Gunman murders 32 at VA Tech

[bd popeye]

An armed person gunned down and killed 32 persons also wounding 21 at Virginina Tech University in Blackburg VA today.

Tragedy. A horrible tragedy. My heartfelt prayers go out to the victims and their families.

Presently the Federal government is ruling out a terroist attack. Honestly, is this not just another form of terrosim?

Tragic.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266310,00.html

BLACKSBURG, Va. — At least 32 people are confirmed dead and at least another 21 are wounded after a shooting at Virginia Tech University Monday morning, federal law enforcement officials told FOX News.

Campus police said there was only one shooter and he is now dead. They are unsure if the shooter was a student and it was unclear if he was shot by police or took his own life.

"The university was struck today with a tragedy of monumental proportions," Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said during a press conference shortly after noon. "The university is shocked and horrified that this would befall our campus ... I cannot begin to convey my own personal sense of loss over this senselessness of such an incomprehensible and heinous act."

It was the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history.

Steger said school officials are notifying victims' next of kin, and state police and the FBI are still investigating the various crime scenes. They are still trying to identify all the victims. The university will set up counseling centers for students and faculty.

[Neutral Zone]

Horrible news.

My brother lives in Lynchburg which is about 2 hours drive from Blacksburg. He's a big fan of VTU's college football team and is on that campus quite regularly. He says the whole area is just in a state of total shock. :(

[swimmerXC]

An armed person gunned down and killed 32 persons also wounding 21 at Virginina Tech University in Blackburg VA today.

Tragedy. A horrible tragedy. My heartfelt prayers go out to the victims and their families.

Presently the Federal government is ruling out a terroist attack. Honestly, is this not just another form of terrosim?

Tragic.

i was there on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday
I was about to consider this as a college b/c it's the best engineering school in this state, but I'm guessing parents want me to go to UIUC or UofT now :(
such a waste too, i know so many friends there and their football team kicks butt

[bd popeye]

Swimmer, I'm happy you were not their at VA Tech today...

This is so tragic...

On Fox news they are reporting that the gunman chained the doors to the dormitory shut. An certain act of pre-meditated murder.

For those of you outside of the US VA Tech is one of the very best engineering universities in the US. It is also a tops football team.

Such a tragedy.

[Scratch]

An armed person gunned down and killed 32 persons also wounding 21 at Virginina Tech University in Blackburg VA today.
Strange, seeing it again and again and again. Just need to read the first words: school/university, killed and a death toll of 10+. And I absolutely know the location must be the US. And still peaople want to be able to acces guns even more easily ...

Tragedy. A horrible tragedy. My heartfelt prayers go out to the victims and their families.
Fully agree, so sorry for families/friends.

Presently the Federal government is ruling out a terroist attack. Honestly, is this not just another form of terrosim?
Frankly, absolutely no. That guy was a bad criminal/ looser / idiot. But for sure not a terrorist. Calling everybody who (severely) harms you a terrorist just makes the word useless.

[bd popeye]

Frankly, absolutely no. That guy was a bad criminal/ looser / idiot. But for sure not a terrorist. Calling everybody who (severely) harms you a terrorist just makes the word useless.

Scratch, I agree with you 100%. I was trying to stimulate discussion. The person that commited this crime is a criminal. And he's dead now. Thank goodness.

[Scratch]

Do you already know what kind of weapon(s) were used? Or who that person was?

[bd popeye]

Do you already know what kind of weapon(s) were used? Or who that person was?

Fox News is reporting the gunman had two 9mm. I heard someone else say, unoffically, the shooter had two Glock 9mm. It is believed the shooter was an estranged boyfreind of a female student. I'm not sure if the gunman was a student.

[Gollevainen]

How many has to die untill USA starts to conduct rational gun-policy??:( :(

[bd popeye]

How many has to die untill USA starts to conduct rational gun-policy??:( :(

The consitution of the US would have to be changed. That's more than likely not going to happen in my lifetime..


http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


I don't think it has anything to do with gun control. It has to do with responsible gun ownership. This includes the various states conducting tougher standards for those purchashing a gun. Which could include better background checks and probally a pyscicological profife of potential gun buyers.

The is presently a background check (police & FBI) of potential gun buyers. Plus there is a waiting period before the weapon may be finally purchsed.

If any nation decided to invade the US. They would find a very well armed citizenry. There are over 300,000,000 registered guns etc in the US. Plus, I'm sure, countless millions of illegal guns and other weapons.

[fishhead]

I am not sure if he is a Chinese, or an East Asian, probably he is. And I am not surprised for that.

Different from western mass shooters, who are more emotional driven, they're more cold blood and cold minded. We see it from the Chai Vang's incident.

Further early, a Chinese student set the first example for East Asian's mass shooting. Dr. Lu Gang, a Chinese student, executed all the people he intended to kill in the matter of minutes, in different campus buildings. He planed the routes, timing, even how he reloads his guns. Fortunately he didn't kill anyone not involved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Lu

American police are far less trained to handle that kind of shooting, I think. The mass are less educated as well for this. In that case, you need to fight out, not run, to reduce the causalty.

[Scratch]

:confused: What are you trying to tell ... ?
Do you think he was east asian just because it seems it was rather fast? From what I know so far, the incident took some time. Anyway, really strange assumption.

If you're a student in a class-room, how are you going to fight a gunman. Throw pencils at him? Or if you mean the police, what do you suppose it to do, shoot at everybody moving? On a campus with several thousand persons.
I would imagine the US police to be trained quiet well on those things (given how often such things happen)
Anyway, do you think US police puts it's emphasis on incidents where they fight old people in slow-mo? Of course they are trained to act fast in action, as ever police unit around the world.

Sorry, but I absolutely don't get your point.

[fishhead]

He is probably an Esat Asian, and the way his shooting is not "shoot at everybody moving", no. He is obviously conducting seek and execute massacre, otherwise you won't see such high death causalty.

It's obviously well-planed and cold-blood executed, two shooting inciddents happends hours apart. The gunman is not panic or has not much emotion there, he just blew the head of anybody he found.

[swimmerXC]

Swimmer, I'm happy you were not their at VA Tech today...

This is so tragic...

On Fox news they are reporting that the gunman chained the doors to the dormitory shut. An certain act of pre-meditated murder.

For those of you outside of the US VA Tech is one of the very best engineering universities in the US. It is also a tops football team.

Such a tragedy.

thanks, i called all my friends there, some of them were in the exact building when the the shooting started and the teacher hid them in locked room until the SWAT came another one was just exiting his math class and ran for it back to his dorms...

the campus is really nice but it's such a tragically that that there's VTech been the news with murders, i mean in august 2006 VT was lock down because a criminal escaped and killed 4 or 5.... it's a really nice place surrounded by the blue ridge mountains and very beautiful campus

it's also kind a ironic that there was a bomb threat on friday to that school but after searching the cops left and there weren't barely any cop cars around, they should of left some extra patrol cars around for the weekend and weekd

[bd popeye]

I am not sure if he is a Chinese, or an East Asian, probably he is. And I am not surprised for that.



Huh??:confused: The gunman has not been identified. There was a picture posted of an Asian man in handcuffs on the ground at VA Tech. As reported by Fox news he was an reporter that refuse to stop asking the local police questions while they were in the performance of their duties. He was asked to stop asking questions. He refused. Was arrested. Taken to a local police station. Not charged and released.

[fishhead]

"Sky also reported one witness describing a gunman as Asian, wearing a vest with an "ungodly" amount of ammunition, firing at will. The student newspaper has quoted a victim who described the shooter as an Asian male in his twenties wearing a maroon hat and a black coat."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23392898-details/32+dead+on+Virginia+campus+in+worst+mass+shooting+ in+US+history/article.do

[fishhead]

And the way his shooting, which is the execution. You really need some heroism at this time from some victims:

"From what I heard, he chained up some of the doors so people couldn't get in and he basically was just going to every classroom trying to get in, and just started shooting inside classrooms," Jenkins said.

One of his friends was in a Norris classroom targeted by the gunman, Jenkins said.

"He was very fortunate," Jenkins said. "He said every single person in the room was shot, killed and was in the ground. He laid on the ground with everyone … he played dead and he was OK."

Flinchum confirmed that some of the Norris Hall doors were chained from the inside.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266374,00.html

[swimmerXC]

i have a conversation that is saved on MSN i had with a friend who lost a friend during the shootings and kinda describe the shootings.. for obvious reasons and confidential reasons i cannot post it on here, but if you want to read some it PM me..
http://www.collegemedia.com/

[The_Zergling]

This is indeed a tragedy... albeit, one that is not entirely surprising.

I think one of the most disturbing parts of this mass killing is the fact that the weapons used could all be acquired using legal means. It's arguable that any gun law that could have been passed in the United States (given the "you'll get my guns when you pry them out of my cold dead fingers mindset") wouldn't have made any difference.

It's easy to buy the weapons used. He had no criminal record, and probably passed the background check easily. Experience tells us that head cases have a way of getting weapons regardless of how tough checks are.

Gun control is dead in America. There is a reason we have one of (if not the) highest murder rates in all civilized industrial countries. But there are millions of guns out there, and that will not change unless we have an authoritarian government that happens to be anti-gun.

The killings will continue. I just hope that the tragedy will all make us take a step back, think about what we find important and inalienable, and be thankful for what we do have.

[Scratch]

Fishhead, I still don't get what you wanna say.
Do you want to imply that east asians are natural born killers ??
The fact that people who feel themselves to be seen as loosers or mistreated or whatever by the society and therefore want to take bloody revange with preplanned actions, just intended to effectively kill many people, is nothing were ordinary asians are "better" at.
You don't need any kind of personal honer or whatever for this, a weired brain of a total insane madman is enough.
On a campus with several thousand persons, it's not all that hard to kill 30+ if you are ill enough, have enough ammo and time without being iterferred with.

[fishhead]

Where did I say that?

I simply point out the killer with an East Asian background will act differently from western mass shooters.

[Roger604]

It's confirmed:

The shooter is Asian. Probably Chinese.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=67f_1176750363

[renmin]

Hey Roger, how do you know he is Chinese? There are many different races from Asia. He could be korean Japanese, vietnamese, etc. It is only confirmed the guy is Asian.

To BdPopeye: You stated earlier that the constitution will have to be changed for gun control. Not true. Constitution only refers to the right to bare arms in a militia when 16 not the right to have a gun. Often the wo are mixed up.

[bd popeye]

To BdPopeye: You stated earlier that the constitution will have to be changed for gun control. Not true. Constitution only refers to the right to bare arms in a militia when 16 not the right to have a gun. Often the wo are mixed up.

I was answering Golly's post. Trying to read his mind. Many Europenas do not undersatnd why there are so many murders and incidents like this in the US. Perhaps I was making it to simple.

Read this post by Zerling. It explains well guns in the USA.

This is indeed a tragedy... albeit, one that is not entirely surprising.

I think one of the most disturbing parts of this mass killing is the fact that the weapons used could all be acquired using legal means. It's arguable that any gun law that could have been passed in the United States (given the "you'll get my guns when you pry them out of my cold dead fingers mindset") wouldn't have made any difference.

It's easy to buy the weapons used. He had no criminal record, and probably passed the background check easily. Experience tells us that head cases have a way of getting weapons regardless of how tough checks are.

Gun control is dead in America. There is a reason we have one of (if not the) highest murder rates in all civilized industrial countries. But there are millions of guns out there, and that will not change unless we have an authoritarian government that happens to be anti-gun.

The killings will continue. I just hope that the tragedy will all make us take a step back, think about what we find important and inalienable, and be thankful for what we do have.

There are many many laws in the US concering "gun control". But the carnage continues. Tragic.

Roger..happy to read your post!

[szbd]

One day Americans should only give vote for who insist on banning all guns for congress men. Then the constitution can be changed. 32 people killed! two 9mm? He must really took his time and fired in great accuracy that not only one bullet hit a people but also hit at the right place to kill him.

[bd popeye]

I just heard on Fox news>> Geraldo Rivera of Fox news reports the gunman was a 23 year old exchange student from China.

Moderators note, SDF members, If this statement is true we will not allow this thread to get out of hand. This sad incident will be major news worldwide for some time to come. Please keep the discussion civil, intelligent and within the rules of this forum. Any sort of racist trolling, flamming or country bashing will be dealt with.

Thank you

bd popeye super moderator

[Jeff Head]

How many has to die untill USA starts to conduct rational gun-policy??:( :(Sorry Goll, but in this nation (the US), where 80 million people own over 350 million guns, and with a tradition of gun ownership and self defense responsibility resting with the citizens of the nation, the issue is not really about gun laws.

Gun laws do not help. This guy broke dozens of gun laws today when he did what he did.

I am a very big 2nd amendment advocate (surprized?). This guy needed hot lead flying back in his direction as soon as possible after he started his rampage. People who are dodging bullets very quickly become less accurate and less efficient killers themselves. In my estimation, and based on our heritage, more people, common citizens need to be trained and armed so they can take responsibility for their own safety.

As it was, he was operating with impunity in a so-called gun free zone...where the only people armed were LEOs who could not be there where he was for many minutes...and himself.

I do not want to start an arguement or huge debate on this issue because it is not what this forum is about, but the shooter broke all siorts of gun laws today and killed innocents. Gun laws do not work in this environment IMHO...they contribute exponentially to the problem.

That's the truth of this situation and is something that, as popeye pointed out, is clearly articulated in the US constitution. Anyhow...just a couple of comments to show that the debate here in America is no where near resolved, nor, as Popeye stated, will it be in the near future.

I have taught all five of my kids to defend themselves with firearms. As adults they seek to live in parts of the country where they can have conceal carry permits because they take their own self defense seriously. It is my own considered opinion that the more of that we have the better. Such incidents would end quickly if that were the case...with a lot less innocent death IMHO.

I know many people from other cultures may not agree and I respect that...but here in the US that culture is rich, and deep, and in many places and states, will not end any time soon.

[bd popeye]

I have taught all five of my kids to defend themselves with firearms.

Me also. I use to take my sons in the desert in San Diego county to go "plinking"..

My daughter has never been shooting.

I no longer own any firearms.

Plinking= shooting at tin cans, bottles trash etc...

[Jeff Head]

I just heard on Fox news>> Geraldo Rivera of Fox news reports the gunman was a 23 year old exchange student from China.Also now being reported that the serial numbers on these weapons .22s and 9 mms were ground off...obliterated.

Apparently the VISA was out of Shanghai and he came here in August.

I do not believe that that is necessarily anything of note...but the ground off serial numbers is disturbing information...along with the accuracy and highly lethal nature of his shooting, and his chaining doors shut to keep people in his killing field. It implies significant things about his capability...wherever he originally hailed from.

Other reports indicate that there was some kind of "love" triangle involving his girlfriend at the dorms and a Resident Assistant. but who knows?

Probably be some time before we have all the details of what happened and where he came from and what his background is.

Horrible, horrible tragedy.

[tphuang]

yeah, one of my friends from work just graduated this past year from VA Tech, he was pretty crushed I think.
Really sad event.

[fishhead]

Well, as a Chinese myself, I don't think I hold the biase against Chinese or East Asian.

But from the deadly way of shooting and cold-mind method, I already guessed it right. That guy wore a bullet-prove vest, and at the end he killed himself. He didn't run away after the first shooting, but stayed on the campus to wait for the second opportunity.

Kind of the guy determined to die, and drag as many as possible to go with him.

The guy's blog, it's said
http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/

[szbd]

You let a foriegner just entered your country less than a year to have two guns. I seriously do not understand the gun control of US. Most of other countries do not allow civilians to carry weapons at all. And all these countries are fine. Why you have to train all your people to use weapon and in constant aleart to protect themselves and at the same time let the murders get their weapons freely?

[szbd]

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE are those guns in the blog real?

[Jeff Head]

You let a foriegner just entered your country less than a year to have two guns. I seriously do not understand the gun control of US. Most of other countries do not allow civilians to carry weapons at all. And all these countries are fine. Why you have to train all your people to use weapon and in constant aleart to protect themselves and at the same time let the murders get their weapons freely?
Since it has been reported that the serial numbers on the guns were ground off, I doubt seriously that these guns were obtained legally...and even if they were, they were not used legally. Laws were broken. By definition, a criminal like this breaks laws.

As to why the US had so many guns...as I explained earlier it is a cultural and historical issue based on the premise that it is primarily the individuals responsibilty himself to defend himself in a free society. Been operating under that prmise for over 200 years.

As to it not happening in other countries...I believe if we look around ourselves we will find that it does. Guns, explosives, bombs, knives, etc., etc.

[szbd]

Yeah he broke the law, that's mainly because it's very easy in US to break that law, which means, the law has some problems.

I know the US cultural and historical tradition on this. But the world is changed, there should be some progress made on it. The individuals responsibilty himself to defend himself in a free society is not a good thing, An individual can also kill people easily in this free society.

[szbd]

Well, as a Chinese myself, I don't think I hold the biase against Chinese or East Asian.

But from the deadly way of shooting and cold-mind method, I already guessed it right. That guy wore a bullet-prove vest, and at the end he killed himself. He didn't run away after the first shooting, but stayed on the campus to wait for the second opportunity.

Kind of the guy determined to die, and drag as many as possible to go with him.

The guy's blog, it's said
http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/

That's not the shooter's blog, the blog is just updated.

[Jeff Head]

Yeah he broke the law, that's mainly because it's very easy in US to break that law, which means, the law has some problems.

I know the US cultural and historical tradition on this. But the world is changed, there should be some progress made on it. The individuals responsibilty himself to defend himself in a free society is not a good thing, An individual can also kill people easily in this free society.Sorry...we disagree. It is easy to break the law in any society. One just has to decide to do so and then do it...and then face the consequences.

Individual responsibility is a significant price of freedom. I was giving perspective about those feelings here in America...nothing more

As it is, we simply disagree on this and, as I said, I do not intend to argue or debate it. The SD forum is not about that.

[szbd]

Yeah, those 30+ death, 20+ wounded and their families just paided their price of freedom.***********************************

watch your words
bd popeye super moderator

[crazyinsane105]

My deepest sympathy towards the victims and their families and my utter most outrage towards the incompetent university officials who could have probably averted this massacre.

This really disturbs me. The University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign has a tendency to send out mass e-mails to students for other things (for example, over the past two weeks there have been about five armed robberies on campus and we JUST got an e-mail about it like a day ago:mad: ). I have a feeling the university officials at UIUC would have probably reacted the same way. I hope this certainly changes things on how university officials act.

Thank Allah (SWT) that this madman was not using an AK-47 or AR-15, the death toll would have been much much higher....

[Tasman]

This terrible tragedy takes me back to the Port Arthur shooting in my home state of Tasmania, in Australia, just 10 years ago, when 35 people, mainly tourists, were gunned down by a single crazed gunman, armed with a couple of semi auto assault rifles.

Gun laws in Australia were changed after that and in my case I had to surrender several valuable semi auto rifles and a semi auto shotgun because they were included in a list of prohibited firearms under our new laws. I thought the changes in Australia went too far and it has done nothing to stop illegal firearm ownership by criminals. It is just much more difficult for law abiding people to get permission to buy a firearm and has made some kinds of firearms, like the Browning A5 shotgun I had used for duck shooting for 30 years, illegal. In my opinion, the thing that led to the PA shooting was that a person with known psychological problems was able to obtain weapons like the AR-15 with no questions asked. I think sensible laws have a place, but draconian laws will still see criminals getting hold of guns.

My sympathy and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

Cheers

[Roger604]

Probably be some time before we have all the details of what happened and where he came from and what his background is.

I'm sure many of us check sinodefence after hearing the news because there will be speculation that this was a terrorism incident.

Now it looks like the incident is linked to our online discussion in a totally unexpected way (i.e., shooter is a PRC national).

Two 9mm??? Isn't that like a John Woo movie? Was the shooter trying to mimick a movie?

And did he have any training? Was he in the army back at home?

[szbd]

The shooter is a PRC national turns out to be a rumor. Now there's no identification yet.

[fishhead]

The shooter is a PRC national turns out to be a rumor. Now there's no identification yet.

Yes, he is confirmed as a South Korean student.

BTW, the "PRC national" is not the "rumor", the people with the political motivation want to strike some points.

[Schumacher]

So, the shooter is a Korean. Not that it matters much or changes anything of the terrible nature of this sad incident, but don't the reporters have any ethics at all to report as they did, based purely on rumours, that the shooter was a Chinese.
Was Rivera the first to report it ? Surprise, surprise. Isn't he the idiot who did the 'story' on selling of organs from Chinese criminals sentenced to death some time ago ?

[fishhead]

So, the shooter is a Korean. Not that it matters much or changes anything of the terrible nature of this sad incident, but don't the reporters have any ethics at all to report as they did, based purely on rumours, that the shooter was a Chinese.
Was Rivera the first to report it ? Surprise, surprise. Isn't he the idiot who did the 'story' on selling of organs from Chinese criminals sentenced to death some time ago ?

The so called "Chinese National" claim first came from a report on a Chicago newspaper, written by a Taiwan journlist.

It doesn' change the nature of the incident, very true.

[bd popeye]

The shooter is a PRC national turns out to be a rumor. Now there's no identification yet.

The VA Tech police report the gunman was from South Korea and was a senior at VA Tech.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Va. Tech: Gunman student from S. Korea By ADAM GELLER, AP National Writer

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A Virginia Tech senior, Cho Seung-Hui, from South Korea killed at least 30 people locked inside a classroom building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, the university and police said Tuesday.

Ballistics tests also found that one of the guns used in that attack was also used in a shooting two hours earlier at a Virginia Tech dorm that left two people dead, Virginia State Police said.

Police identified the classroom shooter as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, a senior from South Korea who was in the English department and lived in another dorm on campus. They said Cho committed suicide after the attacks, and there was no indication Tuesday of a possible motive.

"He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," school spokesman Larry Hincker said.

Two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho's fingerprints were found on the guns used in both shootings. The serial numbers on the two weapons had been filed off, the officials said.

One law enforcement official said Cho's backpack contained a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol.

Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, said it was reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both attacks but that link was yet definitive.

"There's no evidence of any accomplice at either event, but we're exploring the possibility," he said.

Cho was a permanent legal resident of the United States, according to a Homeland Security Department official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced.

A memorial service was planned for the victims Tuesday afternoon at the university, and President Bush planned to attend, the White House said. Gov. Tim Kaine was flying back to Virginia from Tokyo for the 2 p.m. convocation.

The first deadly attack, at a dormitory around 7:15 a.m., left two people dead. But some students said they didn't get their first warning about a danger on campus until two hours later, in an e-mail at 9:26 a.m. By then the second attack had begun.

Two students told NBC's "Today" show they were unaware of the dorm shooting when they walked into Norris Hall for a German class where the gunman later opened fire.

The victims in Norris Hall were found in four different classrooms and a stairwell, Flaherty said. Cho was found dead in one of those classrooms, he said.

Derek O'Dell, his arm in a cast after being shot, described a shooter who fired away in "eerily silence" with "no specific target — just taking out anybody he could."

After the gunman left the room, students could hear him shooting other people down the hall. O'Dell said he and other students barricaded the door so the shooter couldn't get back in — though he later tried.

"After he couldn't get the door open he tried shooting it open ... but the gunshots were blunted by the door," O'Dell said.

A federal law enforcement official said Tuesday he had been told by other federal law enforcement officials that the two guns recovered in the shooting had had their serial numbers scraped off. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced.

The slayings left people of this once-peaceful mountain town and the university at its heart praying for the victims and struggling to find order in a tragedy of such unspeakable horror it defies reason.

"For Ryan and Emily and for those whose names we do not know," one woman pleaded in a church service Monday night.

Another mourner added: "For parents near and far who wonder at a time like this, 'Is my child safe?'"

That question promises to haunt Blacksburg long after Monday's attacks. Investigators offered no motive, and the gunman's name was not immediately released.

The shooting began about 7:15 a.m. on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston, a high-rise coed dormitory where two people died.

Police were still investigating around 9:15 a.m., when a gunman wielding two handguns and carrying multiple clips of ammunition stormed Norris Hall, a classroom building a half-mile away on the other side of the 2,600-acre campus.

At least 20 people were taken to hospitals after the second attack, some seriously injured. Many found themselves trapped after someone, apparently the shooter, chained and locked Norris Hall doors from the inside.

Students jumped from windows, and students and faculty carried away some of the wounded without waiting for ambulances to arrive.

SWAT team members with helmets, flak jackets and assault rifles swarmed over the campus. A student used his cell-phone camera to record the sound of bullets echoing through a stone building.

Inside Norris, the attack began with a thunderous sound from Room 206 — "what sounded like an enormous hammer," said Alec Calhoun, a 20-year-old junior who was in a solid mechanics lecture in a classroom next door.

Screams followed an instant later, and the banging continued. When students realized the sounds were gunshots, Calhoun said, he started flipping over desks to make hiding places. Others dashed to the windows of the second-floor classroom, kicking out the screens and jumping from the ledge of Room 204, he said.

"I must've been the eighth or ninth person who jumped, and I think I was the last," said Calhoun, of Waynesboro, Va. He landed in a bush and ran.

Calhoun said that the two students behind him were shot, but that he believed they survived. Just before he climbed out the window, Calhoun said, he turned to look at his professor, who had stayed behind, apparently to prevent the gunman from opening the door.

The instructor was killed, Calhoun said.

Erin Sheehan, who was in the German class near Calhoun's room, told the student newspaper, the Collegiate Times, that she was one of only four of about two dozen people in the class to walk out of the room. The rest were dead or wounded, she said.

She said the gunman "was just a normal-looking kid, Asian, but he had on a Boy Scout-type outfit. He wore a tan button-up vest, and this black vest, maybe it was for ammo or something."

The gunman first shot the professor in the head and then fired on the class, another student, Trey Perkins, told The Washington Post. The gunman was about 19 years old and had a "very serious but very calm look on his face," he said.

"Everyone hit the floor at that moment," said Perkins, 20, of Yorktown, Va., a sophomore studying mechanical engineering. "And the shots seemed like it lasted forever."

At an evening news conference, Police Chief Wendell Flinchum refused to dismiss the possibility that a co-conspirator or second shooter was involved. He said police had interviewed a male who was a "person of interest" in the dorm shooting and who knew one of the victims, but he declined to give details.

"I'm not saying there's a gunman on the loose," Flinchum said. Ballistics tests will help explain what happened, he said.

Some students bitterly complained that the first e-mail warning arrived more than two hours after the first shots.

"I think the university has blood on their hands because of their lack of action after the first incident," said Billy Bason, 18, who lives on the seventh floor of the dorm.

University President Charles Steger emphasized that the university closed off the dorm after the first attack and decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means to spread the word, but said that with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out.

He said that before the e-mail was sent, the university began telephoning resident advisers in the dorms and sent people to knock on doors. Students were warned to stay inside and away from the windows.

"We can only make decisions based on the information you had at the time. You don't have hours to reflect on it," Steger said.

The 9:26 e-mail had few details: "A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating."

Until Monday, the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard plowed his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.

Nine students remained hospitalized Tuesday at Montgomery Regional Hospital, all of them stable, CEO Scott Hill said. Two others had been transferred to other hospitals with a Level I trauma center.

Their families "are by the bedside, which is a good thing," Hill said.

Lewis-Gale Medical Center in Salem had three remaining patients, all in stable condition, with one expected to be discharged later Tuesday, Hill said.

The massacre Monday took place almost eight years to the day after the Columbine High bloodbath near Littleton, Colo. On April 20, 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.

Previously, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage that took place in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire with a rifle from the 28th-floor observation deck. He killed 16 people before he was shot to death by police.

Founded in 1872, Virginia Tech is nestled in southwestern Virginia, about 160 miles west of Richmond. With more than 25,000 full-time students, it has the state's largest full-time student population. The school is best known for its engineering school and its powerhouse Hokies football team.

Police said there had been bomb threats on campus over the past two weeks but that they had not determined whether they were linked to the shootings.

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of gunfire.

Last August, the opening day of classes was canceled when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy was killed just off campus. The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.

Among the dead were professors Liviu Librescu and Kevin Granata, said Ishwar K. Puri, the head of the engineering science and mechanics department.

Librescu, an Israeli, was born in Romania and was known internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering, Puri wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

Granata and his students researched muscle and reflex response and robotics. Puri called him one of the top five biomechanics researchers in the country working on movement dynamics in cerebral palsy.

Also killed was Ryan Clark, a student from Martinez, Ga., who had several majors and carried a 4.0 grade-point average, said Vernon Collins, coroner in Columbia County, Ga.

His friend Gregory Walton, a 25-year-old who graduated last year, said he feared the nightmare had just begun.

"I knew when the number was so large that I would know at least one person on that list," said Walton, a banquet manager. "I don't want to look at that list. I don't want to.

"It's just, it's going to be horrible, and it's going to get worse before it gets better."

Associated Press Writers Justin Pope in Blacksburg and Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington contributed to this report.

[The_Zergling]

Unsurprisingly, there were not a few people speculating on whether or not the shooter was a Muslim before he was really identified. It really is a sad state of affairs right now...

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25142_Mass_Murder_at_Virginia_Tech&only#comments

Comments here are very disturbing, but I don't think they are unique.

The other reaction besides that of racial profiling is from NRA activists as well as those on the other side of the spectrum. The theory is that someone would have shot the guy before he killed all those students. It's not impossible. Of course, one would have to wonder what percentage of the college students would try to get a permit, how many of them would bring their guns to class on that given day, how many weren't psychopaths, and how many had the gun training necessary to enable them to overcome natural panic and get off clean shots without themselves killing innocents.

Like I said, you'd have to have an authoritarian government that's ANTI-gun rather than pro-gun to fix this problem. This is sad.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818502/posts#comment?q=1

And how we've got people surmising... CHINA AL-QAEDA OMFG. I dunno what to say now. Thoughts going through my head are pretty politically incorrect.

[fishhead]

I may say there is some racial factor in the incident, though probably it's too early saying that now.

His GF is a white girl, and left him, which casued the shooting. It seems that no East Asian student was hurt during the incident, one Indian professor and student were killed.

We will wait to see it's coincident or intention.

[Scratch]

Well, as a Chinese myself, I don't think I hold the biase against Chinese or East Asian.

But from the deadly way of shooting and cold-mind method, I already guessed it right. That guy wore a bullet-prove vest, and at the end he killed himself. He didn't run away after the first shooting, but stayed on the campus to wait for the second opportunity.

Kind of the guy determined to die, and drag as many as possible to go with him.
Sorry, I really don't mean to nitpick on you. But reading your posts I'm still of the impression that you think to be cold-blooded, determind to die, and "effectively" killing as many people as possible is a typical asian art. Whereas a "westerner" would shoot around without thinking, getting into panic, running around crying until arrested.
IMO, that is complete nonsense, the ethnic background has nothing whatsoever to do with such incidents.

What I would be interested in is how would it had been if students were armed.
When that criminal starts the killing, another one would have shot him. A third thinks that second one is a shooter and kills him. Whereas a fourth knows the second one only defended himself and therefore thinks the third is a accessory of the first and shoots him.
Unless you stay calm in a life or death situation (wich is a serious task) carrying a gun can be bring more harm than benefit, IMO.

On a side note: Just read after the Colombine High incident, when there were calls to change gun laws, then Pres Clinton said do you change culture and then I will change gun laws ...

[fishhead]

Sorry, I really don't mean to nitpick on you. But reading your posts I'm still of the impression that you think to be cold-blooded, determind to die, and "effectively" killing as many people as possible is a typical asian art. Whereas a "westerner" would shoot around without thinking, getting into panic, running around crying until arrested.
IMO, that is complete nonsense, the ethnic background has nothing whatsoever to do with such incidents.

Well, it's the fact. The efficiency of the killing immediately reminded me of Lu Gang's case. It is the same efficiency and planning and cold blood execution. The difference is that Lu didn't kill anyone he thought innocent.


On a side note: Just read after the Colombine High incident, when there were calls to change gun laws, then Pres Clinton said do you change culture and then I will change gun laws ...

Thank you for pointing it out: The culture background does play the key role here.

[crazyinsane105]

One was GV Loganathan, 51, an Indian-born lecturer in civil and environmental engineering, and another was Liviu Librescu, a Romanian-born Israeli expert on aeronautical engineering.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6563565.stm

These are the two professors who were shot dead.

[fishhead]

These are the two professors who were shot dead.

There are 4-5 professors dead.

[Neutral Zone]

One was GV Loganathan, 51, an Indian-born lecturer in civil and environmental engineering, and another was Liviu Librescu, a Romanian-born Israeli expert on aeronautical engineering.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6563565.stm

These are the two professors who were shot dead.

Professor Librescu survived the Holocaust only to die in a university school.

It's difficult to find the words to use to describe that.

[AssassinsMace]

Well this should be a lesson not to believe the news media vultures when they just look to create a story for ratings. A Chinese national who entered the US on a student visa back in Sept 06 who has Al Qaeda links and sent the bomb threats to the university weeks earlier in order to test the response time and all this was known by the Chicago Sun Times within a half day? Boy, you know a lot people wish this were true. If it were, I wonder if the mushroom clouds would be rising above the clouds right now. That absurdity in disinformation was more wishful thinking than a mistake. But that probably doesn't make a difference since I hear more than once these days people says China bombed Pearl Harbor.

[Roger604]

South Koreans must be shocked that the gunman was S. Korean descended. I know Koreans have a very strong sense of kinship, much more than geographically diverse Chinese people.

Even the S. Korean Prime Minister issued a public statement.

No Koreans on this board?

[ahho]

Well this should be a lesson not to believe the news media vultures when they just look to create a story for ratings. A Chinese national who entered the US on a student visa back in Sept 06 who has Al Qaeda links and sent the bomb threats to the university weeks earlier in order to test the response time and all this was known by the Chicago Sun Times within a half day? Boy, you know a lot people wish this were true. If it were, I wonder if the mushroom clouds would be rising above the clouds right now. That absurdity in disinformation was more wishful thinking than a mistake. But that probably doesn't make a difference since I hear more than once these days people says China bombed Pearl Harbor.

China bombed pearl harbor:nana: man this is something that i haven't heard of or maybe people need to be educated

well yeah at first i heard someone saying that it was a Chinese and didn't know if he is a student or not. This news came from a Chinese channel in Canada which got it from America. This morning they confirmed that it was a Korean.

man i was so confused about the nationality of the shooter until this morning when the clarified the whole thing.

[Jeff Head]

Professor Librescu survived the Holocaust only to die in a university school.

It's difficult to find the words to use to describe that.
According to all accounts I have read of his actions, this 77 year old man died a hero, immediately and willingly using his body to blockade the door so his students could get out of windows while the gunman fired through the door.

[szbd]

There's a similar bravery too. A Chinese FEMALE PhD student block the door with others' help and saved all her students and herself. There's a letter from a professor in CS department from VT:


Dear all,

I would like to share with you the oustanding act of bravery that took place today in Norris Hall. Without this wonderful courage the list of victims would have been longer with several Computer Science students. This is the story I
've learned from XX and XX.

XX Cheng, our CS Ph.D. student, was substitute-teaching CS 4414 in 205Norris Hall this morning. Around 9:45 very loud noises were heard from the corridor. XX and one student went outside to see what was happening. What hey saw was a young men with a gun exiting a classroom. As soon as he saw them he pointed the gun to them (and shot at them but missed). XX and the student ran quickly back in the classroom and closed the door after them; XX told the students to lay down; three men from the classroom rushed to the door and held it closed. The killer tried several times to force-enter the 205 classroom. He then shot two bullets through the door inside the classroom. student ran quickly back in the classroom and closed the door after them; XX told the students to lay down; three men from the classroom rushed to the door and held it closed. The killer tried several times to force-enter the 205 classroom. He then shot two bullets through the door inside the classroom. Fortunately these bullets did not hit anybody inside. The killer gave up and went on to other classrooms ...


And more, she was a member of VT's women table tennis team who won the first ever sports title in US in VT's history. Actually everybody in that team is Chinese.:D

[fishhead]

There's a similar bravery too. A Chinese FEMALE PhD student block the door with others' help and saved all her students and herself. There's a letter from a professor in CS department from VT:


What you said is this woman, probably she saved her class:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2007/04/17/VI2007041700771.html?hpid=topnews

[ahho]

wow some brave souls. taking their body as the armour for the rest takes a lot of guts when you care for the students.

[zaky]

I am very sorry about what happened and I want to express my deep concern about it. I tried to post here yesterday but I can’t for technical problems.
The Romanian press also related the tragedy.

http://www.hotnews.ro/articol_70002-Liviu-Librescu-profesorul-de-eroism.htm

[fishhead]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2007-04/18/content_5994069.htm

Chinese government calls the American newspaper report "irresponsible" and "no professional ethics".

The American news media report causes widespread backlash in China.

[fishhead]

NBC received material from the killer. Well it must be planed days before the shooting.

It's exactly the same way as Lu Gang, the Chinese student 16 years ago who sent 4 copies of letter to the news media before his shooting incident. And his letter is still banned from publishing, I wonder why?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4727626.html

[Neutral Zone]

Virginia gunman 'had mental care'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6568781.stm

The student who shot dead at least 30 people at Virginia Tech University was admitted to a mental health unit in late 2005, police have revealed.
Cho Seung-hui was sent for evaluation after two female students made complaints against him, they said.

Cho had also sent "photographs, video and writings" to NBC News, which have been turned over to the FBI for examination, police said.

MSNBC said the material was sent between the first and second shootings.

A total of 32 people died in shootings at two locations on the Virginia Tech campus on Monday.

"This may be a very new, critical component of this investigation," said Steve Flaherty, superintendent of Virginia State Police.

"We're in the process right now of attempting to analyze and evaluate its worth," he said at a news conference.

The complaints about Cho were made in November and December 2005, around the time Cho's English teachers raised concerns over his writing and general behaviour.

Authorities have not yet linked the 23-year old to any of those he killed.

Two people were killed at the West Ambler Johnston Hall, a university dormitory, before Cho killed 30 others, plus himself, at the Norris Hall complex across campus some two hours later.

Police say the same gun was used at both locations but have not definitely proved that Cho was at West Ambler Johnstone at the time of the shootings there.

Twin complaints

In the aftermath of the shootings, teachers and fellow students have spoken of Cho's moods, violent writings and unpredictable behaviour.

One of his roommates, Karan Grewal, told the BBC that Cho rarely spoke to those with whom he shared a three-room apartment.

"I figured he was pretty lonely, but not that he was angry in any way or he was capable of what he did."

Two separate complaints about Cho's behaviour were lodged in late 2005, university police chief Wendell Flinchum told a news conference.

But he said the two women who made the complaints were not among Cho's shooting victims.

However, Mr Flinchum did reveal that Cho was well known both to campus authorities and local law enforcement agencies.

"I'm not saying they were threats, I'm saying they were annoying. That's the way the victims characterised them, as annoying messages," he added.

In the first instance, Cho reportedly telephoned a female student and made direct contact with her.

Police spoke to Cho after she lodged a complaint, they said.

In a similar incident a month later, in December 2005, Cho reportedly made contact with another female student through instant messaging, leading to her complaint.

He was referred to a mental health unit outside the Virginia Tech campus on 13 December for evaluation amid concerns he was feeling suicidal, police said.

Private medical records from the mental health facility remain confidential, but Cho was referred back to university authorities for counselling after his assessment and had no further contact with campus police.

Around the same time, at least two of Cho's English teachers voiced their concerns over his behaviour and the tone of his work.

Cho's writing was moody and often involved themes of violence and death that alarmed Lucinda Roy, who was at that time head of the English department at Virginia Tech.

She removed Cho from regular classes and tutored him one-on-one after a complaint from another teacher.

"He was quite a gifted student in some ways, but he seemed to be very lonely and depressed," she said.

=========================================

Apparently when this scumbag bought the guns all he had to do was tick a box on a form saying that he had no history of mental illness. The gun store owner had no way of knowing his past history. Who would tick yes? I mentioned earlier in the thread that my brother lives in this part of Virginia, many of his friends are shooters, I met some of them last year when I was over for his wedding and we did some "plinking" as Popeye calls it. They were all very mature and responsible people, but surely there must be checks to ensure that unstable people like Cho are kept as far away from guns as possible?

[bd popeye]

Apparently when this scumbag bought the guns all he had to do was tick a box on a form saying that he had no history of mental illness. The gun store owner had no way of knowing his past history. Who would tick yes? I mentioned earlier in the thread that my brother lives in this part of Virginia, many of his friends are shooters, I met some of them last year when I was over for his wedding and we did some "plinking" as Popeye calls it. They were all very mature and responsible people, but surely there must be checks to ensure that unstable people like Cho are kept as far away from guns as possible?


Whenever a horrfic event like this occurs the anti-gun lobbist come out in droves. Led by the likes of Rosie O'Donnell. The vast majority of gun owners in the US are very responsible persons...

Perhaps stricter gun ownership screening in VA would have everted this tradgey. But the US being a open society what would have prevented him from purchasing weapons in another stae? Nothing...

[Neutral Zone]

Whenever a horrfic event like this occurs the anti-gun lobbist come out in droves. Led by the likes of Rosie O'Donnell. The vast majority of gun owners in the US are very responsible persons...

Perhaps stricter gun ownership screening in VA would have everted this tradgey. But the US being a open society what would have prevented him from purchasing weapons in another stae? Nothing...

Popeye, my experiences last year changed all the stereotypes I had about US gun ownership. Previously I had thought that anyone who owned a gun was some sort of right wing Rambo nut. I now realise that the vast majority of them are sane and responsible people and as a general principle I do not believe that responsible people should be punished for actions of those who do not respect the responsibility that goes with their rights. We all have the right to drive a car, some people drive irresponsibly and kill innocent people. But I don't hear anyone saying that all cars should be banned.

[alwaysfresh]

Yeah he was South Korean born, but moved to the USA when he was 8, so is it fare to say that he is an South Korean? This is an American shooting Americans, just like the Columbine High School massacre. I do not think it is fare to say he was South Korean, because Americans are going to now be blaming Chinese and South Koreans for causes all the violence in America, eventhough he lived most of his life in the US.

Why are these so many pictures of his face on the news? I mean this is going to leave a deep impression that Asians=Chinese are crazy/violent to all Americans who generalize easily. I was just thinking after reading that post about Asians being crazy killers: don't you remember "Columbine High School massacre", and I can tell you I do not know what those students who killed everyone looked like, but this asians face is going to be know by all. To all Americans who generalize easily they are going to just see an Asian(aka Chinese). I hate US media.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25142_Mass_Murder_at_Virginia_Tech#comments
I want to know about the comment on the website above that states shootings happen everyday on campus. Also more information on the bomb threat one week early.

[fishhead]

Also I don't believe for a sec that he is mental illness. A perfect normal people can do nasty evil things as well, esp when you're young and at the time losing your control.

On the road of second day of the shooting, I tuned into a radio station that one expert was explaining these thing and I totally agree. Most horrible things are done by pretty normal folks, no much different than people we run into on daily basis, and most terrible thing may come out from victims of bullying, at the time when they strike back.

[alwaysfresh]

fishhead;61719]Also I don't believe for a sec that he is mental illness. A perfect normal people can do nasty evil things as well, esp when you're young and at the time losing your control.

Fishhead replying after my post like that "Also I don't believe" makes me look stupid and you obvious with that reply.

Fishhead who are you agreeing with? NOT ME . I did NOT say that.

Fishhead properly quote which ever person your agreeing with who said that the killer was not "mental illness", I think you mean mentally ill.

[fishhead]

I am quoting what a crime psychologist said on the radio, you can disagree.

I respect your opinion and didn't force you to agree.

[AssassinsMace]

Whenever a horrfic event like this occurs the anti-gun lobbist come out in droves. Led by the likes of Rosie O'Donnell. The vast majority of gun owners in the US are very responsible persons...

Perhaps stricter gun ownership screening in VA would have everted this tradgey. But the US being a open society what would have prevented him from purchasing weapons in another stae? Nothing...

I watched Rosie O'Donnell on the View to see her reaction. She basically said she has given-up on believing there will be any gun control legislation. So she has not taken up this cause because she has already given-up on the issue.

[IDonT]

Whenever a horrfic event like this occurs the anti-gun lobbist come out in droves. Led by the likes of Rosie O'Donnell. The vast majority of gun owners in the US are very responsible persons...

Perhaps stricter gun ownership screening in VA would have everted this tradgey. But the US being a open society what would have prevented him from purchasing weapons in another stae? Nothing...

How much are you willing to bet that the NRA will come out with...."if the College students were allowed to carry guns in the class room, they would have defended themselves and stop the assailant"...defence strategy.

[crobato]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2007-04/18/content_5994069.htm

Chinese government calls the American newspaper report "irresponsible" and "no professional ethics".


As if there is nothing there the American media had not done before. Tell the Chinese government to wait in the long line of complainees.

[adeptitus]

IMO this incident isn't about gun control, racism, etc. The kid had obvious mental issues and gave plenty of warnings through his prior actions. However, by law there is very little you could do to detain someone who's nuts beyond the typical 72 hour observation period. By law most city's department of mental health cannot detain an adult beyond 72 hours without showing that the person is an immediate threat to himself or others.

I've known a girl from Texas who threatened her ex BF in San Diego with a knife. She was detained and later released after the ex BF refused to file charges. A year later, she broke into another ex BF's house in Los Angeles and threatened to kill him then herself with a knife. Again she was detained and sent to City of Los Angeles Department of Mental Health, where she was held for 72 hour observation and released. Again the ex BF refused to file charges and the police did nothing.

Jeff Head had mentioned the right to bear arms, but I think that's an "external" right where the government can only take away your guns. How about your rights in mental health (internal) issues? I've known several people who REALLY should receive treatment, and I mean they are NUTS. But do you want the government to have the power to detain you indefinitely and forced to accept various treatments that may include everything from pills to electrical shocks, just because someone reported you as being crazy, and a psychologist agrees with them? Should your school and employer have access to your confidential medical files?

[bd popeye]

I watched Rosie O'Donnell on the View to see her reaction. She basically said she has given-up on believing there will be any gun control legislation. So she has not taken up this cause because she has already given-up on the issue.

&

How much are you willing to bet that the NRA will come out with...."if the College students were allowed to carry guns in the class room, they would have defended themselves and stop the assailant"...defence strategy.


Rosie "O'Fat" is just throwing more logs on the fire to get the liberal anti-gun side in a row. She is a well know voice in the liberal comunity.

That show "the View" sucks. A bunch of man haters. When I see it on the TV I feel like throwing tomatoes at the screen. I never watch it...

I saw one of the female "talking heads" on Tv wondering why "someone" did not stop the gunman. Huh?? He had two guns and was shooting everything in sight. The victums had zero guns. I would have barracided myself in a room. Played dead. Stacked up some furniture and when he came in the room I would have been on top of the furniture and clobbered the guy...

Gun Control..You cannot control crazy people...

I've known a girl from Texas who threatened her ex BF in San Diego with a knife. She was detained and later released after the ex BF refused to file charges.

My ex-wife threatend to kill me and herself. And was placed in the psyc ward for three days. Then they let her go. Trust me she's nuts. That's why I live in Iowa and she is still in San Diego.

[Gollevainen]

well as the discussion seems to dangerously enter into Political rant over US gun laws, along with the fact that this issue clearly raises strong emotions, expecially in our US memebers; lets just take deep breath and consider wheter these sort of issues fits in the fun and leisure section of Chinese military forum

Gollevainen, Super Moderator

[bd popeye]

I agree with Golly. I apoligize for my little rant against liberals.

Let's continue with an intelligent discussion.

[crazyinsane105]

Why are these so many pictures of his face on the news? I mean this is going to leave a deep impression that Asians=Chinese are crazy/violent to all Americans who generalize easily. I was just thinking after reading that post about Asians being crazy killers: don't you remember "Columbine High School massacre", and I can tell you I do not know what those students who killed everyone looked like, but this asians face is going to be know by all. To all Americans who generalize easily they are going to just see an Asian(aka Chinese). I hate US media.

Hey, welcome to how Muslims in the USA feel today. :nana: Seriously though, yeah this is going to have a lasting impact just like Sept. 11 did on us. The media should be much more fare.

[fishhead]

I really don't care the killer is a Chinese or not, so what? Even he is not still somebody may claim he is as the past experience shows. It doesn't bother me at all.

Also I won't talk with Americans about gun controls. It's like talking with someone about their baby, kind of going nowhere if talking about born right thought by the people.

[bd popeye]

More fair? :confused: I'm not arguing with you . Remember Muhammad and Malvo who gunned down 10 people in the Metro DC area in late 2005? Their faces were plasterd all over the media for weeks & months. Last I checked they were black. No backlash against Blacks as being crazy pyso killers. How about Jeffery Dohmer?? Who not only murdrered his victims but took a few bites out of them? His grill certianly was all over the media. No backlash there against young white men. And what about Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold? The Colombine killers. Their faces were in the media for years....Still are from time to time.

Faces are shown ,in my opinion , because the media wants to show the face of a killer. That's my opinion.

[fishhead]

I find it's quite shocking that in US as a free media society the public are denied to access the full information. Take Lu Gang's case of 16 years ago as an example, Mr. Lu sent letters to the media before he commited the shooting but they're not allowed to be published even today, while in China his last letter to his sister, in Chinese was allowed to go to public in the full length. Thanks to that it helped us in understanding the whole event.

In Cho's case he sent the whole pack of material to NBC, and why they're not published to the public? In my view, labeling him as the person with mental illness is just too simple a way to describe the incident, in that way you basically spare him of any social responsiblity, and reduce the whole thing to a personal health issue. As the person with health problem, he won't be held accountable for his action, even the killer didn't think that way.

Cho obviously has his own opinion, just like Timothy McVeigh, Eric Harris, and Dylan Klebold etc. None of them are mentally ill, otehrwise they will be the sick men, not evil men. I hope the full material related to the case is released to the public so there will be a good understanding what actually happened. If the media can released OLB's speech in the full length, it's bizarre to see the publich can only access the official provided and media filtered version of killer's message.

http://www.capeargus.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3789373

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802550.html

[bd popeye]

I find it's quite shocking that in US as a free media society the public are denied to access the full information.

Jeez, the accused rights are protected from public scrutiny so they may recive a fair trial if need be...NBC did the right thing by turning that information over to the authorities. Only small snipites of the tape have been released to the public. This is done because there is an ongoing police investigation into this horffic crime.

Lets say for instance the gunman was captured. And the full volume of those tapes had been released to the public before his trail. How would the gunman recieved fair trail if everyone had access to the tapes? How would a fair and impartial jury been selected?

Oh yea I'm no lawyer....

[fishhead]

Then I hope the whole information will be released to the public after the legal activities.

It will be irresponsible for the victims just to describe the killer is man with mental illness, which is a medical term not a term for social responsibility of person.

Mr Lu's case was thoroughly discussed in Chinese medias, novels and movies were made based on his letter. And I note that since then there hasn't been a mass shooting case like that by Chinese students studying in US.

[Jeff Head]

Then I hope the whole information will be released to the public after the legal activities.

It will be irresponsible for the victims just to describe the killer is man with mental illness, which is a medical term not a term for social responsibility of person.My guess is that eventually his entire "manifesto" will be releaed, along with most of his videos and pics.

NBC has already released quite a bit of it, but I personally feel, that out of respect for the victims and their families (as well as for the legal issues), that this release was too soon. They should be allowed to mourn without sensationalizing the criminal...which this mass media exposure is doing.

PICTURES FROM THE KILLERS MANIFESTO (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18183171/displaymode/1107/s/2/)

WRITINGS FROM THE KILLERS MANIFESTO (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18186053/)

As to "social responsibility"...well, although I realize that there are various factors that influence a person's behavior and that some of those demand accountability by society itself at various levels...still, by far and away the chief influence, by orders of magnitude, are the choices the individual makes themself.

[fishhead]

It may happens. My view is that as a murturing society you got to educate the mass that even some one is better off than you or richer than you or you're not treated fairly it's not a reason to commit the mass killing just to vent your angry.

I understand that using "mental illness" is to degrade some one's status as a person, same thing both true in Western or Chinese societies. But it's not a muturing way.

Mr. Lu was not called "mentally ill" by Chinese. After reading his letter you will know he is a very honest man, actually among the brillintest science student who doesn't know how to make a lie. But still he commited a terrible crime, even an honest man can do that.

[Jeff Head]

It may happens. My view is that as a murturing society you got to educate the mass that even some one is better off than you or richer than you or you're not treated fairly it's not a reason to commit the mass killing just to vent your angry.

I understand that using "mental illness" is to degrade some one's status as a person, same thing both true in Western or Chinese societies. But it's not a muturing way.

Mr. Lu was not called "mentally ill" by Chinese. After reading his letter you will know he is a very honest man, actually among the brillintest science student who doesn't know how to make a lie. But still he commited a terrible crime, even an honest man can do that.Mentally ill is a condition, not a social statement. At least that is what it should be.

Depraved does not mean a person is stupid. Mentally ill does not mean a person cannot think and cannot be brilliant.

After hearing only a small part of what this criminal had to say, at least IMHO, it is clear that he was off his rocker...meaning, he was crazy. And not just crazy, but as it turns out, criminally insane.

It is true that smart and brilliant people can also commit horrible crimes...both individually and institutionally. One need look no further thatn the Nazi party of Germany in World War II to know this. Brilliant scientists, brilliant strategists (in some cases), brilliant and charismatic leaders all committing horrendous acts of brutality and criminality against entire nations and classes of people.

[fishhead]

Am I surprised for this? Not at all. That's why I said we need to know the whole picture, the whole society need to know that.

Va. Tech Shooter Was Laughed At

Long before he boiled over, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness and the strange way he talked when he was a schoolboy in the Washington suburbs, former classmates say.

Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

Cho shot 32 people to death and committed suicide Monday in the deadliest one-man shooting rampage in modern U.S. history. The high school classmates' accounts add to the psychological portrait that is beginning to take shape, and could shed light on Cho's state of mind in the video rant he mailed to NBC in the middle of his rampage at Virginia Tech.

In the often-incoherent video, the 23-year-old Cho portrays himself as persecuted and rants about rich kids.

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," says Cho, who came to the U.S. in 1992 and whose parents work at a dry cleaners in suburban Washington. "Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

Among the victims of the massacre were two other Westfield High graduates: Reema Samaha and Erin Peterson. Both young women graduated from the high school last year. Police said it is not clear whether Cho singled them out.

Stephanie Roberts, 22, a fellow member of Cho's graduating class at Westfield High, said she never witnessed anyone picking on Cho in high school.

"I just remember he was a shy kid who didn't really want to talk to anybody," she said. "I guess a lot of people felt like maybe there was a language barrier."

But she said friends of hers who went to middle school with Cho told her they recalled him getting picked on there.

"There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down and laugh at him," Roberts said Wednesday. "He didn't speak English really well and they would really make fun of him."

Virginia Tech student Alison Heck said a suitemate of hers on campus - Christina Lilick - found a mysterious question mark scrawled on the dry erase board on her door. Lilick went to the same high school as Cho, according to Lilick's Facebook page. Cho once scrawled a question mark on the sign-in sheet on the first day of a literature class, and other students came to know him as "the question mark kid."

"I don't know if she knew that it was him for sure," Heck said. "I do remember that that fall that she was being stalked and she had mentioned the question mark. And there was a question mark on her door."

Heck added: "She just let us know about it just in case there was a strange person walking around our suite."

Lilick could not immediately be located for comment, via e-mail or telephone.

Regan Wilder, 21, who attended Virginia Tech, high school and middle school with Cho, said she was in several classes with Cho in high school, including advanced-placement calculus and Spanish. She said he walked around with his head down, and almost never spoke. And when he did, it was "a real low mutter, like a whisper."

As part of an exam in Spanish class, students had to answer questions in Spanish on tape, and other students were so curious to know what Cho sounded like that they waited eagerly for the teacher to play his recording, she said. She said that on the tape, he did not speak confidently but did seem to know Spanish.

Wilder recalled high school teachers trying to get him to participate, but "he would only shrug his shoulders or he'd give like two-word responses, and I think it just got to the point where teachers just gave up because they realized he wasn't going to come out of the shell he was in, so they just kind of passed him over for the most part as time went on."

She said she was sure Cho probably was picked on in middle school, but so was everyone else. And it didn't seem as if English was the problem for him, she said. If he didn't speak English well, there were several other Korean students he could have reached out to for friendship, but he didn't, she said.

Wilder said Cho wasn't any friendlier in college, where "he always had that same damn blank stare, like glare, on his face. And I'd always try to make eye contact with him because I recognized the kid because I'd seen him for six years, but he'd always just look right past you like you weren't there."

On Wednesday, NBC received a package containing a rambling and often incoherent 23-page written statement from Cho, 28 video clips and 43 photos - many of them showing Cho, in a military-style vest and backward baseball cap, brandishing handguns. A Postal Service time stamp reads 9:01 a.m. - between the two attacks on campus.

The package helped explain one mystery: where the gunman was and what he did during that two-hour window between the first burst of gunfire, at a high-rise dorm, and the second attack, at a classroom building.

"You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," a snarling Cho says on video. "But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off."

Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, said Thursday that the material contained little they did not already know. Flaherty said he was disappointed that NBC decided to broadcast parts of it.

"I just hate that a lot of people not used to seeing that type of image had to see it," he said.

On NBC's "Today" show Thursday, host Meredith Vieira said the decision to air the information "was not taken lightly." Some victims' relatives canceled their plans to speak with NBC because they were upset over the airing of the images, she said.

"I saw his picture on TV, and when I did I just got chills," said Kristy Venning, a junior from Franklin County, Va. "There's really no words. It shows he put so much thought into this and I think it's sick."

There has been some speculation, especially among online forums, that Cho may have been inspired by the South Korean movie "Oldboy." One of the killer's mailed photos shows him brandishing a hammer - the signature weapon of the protagonist - and in a pose similar to one from the film.

The film won the Grand Prix prize at the Cannes Film Festival in 2004. It is about a man unjustly imprisoned for 15 years. After escaping, he goes on a rampage against his captor.

Authorities on Thursday disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho had been accused of sending unwanted messages to two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders and was pronounced a danger to himself. But he was released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment.

Also, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and menacing, uncommunicative demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling.

Associated Press writers Allen G. Breed, Vicki Smith, Sue Lindsey and Justin Pope in Blacksburg, Va., Matt Barakat in Richmond, Va., Colleen Long and Tom Hays in New York, and Lara Jakes Jordan and Sarah Karush in Washington contributed to this report.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/04/19/ap3631426.html

[fishhead]

And I will copy again what I quoted yesterday from a crime physicologist:

Most horrible things are done by pretty normal folks, no much different than people we run into on daily basis, and most terrible thing may come out from victims of bullying, at the time when they strike back.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2007/04/19/4068653.html

[Scratch]

That is a strange statement, IMO. If somebody feels disrespected or something like that, and takes revange by killing people, he isn't "normal" anymore, but insane.
That does of course not mean that you see it when you look at that person. You may pretty well run across someone like that without noticing.
And if a student doesn't want to speak in school for whatsoever reason, you should have acted already back then, IMO; since I don't think it to be "normal" behaviour.

Anyway, in such incidences I'm generally rather against the complete releasing of the "statements" of these persons and debating it publicly in full detail.
Becuase it may bring some risks with it, IMO.
At first it might "inspire" others. And it may in some way justify what that person did. Because he feels disrespected and wants to show it to the world. Broad media coverage would only give him a stage and make him achieve his goal.
Of couse it should be analized by the proper people. But just bringing the tragedy/violence to the public doesn't offer any more valuable information, wich should be the task of the news media.
It just makes violence look normal, and new children then grow up with that view.

[Jeff Head]

Am I surprised for this? Not at all. That's why I said we need to know the whole picture, the whole society need to know that.

Va. Tech Shooter Was Laughed At

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.
Sorry, but anyone who reacts to such incidents in their liofe by killing 32 innocent people is not normal, or anything close to it.

I do not know a single person in my 51 years of life who has not been made fun of, joked about, or been slighted by others, probably on numerous occassions in their life.

I have been made fun of over my name, my Texas accent, the color of my hair, being bow-legged, my religion, how many kids I have, the type of pickup truck I drive, and numerous, numerous other issues over the years. I believe most people are.

It is not nromal to react to that by deciding that society needs to suffer as a whole and then killing 32 people over it. it is seriously depraved and unhinged.

We all pray some day for a more perfect and understanding and kinder society...but we are not there yet...and probably far from it.

[fishhead]

Sorry, I doucmented my view and fact disclosed proved it's quite reasonable. I don't want to be involved in the personal experience and it's only the personal meaning.

I would say you can choose not to face the reality and just throw some curses to the killer and that's fine to me. But in that way I am afraid the worst hasn't come yet.

I know as late as 1990s the blacks in LA still had a big riot, do some killing and robbing. But I will never call them "mentally ill" since even their action is not justified due to fact that's way overaction to Kim's case, I understand it. I just want to know the reason but not to label somebody as bad or something like that.

I am almost there.

[adeptitus]

I understand some of Mr. Cho's anger. Due to my father's stupidity in manging our family finances, I came from a relatively poor background and immigrated to an alien land at a young age. In school you get picked on, and when you first start dating in high school or college, you find yourself surrounded by "privileged" children with more money than you, girls who'd date you only until they find (by their opinion/standards) someone better, and "best friends" who'd back stab you to steal/sleep with your girlfriend, then excuse themselves by saying "well, this has nothing to do with friendship". Yup, been there.

The problem was Cho, was that he thought life should be "fair" by his standards. He was angry at people who (he thought) were snobbish, stuck-up, self-centered, with ridiculously high expectations and sense of entitlement. But he never turned around to look in a mirror and realize that he himself was self-centered with unrealistic expectations and sence of entitlement. He probably thought, "women should treat me like <insert>" and "my peers should treat me like <insert>".

Well, sorry, but life doesn't work like that, and we don't live/exist for Mr. Cho's benefit. So he becomes upset and angry at everyone around him, and finally decides to shoot everyone because they don't conform to his standards. He couldn't bring himself to compromise and adopt to mainstream society, because he's self-centered to think that he's righteous and we're all in the wrong and doing him harm.

He didn't have any friends who could've taught him how to handle life in a society where you could do everything right, and still have the rug pulled out from under you. Nobody taught him how to handle rejection, keeping an eye open on back of your head, and the golden rule "Doveryay, no proveryay" (Trust, but verify) when dealing with people. About half of the people who are mentally ill show diagnosable signs by age 14. Although most never receive professional treatment, they eventually learn and adopt. Sadly, Mr. Cho never gave himself the opportunity, and many people had to die.

[AssassinsMace]

Talking on the subject of backlash, when you see anyone "Asian" commit "high-profile" crimes in the US, it's more looked upon as a foreigner doing it therefore more offensive in the minds of Americans.

In Sacramento more than a decade ago a gang of young Vietnamese held customers hostage at a Good Guys store. I think they killed around five people. There was a backlash after that where several attacks on Asians took place.

The first schoolyard shooting happened in Stockton, CA targeting elementary school children by a man who blamed Asians because he couldn't find a job.

When Rambo II was released in theaters, after watching the movie, a gang of youths went on a spree of attacks on Asians on the street. Back in the early age of cinema, there was a movie called Broken Blossum that was about an Asian man called the Mongoloid, played by an actor dressed up to look Asian, who seduced a American woman away from her husband. The husband was so distraught that he committed suicide over it. After a screening, an audience rampaged into a mob out of the theatre, marched into LA's Chinatown and burned it down. No figures were ever recorded on how many people were killed because they didn't bother back then but it was estimated a couple dozen at least. Why do I bring up that old story up? Because I was reminded of it when I saw people trying to organize a boycott of China because the Chinese tortured Jack Bauer.

Then there's a whole list of attacks and murders just because of the crime that Japan had a strong economy back in the 80s. One guy named Vincent Chin was murdered during his bachelor party having his head cracked open with a baseball bat by two Detroit autoworkers because they thought he was Japanese. They ended up with a punishment that was less than if you killed a deer out of hunting season.

Backlashes do happen and for some of the most simplist of reasons.

[fishhead]

As for my personal experience, I had a terrible time when I was young at the time when China was pretty communism. I am the person just saying whatever I want when China was at the time every body has to be in the official line.

I was isolated in the class since I refused to back down to talk nice to the student advisors and teacher in that disgusting tones. I stayed at home when the whole class went to their politcical activities. What a hell time, I understand.

[Mashan]

From some of the Asian American web forum I frequently pop in and out have been pretty jammed up with the discussion of backlash. Some Korean national actually admitted that they tell people they were Chinese or Japanese just to feel safe and never go out alone. What a shame. I can understand it well myself since I got picked on a lot back in the 70's of being Asian and in a 90% white HS.

That guy is mental and acted just like a neighbour's daughter l that I use to know long time ago. Quiet and always look down, never looks you in the eye ever. She was finally committed to a mental facility by her parents and actually got better after like 2 years time. After that she can hold a short conversion and can look you in the eye. I was so glad she came out of the shell.

If his parents get some help earlier, he might be still be living a peaceful life under care, supervision and medication. Dam* so many nice people died because he falled through the crack of the system. :(

[RedMercury]

Not to go too much offtopic, I'm curious as to what Lu wrote. Can you summarize? I was in town when that incident happened, and met one of the survivors too.

[adeptitus]

As for my personal experience, I had a terrible time when I was young at the time when China was pretty communism. I am the person just saying whatever I want when China was at the time every body has to be in the official line.

I was isolated in the class since I refused to back down to talk nice to the student advisors and teacher in that disgusting tones. I stayed at home when the whole class went to their politcical activities. What a hell time, I understand.

I grew up in Taiwan during martial law period. We had to attend "political education" events even in elementary school. The government's propaganda folks would bring in these big paintings of evil looking communists feeding saintly-looking elders some pills, and the caption would read "evil communists feed poison to elderly to kill them". They'd also have displays of ragged cotton shirts with caption "what poor oppressed mainlanders wear".

When I moved to the US, I recall opening the newspaper and saw photos from some fashion show in Shanghai. LoL.

[coolieno99]

From some of the Asian American web forum I frequently pop in and out have been pretty jammed up with the discussion of backlash. Some Korean national actually admitted that they tell people they were Chinese or Japanese just to feel safe and never go out alone. What a shame. I can understand it well myself since I got picked on a lot back in the 70's of being Asian and in a 90% white HS.

That guy is mental and acted just like a neighbour's daughter l that I use to know long time ago. Quiet and always look down, never looks you in the eye ever. She was finally committed to a mental facility by her parents and actually got better after like 2 years time. After that she can hold a short conversion and can look you in the eye. I was so glad she came out of the shell.

If his parents get some help earlier, he might be still be living a peaceful life under care, supervision and medication. Dam* so many nice people died because he falled through the crack of the system. :(

Mr. Cho had 2 strikes against him. Not only he was picked on in high school because of his race, but he was also autistic(a form of mental illness). Another words, his autism made him act peculiar just like you described about your neighbor's daughter. And at the same time his experiences with racial discrimination at his high school just made things worse.

[Mashan]

All this could have been avoided if he was treated and keep away from high stress situations. Hope they fix the mental health system. I read that 10% of college students have mental health issues ouch :confused:

[Schumacher]

........
Then there's a whole list of attacks and murders just because of the crime that Japan had a strong economy back in the 80s. One guy named Vincent Chin was murdered during his bachelor party having his head cracked open with a baseball bat by two Detroit autoworkers because they thought he was Japanese. They ended up with a punishment that was less than if you killed a deer out of hunting season.

Backlashes do happen and for some of the most simplist of reasons.

Good that you bring up this incident. It shows the ferocity of the anti-Japan feeling at that time in US just because of Japan's strength despite it being a strong US ally. Of course now with China's rise, similar feelings is directed towards China & now that Japan is useful in the China-US rivalry, Japan is portrayed as angels in the west compared to China. What a joke. :) They must think their audience is a bunch of kids.

[hanqiang1011]

Australia has gun control laws. Yes, citizens still can own firearms povided that the calibre is of a certain size. And also no semi-automatic and automatic weapons allows, meaning no AK-47, M-16, MP-5...etc. There should be no semi-auto handguns as well.

I was told by one of my Australian friend when I visited Sydney last year. The law was passed after the Port Aurther killings in Tasmania.(correct me if I was wrong)

Perhaps it is time for US government to consider reducing the amount of firearms being sold first.

[ahho]

No semi-auto pistol allowed??? That means we are backed to the age of cowboys

[Tasman]

Australia has gun control laws. Yes, citizens still can own firearms povided that the calibre is of a certain size. And also no semi-automatic and automatic weapons allows, meaning no AK-47, M-16, MP-5...etc. There should be no semi-auto handguns as well.

I was told by one of my Australian friend when I visited Sydney last year. The law was passed after the Port Aurther killings in Tasmania.(correct me if I was wrong)

Perhaps it is time for US government to consider reducing the amount of firearms being sold first.

You are correct that tough (IMO) gun laws were introduced in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre when Martin Bryant murdered 35 people (mainly tourists). He was armed with a couple of assault rifles and was in a national park area where guns were not permitted so he was the only person in the tourist complex who was armed.

The gun laws allow recreational shooting including all target shooting at authorised clubs (clay target, skeet, pistol and rifle) plus hunting providing the registered shooter has permission to shoot on private farmland that is regarded as 'safe' by police. Usually this means any farm bigger than a hobby farm or forestry land. A letter giving permission is required at the time of applying for a shooting licence. My permit only gives permission to buy a 12G shotgun (other than semi auto or pump action, both of which are now prohibited firearms) and a rimfire rifle. I have a .22 magnum rifle and a DB shotgun which I use to control rabbits on a friend's vineyard. Permits for high powered rifles are available but semi auto weapons are prohibited except for property owners who can buy a semi auto rimfire rifle or a semi auto centrefire with a max magazine capacity of 5 rounds. Semi auto shotguns are prohibited which was a sore point with me because I had to surrender an old Browning that I had owned for 30 years. The laws were rushed in and the ban of some types of firearm like semi auto shotguns resulted from well meaning politicians who knew little about shooting. There was general agreement from most people with some aspects, like the ban on assault weapons (although it was a blow to me as I owned two) and the strict storage requirements (I have to keep my guns in a locked cupboard and the ammunition has to be locked away separately). Gun suicides have declined significantly though the over all suicide rate has stayed constant - people just find other ways! Firearm related homocides have declined but that decline had started before the new laws were brought in!

Interestingly it is estimated that the number of guns in Australia has not reduced but the type of firearm has. The trouble is that criminal gangs still seem to be able to get hold of pistols, etc, from the black-market.

BTW. semi auto pistols are allowed for target shooting but a strong anti gun lobby is currently using the VA Tech murders as 'evidence' that they should be banned.


Cheers

[Vlad Plasmius]

Hearing how Cho was treated make me feel sad, but it is altogether predictable.

People will ignore his words because they'll label him insane. They won't acknowledge that when you cut through all the exaggerations from his tortured mind you'll find a great deal of truth to what he says.

Sadly, we live in a society that is judgmental, discriminatory, and selfish. I imagine all Cho really wanted was someone to treat him like an equal. Not treat him like he was some reject.

I find it disgusting and insensitive that people will talk of how they were treated bad so he shouldn't care. Obviously, everyone is treated at some point for some reason, but that doesn't mean everyone is the same and should react the same way. He probably should have opened up and just not given a damn what others think, but that can be hard to do when you don't even have one person who regards you with real kindness.

[crazyinsane105]

Yes, it is quite unfortunate that in our society, if somebody looks, dresses, talks, or acts differently, we simply make fun of them. Just watch American Idol. A lot of people simply watch that show just so that Simon can tear apart somebody for not being able to sing properly and the sad part is that people simply find that funny. In high school, well, it's probably safe to assume that most of our members have either been past high school or are still in it right now, and can probably agree that high school can be a rough period for somebody's life especially if they don't exactly fit in. Yet we simply won't change, even with horrible incidents like these. No, a person in Cho's shoes usually won't go ahead and commit a mass murder, but being bullied to the point where they are simply ashamed of being themselves is a serious cause of side effects for one's future. All the bullying and what not pretty much ends once you hit college since people accept you for who you really are, but still, the high school bullying has effects on people. When will people learn...

[zraver]

Strange, seeing it again and again and again. Just need to read the first words: school/university, killed and a death toll of 10+. And I absolutely know the location must be the US. And still peaople want to be able to acces guns even more easily ...


Unless of course it happens to be a madman with an AK in Scotland, a mass murderer in Austrailia, or Shite/Sunni death squads in Iraq. The gun violence in South Africa is so bad its not even news. The chances of being violently assulted in Europe dwarf the US (who only leads in gun violence) blah blah blah.

If more honest law abiding citizens packed heat you would have a much kinder gentler society. Contray to popular myth the wild west was realtively violence free becuase every one packed a gun and guns breed civility.

Golli, the term well regulated milita when viewd with the meanings of the words as they were understood at the time, means the states militia being well drilled and trained and properly equipped, not gun laws. Every Supreme Court decsion on the 2nd has affirmed the militia (not National Guard) meanign of the 2nd and this is why non-military weapons are so easily banned (sawed off shot guns) and why even the most dangerous military firearms can still be legally purchased (M-16's, AK-74, FN's etc).

[The_Zergling]

In theory, a fully armed society is a polite society. Alternatively, it's a constant Mexican standoff waiting to happen.