Sino-Japanese Wars

[FriedRiceNSpice]

The conflict between China and Japan have started far before the second World War. You could say the roots of the conflict lie in Kublai Khan's failed invasion of Japan in the 13th century. That attempt left Japan with a mistrust of mainland asians. China and Japan also fought over Korea in the 16th century, in which the Chinese repelled the Japanese samaurai. The actual first Sino-Japanese war started in 1894, also fought over Korea. This was won by Japan. Japan would occupy Manchuria in 1931, and the second Sino-Japanese war, the one we are most familiar with, started in 1939.

[MIGleader]

It wasn't because of mainland distrust.
japan needed raw materials and workers to supply it's
new industry, but it had none, so it invaded china to get some.
so you can blame the westerners that started japans modernization...
they would pay for it during the war.

[T-U-P]

i've heard somewhere that the japanese are originally chinese... it said that after the Qin emperor ruled the whole china, he wanted to find medicines that would make them un-dieable, so he sent 100 little boys and 100 little girls to find such medicine, but those kids eventually got to japan (the island) and established a civilization there. don't know if it's true tho, just heard it off some tv shows in china.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

i've heard somewhere that the japanese are originally chinese... it said that after the Qin emperor ruled the whole china, he wanted to find medicines that would make them un-dieable, so he sent 100 little boys and 100 little girls to find such medicine, but those kids eventually got to japan (the island) and established a civilization there. don't know if it's true tho, just heard it off some tv shows in china.

That is what I've heard and read too. However, from what I understand, there already were people living on Japan. The Qin explorers introduced the orginal Japanese to Chinese culture and rice-cultivation techniques (originally the Japanese were fisherfolk) and intermarried with the local population.

[Liberator]

i've heard somewhere that the japanese are originally chinese... it said that after the Qin emperor ruled the whole china, he wanted to find medicines that would make them un-dieable, so he sent 100 little boys and 100 little girls to find such medicine, but those kids eventually got to japan (the island) and established a civilization there. don't know if it's true tho, just heard it off some tv shows in china.

In China, there is a legend. During what dynasty dunno.

The emperor of China sent 1000 men and women to the deserted island which is now called Japan. And the 2000 Chinese men and women settled there to claim new lands for China and the emperor. But eventually, the 2 lands (China and the island now called Japan) lost contact. Therefore, people in the island that is now called Japan claim to be a country.

- Its only a legend, maybe its real or maybe its false.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

There have been excavations to show that humans have lived in Japan since 35,000 BC, and there have been civilization in Japan since 10,000 BC.

[MIGleader]

why would the chinese make a legend like that!!! that wouuld be saying their related to the japs!!

[Liberator]

why would the chinese make a legend like that!!! that wouuld be saying their related to the japs!!

Dunno.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

You don't just decide to make a legend one day. Its not like some Chinese guy was sitting around and said, "I have a new legend! The Japanese were originally Chinese explorers!" Legends are passed down for countless generations, and most likely that legend evolved during a time in which China and Japan weren't mortal enemies.

[vincelee]

and then there is the Korean exile theory.

[President]

and then there is the Korean exile theory.
you are right this time, vincelee. two korean told me their country was found by ancient chinese, i was suprised by them. they say their korean high school history course told them. i am not kidding. :eek: and they said they wrote chinese before korean character was created . :eek: and they just read chinese newspaper in front of me :eek:
http://www.slu.edu/organizations/ksa/History.htm
http://loki.stockton.edu/~gilmorew/consorti/1deasia.htm
see where is korea in Han Dynasty map
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/china/early_imperial_china/han.html
see where is korea in Yuan dynasty map
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/china/later_imperial_china/yuan.html
see where is korea in The Three Kingdoms map
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/china/early_imperial_china/threekingdoms.html
see korea in Chin Dynasty
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/china/early_imperial_china/chin.html
see korea in Ming Dynasty
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/china/later_imperial_china/ming.html
see korea in Qing Dynasty
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/china/later_imperial_china/qing.html
:eek:

[Neko]

The Koreans only recently (within the past several decades) created their own phoenetic script, as the Chinese characters, which although nice, did not emobdy the Korean language. In order to remedy this, the ruler of Korea at the time (I don't recall his name) chartered the current writing system of Korea.


Also, in the northernmost sections of Japan, there is another civilization of people, akin to the Native American population of the midwestern US States, which are treated moderately by the current Japanese government, but were treated poorly in the past. They were there long before the current Japanese people. When I recall the name, I'll let you know... but an odd quirk about them is that their females tattooed their eyelids and lips to make them appear bigger, as a mark of beauty.

[PiSigma]

from what i heard, people try to trace japanese genes and found about 1/3 have chinese genes and a huge number have korean genes. and the koreans have genes from mongols.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

From what I've read, Korea was a seperate kingdom from China until the Han dynasty. Then, the Han people conquered Korea. Settlers from Han China settled in Korea, and the two peoples intermarried. Later, Mongols who have raided and settled in Korea also intermarried with the local populace.

[T-U-P]

politics back in those days are way more straight forward. it's basically: if you don't do what i say, im gonna destory you with my superior army. and no one else in the world would care if such a small kingdom is destoried.

[Obcession]

Internal politics are way more complicated though, more than the Western Nations.

You have to be very clever to survive in the political game.

[camo]

The Koreans only recently (within the past several decades) created their own phoenetic script, as the Chinese characters, which although nice, did not emobdy the Korean language. In order to remedy this, the ruler of Korea at the time (I don't recall his name) chartered the current writing system of Korea.


Also, in the northernmost sections of Japan, there is another civilization of people, akin to the Native American population of the midwestern US States, which are treated moderately by the current Japanese government, but were treated poorly in the past. They were there long before the current Japanese people. When I recall the name, I'll let you know... but an odd quirk about them is that their females tattooed their eyelids and lips to make them appear bigger, as a mark of beauty.

The people that you are talking about are called the Ainu.

[sumdud]

The Chinese and Japanese have always been enemies with each other..........
But if it wasn't for WW2, though, we would be much better friends today.
Japan needed resources, but it was their actions that got the Chinese to forever hate them.
(Stupid #@$%$^$% Meiji. Had to say that Japanese are superior!!!!!! :mad: )

As for the kid-to-Japan theory, I believe it, but I don't know about the numbers. There are Japanese there already by then, though.(These Japanese left the Chinese and other Asians earlier)
you are right this time, vincelee. two korean told me their country was found by ancient chinese, i was suprised by them. they say their korean high school history course told them. i am not kidding. and they said they wrote chinese before korean character was created . and they just read chinese newspaper in front of me
I believe this. All Asians were once together. And since the Koreans and Chinese are next to each other, it's not impossible that we were one race once. Plus, why are our surnames interchangable? I like the Korean alphabet and the way Korean works, though.

[sino52C]

Many koreans spend time learning about chinese (some of my korean friends are better at reading than I am....)

[Washington]

China marks Japan's WWII defeat

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4210654.stm


Peace monument

Some 200 foreign veteran soldiers also joined Chinese wartime generals for the unveiling of a peace monument in Chaoyang Park.

They signed the Beijing Peace Declaration, which is to be written on the monument in five languages along with signatures of the veterans.

"The wars of 60 years ago were bad enough so any war in the future would be pretty bad I would think, and I hope it never happens," veteran US pilot Glen Beneda said at the ceremony.

Japan formally surrendered on board the USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay on 2 September, 1945, bringing an end to World War II.

The formal surrender of China by Japan happened at the Central Military Academy in Nanjing on 9 September.

China believes as many as 35 million people were killed during Japan's 14-year occupation of the country.

[patriot]

From what I've read, Korea was a seperate kingdom from China until the Han dynasty. Then, the Han people conquered Korea. Settlers from Han China settled in Korea, and the two peoples intermarried. Later, Mongols who have raided and settled in Korea also intermarried with the local populace.


The first account of Korea found by China was 1300BC. China first conquered Korea in the Qin dynasty not the Han dynasty. But lost the terrority due to the civil war between Liu Bang and Xiang Yu. We ruled Korea from that time on til the 450s when they rebelled. Then, we tried to regain Korea during the Sui dynasty but failed. From there, they had another 600 years of independent until got conquered by the Mongols. We had control of Japan all the time until the First Sino-Japanese war in which we lost both Taiwan and Korea.

Japan? You mean Korea, right?

[Defense]

Marco Polo Bridge Incident

Marco Polo Bridge Incident (July 7, 1937), is the conflict between Chinese and Japanese troops near the Marco Polo Bridge outside of Beijing, which developed into the warfare between the two countries that was the prelude to the Pacific side of World War II.

In 1931 Japan occupied the former north-eastern Chinese region of Dongbei (Northeast Provinces) and established the puppet state of Manchukuo, spending large sums to develop the region's industry. This violation of China's territorial integrity produced a growing anti-Japanese movement in China. By 1937 this movement had grown so strong that the Chinese Communists and Nationalists agreed to end their civil war and form a United Front against further Japanese aggression.

On the night of July 7, 1937, a small Japanese force on maneuvers near the Marco Polo Bridge demanded entry to the tiny walled town of Wanping in order to search for one of their soldiers. The Chinese garrison in the town refused the Japanese entry; a shot was heard; and the two sides began firing. The Chinese government, under strong anti-Japanese pressure, refused to make any concessions in the negotiation of the dispute. The Japanese, although not wanting to be involved in a land war in China that could leave them vulnerable to Soviet forces in the north, also maintained their position, fearing the new Chinese United Front and the growing anti-Japanese movement. As a result, the conflict, which no one seemed to desire, continued to grow.

As the fighting spread to central China, the Japanese scored successive victories. Under mounting public pressure not to retreat, the Japanese government decided to seek a quick victory in China, and the two sides plunged into what was to become World War II.

[KYli]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lugou_Bridge

Japan had occupied Manchuria in 1931 and had created a nominally independent state of Manchukuo with Henry Puyi, the last monarch of the Qing Dynasty, as its sovereign. That state is widely regarded to have been a puppet government with real power concentrated in the hands of the Japanese, which constituted the only significant military forces in Manchuria. Although the Kuomintang and the international community refused to recognize the legality of the Japanese occupation, a truce had been negotiated in 1931.

At the end of 1932, the Japanese Kantogun army invaded Chahar Province. The Kuomintang's 29th Army, led by General Song Zheyuan and armed only with spears and obsolete rifles, resisted the attack, in the Defense of the Great Wall. The province fell to the Japanese after their victory, therefore areas to the west of Beijing were under Japanese sphere of influence.

In 1933, Japan annexed Rehe (also known as Jehol) using the security of Manchukuo as a pretext. Consequently all areas north of the Great Wall and hence north of Beijing fell to Japan. He Yingqin (何應欽) and Umezu Yoshijiro (1888-1949) (梅津美治郎) signed an agreement on June 9, 1935, known as the He-Umezu Agreement recognizing Japanese occupation of Hebei and Chahar. Later that year, Japan established yet another puppet government, the East Ji Anti-Communist Autonomous Administration (冀東防共自治政府 abbreviated as East Ji Autonomous Government 冀東自治政府). As a result, at the start of 1937 areas occupied by Japanese surrounded Beijing at north, west and east.

Japanese installations of various puppet governments were deliberate attempts to annex the whole of China by nibbling. The puppet government at Nanjing with Wang Jingwei as head was another obvious example.

[edit]
Geography
Lugou Bridge (蘆溝橋 lugouqiao) is located in Fengtai (豐台 feng1 tai2), a suburb south of Beijing. The bridge straddles the Yongding River (永定江). It is also known as the Marco Polo Bridge because the bridge was believed to be described in the works of Marco Polo. Lugouqiao (蘆溝橋 lú gōu qiáo) literally means "Reed-gutter Bridge".

Four strategic posts secured Beijing from the outside:

To the East: Tongzhou Town (通州鎮)
To the Northwest: Nankou Town (南口鎮) at Changping Prefecture (昌平縣xian)
To the South: Fengtai Town (豐台鎮)
To the Southwest: Lugou Bridge at Wanping Prefecture (宛平縣) where Wanping Town (宛平鎮) was located.
The Lugou Bridge was the choke point of the Pinghan Railway (Beijing-Wuhan), and guarded the only passage linking Beijing to KMT-controlled area from the south. Nanyuan Town (南宛鎮) is located between Wanping town and Beijing.

At the start of the battle, the Japanese controlled the East, Northwest and South posts as well as the west end of the Lugou Bridge. The KMT held the east end of the bridge. If the bridge fell, Beijing would be completely cut off and easily captured.


Strategic appraisal
China: At the time of the war, the Chinese armies (KMT and CCP) were mostly infantry equipped with rifles, spears and sabers. Some soldiers were recruited from peasants and local gangsters, thus undertrained and underequipped compared to the Japanese Imperial Army. Outnumbering the enemy and exploiting the battlefield landscape to their advantages had been their only ways to defeat the Japanese.

Japan: Subduing the cities guaranteed the fall of the north of the Huang He portion of the North China Plain, since the Japanese mechanized divisions were formidable against the Chinese armies, which had virtually no aircraft or any anti-tank weaponry.

Phase I

Chinese troops defending the Marco Polo Bridge.Beginning late June 1937, the Japanese army (several hundreds) deployed at the west end of the bridge was practicing while Kuomintang forces, garrisoned in Wanping Town, watched closely. At dawn on 7 July, the Japanese army telegraphed the KMT forces saying that a soldier was missing and believed to be hiding inside the town. The Japanese demanded that its army should enter the town to search for the missing soldier, who was later found unharmed. There are some disputes among historians over the incident with some historians believing that this was an unintentional accident while others believing that the entire incident was fabricated by the Kantogun in order to provide a pretext for the invasion of central China. Right-wing Japanese historians suggest that the incident was staged by the Chinese Communist Party, who hoped that the incident would lead to a war of attrition between the Japanese army and the Kuomintang, weakening both of the CCP's foes.

Colonel Ji denied the request backed by his superior, General Song. In the evening of 7 July, Matsui gave Ji an ultimatum that KMT troops must let Japanese troops enter the town within the next hour or the town would be fired upon. The Japanese artillery had already aimed at the town when the ultimatum was sent. At midnight 8 July, Japanese artillery units started bombarding the town while the infantry with tanks marched across the bridge at dawn. With orders from Song, Ji led the KMT forces of about 1000 to defend at all cost. The Japanese army partially overran the bridge and vicinity in the afternoon. KMT forces, after reinforcement from nearby units, outnumbered the Japanese and retook it completely the next day. The Japanese army then halted the attack and offered to negotiate, marking the end of Phase I. Nevertheless the Japanese Army remained concentrated at the west end of the bridge.


Phase II
During the meeting of all senior KMT officers of the 24th Army in Beijing on 12 July, Qin insisted that KMT forces must continue defending and resist any temptation to negotiate with the Japanese, whom he did not trust. Zhang in turn argued the incident on 7 July could still be settled by negotiation. Song then sent Zhang as KMT representative to Tianjin to meet General Hashimoto, the commander of all Japanese forces around the cities of Beijing and Tianjin and in Chahar and Rehe Provinces.

At the beginning Hashimoto told Zhang that the Japanese hoped the incident on 7 July could be settled peacefully. Zhang was encouraged by his friendly gesture and telegraphed Song that any more Kuomintang forces around Beijing would be viewed as an escalation and anger the Japanese. However Song thought Hashimoto was only buying time since he received various reconnaissance reports indicating increasing accumulation of Japanese forces from Manchuria and Korea around Beijing. As the recent Chinese victory relied on outnumbering the opponent, he transferred Zhao's 132nd Division accompanied by Qin to a station at Nanyuan Town which was between the bridge and Beijing to keep up the pressure from concentration of Japanese forces. Similar to most KMT and CPC (Communist Party of China) forces, the 29th Army was equipped with only rifles and just enough mortars and heavy machine guns, compared to better armed, trained and commanded Japanese troops whose tanks the Chinese armies still did not have any weapon capable of destroying. It should, however, also be noted that the KMT leader, Chiang Kai-Shek held a grudge against the 29th Army due to the fact it was made up primarily of his opponent Feng Yuxiang's troops, and did not provide sufficient support.

The Japanese promised not to invade Beijing and Tianjin upon agreement of all following terms:

1) The KMT must wipe out all anti-Japanese organizations and halt all anti-Japanese activities inside the cities.
2) The KMT must take all responsibilities of the incident on 7 July.
3) Song, not any other inferior officer of the 29th Army, must apologize.


Zhang accepted the first term and the commander of the battalion under Ji's command was to be relieved as an agreement to the second. However Zhang told Hashimoto that he could not decide on behalf of Song, thus could not agree on the third term at the time. He then returned to Beijing. Hashimoto also hinted that the Japanese would preferred Zhang as the commander of KMT troops around the city. As soon as Zhang left, the Japanese launched a full-scale attack on Beijing.

Three days after Zhang headed for the city, the bridge and Wanping Town fell to the Japanese. Nanyuan Town fell on the next day with both divisions (37th and 132nd) shattered. Zhao was mortally wounded on the battlefield and Qin retreated with the remnants back to the city. In the evening after the fall of Nanyuan Town, Zhang finally arrived (As he had to pass through enemy lines to reach the city.). Several days later, Song relieved himself of all non-military posts and appointed Zhang to take his posts and the mayorship of Beijing. Qin and Song then led the 29th Army out of the city, which was going to be surrounded within hours and left Zhang with virtually no troops. Japanese armies entered the city on 18 August without much resistance and installed Zhang as mayor. However Zhang felt he was betrayed and left the city secretly a week later.


Aftermath
With the fall of Beijing on 29 July and Tianjin on 30th, the North China Plain was helpless against Japanese mechanized divisions who occupied it by the end of the year. The Chinese armies (KMT and CPC) were on constant retreat until the hard fought Chinese victory at Tai er zhuang.

There are some disputes among historians over the KMT's handling of the encroachment of Japanese troops upon Beijing, with some believing that Zhang and Song secretly cooperated with Zhang's appointment to non-military posts in Beijing. Song and Qin could then safely retreat from the city to retain the fighting ability of the 29th Army. Others believe that the Japanese completely sold Zhang out as they still invaded the cities, even though the KMT agreed to all terms. Zhang was vilified relentlessly by the Chinese press, some of which (like that of Shanghai) reviled him as the traitor of the country. Upon arrival at Nanjing he apologized publicly. Since he later died fighting against the Japanese, the KMT pardoned Zhang for his activities in Beijing.

[adeptitus]

The first account of Korea found by China was 1300BC. China first conquered Korea in the Qin dynasty not the Han dynasty. But lost the terrority due to the civil war between Liu Bang and Xiang Yu. We ruled Korea from that time on til the 450s when they rebelled. Then, we tried to regain Korea during the Sui dynasty but failed. From there, they had another 600 years of independent until got conquered by the Mongols. We had control of Japan all the time until the First Sino-Japanese war in which we lost both Taiwan and Korea.


Hmmm...

Qin might've warred with the early Korean Kingdom(s), but it was Han Dynasty that destryed Gojoseon and occupied them under the Chinese commanderies of Lelang, Lintun, Xuantu, and Zhenfan in 108 BC.

(Han) China did not rule over all of the commandries and territories to 450 AD. The Korean chiefdoms often rebelled and forced the commandery's boundries and administration to move west-ward. Ultimately, they were conquered by the rising Korean Kingdom of Goguryeo by 311 AD.

Goguryeo Kingdom marked the maximum power/expansion of Korea, and was later destroyed by Tang-Silla alliance.

[mindreader]

The conflict between China and Japan have started far before the second World War. You could say the roots of the conflict lie in Kublai Khan's failed invasion of Japan in the 13th century. That attempt left Japan with a mistrust of mainland asians. China and Japan also fought over Korea in the 16th century, in which the Chinese repelled the Japanese samaurai. The actual first Sino-Japanese war started in 1894, also fought over Korea. This was won by Japan. Japan would occupy Manchuria in 1931, and the second Sino-Japanese war, the one we are most familiar with, started in 1939.

You are joking right? The Chinese and Japanese fought no less than 2 wars before 1894, not including your little samurai action (or like Wo Kou action) in the 16th century.

The first was during the Tang Dynasty, in which Japan got a first hand taste of what a true superpower is like. Thoroughly humiliated, they copied everything from the Tang and did not dare to step off their little islands for over 1000 years.

Which brings up an interesting proposition. The reason the Japs invaded again merely some 300 years later after their defeat by the Ming Dynasty was because the Ming didn't crush them hard enough. Otherwise they would have stayed on their islands another 1000 years.

[Snaykew]

From what I've read, Korea was a seperate kingdom from China until the Han dynasty. Then, the Han people conquered Korea. Settlers from Han China settled in Korea, and the two peoples intermarried. Later, Mongols who have raided and settled in Korea also intermarried with the local populace.

I'm not sure, but I think there was something like a "commonwealth" nation set up. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were also such nations under China I *THINK*. Tribute nations or something is what they are called. A history book at school said France ended up taking those three mentioned from China and Japan took Korea. Also Russia took land in the northern parts of China IIRC. A result of the Boxer Rebellion or so it said. Dates are a bit confusing.

It's not only Korea who used Chinese, but Vietnam did also until 16th century AD when they created their own.