Top Heavy RN?

[Obi Wan Russell]

I've been brewing a theory, somewhat radical, for some time as to the future disposition of the RN. Bear with me, it's still percolating to a degree as I write this!

Within the context of Europe and/or NATO, at the moment and for some time the RN has been duplicating the capabilities of other member states' Navies, ie Frigates! What the RN should concentrate on is what it can bring to the table that other European Nations cannot (France excepted, and to a lesser degree Spain and Italy): Big Ships! Aircraft Carriers and Type 45 DDGs. So if we 'trade in' the Frigate force (stay with me, I have a replacement force in mind) and from the top down we have a Royal Navy with three CVFs, two LPHs, twelve Type 45s and the existing amphibious force. The FAA would be expanded to six F-35 sqns and the Merlin force would also be expanded to compensate (to a degree) for the lost ASW capacity of the frigates, even back as far as the Sea King HAS1 the helos were described as 'flying frigates' and the Merlin brings so much more to the table. Each type 45 would be equipped with two (shoehorn them in if needed) and they would also be based aboard the RFAs (as now). On coalition ops other nations can provide the escorts needed to make up numbers while the RN provides the bigger ships.

To cover the many other tasks currently fulfilled by the Frigate force, I would opt for an enlarged version of HMS Clyde, the new Falklands patrol ship. a strtched hull with helo hangar as well as pad able to operate a lynx (but with a pad big ehough to land a Merlin for refuelling/rearming and facilities to support Army Apaches if needed, depending on tasking. These 'Corvettes would have increased endurance, am OTO 3inch gun forward, 8 Harpoon block II, and either Phalanx or RAM atop the hangar. Requiring much smaller complements than a frigate, they could carry out the 'guardship' and anti piracy/ drug running patrols which have been keeping our frigates busy for the last few decades, and I would order between 16-20 of them to meet the current commitments. Sort of a British 'Avisio', and additionally, borrowing an idea voiced on another forum (a good idea is a good idea, wherever it comes from), I woud buy a force of CB90 patrol boats which would in the short term be based aboard two of the Bay class LSDs for operations in areas like the Persian Gulf. In the longer term two (or more) dedicated supoort ships for the CB90s would be built to allow them to deploy globally and sustain operations (submit your own specs here).

If the RN was operating purely on its own independant of other navies then a strong frigate force is a must, but it's been 25 years since that was required. Back in 66 Denis Healy (words cannot express my loathing for that guy...) said that in the future (ie where we are now) the RN would never again conduct independent operations and used this as an excuse to axe the carrier force. In reality his logic was upside down, what matters in joint ops is what speciallities you can bring to the table, and then as now what the RN could provide that other Euro Navies cannot is the 'upper half of the pyramid', carriers and DDGs (perhaps even cruisers) whilst the Dutch, Belgians, Danes, Germans, Poles, Spanish, Italians etc provide the Frigates. In other parts of the world nations such as Australia could also contribute likewise, and obviously the mighty USN would be there too (didn't mention them earlier as I hate to point out the bleeding obvious!). As large as the US armed forces are, they certainly appreciate contributions from allies even if only token in nature. Knowing that in future ops the RN can provide at least one CSG at short notice with significant strike capability and could generate another shortly thereafter would go a long way on Capitol hill. If the CVFs are CTOL operating F-35Cs and Hawkeyes (my preferred choice) then cross decking from US CVNs becomes possible, including detachments of F/A-18G 'Growlers' to plug a gap in RN capability (possibly with British pilots on exchange).

Can this plan be afforded? Yes easily. We are only spending 2.5% of GDP on defence currently, compared to 5% in the eighties. A return to those funding levels would pay for all this with money to spare, some of which I would spend on more Nimrod MRA4s (new build, not resurected old airframes) as this aircraft has a lot of potential over land battles as well as at sea. The Commando Helicopter force Sea King HC4s would be replaced by Merlin HC4s (Navalised HC3s, before you ask) on at least a one for one basis. Two sqns of RAF Chinooks with folding rotor blades would also be availabe for amphibious ops under CHF tasking.

Likely? Of course not. But this my answer to those 'elements' who are pressuring the RN to become just a Frigate force like Holland or Germany has, which I firmly believe would be folly of the highest order.

[bd popeye]

Within the context of Europe and/or NATO, at the moment and for some time the RN has been duplicating the capabilities of other member states' Navies, ie Frigates! What the RN should concentrate on is what it can bring to the table that other European Nations cannot (France excepted, and to a lesser degree Spain and Italy): Big Ships! Aircraft Carriers and Type 45 DDGs. So if we 'trade in' the Frigate force (stay with me, I have a replacement force in mind) and from the top down we have a Royal Navy with three CVFs, two LPHs, twelve Type 45s and the existing amphibious force. The FAA would be expanded to six F-35 sqns and the Merlin force would also be expanded to compensate (to a degree) for the lost ASW capacity of the frigates, even back as far as the Sea King HAS1 the helos were described as 'flying frigates' and the Merlin brings so much more to the table. Each type 45 would be equipped with two (shoehorn them in if needed) and they would also be based aboard the RFAs (as now). On coalition ops other nations can provide the escorts needed to make up numbers while the RN provides the bigger ships.


Too bad Obi wan is not in charge of the RN.:) Presonally I like your idea. And it is not as far fetched as some may think. I think the funds maybe avaliable for such a force. If by some mircale this would take place.

Questions.
1) How many aircraft make up an FAA squadron?
2) How long does the FAA plan on keeping the Sea Kings? Are any replacements in the future?

[SampanViking]

ITs a fine idea in principle, but I think we all know that Britain would need to experience a major Political/Social Earthquake for such an option to become acceptable.

This method would require mutual interdependance on all NATO, but principally EU countries and would remove the RN's ability to act as an independant force. There are no shortage of facets to this but many would point out that the UK would have been unable to participate in the Coalition of the willing, had it been dependant on the acquiescence and material participation of its European partners.

[Gollevainen]

well what the politicans want to see from that is to run down the expensive frigate fleet...BUT not to take steps to increase the 'capital' units, but uses it as way to cut expenses...
Of what I would like to see is independent european defences without depending into US help. In that case, the RN would naturally have a leading role of what it comes in European fleet and its spear-edge.

[Obi Wan Russell]

As far as I know, the FAA F-35 sqns are currently scheduled to have at least 12 aircraft each, possibly as many as 18. A lot of rumour mongers are saying only nine each but these are probably the same people who want the RN to only have frigates anyway (ie RAF fanboys). A couple of years ago a report from the MOD decided the Commando Sea King force should be replaced by Merlins, with Chinooks added to the mix. There was some minor squabbling over who should operate the Chinooks, but as long as the RN gets a full complement of Merlins then the RAF can keep the Chinooks as it already has the support organisation for them. So far no orders for the Merlins have been forthcoming, though as the Sea Kings have been worked quite hard in the last few years they are wearing out and replacements cannot be postponed much longer. Already six redundant HAS6 airframes have been converted to HAS6C standard to suplement the HC4s and more may follow as a matter of necessity soon.

Political Earthquake? Yes probably. These things do happen now and again though, as in 66 (negatively) and 82 (Falklands). I mentioned the Euro/NATO context as so many think that is the obvious future, but we would still have been in the coalition with this fleet plan. Do you think the Americans would have turned down one or two RN CSGs simply because we would have needed the US or Australia to provide some extra escorts? Any coalition involving the US will not be short of escorts if nothing else. The 'Corvettes' would offset the imbalance to a degree, and with twelve type 45s a RN CSG would not be short of suitable escorts of it's own (obviously not all twelve at once, up to four in the CSG with one or two more covering the RFAs).


Of what I would like to see is independent european defences without depending into US help. In that case, the RN would naturally have a leading role of what it comes in European fleet and its spear-edge.

My point exactly. It's all about what each nation can bring to the table, and avoiding unecessary duplication. If it's Frigates, then almost any Nato Nation can provide them. Not many are in a position to provide large AAW DDGs and CVs, so those that can, should.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8757/gbopvvtglobalpatrolcorvct5.th.gif (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gbopvvtglobalpatrolcorvct5.gif)
Here's my idea for a 'Patrol Corvette', a class of up to 20 would suffice for most of the peacetime jobs currently occupying the Frigate force. Almost an RN Littoral Combat Ship.

[Scratch]

A very nice idea I really apreciate.
However, doomed as long as people in the govnts. fear to be interdependet. Especially since the UK seems to look more over the big pond instead of looking over the small channel.
It would give Europe the capability to act more independently. So far we have the same force structure all over again. (In this case every navy starts from the corvettes over frigates, and if possible affords few DDGs CVs.)

Edit: Obi Wan, don't know if it's just not shown, but for an OPV some more barrels seem helpfull to me ... two more cal .50 and perhaps a 20/25mm gun.

[Neutral Zone]

Very good ideas Obi Wan, unfortunately I don't think the political class has the foresight to implement it. :mad: The bean counters only see the big ships with their large crew complements as easy targets for cuts. They are incapable of seeing the bigger picture.

[Obi Wan Russell]

Edit: Obi Wan, don't know if it's just not shown, but for an OPV some more barrels seem helpfull to me ... two more cal .50 and perhaps a 20/25mm gun.

Currently when RN Frigates and Destroyers deploy somewhere like the gulf they have a lot of GPMGs mounted aound the deck edges, but these can be removed in moments when on curtesy visits to friendly ports. My corvette would have plenty onboard as well as heavier guns, please feel free to position them wherever you feel necessary, along with man portable anti tank weapons (to make short work of Iranian Revolutionary Guard fast boats) and supplementary MANPADS such as stingers. The Weapon fit can be altered to suit the mission if a modular approach is adopted, along the lines of the MEKO frigates. I have simply illustrated a fairly standard 'General Purpose' fit for Global Patrol duties. A sqn of these in the Gulf right now and there would have been no hostage crisis, as at least one of them would have been within a hundred yards of the boarding party at all times.:nono:

As am alternative to the above Corvette design, perhaps a development of the Trimaran RV Triton, as such a ship would have the stability and extra deck space normally associated with larger ships; larger helos could be embarked and more positions for mounting weapons become available. The RN in this form would actually begin to mirror it's disposition of nearly a century ago, with a 'Grand Fleet' (CVs, DDGs) and colonial gunboats (corvettes, or to use modern parlance, Littoral Combat Ships) with the Amphibious force/Rapid Reaction Force ready to deploy 'Martini style' (Anytime, Anyplace, Anywhere!). As compensation for the loss of the frigates, I'd increase the SSN force to twelve units, as SSNs are the best ASW weapons by far (my brother served on them so there is a little family bias here!). I believe this composition of the RN would suit the needs of the next few decades better than the existing model, and nice as it is to have shiny modern frigates, they were designed to hunt Soviet Subs in the North Atlantic, not terrorists in the Gulf. The USN is moving to new ship types (LCS, DDG1000 or whatever they're calling it these days) and the RN has a reputation for being on the cutting edge. This is my concept for staying there.

[Scratch]

Ok, with your permission, a slightly modified OPV.
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/981/globalpatrolcorvetteeb5.th.jpg (http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=globalpatrolcorvetteeb5.jpg)
Moved the main gun forward. Put a 4x Starstreak short-range-anti-air launcher in that place. Two cal.50 MG mounts on the bow, two 7,62mm MG mounts at the stern.
Changed CIWS with a multi-porpous cannon. 25mm Oto Melara or 30mm Bushmaster II. Supposed to engage surface and air targets. Uses Goalkeeper or Phalanx systems to engage air targets. Fires a mix of amor-piercing, HE and AHEAD rounds for superior efficiancy in all aspects. Forward a 4x launcher for TOW, HOT, Milan, Trigat ... whatever you like.
And you could consider Polyphem instead of Harpoon, for some missions.

Britain is currently building the only real destroyer in europe. And it could really stick with that. There are a lot of (heavy) frigates coming into the european navies in the next years. The FREMM program brings a modern ASW/ attack frigate to the european fleet. The Horizon is perhaps a little redundant to the Type 45 (though smaller)
The Spanish-German-Dutsh programs also bring AAW Frigates into service. Well, some frigates to augment britsh 45s would probably do a good job.
Now these utilize the SM-2/ ESSM mix. On the one hand interoperability with AEGIS/PAAMS might perhaps be a little hindrance. But on the other hand it probably amplifies the mix. Though I deem Asters the better performing missiles, some SM-2s for really long range engagements might help.
Now Britain relying on italo-francen ASW frigates would also add the obligation to Britain to provie AAW coverage to others when neccessary. (If those others would agree to rely on their part >> ASW GP)
The french and dutsh could offer modern LPD / Command ships (Rotterdam, Mistral)

[Obi Wan Russell]

Ok, with your permission, a slightly modified OPV.
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/981/globalpatrolcorvetteeb5.th.jpg (http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=globalpatrolcorvetteeb5.jpg)
Moved the main gun forward. Put a 4x Starstreak short-range-anti-air launcher in that place. Two cal.50 MG mounts on the bow, two 7,62mm MG mounts at the stern.
Changed CIWS with a multi-porpous cannon. 25mm Oto Melara or 30mm Bushmaster II. Supposed to engage surface and air targets. Uses Goalkeeper or Phalanx systems to engage air targets. Fires a mix of amor-piercing, HE and AHEAD rounds for superior efficiancy in all aspects. Forward a 4x launcher for TOW, HOT, Milan, Trigat ... whatever you like.
And you could consider Polyphem instead of Harpoon, for some missions.

Britain is currently building the only real destroyer in europe. And it could really stick with that. There are a lot of (heavy) frigates coming into the european navies in the next years. The FREMM program brings a modern ASW/ attack frigate to the european fleet. The Horizon is perhaps a little redundant to the Type 45 (though smaller)
The Spanish-German-Dutsh programs also bring AAW Frigates into service. Well, some frigates to augment britsh 45s would probably do a good job.
Now these utilize the SM-2/ ESSM mix. On the one hand interoperability with AEGIS/PAAMS might perhaps be a little hindrance. But on the other hand it probably amplifies the mix. Though I deem Asters the better performing missiles, some SM-2s for really long range engagements might help.
Now Britain relying on italo-francen ASW frigates would also add the obligation to Britain to provie AAW coverage to others when neccessary. (If those others would agree to rely on their part >> ASW GP)
The french and dutsh could offer modern LPD / Command ships (Rotterdam, Mistral)

Very nice variant, just the kind of suggestions I was hoping for. 16 to 20 of these operating under cover of type 45s and CVFs fits the RNs needs more than the rather negative suggestion of 6 type 45s and 8-10 type 23s some are predicting. Expeditionary warfare is the way of the future (and coincidentally, the past!) whereas the North atlantic scenario of the NATO years has dominated thinking for far too long. I have heard it said from a number of sources that the RN spent twenty years and countless millions re equipping for the NATO ASW role and finished the job two weeks before the requirement lapsed! Well now we should get back to the roles and ships that the RN does best;- world policing. If you don't think we should be part of the 'world police' then we have no business being in the UN and should go down the isolationist path. We all know where that leads...

Britain currently has the largest Amphibious force in Europe, although I would add another LPH to the mix (actually this has happened, with HMS Ark Royal being re-roled to cover for HMS Ocean during her upcoming refit), but extra units from ther NATO navies are always welcome. A lot of give and take/horse trading would be essential for this plan to work, but that has been SOP for NATO since it was formed. I have come across some negative comments about this idea on another forum, simply objecting to the concept of a 'two tier' navy, but the "Pax Brittanica" was maintained for over a century by a two tier force. The French Navy operates such a formation to this day (upper end with a CV, DDGs and FFs and a lower tier with 'Avisos', or colonial sloops carrying frigate pennant numbers) and this allows them to maintain sufficient numbers to meet worldwide commitments, something the RN is struggling to do now and is unlikely to be able to continue to do in future if they carry on as now. The RN spends relatively little time hunting subs in the North Atlantic and a lot of time patroling littoral waters looking for terrorists and smugglers. Doesn't it make sense to tailor the fleet for the latter mission rather than the former? As I have said in previous posts the ASW mission will still be catered for with extra Merlins and Astute class SSNs, while the surface fleet will be increased in number with ships better suited to the tasks they are routinely given. The prototype for the 'Corvette', the smaller HMS Clyde, has been deemed adequate for patroling the South Atlantic so why not an upgunned and enlarged class for the rest of the world's oceans?

The issue of independant RN ops has been raised, well if the fleet I have outlined was available in 1982 they would have made short work of the Argentine forces in the Falklands. A task force of two CVFs (assuming a third in refit), and six to eight type 45s for air defence/shore bombardment ( they could look after themselves on the NGFS mission much better than say a type 23 could) along with a sqn of about 8 'Corvettes' (each with a Lynx helo for ASW protection and other duties mentioned elsewhere) for outer ring escort and ARG defence (they would also follow the Amphibs to San Carlos water in this role) overall would be a better mix than the ships actually sent. For one thing the FAA would have a much larger fighter force (2x 36 F-35s) plus an AEW capability that would most likely mean close to zero ship losses on the British side. The Amphibious force would be much larger to start with (including at least one LPH and more helos than were actually used, as so many were lost on the unprotected Atlantic Conveyer), and would not need to rely on requisitioned merchant ships nearly so much. Even if only one CVF is initially available, it's airgroup would be bigger and more capable than those of Hermes and Invincible, which it should be remembered lacked any AEW capability at all.

[perfectgeneral]

I love the top heavy RN idea. 2 CTOL CVF and 12 Daring class. Great. I'd go for 2 F-35b CVF carriers instead of the LPHs. That's four in total, any of which can carry an LPH worth (more) of helicoptors and troops. Better make that sixteen Daring class, at least eight of which will need an ASW capability. CVF will need larger escorts (than the rest of europe have) to keep up with them in rough sea states.

We are operating from a 5% of GDP budget, right? Eight Astute class SSN then eight to a new design after the SSBNs are built. For general 'police' work we could use 12 lengthened OPV(H) (as illustrated so well) and twelve 2500t Triton style corvettes (keep those design studios working). I've seen some posts on other boards that suggest modular configuration for the OPV equipment. Sometimes MCM and UUWVs, then ASW towed array or back to helo pad and hanger, depending on the mission.

These are all just numbers plucked out of mid air without much thought to mission requirements (carrier groups have political missions outside of the existing RN committments).

[Obi Wan Russell]

I love the top heavy RN idea. 2 CTOL CVF and 12 Daring class. Great. I'd go for 2 F-35b CVF carriers instead of the LPHs. That's four in total, any of which can carry an LPH worth (more) of helicoptors and troops. Better make that sixteen Daring class, at least eight of which will need an ASW capability. CVF will need larger escorts (than the rest of europe have) to keep up with them in rough sea states.

We are operating from a 5% of GDP budget, right? Eight Astute class SSN then eight to a new design after the SSBNs are built. For general 'police' work we could use 12 lengthened OPV(H) (as illustrated so well) and twelve 2500t Triton style corvettes (keep those design studios working). I've seen some posts on other boards that suggest modular configuration for the OPV equipment. Sometimes MCM and UUWVs, then ASW towed array or back to helo pad and hanger, depending on the mission.

These are all just numbers plucked out of mid air without much thought to mission requirements (carrier groups have political missions outside of the existing RN committments).

I would stil go with three CTOL CVFs at the top end of the fleet, as this guarantees one deployed/deployable at all times. I also called for two LPHs to spearhead the ARG, but didn't specify the type. If a variant of the CVF hull is used the economies of scale must surely help bring down individual unit costs (as the class would now be six units, 3 CTOL, 2 LPH and 1 French PA) although I wouldn't for a moment suggest the savings would be huge by any means, they would be significant.

Eight + Eight SSNs is fine by me, I merely said the SSN force is too small at just eight units + 3 or 4 SSBNs. 12 SSNs is my minimum requirement, 16 replaces the Frigates ASW coverage nicely and more effectively. The Darings all have an inherent ASW capability now by virtue of the Helo(s) carried, and installing a Hull mounted sonar/towed array (take your pick) along with triple 12.75inch torpedo tubes on the deck would not add greatly to their cost (I thought they would have these items anyway, someone will correct me soon enough). Twelve is my minimum requirement again, 16 would be very nice (remember we are trading in frigates for these and the corvette force) and the main purpose of the excercise is to restore sufficient numbers of useful ships to the RN to allow it to meet it's current and future commitments, something it clearly cannot do under current and future plans.:nono:

Ultimately I'd argue that we are probably spending the right amount of money on defence now (more is always welcome of course), we just aren't spending it in the right places (Too many Typhoons, not enough carriers and escorts) and this thread's purpose is to give voice to alternatives.

[Gollevainen]

Of what just came to my mind is that If you look at european ASW assets, the best two desings, Type22 and Type23 have been from Britain. Other major frigate producers, Netherlands (which have now retired the Kortaeners and moved on to AAW) vessels, France, Germany and Italy....they havent produced a par desing to those two superior cold war era subhunters.

Also most of all new european large surface ships have been AAW vessels as the Soviet submarine thread was gone (for awhile). But wouldn't this speculation has to assume that european fleets would still keep up good ASW capacity? If there is any convetional thread to Europe, it would be rising Russia and Russians know that if they are about to rerise into martime power, they propaply start with the same logic that did in the 20's and that was to concentrate on submarines. So one could assume that there still will be days that the main 'opponent' of western europe uses submarines as its main platforms.
So would be bit premature to the leading country in ASW devolpment to cut this expertiece and knowhow that it has gained (after many painfull sacrifices) during the cold war years?

[adeptitus]

Hmm... if I were purchasing Frigates, I'd probably opt for something similar to Singapore's Formidable class with TAS and towed decoy. Also, instead of 8 x Harpoons, I'd replace it with 1-2 x 4-cel Mk.57 VLS (or 1 x 8-cel Mk.48 VLS) equipped with VL-ASROC.

The ship would be smaller and cheaper than the FREMM "frigate" but more expensive than enlarged Corvette concepts. IMO these days the chance of ship-to-ship combat with SSM's is pretty low, but I wouldn't want to depend on 1 helicopter as my sole ASW asset.

[Obi Wan Russell]

Of what just came to my mind is that If you look at european ASW assets, the best two desings, Type22 and Type23 have been from Britain. Other major frigate producers, Netherlands (which have now retired the Kortaeners and moved on to AAW) vessels, France, Germany and Italy....they havent produced a par desing to those two superior cold war era subhunters.

Also most of all new european large surface ships have been AAW vessels as the Soviet submarine thread was gone (for awhile). But wouldn't this speculation has to assume that european fleets would still keep up good ASW capacity? If there is any convetional thread to Europe, it would be rising Russia and Russians know that if they are about to rerise into martime power, they propaply start with the same logic that did in the 20's and that was to concentrate on submarines. So one could assume that there still will be days that the main 'opponent' of western europe uses submarines as its main platforms.
So would be bit premature to the leading country in ASW devolpment to cut this expertiece and knowhow that it has gained (after many painfull sacrifices) during the cold war years?

Absolutely. I don't really want to get rid of the 22s/23s if possible, but they could be passed to other european Navies (slim hope I know) and I have already catered for the ASW role by increasing the SSN force. SSNs (and SSKs, come back Upholder class, all is forgiven!) are the best ASW weapons of all (as I said previously, my brother served aboard Some of them so there is a little second hand experience seeping through here) and the Merlin force would be increased also to compensate. The Type 45s will also have a degree of ASW capability (as do their predecessors, the Type 42s) and any future RN CSG will have a couple of SSNs attached just as the USN does now.

[Gollevainen]

well the Type22/23 are begin to be old...but they are results of good tradition in RN frigates and simply passing them on to another user would mean that their capacities will still be avialable...but the issue comes in hand when the next generation of ASW surface vessels are needed.

[Obi Wan Russell]

well the Type22/23 are begin to be old...but they are results of good tradition in RN frigates and simply passing them on to another user would mean that their capacities will still be avialable...but the issue comes in hand when the next generation of ASW surface vessels are needed.

My point is that unless/until the submarine threat resurfaces (pardon the pun) the surface fleet should not be biased towards what has become a secondary or even tertiary role. Expeditionary warfare and Littoral warfare are the current and future arenas, and ASW must become subsidiary to these roles. The capability and expertise should certainly be retained as much as possible, but as the recent crisis has shown, a large ASW Frigate designed for hunting Soviet subs in the North Atlantic was less than ideal for policing the northern (shallow) end of the Persian Gulf. There is no reason why a large hulled warship like a Type 45 should not be equipped with the most advanced ASW sensors and weapons (that is the primary reason for the helo, a Merlin in these ships, which is primarily an ASW asset) despite being officially biased towards AAW. Even the older type 42s were as capable in the ASW role as many of the contemporary ASW dedicated frigates. In the RN since the sixties, the distinction between Destroyer and Frigate has evolved to mean the latter was an ASW ship with limited air defences and anti ship capability whilst the former was AAW ship with the same ASW/ASuW capability as the frigate primarily for task force defence. The type 45s follow this tradition and are not single role (ie AAW) ships but multi role escorts, albeit afflicted with the dreaded 'fitted for but not with' disease inflicted by the teasury.

It all boils down to a quality versus quantity argument, you can have the best Frigates in the world but if you can only afford a couple of them and one will always be in port/dock then they aren't much use. A minimum number of escorts are needed to be useful and fulfill worldwide commitments, and with modern technology/automation/weapons/sensors/communications a larger number of smaller ships becomes a more viable option for the 'world policing' role. Added to this an increased 'Battle Fleet' (CVs, DDGs and SSNs) able to concentrate firepower when it is required and we have a fleet that is able to do what is asked of it, rather than the overstretched under resourced ill equipped for the task fleet we have now.

[Tasman]

Great concept Obi Wan Russell. As bdpopeye said:
"Too bad Obi wan is not in charge of the RN.

My only initial hesitation was a worry about a Falklands type situation but as I read further posts it became obvious that your fleet would more than cover such a scenario. Much better in fact than the fleet of 1982!

It is refreshing to see someone who can 'think outside the square' and come up with some realistic and workable alternatives rather than just preserving the same ideas in an ever shrinking fleet. It reminds me a bit of what 'Jackie' Fisher did when he revolutionised the RN in the years leading up to WW1. He swept away old, slow, middle sized ships and pushed the development of powerful battlehips and battlecruisers, fast light cruisers (equivalent in size to today's frigates), destroyers (equivalent in size to today's corvettes) and submarines.

Cheers

[Obi Wan Russell]

Jackie Fisher has always been an inspiration to me, even though some of his ideas were flawed he dared to think them in the first place and carry them through to completion. If only he had been around another twenty to thirty years (he died in 1920) one can only imagine how different the RN would have been at the start of WW2.

[Tasman]

Jackie Fisher has always been an inspiration to me, even though some of his ideas were flawed he dared to think them in the first place and carry them through to completion. If only he had been around another twenty to thirty years (he died in 1920) one can only imagine how different the RN would have been at the start of WW2.

I agree. After his death the RN reverted to much more conservative designs for their ships. I think a navy led by Fisher may have had (within the bounds of the Washington and London Naval Treaties) fewer but more modern and more powerful ships.

Cheers

[IDonT]

Jackie Fisher has always been an inspiration to me, even though some of his ideas were flawed he dared to think them in the first place and carry them through to completion. If only he had been around another twenty to thirty years (he died in 1920) one can only imagine how different the RN would have been at the start of WW2.

The Pre-WW II RN was a product of 2 things:
1.) The Washington Naval treaty
2.) Post WWI British financing

After WWI, the British economy went from a lender to a creditor nation. It simply did not have enough money to keep the 2 power standard. The Washington treaty was a god send in that it artificially kept the RN dominance.

[Tasman]

The Pre-WW II RN was a product of 2 things:
1.) The Washington Naval treaty
2.) Post WWI British financing

After WWI, the British economy went from a lender to a creditor nation. It simply did not have enough money to keep the 2 power standard. The Washington treaty was a god send in that it artificially kept the RN dominance.

The RN was certainly struggling after WW1. Although numerically they had the largest fleet it was in danger of falling well behind both the USA and Japan in the qualitative capability of its battle fleet. At the time the Washington treaty was signed the USN had no fewer than 10 battleships and 6 battlecruisers under construction, all with 16" guns. Japan had 8 battleships including 4 with 18" guns and the rest with 16" guns and 8 battlecruisers with 16" guns. The new Japanese ships were also fast in the case of the battleships and well armoured in the case of the battlecruisers, so in some ways they were binging the two types together, a prelude to the fast battleships of WW2. The RN by comparison had 4 battlecruisers with 16' guns on order and 4 battleships with 18" guns projected, with some doubt as to whether they would actually be funded. Once these programs were complete the British battle fleet would have been outgunned by either the IJN or the USN.

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