs are equipped with AESA. The range from BARS is overblown, it's only 140-160 KM search vs F-16C/Ds. It's look up and down range is nothing to brag about either. What it has is superior maneouverability to F-15Cs. Also, R-77M has much longer range than AIM-120s.

As for F-22 raptors, the PLAAF's only chance against it is to send a lot of cannon fodder fighters against it and hope that the raptors fire at it and use up all their AAMs.

[tphuang]

RAM is radar absorbent material.

I doubt the MCA and J-XX would be as good as the Raptor.
looking at LCA's progress, I wonder if MCA will ever come out.

As for J-XX, it would be foolish to think that it would reach F-22's level. If it can get to the Eurofighter's level, it would be pretty good.

[tphuang]

Hello MiG Leader


Not sure where you are getting that info but this is how the US airpower and stealth breaks down

parcial stealth

F/A-18E/F
B-1B Lancer (Everyone here calls them BONES)
SR-71 (Retired)

very stealthy

F-117A
F-35A/B/C

Lowest Radar Cross section

B-2A
F/A-22

In fact, out of all of these aircraft, the only one I have never seen is the SR-71. I took my wife and mother to see an airshow and was surprised to see a B2 do a few passes. But the B2 and the F22 are the stealthiest aircraft we have. Actually, the Northop F-23 was even more stealthy than the F22 but Lockheed won for various other reasons.
do you have the RCS for these planes?

[swimmerXC]

i think the very stealhy and on's RCS are classifield

[Vanguard1688]

F-22's manuverability is overrated, I doubt its more manuverable than a Flanker or Fulcrum.

[IDonT]

lets sum things up. the f-22 is a capable fighter, but the chinese are hot on its tail. and so are the russians. a j-11, euro figher, rafale, or any other advanced 4 th gen fighter with plasma ram, tvc, and a high power fuel saving engine can perform 90% as well as a rapter, but may only cost a fourth of what the raptor costs.

the f-15c is neither the best f-15 varient or a dominant fighter. its just a impression the u.s likes to foster. its potential is also depleted. a flanker with a good radar like the mki will whoop an f-15's ass.

The CHinese or the Russians are not hot on its tail. Russia has yet to field a fighter as capable as the Rafael and the Eurofighter. China indeginous plane is the J-10, which is yet to be put in service and only comparable to early F-16 models.

Plasma stealth is theoratical, no prototype has been produced.
F-15C is the best air to air variant of the F-15. The F-15E, F-15K, and the F-15T are all multiroe fighters. They are heavier because their frames are strengthed to accomodate heavier ordiance required for air to ground attack.
F-15C is only air to air. Its AESA radar has unparralled look down shoot down capability.

Regarding Cope India exercises on how the SU 30 beat the F-15Cs, USAF was simulating PAF capability. That is why they were not allowed to use their Amraams and AEW support.

[Totoro]

I have been following the f22 program for a decade now and it is interesting how in the mid 90s it was maintained how f22 was a stealthy and LO aircraft. I remember how there were different, independent claims how 'it may not be as stealthy as f117 but it's sure way stealthier than any other true air superiority fighter'. And that was coming from official US sources. Then, from the 2000 or so, the story changed. Now everyone claims F22 is at least just as stealthy if not more than f117. So what has changed since then? The redesign of the plane since the prototype? Or have we been lied back then, perhaps trying to make potential enemies believe that f22 is less capable than it is?

In the concrete US vs china scenario, in my opinion, engaging a flight of f22 far from mainland would be close to suicide. If, however, f22s are supporting the attacks on mainland, chinese chances would rise, somewhat. ground/mobile radars are more capable of detecting raptors, compared to fighter/awacs radars. If chinese could somehow establish a real time datalink between all radars in the area, it would create such a network of multiple bi/tri/poli static radars that f22s threat would be lowered quite a bit. Of course, in order to maintain such a network, you have to protect it. Meaning it can not really be used hundreds of km out of mainland.

Someone mentioned that 16 f16 could not cope with 2 f22. How about 32 j7s versus 2 f22? Sure, 16 would be brought down easely, perhaps even as much as 4 or so with cannons... but, without missiles, even f22s could not hold out against overwhelming force of even such old planes like j7. Of course, americans would probably shoot all the missiles then retreat. But still, an overwhelming force of old fighters could be used as a deterrant. At least for as long you have enough of them to be sacrificed. :D

[IDonT]

I have been following the f22 program for a decade now and it is interesting how in the mid 90s it was maintained how f22 was a stealthy and LO aircraft. I remember how there were different, independent claims how 'it may not be as stealthy as f117 but it's sure way stealthier than any other true air superiority fighter'. And that was coming from official US sources. Then, from the 2000 or so, the story changed. Now everyone claims F22 is at least just as stealthy if not more than f117. So what has changed since then? The redesign of the plane since the prototype? Or have we been lied back then, perhaps trying to make potential enemies believe that f22 is less capable than it is?

In the concrete US vs china scenario, in my opinion, engaging a flight of f22 far from mainland would be close to suicide. If, however, f22s are supporting the attacks on mainland, chinese chances would rise, somewhat. ground/mobile radars are more capable of detecting raptors, compared to fighter/awacs radars. If chinese could somehow establish a real time datalink between all radars in the area, it would create such a network of multiple bi/tri/poli static radars that f22s threat would be lowered quite a bit. Of course, in order to maintain such a network, you have to protect it. Meaning it can not really be used hundreds of km out of mainland.

Someone mentioned that 16 f16 could not cope with 2 f22. How about 32 j7s versus 2 f22? Sure, 16 would be brought down easely, perhaps even as much as 4 or so with cannons... but, without missiles, even f22s could not hold out against overwhelming force of even such old planes like j7. Of course, americans would probably shoot all the missiles then retreat. But still, an overwhelming force of old fighters could be used as a deterrant. At least for as long you have enough of them to be sacrificed. :D

The morale of the J-7 pilots must be low. I wouldn't want to be thought of as cannon fodder.

We all know that they US doctrine is always to use overwhelming force. Those it would be more like 8 F-22 and 12 F-15C doing fighter sweeps while B-2, F-117, B-1, F-15E, and Super hornet attack various radar and command and control sights. This will be use in conjunction with tomahawk strikes supported by AWACS and ELINT aircraft.

In the mid 1990's the F-22 was competing with the F-23. Compared to that plane, it is not as stealthy.

[Totoro]

The morale of the J-7 pilots must be low. I wouldn't want to be thought of as cannon fodder.

We all know that they US doctrine is always to use overwhelming force. Those it would be more like 8 F-22 and 12 F-15C doing fighter sweeps while B-2, F-117, B-1, F-15E, and Super hornet attack various radar and command and control sights. This will be use in conjunction with tomahawk strikes supported by AWACS and ELINT aircraft.

In the mid 1990's the F-22 was competing with the F-23. Compared to that plane, it is not as stealthy.

I didn't say chinese would actually use j6 and j7 for such missions. But it sure would be helpful to have a massive number of drones in the air in any kind of combat versus US, be they manned or unmanned. If china could indoctrinize some of their pilots to give their lives freely for the cause, that'd help, for sure. Perhaps train new pilots for that very role, basically just to fly the plane, without any fancy, years long, air combat training. Again, that's just a wild idea of mine which, while i do believe could be useful, i don't believe it would be used due to various political reasons in china itself.

8 f22 and 12 f15 still wouldn't be an overwhelming force in such a scenario. It'd have to be some 100 fighters at one place, at the same time to do that. (still doable for USAAF/USN of course, given enough CBGs in the area)

It has been said often that f23 would have been stealthier, yeah. But what about f22 versus f117? you didn't reply to my post about that, saying how the stealth status of f22 changed from circa 1995 to today, making it more stealthy now.

[IDonT]

I didn't say chinese would actually use j6 and j7 for such missions. But it sure would be helpful to have a massive number of drones in the air in any kind of combat versus US, be they manned or unmanned. If china could indoctrinize some of their pilots to give their lives freely for the cause, that'd help, for sure. Perhaps train new pilots for that very role, basically just to fly the plane, without any fancy, years long, air combat training. Again, that's just a wild idea of mine which, while i do believe could be useful, i don't believe it would be used due to various political reasons in china itself.

8 f22 and 12 f15 still wouldn't be an overwhelming force in such a scenario. It'd have to be some 100 fighters at one place, at the same time to do that. (still doable for USAAF/USN of course, given enough CBGs in the area)

It has been said often that f23 would have been stealthier, yeah. But what about f22 versus f117? you didn't reply to my post about that, saying how the stealth status of f22 changed from circa 1995 to today, making it more stealthy now.

Data concerning true radar cross section between USAF stealth fighters are classified. But we can conject about it. The stealth status never identified what was making the aircraft less stealthy. Is it the radar cross section, IR signiture, etc. Those things COULD have been solved. After all 1995 was 10 years ago.

The f-117 is a first generation stealth aircraft and its technology level is of the 1970's. F-22 is more advance allowing for curve surfaces on the airframe.

[Chairman Hu]

AHAHAHHAAH the use of J-7s

I say you both are right to a certain degree, The Raptor is... Superior, and there is no way China can beat it right now, and even I think 2 Raptors can take 50 J-7s, ya know, Raptors can sneak up on you and you are screwed, so... yea

8 Raptor and 12 Eagles... wow... maybe 8 Foxhound and 12 Jian-11 will do well against that, at least the Foxhound and nail the B-1 and the AWACS

PAK FA and Jian-XX are just concepts, but they are the only possiblities to take the Raptor

MCA from India... bleh...

[MIGleader]

The CHinese or the Russians are not hot on its tail. Russia has yet to field a fighter as capable as the Rafael and the Eurofighter. China indeginous plane is the J-10, which is yet to be put in service and only comparable to early F-16 models.

Russia??? the su-35 is very capable, though may not be as advanced as the euro or raf, its comes close. then the su-37, if they actually fielded that plane, its only competition would be the f-22.

the j-10 is like early f-16 models, thats the fc-1. the j-10, complete with israeli radar and bvr missles , can take on any of taiwans f-16's.

[Totoro]

and even I think 2 Raptors can take 50 J-7s, ya know, Raptors can sneak up on you and you are screwed, so... yea



um, actually, if we had such unrealistic 2 raptors versus 50 j7s battle till death scenario, even if the j7 pilots are complete morons who cant hit an elephant at two feet range, 2 raptors would still have missiles for only 16 planes, plus max 10 more planes shot down w the gun. Even if raptors would also be carrying additinal external pylon mounted missiles they would be able to bring down 42 planes. 16 internal plus 16 external missiles plus 10 shot down w guns. :D

[Chairman Hu]

RAM THEM!!! JK!

Oh come on, what I mean is there isn't a certain number of J-7s that can take the Raptor, besides, Americans arernt stupid, there is no F'CKING way that they won't have the eagles to accompany them, NO F'CKING WAY!

2 Raptor and 8 Eagles vs 50 J-7 is what will happen in a more likely situation, sry for the misunderstanding of the phrase

[swimmerXC]

F-22's manuverability is overrated, I doubt its more manuverable than a Flanker or Fulcrum.

Aparranlty the MKI's got better AOA than the F-22, b/c of their 3D TV engines

8 Raptor and 12 Eagles... wow... maybe 8 Foxhound and 12 Jian-11 will do well against that, at least the Foxhound and nail the B-1 and the AWACS

no way 8 Mig-31 and 12 J-11 can take on 8 raptor and 12 eagles, first of all for proof the 12 eagles will already be more advance than the 12 J-11, so thats no match; second 8 raptors can probably take on 3-4 times that much MiG-31s...

[MIGleader]

the only disadvantage the j-11 has to the f-15 is the bad radar. the new j-11b is likely to feature a more capable indegedous or russian radar.

i guess the mig-31 should not be underestimated. it can hide in the sky and snipe at lower planes. but against a raptor? it would lose.

[swimmerXC]

how do you "define" hiding in the sky? is there anybuildings to hide in, in the sky? last time i check the sky was all clear to me.... the Mig-31 is a big fat target for the raptors to hit. why, b/c it's RCS is huge... all the raptor needs to do is fly near ground level and shoot up at the Mig-31

[Azn boy]

http://www.engineering.com/content/ContentDisplay?contentId=41010021
Stealth Technology


Stealth has become the magic word in contemporary weapon systems. Contemporary work on stealth has its roots in long-standing efforts to reduce the visibility of military aircraft through camouflage paint schemes. However, as electronic sensors have replaced the eyes of pilots as the primary means of tracking other aircraft, more intricate means of defense were needed.



Stealth Technology

Often thought of simply as the use of special materials to render aircraft invisible to radar, stealth is actually a complex design philosophy to reduce the ability of an opponent's sensors to detect, track and attack an aircraft (or other platforms such as warships). Since a variety of sensors would be used in this process, design of a stealth vehicle requires careful trade-offs among different techniques. The great secrecy surrounding stealth programs is designed not simply to protect a particular stealth technology, as it is to protect the choice and mix of techniques that have been used in a specific system.

A variety of technologies are may be combined in order to make itself "invisible" to radar. These technologies include a smooth surface, "flying wing" design, radar absorbent materials (RAM), engines hidden in the body of the airplane, and electronic countermeasures (ECM). Each of these features contribute to the attempt fool enemy air defense systems. The planes low radar cross section (RCS) reduces the range at which ground-based and air-based radars can detect the aircraft. The RAM absorbs most of a radar's signal, and the aircraft's wing-shaped and rounded design redirects much of the remaining power away from the radar source. Engines are buried in the fuselage with air intake and exhaust ducts placed on the top of the aircraft in order to reduce the heat trail, and hide the jet engine's compressor blades from radar detection. ECM is a last resort attempt to confuse the radar operator through jamming and ghost imaging.

The benefits of stealth technology is inherently obvious. Especially since, 70 percent of Soviet-style air defense systems use radar detection and tracking. However, as the next section on limitations will illustrate, the other elements of air defense detection and tracking; infrared (IR), electro-optical (EO) and visual, also need to be circumvented if an aircraft is to be truly "stealthy."

Limitations

There is no one optimum stealth design, but rather each mission requirement generates an appropriate mix of techniques. Implementation of stealth is not without penalties. Some of the materials used require special and costly maintenance. The maneuverability of an aircraft can be compromised by the introduction of stealth design features. As was the case with the F-117A, each B-2 bomber will have its own covered maintenance facility, since the B-2's low observable features require frequent performance of structural and maintenance activities.

Stealth requires not only design compromises, it also imposes operational compromises. Sensors to locate targets pose a particular problem for stealth aircraft. The large radars used by conventional aircraft would obviously compromise the position of a stealth aircraft. Air-to-air combat would rely on passive detection of transmissions by hostile aircraft, as well as infrared tracking. However, these techniques are of marginal effectiveness against other stealth aircraft, explaining the limited application of stealth to the Advanced Tactical Fighter.

Aircraft for attacking targets on the ground face a similar problem. FLIR can be used for precise aiming at targets whose general location is known, but they are poorly suited for searching for targets over a wide area. A radar on the aircraft to scan for potential targets would compromise its position. In order to locate targets, stealth aircraft may rely on an airborne laser radar, although such a sensor may prove of limited utility in poor weather. A more promising approach would be to use data from reconnaissance satellites, either transmitted directly from the satellite or relayed through communications satellites from processing centers in the United States.

There are limits to the utility of stealth techniques. Since the radar cross-section of an aircraft depends on the angle from which it is viewed, an aircraft will typically have a much smaller RCS when viewed from the front or rear than when viewed from the side or from above. In general stealth aircraft are designed to minimize their frontal RCS. But it is not possible to contour the surface of an aircraft to reduce the RCS equally in all directions, and reductions in the frontal RCS may lead to a larger RCS from above. Thus while a stealth aircraft may be difficult to track when it is flying toward a ground-based radar or another aircraft at the same altitude, a high-altitude airborne radar or a space-based radar may have an easier time tracking it.

Another limitation of stealth aircraft is their vulnerability to detection by bi-static radars. The contouring of a stealth aircraft is designed to avoid reflecting a radar signal directly back in the direction of the radar transmitter. But the transmitter and receiver of a bi-static radar are in separate locations — indeed, a single transmitter may be used by radar receivers scattered over a wide area. This greatly increases the odds that at least one of these receivers will pickup a reflected signal. The prospects for detection of stealth aircraft by bi-static radar are further improved if the radar transmitter is space-based, and thus viewing the aircraft from above, the direction of its largest radar cross section.

Several analysts claim stealth aircraft such as the ATF will be vulnerable to detection by infrared search and track systems (IRST). The natural heating of an aircraft's surface makes it visible to this type of system. The faster and aircraft flies, the warmer it gets, and thus, the easier to detect through infrared means. One expert asserts "if an aircraft deviates from its surroundings by only one degree centigrade, you will be able to detect it at militarily useful ranges." In fact, both the Russian MiG-29 and Su-27 carry IRST devices, which indicates that the Russians have long targeted this as a potential stealth weakness.

Stealth aircraft are even more vulnerable to multiple sensors used in tandem. By using an IRST to track the target and a Ladar (laser radar), or a narrow beam, high-power radar to paint the target superior data is provided.

The most basic potential limitation of stealth, is its vulnerability to visual detection. Since the ATF is 25-30 percent larger than the F-15 and 40 percent larger than the F-18, for example, it will be much easier to detect visually from ranges on the order of 10 miles. When one considers that stealth characteristics will drastically reduce the effectiveness of several types of guided air-to-air missiles, fighter engagements will probably move back to the visual range arena. In this context, the cumbersome F-22 would be at a distinct disadvantage.
Another potential "limitation" of stealth technology has little to do with its capabilities. Rather, some question the effect the pursuit of such hi tech aircraft will have on the US aerospace industry as a whole. These aircraft would not be available for foreign export until well into the next century. During that time, competitors such as the Gripen, Rafale and EFA will be peddled aggressively by European exporters. One analyst estimated that US foreign sales saved the Pentagon "about $2.8 billion through surcharges to recover part of their development costs and perhaps another $4 billion through the learning curve effect of higher production runs." Thus, America's stealth success could actually backfire, on its larger aerospace industry by causing it to forfeit sales to a new generation of top-of-the-line, although less formidable, European fighter aircraft.

Programs

F-117A — Development of stealth aircraft began in the early 1970s, with the Experimental Stealth Tactical (XST), code-named "Have Blue." This project resulted in the Lockheed F-117A, with 20 of these aircraft ordered from Lockheed by the Air Force in 1981, and a total of 59 aircraft were produced. The F-117A first flew in 1983 and entered service at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada in 1983. The original F-117A program envisioned over 100 aircraft, but soaring costs (each aircraft costs over $100 million), performance problems (several of the aircraft have crashed in training flights), limited payload (the aircraft can carry only two 900 Kg laser guided bombs internally), and the lack of a clearly defined mission all contributed to the curtailment of the program.




F-117A Nighthawk
Although the F-117A exhibits breakthrough low-observable characteristics, it was not built from scratch. Designers modified F-16 flight controls and F-18 engines. Lockheed officials say that using and improving on existing technology, rather than re-inventing the wheel, allowed them to make the F-117 at half the cost and in half the time of equivalent aircraft.

The F-177A first saw combat in the American intervention in Panama in December 1989, when two of the aircraft were used to attack an airfield, but this mission was marred by pilot error which caused one of the aircraft's bombs to land far from the intended target. The F-117A performed well in Desert Storm, which may be the primary reason that the aircraft's production line, once slated for closure, has recently been revived.

ATB - B-2 — The Stealth Bomber project was first announced by the Carter Administration in the heat of the 1980 Presidential campaign, in response to Republican criticism of the decision to cancel the B-1A bomber. Since its unveiling in November 1988, the B-2 has been the focus of mounting criticism of the inexorably growing cost of the project, the regularity with which its schedule has been delayed, and doubts about mission requirements.

B-2 Bomber

The B-2 will be the most expensive aircraft ever procured, and by some estimates each bomber will literally cost its weight in gold. The General Accounting Office estimated that the cost of the 132 aircraft program in then-year dollars would total $68.8 billion, based on a $36.6 billion cost in constant FY81 dollars. By mid-1988 the cost estimate for 132 aircraft had grown to $43 billion (in constant 1981 dollars). In the Spring of 1990 Secretary Cheney's decided to reduce the buy from 132 aircraft to 75, with a budget in then-year dollars of $61 billion. Based on the costs required to bring the B-1B up to its intended performance (an additional $8 billion over the original $20 billion price) the eventual cost of the more technologically challenging B-2 could exceed $1 billion each.
Two missions for the B-2 emerged from the veil of secrecy. Some advocates argued that the B-2 is needed to offset improvements in Soviet air defenses, and that the exertions the Soviets would make to augment their air defenses to counter the B-2 will inhibit their efforts in strategic offensive and conventional forces. Others argue that the B-2 is needed in order to attack Soviet mobile missiles such as the SS-24 and SS-25. But given the high cost of the project and competing budget priorities, neither of these rationales has proved particularly compelling to the Congress. Secretary Cheney's decision to reduce scope of the program proved a watershed. House and Senate conferees agreed to spend only $1.8 billion in 1992 on the B-2. Nothing more can be spent on the aircraft without the approval of the full House, which has been consistently opposed to the program. While supporters of the Stealth Bomber say the aircraft's future is unclear, the $1.8 billion figure was a distinct setback. Critics claim that the agreement literally kills the program.

Non - US Programs

Great Britain has expressed interest in developing its own low-observable aircraft. The US Air Force has clearly indicated its interest in selling the F-117 to the United States' closest ally. It is more likely, however, that London will acquire certain stealth technologies that it can use in its down programs, than buy the finished product. Britain plans to begin work on a stealth aircraft in the next five years, and have a functioning technology demonstrator by the end of the 1990s. The RAF says it will develop an upgraded Tornado that will be akin to the US Navy's AX strike aircraft. The RAF has been conducting radar absorbent material (RAM) experiments on Tornados since at least November 1990.

One phenomenon that worries US defense officials is the technology lag between the time the United States fields a particular system, and the time its adversaries do. For example, while the United States' top line fighter was introduced in 1975, the Soviet's top fighter, the MiG-29's initial operating capability (IOC) was 11 years later in 1986. Thus, "their" best aircraft is based on technology 11 years more modern than "ours." Secretary of Defense Cheney (1989 - 1992) voiced concern that this may apply to the fielding of stealth technology, and that 11 years after the F-22s IOC, for example, we will be facing a brand new Russian stealth fighter.

[Raven]

Since someone mentioned the best pure interceptor I'll talk about it. I have been told that 6 MiG-31s evenly spaced out can cover the ENTIRE stretch of the Atlantic Ocean. That is major radar coverage.

Here are some facts to remember:

1) Russian aircraft aside from the MiG-31 and MiG-25 have always been designed with close in dogfighting in mind. Some people felt that the MiG-23 class of fighters were not manuverable. While I have never seen one fly, my friends who have and who have flown against them say they are very good fighters. The MiG-21,Mirage F-1 and F-5E fit into this category. Low tech, low operating and purchase cost and good performance.

2) US and most western Aircraft need highly trained ground support crews to keep them flying, also many specialized facilities and gear. MiG-23s,-29s and SU-27s require less facilities and are very tough aircraft. However, USMC and USN aircraft are natually strong for being able to operate from USN CVs and the special fields used by the USMC. Obviously except for the A10, the USAF is at a disadvantage in need special support staff and facilities.

3) Russian and other Eastern aircraft tend to lag behind in most aspects of high gear BUT they do have a very effective system with the IR Search and Tracking system and also the AA-11 and the helmet mounted sight. South Africa and Russia used this system first and now the US is using the AIM-9X.

4) The US Aircraft tend to have better combat range than the various MiGs and Flankers. The US Navy F/A-18C Hornet, relies on tanker support but the newer F/A-18E/F has much longer range. USAF tankers and buddy stores further aid the USAF/USMC/USN aircraft.

5) The F14D will leave a huge gap in the air defense of the USN

6) The new radars of the F/A-18E/F and a number of F-15C/Ds are great for long range detection, resistance to ECM/ECCM and other types of jamming

7) The Russian made AA-11 and AA-12 are excellent missiles.

8) SU-27s have scored in combat againt MiG-29s in a civilwar in Africa. At the moment, the MiG-29 has possibly the worst record in air combat. The F15 and F16 have the highest kill ratios. MiG-29s have been lost in Africa,the Balkans,Iraq.

9) The F22 is very deadly in BVR fightings, maybe unstoppable BUT in a dogfight there is no garantee it is the best in ACM. Also, pilot skill levels and training also help. I would be on the F22 to beat most aircraft on the planet. But, it still has not seen combat yet.

[Chairman Hu]

I remember the Paris Airshow of 1989...

The MiG-29 skyrocketed and that it performed tricks that American fighters wouldn't perform normally...

Sorry...

The Raptor will beat the Foxhound, if the foxhound cruise at M2.5, then it might survive, otherwise, it is dead. Even with the Foxhound maximum altitude of 80k feet, it won't escape the Raptor, for now, the only way is to find a way to counter stealth, the Raptor is more covert, if used correctly, this aircraft will still be around in service for another 100 years, it might not be dominate throughout the time, but it will still be there...

My point is, it could prove itself in a strike against China, using conventional weaponry for a large-scale attack, and use the Raptor to cut off reinforcments, and attack AWACS as earlier said... unlike the Fouxhound, it can be use in different ways but as effective

[tphuang]

The CHinese or the Russians are not hot on its tail. Russia has yet to field a fighter as capable as the Rafael and the Eurofighter. China indeginous plane is the J-10, which is yet to be put in service and only comparable to early F-16 models.
okay, don't attack J10, because someone isn't overwhelmed with F-22. J-10 is in service (for the last time) and it is comparable to at least block 30.

[tphuang]

RAM THEM!!! JK!

Oh come on, what I mean is there isn't a certain number of J-7s that can take the Raptor, besides, Americans arernt stupid, there is no F'CKING way that they won't have the eagles to accompany them, NO F'CKING WAY!

2 Raptor and 8 Eagles vs 50 J-7 is what will happen in a more likely situation, sry for the misunderstanding of the phrase
well, F-22 can still fly back to get more AAMs. Seriously though, the chance of J-7 taking down a raptor is the chance of J-7 accidentally flying into an object of F-22's size in the space.

[MIGleader]

the way a j-7 beats an f-22...wait till the f-22 wastes its missles on other planes, then ambush it. only works in a2a.

[IDonT]

the way a j-7 beats an f-22...wait till the f-22 wastes its missles on other planes, then ambush it. only works in a2a.

J-7 cannot catch the F-22.

[BrotherofSnake]

lol, isn't the J-7 just another MiG-21 clone?

[PiSigma]

remember guys, F-22 got supercruise, that means once it have depleted its ammo, it can also make a fast getaway. so it's almost impossible for the J-7 to catch up to it and try to shot it down, unless you got a few J-7s directly in its path and all firing missiles at it.

[tphuang]

remember guys, F-22 got supercruise, that means once it have depleted its ammo, it can also make a fast getaway. so it's almost impossible for the J-7 to catch up to it and try to shot it down, unless you got a few J-7s directly in its path and all firing missiles at it.
that's why I said, get F-22 to waste its ammo, put 100 J-7 around it and fly in random directions really fast and hope they crash into it. lol

[Totoro]

Actually, if a f22 is dumb enough to get into a dogfight with an overwhelming number of j7s then its supercruise wont help it. Sure, in the long run j7s could not possibly keep up. But for a short while, j7s could not only keep up but they could be faster w afterburner than f22 could be using its afterburners. And that short while would be enough for them to fire their R73s or whatever they'd be carrying.

Realistically, though, when that f22 sees such a huge number of enemy planes, it'd fire its amraams then turn around, not risk a dogfight unless absolutely necessary. Basically it comes down to number of raptors available and how many sorties they could do in a given time.

[swimmerXC]

if the F-22 does get into a dogfight with an overwhelming majority og J-7 then no thought it will be shot down, but what if it was vsing one on one with an J-10 or J-11? whoevers got HMS will get a major boost but it will more come down to training

[tphuang]

well, F-22 is built for all types of air combat. I'd think it would have no problem taking down a J-10/11. The only plane that might give it a little problem in dogfights is something like su-37 or eurofighter tycoon.

[swimmerXC]

if the pilot doesn't have HMS then J-10 or J-11 pilots might have the advantage (if the PLAAF does equip it to their pilots), since it will compromise for the TVC

[tphuang]

if the pilot doesn't have HMS then J-10 or J-11 pilots might have the advantage (if the PLAAF does equip it to their pilots), since it will compromise for the TVC
J-10 should be equipped with it.

[Chairman Hu]

what teh HMS?

of course, I dont think China will leave anything out that is important

[BrotherofSnake]

I think HMS means Helmet Mounted System or something like that. :confused:

[swimmerXC]

yea, it's Helmet Mounted Sight, it helps pilots lock onto other aircraft without pointing the nose of the plane or missile at it, but simply looking at that plane; it's used more in a dogfight than BVR; it lets pilots lock off boresight

[BrotherofSnake]

I know what it is. We are developing a system like this. It's called the Joint Mounted Cueing System (JHMS).

[MIGleader]

yes, the f-22 is fitted with a nms, alhough the introducton of it is a bit late, behing thales and the russians. thats how an f-22 can kick an f-15's ass.

i think all chinese j-10s and 11's are fitted with an arsenal hms or a loyang model.

[Raven]

I am curious about what the amount of training and what are the experience levels of the three nations in question. Obviously the USAF,USMC and USN in our society while keeping much about their training classified, are very well trained in several aspects of air combat. Now and wisely so, the DOD has made sure to train pilots and aircrews from each service in the capabilities of their sisters services and their aircraft. For instance, at Nellis AFB, you will see USAF,State ANG,USAFRes F16s flying missions with USN/USMC/CAF Hornets, USAF and ANG F15s against various Hornets,Vipers and soon aggresor F15s.

The US Navy has an extensive Adversary program:

VFA-201
VFA-204
VMFA-134
VMFA-142
VMFAT-101
VFC-12*
VFC-13 *
VMFT-401*
NSAWC* (Top Gun)

*Deadicated DACT units, the other unist do a large amount of DACT training for USAF,USN,USMC and NATO units.

In addition to the various Hornets,Vipers and F5s, the USN and USMC get support from various civilian contrators who fly special aircraft dissimilar to USMC/USN aircraft. I was very happy to be able to inspect a Learjet which does target tug duties at NAS Oceana. Cool to see 20mm holes in the banner. Aircraft flown by private companies include:

TA-4F/J
A-4E/H
L-39
Saab Draken
Kfiri F-21s (ATAC Inc. great outfit!!)

Contrary to what has been said, the US Navy tends to send nuggets to places like Poland,Israel and other nations to fly against dissimilar aircraft. These nuggets have already fought in ACM against Hornets,Super Hornets and F14s. But real MiG-21s,Fulcrums and other aircraft are valuable tools in teaching them to deal with various aircraft.

I am curious if the PLAAF or PLAN have an Adversary/Aggressor program. Russia,Japan and other nations operate these special units but not on the level of the USAF or USN/USMC.

[Chairman Hu]

Meh Im better off in combat for my training

HMS is needed, but still...

I only needed to know how a few things works and I got everything remembered... so... meh

The J-XX will beat 5 Eagles when it comes out

[BrotherofSnake]

The USN might buy a few flankers from Russia to serve as aggressors. This only a rumor though.

[Raven]

I doubt the USN would buy Flankers, I dont think Russia would sell them to us. Besides, the US Navy when it wants nuggets to get very special training will go to a nation with the aircraft they want the nuggets to see or will invite them here. Examples:

Instructor Pilots and Adversary Pilots from VFA106 and VFC12 often went to Germany to fly with and against MiG-29s.

A friend of mine and his USMCR squadron deployed to Poland for training with PAF MiG-29s and SU-20s.

Live Winder 2002 saw F18Cs,F18Es,F16s,F15s and MiG-29s training in Key West Florida.

The Cope Thunder,Cope India,Bright Star and Cobra Gold give US pilots and crews experience with MiG-17s,-21s,-23s,-25s,-27s,-29s and SU-27s and 30s.

Training is always a major factor in air combat. Does the PLAAF and PLAN have electronic training ranges similar to that of Russia or the US?

[swimmerXC]

Guys Make A Thread About The Usaf Stuff Somewhere Else In This Forum!!! IF YOU REALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT!!! :mad:

[MIGleader]

quote:Training is always a major factor in air combat. Does the PLAAF and PLAN have electronic training ranges similar to that of Russia or the US?


china is huge, bigger than the u.s. what else do you expect them to do with that space?

[IDonT]

quote:Training is always a major factor in air combat. Does the PLAAF and PLAN have electronic training ranges similar to that of Russia or the US?


china is huge, bigger than the u.s. what else do you expect them to do with that space?


Actually, the US is larger than CHina in terms of land mass.

[BrotherofSnake]

No, China is a bit bigger in land mass.

[IDonT]

No, China is a bit bigger in land mass.

Nope US is larger. You are forgetting Alaska.

http://www.aneki.com/largest.html


Rank Country Area (square kilometers)
1 Russia 17,075,400
2 Canada 9,976,140
3 United States 9,629,091
4 China 9,596,960
5 Brazil 8,511,965
6 Australia 7,686,850
7 India 3,287,590

[swimmerXC]

Of Course The Us Is Bigger, You Forgot The Add Their New Piece Of 437,072 Square Km Of Estate, They Have In The Middle East!!!!

[MIGleader]

and the estate they own in japan, and europe. did you forget columbia?
where di you get this info, idont? in school, we learn china is larger than u.s
remeber. china includes taiwan.

[BrotherofSnake]

I always thought Taiwan was a seperate country because they have their own government and military.

[vincelee]

strike version of the F-22? Can you say JSF? Let's be realistic here, not even the US can make THAT many F-22s. First of all there is no need, second....it would just kill the JSF program. Let's not forget that the F-22 was designed from the onset as an air superiority fighter and NOTHING more. There is a reason why the weapons bay is so small-it only carries AA weapons. The FB-22 is just some LH-M wetdream that got published in Popular Science.

oh, and by the way, the USN actually operates 2 flankers....they purchased them from a certain ex USSR splinter nation.

P.S.

Raven, I'm actually interesting in your version of the F-117 incident. What I've heard is that the flight pass of the nighthawk didn't change for 2 weeks, nor did the time of strike. Thus the OPFOR was able to put a mobile system in place to shoot it down.

[Chairman Hu]

BTW, Which two flankers?

The F-22 is for air domance, the F-22 doesnt need for ground attack roles, the massive number of B-1, B-2, and even the B-52 can get the job done and better.

Isnt this what China is afraid of? The unrestricted amount of bombing on Chinese soil as China can do nothing, just like WWII? *Sheer Opinion*

[sino52C]

FB-22 is likely to be canceled in favor of the much cheaper F-35. There is simply no money.

The US would use more F-16s and F-18s for strike missions, not necessarily heavy bombers.

[Chairman Hu]

Well yea, but i meant in unrestrcited bombing campaign, like unload a massive payload instead of just destroying certain targets

[sino52C]

I don't think any sane person would do that anymore....

[Chairman Hu]

Well during the gunieva convention of 1980, America didnt ratify the treaty to ban the use of napalm... as a good example...

Well anyways, The J-XX will be the counter and they can be used just like the MiG-31, stealthy and sneak up on AWACS and destroy it, take the J-10/11 and ambush foreign planes... better!

Lets discuss how well and what roles possible can be used?

[slackpiv]

and the estate they own in japan, and europe. did you forget columbia?
where di you get this info, idont? in school, we learn china is larger than u.s
remeber. china includes taiwan.
The US frequently has military excersizes in those countries. As for the middle east, i think that USAF pilots have gotten enough experiance already. As for the J-XX being able to shoot down 5 F-15s, what is your basis for thast statement. Many factors come into play. Will China be able to develop a stealthy figher up to the RCS of the JSF. Will the fighter be able to be agile and stealthy at the first time? From whom is china recieving help with its avionics, stealth, engines, and radar for the j-xx? Can China make the avionic breakthroughs needed for the next gen figher? Will China be able to develop a radar powerful enough to at least become comparison with the AESA? Will china be able to improve the thrust of its engines? Many factors will need to come into play to determine the fate of the j-xx.

[vincelee]

oh the AESA....you've never taken signal processing, have you? It's not the raw output of AESA that is mindboggling, but the fact that you have to be pretty damned lucky to device a filtering algorithem to detect it.

[IDonT]

oh the AESA....you've never taken signal processing, have you? It's not the raw output of AESA that is mindboggling, but the fact that you have to be pretty damned lucky to device a filtering algorithem to detect it.

Are you trying that the AESA is not detectable via passive systems while active? IF that is the case, the US has clear superiority over the current crop of fighters.

[chopsticks]

dudes...

J-XX or whatever isn't "on the drawing board". its real, VERY REAL *in my opinion* haha...

i spoke to a couple of Chinese fellas last week and they told me, that in their country, the latest or best gear is never seen, heard of, or smelled. :cool:
PRC is highly, extremely, paranoidly secretive about its new lineup. as Sun Tzu put it to know your "enemy" but hide your true strength. i know its unverifiable but i'm sure time will tell... right Chairman Hu? haha...

and anyways, Su-37 has the way to defeat F-22. its ultra-powerful radar can detect like a pin in the sky (exagerrating). and its ECM can jamm the daylights out of any Us made plane. basically, the Russians went the opposite direction and instead of absorbing radar, they're jamming the "enemy"'s.... (Su-37 can kick F-22 butt in dogfight anyday btw :cool: )


the point about Chinese space radars, yeah China has plenty of those... not to mention http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2003/12/22/2003084494

laser cannons... :eek:


Also, i heard of a peculiar way of detection using TV waves, not sure if anyone knows about this, but apparently, China has the ability to detect aircraft using CIVILIAN band TV radiowaves.... hahahhahahhha pretty cool isnt it... that would make Dong Fang Ming Zhu in Shanghai one big radar LOL :D (i don't have a source to this so pardon me if its inaccurate heheh =) )

[vincelee]

you're delusional.

how do you propose to jam an AESA? flooding the entire spectrum? That would defeat whatever radar you have.

And russians NEVER demonstrated effective active defense. Rafale is the only one rumored to have a working system.

[Raven]

My question was about the PLAN and PLAAF as far as the electronic training used by other nations. I was curious if the PLAAF and PLAN use targeting gear listed below:



-captive weapons that simulate live releases/launches

-Specially monitored ranges with electronic monitors to record training

-Practice bombs like the mk76 and the LGB training round

-Full scale target drones, old ships, tank and aircraft hulks

-Do the pilots and crews of the PLAN and PLAAF have adversary units

-Is there a training facility that is gives a higher level of training to top pilots.

[McZosch]

dudes...

J-XX or whatever isn't "on the drawing board". its real, VERY REAL *in my opinion* haha...

i spoke to a couple of Chinese fellas last week and they told me, that in their country, the latest or best gear is never seen, heard of, or smelled. :cool:
PRC is highly, extremely, paranoidly secretive about its new lineup. as Sun Tzu put it to know your "enemy" but hide your true strength. i know its unverifiable but i'm sure time will tell... right Chairman Hu? haha...

and anyways, Su-37 has the way to defeat F-22. its ultra-powerful radar can detect like a pin in the sky (exagerrating). and its ECM can jamm the daylights out of any Us made plane. basically, the Russians went the opposite direction and instead of absorbing radar, they're jamming the "enemy"'s.... (Su-37 can kick F-22 butt in dogfight anyday btw :cool: )


the point about Chinese space radars, yeah China has plenty of those... not to mention http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2003/12/22/2003084494

laser cannons... :eek:


Also, i heard of a peculiar way of detection using TV waves, not sure if anyone knows about this, but apparently, China has the ability to detect aircraft using CIVILIAN band TV radiowaves.... hahahhahahhha pretty cool isnt it... that would make Dong Fang Ming Zhu in Shanghai one big radar LOL :D (i don't have a source to this so pardon me if its inaccurate heheh =) )
1. It's very complicated to "hide your strength" when watched by Keyhole-satellites
2. Su-37 is the same russian garbage as ever. After very short time you have to buy a new plane, because the old one is technically obsolete or it falls into parts (ask german air force; they have rebuilt their MiG-29s three times in 12 years "active" service).
3. You need to have a BVR-AAM with a "ultra-powerful radar". If not, there will be no dogfight.
4. If you get into dogfight, the much better thrust-to-weight-ratio of the F-22 will make the difference. Only aircraft that can possibly outmaneuver the F-22 is the Typhoon.
5. Some "Chinese fellas" would honestly state that China has submarines diving on the moon

About active defense: Elta is building that stuff into it's F-16s for long times. Israel gets Apaches with far superior ECM systems.

[MIGleader]

hmmm...can you back up any of your statements? the su-37 by far combines a powerful tvc engine with an agile design. its radar is not the same shit in the su-27, nor is its cocpit. it features much mor modern sensors. it can hold fourteen missles opposed to the f-22's 8. the only advantage the f-22 has over it is stealth.
and btw, elta works for china too.

[vincelee]

BARS is the best Russian radar in service, now why don't you go ask the Indians if they like it or not.

as to the questions about training. There are captive rounds and there is DACT. The folks at the FTTC are not only an integral part of Beijing's defense, but also participates in the blue/red exercises.

[adeptitus]

EL/M-2052
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/elm2052aesa.jpg

Note the board in the back says "Suitable for F-15, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, LCA, & Su-30".

Can track 64 targets! ^_^

If I were the PLAAF I'd make it a top priority to obtain this radar technology. It looks better than the Zhuk-ME. =P

[MIGleader]

i think it might be the new radar china is developing for the j-11. pakistan already loaned an f-16 to china.

[BrotherofSnake]

EL/M-2052
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/elm2052aesa.jpg

Note the board in the back says "Suitable for F-15, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, LCA, & Su-30".

Can track 64 targets! ^_^

If I were the PLAAF I'd make it a top priority to obtain this radar technology. It looks better than the Zhuk-ME. =P

Who developed this radar?

[MIGleader]

the isrealis off course

[Chairman Hu]

in exchange for DF-21 tech...

there is NO WAY that the BARS is the best in Russia, got anything to back that up?

Adeptitus, you are right, China has caught up in airframe design, but radar is still the hugest gap...

In fact, what is the radar in the Raptor compared to Russia/China's best?

Thanks for the pic of the EL/M-2052, how bout some data?

[MIGleader]

well, bars is the best, many sources will say that. but some of the new phazotrons like panda will surpass it.

[BrotherofSnake]

In fact, what is the radar in the Raptor compared to Russia/China's best?
AN/APG-77 Radar

The AN/APG-77 radar is the F-22’s primary sensor and is a long-range, rapid-scan, and multi-functional system. A Northrop Grumman-led joint venture with Raytheon is developing the active-element electronically scanned array radar. Northrop Grumman is also responsible for the radar sensor design, software, and systems integration.

The AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array that features a separate transmitter and receiver for each of the antenna's several thousand, finger-sized radiating elements. Most of the mechanical parts common to other radars have been eliminated, thus making the radar more reliable. This type of antenna, which is integrated both physically and electromagnetically with the airframe, provides the frequency agility, low radar cross-section, and wide bandwidth necessary to support the F-22's air dominance mission. The radar is key to the F-22's integrated avionics and sensor capabilities. It will provide pilots with detailed information about multiple threats before the adversary's radar ever detects the F-22.

The AN/APG-77 radar a novel type of electronically scanned phased array. In what is likely to be the most advanced airborne radar in the world, individual transmit and receive modules are located behind each element of the radar array. The transmit function of the solid-state microwave modules supplants the traveling wave tubes used in prior radars like the APQ-164. The active, electronically scanned array (ESA) configuration has a wider transmit bandwidth while requiring significantly less volume and prime power. The system represents about half the weight of an equivalent passive ESA design. Each of the hundreds of individual solid-state devices generates only small amounts of power, but the aggregate for the entire array is substantial.

The F-22 s APG-77 electronically scanned array antenna is composed of several thousand transmit/receive modules, circulators, radiators and manifolds assembled into subarrays and then integrated into a complete array. The baseline design used thousands of hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects to make the numerous radio frequency, digital, and direct current connections between the components and manifolds that make up the subarray. Northrop Grumman Corporation, of Baltimore, MD, has developed an improved manufacturing process for F-22 aircraft radar components. The new process could result in a cost avoidance of nearly $87 million on the planned production run for the aircraft. By replacing the hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects with automated ribbon bond interconnects, the first pass yield of the subarray assembly has been vastly improved.

The AN/APG-77 radar antenna is a elliptical, active electronically scanned antenna array of 2000 transmitter/receive modules which provides agility, low radar cross section and wide bandwidth. The radar is able to sweep 120 degrees of airspace instantaneously. In comparison to the F-15 Strike Eagle's APG-70 radar takes 14 seconds to scan that amount of airspace. The APG-77 is capable of performing this feat by electronically forming multiple radar beams to rapidly search the airspace.

The system exhibits a very low radar cross section, supporting the F-22's stealthy design. Reliability of the all-solid-state system is expected to be substantially better than the already highly reliable F-16 radar, with MTBF predicted at more than 450 hours.

The APG-77 radar offers significant advantages over previous combat radars. Among its most attractive benefits is the integration of agile beam steering. This feature allows a single APG-77 radar to carry out multiple functions, such as searching, tracking, and engaging targets simultaneously. Agile beam steering also enables the radar to concurrently search multiple portions of airspace, while allowing continued tracking of priority targets.

The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR/ESM systems. The AN/APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR/ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22.

The F-22 and its APG-77 radar will also be able to employ better Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). This is accomplished by forming fine beams and by generating a high resolution image of the target by using Inverse Synthetic Aperture radar (ISAR) processing. ISAR uses Doppler shifts caused by rotational changes in the targets position to create a 3D map of the target. The target provides the Doppler shift and not the aircraft illuminating the target. SAR is when the aircraft provides the Doppler shift. The pilot can compare the target with an actual picture radar image stored in the F-22's data base.

globalsecurity

[tphuang]

well, bars is the best, many sources will say that. but some of the new phazotrons like panda will surpass it.
bars is so overrated by the Russian and Indians.

It has a 140-160 km search range against F-16, it can track like around 20 targets and engage less than 10. It's also PAR, not AESA.

The new Elta-2052 is AESA, has some ridiculous range and can track 64 targets.

I read APG-77 has something like a 460 KM search range.

Of course Elta-2052 is better than Zhuk-Me. Zhuk-mse (which is the one offered on su-30mk3) isn't even PAR.

[vincelee]

the Russians currently field Cassergrain and slotted array radars. BARS is one generation gap ahead, being a PAR. Panda is a slotted array radar.

[MIGleader]

do pakistans f-16s feild the elta-2052? i think so, but im not sure.

[tphuang]

the Russians currently field Cassergrain and slotted array radars. BARS is one generation gap ahead, being a PAR. Panda is a slotted array radar.
sokol should also be PAR.

[vincelee]

does sokol actually exist?

anyway, Zhuk-MSE also seems to be a PAR.

PS.

And MiGLeader, why the hell would the Jews sell their most advanced radar to a muslim state? Do they want to commit suicide?

[tphuang]

does sokol actually exist?

anyway, Zhuk-MSE also seems to be a PAR.

PS.

And MiGLeader, why the hell would the Jews sell their most advanced radar to a muslim state? Do they want to commit suicide?
nope, I'm guessing it's still under development, but Zhuk-MSE has finished testing. It really makes you wonder how the Zhuk series is so far behind the bar series. And yeah, MSE is slotted array.

[MIGleader]

does sokol actually exist?

anyway, Zhuk-MSE also seems to be a PAR.

PS.

And MiGLeader, why the hell would the Jews sell their most advanced radar to a muslim state? Do they want to commit suicide?

the isrealis and pakistanis have never had a war, and have never been in huge conflict. jews have 200 nukes, paks have 50. whos should be scared?
miltant? hardly. and the us sold the radar, not israel.

[IDonT]

the isrealis and pakistanis have never had a war, and have never been in huge conflict. jews have 200 nukes, paks have 50. whos should be scared?
miltant? hardly. and the us sold the radar, not israel.


Pakistani volunteers were involved in the Arab Israeli wars. It was only recently that the Pakistani recognized the israeli state.

[MIGleader]

i saidf major conflict. volunteers? spain had em ww2. america had em in the arab iraeli wars.

[sumdud]

I have my doubts now on the stealthiness of the F-22 as "Air-to-air combat would rely on passive detection of transmissions by hostile aircraft, as well as infrared tracking. However, these techniques are of marginal effectiveness against other stealth aircraft, explaining the limited application of stealth to the Advanced Tactical Fighter." (Azn boy's article) and the F-22 has an active radar with a curved @$$. A ground station might not detect it, but a plane can probably detect the F22's wave head on or see its @$$ from behind or on top.:coffee:

FB-22? That's going to be a joke.

J-7s attacking a F22? No way will it win, unless the Raptor is leaving already and you are at Mach 2, single column.

And stop drifting off topic!:off

[Jones Henry]

Now, let us begin our discussion. The F-22 is the biggest threat to the PLAAF and in general, the Chinese military. Is there anything that the PLAAF can do to counter this plane (assuming that Congress decides to allow the production of several squadrons of it)? I am trying to find an article in which I read that a squadron of F-15's (probably the E versions) are trying to "defeat" the F-22. So far, they have had no luck. :eek:


Hmm, thats a tough cookie:( EMP weapons would probobly be a good thing:confused:

[crazyinsane105]

Hmm, thats a tough cookie:( EMP weapons would probobly be a good thing:confused:

EMP weapons? Well, unless they make an airburst version of it. The problem with stealth aircraft is that it's possible to detect them, but guiding missiles TOWARDS the aircraft is a completely different story.

[Totoro]

Perhaps new-old weapons would be used against stealthy planes, if they can be detected but not targeted precisely. Then you'd want to deliver the weapon to that area where you've detected the plane and detonate the weapons across a broad area, something not unlike the old flak barrage that was widely used in ww2. Granted, it'd require tons of such flak rockets and a fair deal of luck but it still beats sending actual planes towards f22, since you know they're gonna be brought down before they can engage the raptor.

[Chairman Hu]

holy crap, you CANT be serious... we are going backwards...?

Flak??? yea but thats too hard, maybe for the nighthawk but...

The Raptor with TVC and change itz speed and manuver out

But still itz a good idea to take down the Nighthawk though

[MIGleader]

perhaps we should make a thread called: how to kill a raptor. in order to kill it, a sukoi must be within close range to use the hms to fire a missle. moe a heat seaker might do, but it would have to be very advanced to see the f-22s small heat trail.

heres an idea: a television missle preprogrammed with a picture if an f-22.

[Totoro]

absolutely, tv guided missiles with some kind of target matching, not unlike the software cruise missiles use, would definitely help. Combined with an ir sensor, it'd go a certain way towards detecting a raptor. Still, you'd need a way to detect where the f22 is, so you can launch the missiles in that area, and you'd probably need more than a couple launched since it'd be pretty broad area. I'm guessing a datalink between all those missiles would help, so they would all know where all the other missiles are and which missile is searching which bit of sky with its optical sensors. I'm guessing on a clear day you'd be able to positively target a raptor up to 10 km distance, perhaps even a bit more if two or more missiles are searching the same area from different angles and are sharing information.

[rommel]

Perhaps new-old weapons would be used against stealthy planes, if they can be detected but not targeted precisely. Then you'd want to deliver the weapon to that area where you've detected the plane and detonate the weapons across a broad area, something not unlike the old flak barrage that was widely used in ww2. Granted, it'd require tons of such flak rockets and a fair deal of luck but it still beats sending actual planes towards f22, since you know they're gonna be brought down before they can engage the raptor.

I hope you're not serious, FLAK !!! Ahem, do you know how much shell you'll need to shoot down 1 plane ??? Do you how hard it's to aim a plane flying at high speed ?? I'll give you some exemple, during World War II, it took 3,343 shot of 88mm FLAK to shot down 1 plane in average. Even with our modern firing control and tracking system, this number can be reduced to 1/5 of the original number, but it will still represent an average of 660 shot per plane. That's wasting money and time. The most effective way is still using interceptor.

[Chairman Hu]

88mm...

you mean German Flaks cannons right?

cuz they suck bad, they ended up destroying Russian tanks on the east

[rommel]

88mm...

you mean German Flaks cannons right?

cuz they suck bad, they ended up destroying Russian tanks on the east

okay, but the destruction power of the 88mm was amazing, the AA frag shell disperse 1,500 shrapnel in a 180m circle. It can destroy most aircraft at 10m with the dispersion range and dommage everything at 180m. It was good ... when you hit... but in this time, aiming was tough, do you how to aim one of thoses guns back in this time ???

BTW, General Erwin Rommel was the first german to use it in AT role back in France in 1940 against at first the Maginot Line and french tank after, he even sank 2 destroyer and 1 auxiliary cruiser with his 88mm. This was before Russia.

[tphuang]

okay, but the destruction power of the 88mm was amazing, the AA frag shell disperse 1,500 shrapnel in a 180m circle. It can destroy most aircraft at 10m with the dispersion range and dommage everything at 180m. It was good ... when you hit... but in this time, aiming was tough, do you how to aim one of thoses guns back in this time ???

BTW, General Erwin Rommel was the first german to use it in AT role back in France in 1940 against at first the Maginot Line and french tank after, he even sank 2 destroyer and 1 auxiliary cruiser with his 88mm. This was before Russia.
again, that's why Rommel was the best general in WWII.

[coolieno99]

"The AN/APG-77 radar a novel type of electronically scanned phased array. In what is likely to be the most advanced airborne radar in the world, individual transmit and receive modules are located behind each element of the radar array. The transmit function of the solid-state microwave modules supplants the traveling wave tubes used in prior radars like the APQ-164. "

The heart of this system is the solid-state microwave modules(use for phase shifting). The solid-state material used is based on galllium arsenide. Gallium arsenide technology is about 30 years old. I think the Japanese had built an experimental computer based on gallium arsenide technology. Most of the time commercial technology usually is ahead of military technology. :coffee:

[Gauntlet]

BTW, General Erwin Rommel was the first german to use it in AT role back in France in 1940 against at first the Maginot Line and french tank after, he even sank 2 destroyer and 1 auxiliary cruiser with his 88mm. This was before Russia.
I dont mean to rain on your parade, but the 88mm were used as AT guns 4 years earlier...in the Spanish Civil War. But this is going to far off topic...

[coolieno99]

This is from an Airforce Magazine article

By Laura M. Colarusso
Times staff writer

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. — Among the F/A-22’s opponents, there’s none more determined than Maj. Robert Garland, whose job is to beat the Raptor, the Air Force’s most advanced fighter jet.

It’s a tough job. He flies an F-15C.

He’s never won.

.... etc ....

Same thing happened during Cope India 2004( It was a training exercise/aerial wargame between the Indian Air Force and U.S. Air Force). The IAF's Su-30K(not the latest MKI, Indians refused to entered it) "shot down" the USAF's F-15Cs most of the time(some say 90%)....:coffee:

[Gauntlet]

But AFAIK, the F-15 were severely hampered, with both a numerical disadvantage, and the thing that they werent allowed to use AIM-120s.

[coolieno99]

But AFAIK, the F-15 were severely hampered, with both a numerical disadvantage, and the thing that they werent allowed to use AIM-120s.

Both the F-15Cs and Su-30ks detect each other at about the same time. But the F-15Cs radars were fouled up by multiple reflections(clutters) by the surrounding mountains(Gwalior ranges). Somehow the Russian radars are better at filtering out the clutters.(or maybe the Indians just turn off their radars and just relied on their IRSTs) :coffee:

[tphuang]

Both the F-15Cs and Su-30ks detect each other at about the same time. But the F-15Cs radars were fouled up by multiple reflections(clutters) by the surrounding mountains(Gwalior ranges). Somehow the Russian radar