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tphuang
03-13-2007, 07:53 PM
This is kind of interesting, I found this article regarding the interception of ICBMs today. A Russian view at it if you will.


By YURY ZAITSEV
MOSCOW, March 12 (UPI) -- First of two parts
On Dec. 13, 2001, George W. Bush declared that the United States would
unilaterally withdraw from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, and a year
later he ordered the deployment of an anti-missile defense system.
The reaction of top-level officials in Russia was low-key. Some voiced
"regret," and Yury Baluyevsky, then first deputy chief of the General Staff of
Russia, said that steps by the United States to put a global anti-missile
shield in place by 2010-2015, or perhaps even 2020, "posed no threat to
Russia's security."
Indeed, the next 10 to 15 years are going to be a political rather than a
military headache for Russia. The technology to develop an effective intercept
network, especially against individually targetable warheads, does not
currently exist. The only unpleasant note for Russia will be its greater
exposure to the system's components, which will be located in Poland and the
Czech Republic.
The trajectory of an intercontinental ballistic missile can be divided into
four phases. The first is the boost phase: from launch to engine burnout and
jettisoning at an altitude of 120 miles to 180 miles. In the case of solid-
propellant missiles, this phase may last up to three minutes, and with liquid-
propellant ones up to five minutes.
The remaining missile bus contains nuclear warheads, a control system, vernier
engines and devices to help the missile penetrate enemy defenses, called
"penetration aids." The latter include heavy and light decoys identical in
temperature, effective scatter area and flight velocity to live re-entry
vehicles, and hundreds of thousands of chaff pieces to confuse an enemy radar.
In the second phase, when instructed by the control system, the bus maneuvers
into the first pre-calculated position and fires a warhead and some of the
penetration aids against target No. 1. Then it moves into the second pre-
calculated position, then the third, and so on, depending on the number of
nuclear warheads carried. Each maneuver takes 30 to 40 seconds.
The third phase is the ballistic coasting of all elements released - real and
dummy - at altitudes of up to 720 miles. This phase lasts 15 to 20 minutes.
The final and shortest phase is less than a minute long, with "clouds" of
elements entering the atmosphere at an altitude of 66 miles to 72 miles and at
speeds of around 4.2 miles per second. Air drag causes the dummy elements to
fall behind heavier combat units.
Nevertheless, identifying a warhead surrounded by a bevy of decoys is
incredibly difficult in engineering terms and is unlikely to be achieved in the
near future. So no anti-missile system will be effective unless it can destroy
missiles in the first, or boost, phase, which affords the best conditions for
pinpointing from the infrared glow of their burning engines and targeting
interceptors.
The destruction of missiles is made easier by their large size and relatively
low mechanical sturdiness. But interception at this phase is possible only if a
ground-based interceptor is faster than the attacking missile and not more than
500 kilometers away, in the case of liquid-fueled ballistic missiles, or 300
kilometers in the case of solid-propellant missiles. The Americans themselves
concede that missiles launched from Russia's hinterland would be impossible to
intercept, which explains their desire to move anti-missiles closer to the
Russian border.


What I find interesting is the mention dummy elements in this article, because I know that the Chinese ICBMs are probably not equipped with multiple warheads, can they still carry decoys?

Also, what's the current capability of the American BMD against ICBMs with multiple warheads. I guess Sea Dog would be the best at answering this question.




Scratch
04-12-2008, 03:19 PM
Researching the subject, I found this old thread. And maybe someone can help me here.

Lately, I had a discussion over the Patriot's effectiveness in the II and III Gulf War.
Regarding the second gulf war, Operation Desert Storm, the picture has become pretty clear. Patriots effectiveness was vastly exaggerated by the DoD. I found allegations that only 0-25% of Patriot missiles fired at TBMs intercepted the targets.
It is said, however, that most missiles at least exploded rather close to the targets altering their trajectory or damaging them causing debris and intact warheads fall to the ground. While this is of course a clear failure to intercept, it is of interest to me. When using a BMD capability in a war for the first time, they were at least close, though it didn't help at all. Correct?

Now comes the third gulf war. And here it gets more diffuse.
The numbers of TBMs fired by Iraq I found range from twelve to 20+. All being FROG-7, Al Abil 100 or Al Samoud II. I found reporst that all but nine weren't engaged because they posed no threat falling into the (Kuwaiti) desert or the ocean. I also found that of the nine TBMs engaged, all are said to be succesfull interceptions. But I had one site that reported the HQ of I think 15th brigade/3rd Div (?) was hit by a missile, while the brigade was conducting an operation close to Baghdad. Another missile was intercepted just short before hitting the highest in theater HQ (don't remember what it was), causing debris to fall into the camp.
I found that allegedly 22 PAC-3s were fired and several dozen to 100+ Patriots in total, the rest being PAC-2 GEM and PAC-2 GEM/+. I think one Patriot each was fired on a british Tornado GR4 and a USN F-18. None of three or so Silkworms was engaged because none came within the range of a Patriot battery.

So, can anyone give me usefull numbers and references as to how effective Patriot was?
I'd also like to know if any BMs were fired at Israel in '03, I couldn't find that there were.

The missile segment enhancement is now to further improve PAC-3's ABM performance adding a better motor and new fins I think.
I haven't really heared of the THAAD for some time now, what happened to that?
And the naval SM-3 seems to be pretty well on course.
The ABL and the NCADE program offer another approach to BMD.
Now it's to be seen when the combination of al those programm will bear fruits.

Finn McCool
04-12-2008, 07:29 PM
[QUOTE=Scratch;80984]
But I had one site that reported the HQ of I think 15th brigade/3rd Div (?) was hit by a missile, while the brigade was conducting an operation close to Baghdad. /QUOTE]

That's true. It was a Frog-7, hitting the HQ of one of the brigades of the 3rd Div. I'm not sure if it was the 15th, but if that's what the website says it's probably right. I think 7 people died. It was the most casualties that the US took in one incident during the initial invasion, IIRC. I don't think that that one qualifies for your study though because all the Patriot batteries were in Kuwait or SA right, not up several hundred miles north near Baghdad? Anyway I'm just confirming that this is true.

planeman
04-13-2008, 12:20 AM
Would Frog 7 count in the current ABM debate? I thought it flew on a lower trajectory, far too low for ExoAtmospheric interceptors like SM3. A system to intercept Frog-7 would be quite different than one to intercept an ICBM(?)

Scratch
04-13-2008, 06:43 AM
Of course a FROG-7 and it's counterpart, the PAC-3, are on the low end of BMD, wich itself is spread over some categories. Intercepting an ICBM is a totally different story. But I thought it could all be covered by one thread. And I think theater BMD is currently more important and closer to reality than ICBMD.

It also seems that Patriots were ripple fired against those TBMs, wich is quiet the way Patriot was designed to operate. There just shouldn't be the impression they intercepted the TBMs on a 1-1 basis.
I also found another report stating a missile struck the port of Kuwait city.

And, as I understood some reports, during OIF Patriot batteries accompanied the maneuver forces all the way to Baghdad to provide divisional level AD. Bringing a whole new level of mobility to the AD units.

http://www.ausa.org/webpub/DeptArmyMagazine.nsf/byid/CCRN-6CCSBH
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/ops/oif-patriot.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3723/is_200401/ai_n9369284/pg_1

Finn McCool
04-13-2008, 03:10 PM
I also found another report stating a missile struck the port of Kuwait city.

And, as I understood some reports, during OIF Patriot batteries accompanied the maneuver forces all the way to Baghdad to provide divisional level AD. Bringing a whole new level of mobility to the AD units.


True. A missle did hit Kuwait City. It landed right on the waterfront. No casualties. I think the fact that it landed on the waterfront means that the failure to intercept was caused by human error: The operators of the PAC batteries thought that the missle was going to fall into the sea when in fact it landed just on the shoreline.

I didn't know that Patriot batteries accompanied the ground forces. I guess that means that the hit on the 3rd Division HQ counts as a defeat for the Patriot then.

None of this is good news for Taiwan, because it means they will probably have to fire multiple missles to take out incoming PLA BMs.