US to sell Taiwan 421 million US dollars worth of missiles

[adeptitus]

Saw this on yahoo today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070301/wl_asia_afp/taiwanusmilitary

US to sell Taiwan 421 million US dollars worth of missiles

30 minutes ago

TAIPEI (AFP) - The US

Department of Defense has notified Congress that it plans to sell Taiwan missiles worth 421 million US dollars, which would help boost the island's defenses against rival China.


The proposed sale will include 218 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air missiles (AMRAAM), 235 Maverick missiles, as well as spare parts and maintenance equipment, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a statement.

"The proposed sale will help improve the security of the recipient and assist in maintaining political stability, military balance, and economic progress in the region," the agency said.

Acquisition of AMRAAM and Maverick missiles, a move sure to irk Beijing, will help Taiwan "modernize its armed forces and enhance its defence ability to counter air and ground threats," it said.

The missiles will be used to arm Taiwan's F-16 fleet, the backbone of its air force.

Taiwan for the first time in 2000 purchased from the United States 120 AIM-120s, which have a range of 50 kilometres (31 miles) and are equipped with advanced guidance systems.

But delivery of the weaponry was delayed to 2003 after China acquired weaponry of similar capabilities -- Russian-made AA-12 missiles.

China has repeatedly protested to the US over its policy of selling weapons to Taiwan, which Beijing considers part of its territory to be reunified by force if necessary.

The United States is committed to providing Taiwan with defensive weaponry in accordance with the Taiwan Relations Act despite its switching of political recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979.

=============

From ROCAF military point of view, they really need these AMRRAMs. But I think the price ($421 million) is way too high for this batch? Internet sources quote AIM-120's at $300,000 to $386,000 USD each, and the AGM-65 at "up to" $160,000 USD each. How much could support/maintenance equipment and training cost on top??

[The_Zergling]

Unless there's something that wasn't mentioned in the deal, Taiwan got ripped off for the missiles, like they always do.

That said, the missiles are key to preserving Taiwan's ability to defend itself against a Chinese invasion, we've been long complaining about the stupidity of having more F-16s than AMRAAMs. Still, that's only about 300 missiles, enough for 2 on each aircraft. That's a pretty uncomfortable margin to work with should conflict arise. The fact that the missiles are C-7 is a definite improvement, though.

The increased batch of Mavericks is interesting as well - I would have expected/preferred a purchase of Harpoons if the goal was to stop a Chinese sea invasion, Mavericks are best at busting tanks... which perhaps says something about Taiwan's defense goals.

From the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency; issued Feb. 28, 2007...

The Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States has requested a possible sale of 218 AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs), AMRAAM Missiles - Instrumented, AMRAAM Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs), 48 LAU-129A Launchers, 235 AGM-65G2 Maverick Missiles, 4 TGM-65G Maverick Training Missiles, aircraft modification and integration, spares and repair parts, support and test equipment, maintenance and pilot training, software support, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance, and other related elements of logistics and program support.

So in addition the deal provides "Captive Air Training Missiles". I have no idea what that means, could anyone elaborate?

LAU129 rockets, Maverick training missiles, aircraft modification (ROCAF's F-16s may be incompatible with new AIM-120C-7 software?)... I'm curious to see what logistics and program support means.

Price aside, this is probably one of the better purchases the ROCAF could make at this time.

[FuManChu]

Unless there's something that wasn't mentioned in the deal, Taiwan got ripped off for the missiles, like they always do.

Apparently there are several dozen launchers and all the related equipment in there too. But Taiwan always pays more so it's hardly a surprise.

Still, that's only about 300 missiles, enough for 2 on each aircraft. That's a pretty uncomfortable margin to work with should conflict arise.

338.

I think this shows Taiwan is looking for batch orders to stop them becoming obsolete at the same time. I think it has a few years to place orders like this - certainly until after the Olympics and maybe even the World Expo.

The increased batch of Mavericks is interesting as well - I would have expected/preferred a purchase of Harpoons if the goal was to stop a Chinese sea invasion, Mavericks are best at busting tanks... which perhaps says something about Taiwan's defense goals.

Of course Taiwan does plan to attack an invasion group as it approaches the island, but it may believe it needs extra airborne ground-support more than the ability to fire off extra Harpoons from the air. After all they've been investing in land-based launchers for the HF-III.

I'm sure the MND is placing orders according to their priorities.

As a side-note, does anyone know the price difference between Mavericks and Harpoons?

ROCAF's F-16s may be incompatible with new AIM-120C-7 software?

I've read elsewhere that the ROCAF will be fully able to use the new missiles.

[bd popeye]

Does anyone know the price differences between Mavericks and Harpoons?


Did you mean AMRAAM?? Harpoon? Do they still make them?

Global Security sez the cost is.

Maverick is $129,332 each.

AMRAAM is $386,000 each

Harpoon is $474,609 each.

I don't know how much spare parts, test equipment etc the ROC recieved in the deal but I do know that the retail:D cost of just the missiles is about $115 million USD...Humm:confused: I wonder if the US threw in a couple of F-15 & F-16's. Ripped offed? Oh hell yes.....

[The_Zergling]

338 missiles.

I think this shows Taiwan is looking for batch orders to stop them becoming obsolete at the same time. I think it has a few years to place orders like this - certainly until after the Olympics and maybe even the World Expo.


I used the estimate of 300 because doubtless some of the previous missiles have already been used for training and what not. Still, it's roughly 2 missiles an aircraft.

It makes sense for Taiwan to use batch orders and not buy say, 1000 at once because that would increase the chances of them becoming outdated, outliving their shelf life. Another order in 2008 would be wise, I suppose.

After taking a closer look at the figures... the price tag is absurdly high. One wonders about true US commitment to the island's self defense... (looking at Israel)

[FuManChu]

Global Security sez the cost is.

Maverick is $129,332 each.

AMRAAM is $386,000 each

Harpoon is $474,609 each.

Assuming those figures are right, that may be one reason why Mavericks were chosen - cheaper to get a large number than a smaller number of Harpoons.

After taking a closer look at the figures... the price tag is absurdly high. One wonders about true US commitment to the island's self defense... (looking at Israel)

But the US doesn't have China screaming every time it approves a sale/military aid to Israel - the Arabs are generally still reliant on US help themselves, so there's not that much opposition there. Plus the US is Taiwan's only arms supplier, so it can get away with charging more.

That said I have read about some other deals the US had where the missile packages approved seemed very high because of "optional extras" thrown in. Unless you have a full breakdown of the per item cost it's not sensible to read too much into these sort of things. Taiwan has to pay more for its weapons, and that's the way it just is.

[Finn McCool]

Well I would have to say this a good thing for the ROCAF. They have a severe shortage of missles,, at most of what they have is crappy Sidewinders with a range of what? 10 kilometers. They need AMRAAMs. OF course this would be absolutely useless if the agreement was on the earlier terms of keeping the missles in a warehouse in Hawaii to be delivered "on need". Like that's gonna happen.

[optionsss]

I have two question about ROC, I guess this is a good place to ask.
How good was the medium ranged A2A missile taiwan designed by itself, the Sky sword II?
Is it possible that they fit the missile on the F-16 or even the Mirage 2000? Seems that would be huge boost to the Taiwan's self-defence capability.

[crazyinsane105]

I have two question about ROC, I guess this is a good place to ask.
How good was the medium ranged A2A missile taiwan designed by itself, the Sky sword II?
Is it possible that they fit the missile on the F-16 or even the Mirage 2000? Seems that would be huge boost to the Taiwan's self-defence capability.

Hmm....if the Sky Sword II was good, a better question is why is Taiwan wanting to buy AAM from the Americans (at a jacked up price) whent they could make their own?

[optionsss]

The TC-2's seeker head is based on Motorola-Raytheon design, initially a competitor to the AIM-120 contract, which was later won by Hughes. CSIST is reported to have purchased 200 TC-2 seeker head "kits" from Raytheon. This lead to speculation that the ROCAF would have no more than 200 TC-2's in its inventory.

On March 17, 2004, Jane's Defense Weekly reported that CSIST had produced an air-launched anti-radiation (ARM) missile, named Tien Chien IIA (TC-2A). The TC-2A is reported to have a new seeker head and guidance package, possibly with dual-mode pasive RF and IR sensors, and an improved extended-range rocket motor. The updated missile, with its new seeker head, indicates that CSIST's TC-2/TC-2A production is not limited to the original Raytheon order.


This is an article from the wikipedia. There was some additional information on the Chinese wiki. That basically stated the missile was handed over the military for testing purpose in 1994, and it took 2 years for the airfore to accept it. And they publicly announced the missile enter full production on 1997.

[Pointblank]

Hmm....if the Sky Sword II was good, a better question is why is Taiwan wanting to buy AAM from the Americans (at a jacked up price) whent they could make their own?

It appears to me that Taiwan is trying to buy as many weapons as it can get its hands on. Some of the parts for indigenous missiles are subject to American arms control, and as such, Taiwan has difficulty in sourcing the parts to produce the missiles, and supplements what it can make with what it can buy.

[tphuang]

That said, the missiles are key to preserving Taiwan's ability to defend itself against a Chinese invasion, we've been long complaining about the stupidity of having more F-16s than AMRAAMs. Still, that's only about 300 missiles, enough for 2 on each aircraft. That's a pretty uncomfortable margin to work with should conflict arise. The fact that the missiles are C-7 is a definite improvement, though.


LAU129 rockets, Maverick training missiles, aircraft modification (ROCAF's F-16s may be incompatible with new AIM-120C-7 software?)... I'm curious to see what logistics and program support means.


Did I miss something or where did it say that ROCAF got C7? From PAF's recent deal, I think C5 is most likely. Not that it isn't a great missile, since it will still be better than PL-12 and much better than export R-77.

I'm not sure whether they are all AIM120C compatible. I know that they did test fire with AIM-120C5 last year and Bryan C on CDF mentionned before that not all of the F-16s got the software ugprade.

[Jeff Head]

aircraft modification and integration, spares and repair parts, support and test equipment, maintenance and pilot training, software support, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance, and other related elements of logistics and program support.Sounds like the US is making a commitment, by contract, to support these systems for some time. Depending on how long, a lot of dollars can get eaten up annually for these types of services...the spare parts, information, training, software and particularly the man-hours and travel necessary from the US to do it.

[Vlad Plasmius]

Now we just have to see if they can somehow manage to get that $14 billion purchase out. Though, I can't help but wonder when Taiwan will get these weapons.

[The_Zergling]

Did I miss something or where did it say that ROCAF got C7? From PAF's recent deal, I think C5 is most likely. Not that it isn't a great missile, since it will still be better than PL-12 and much better than export R-77.

I'm not sure whether they are all AIM120C compatible. I know that they did test fire with AIM-120C5 last year and Bryan C on CDF mentionned before that not all of the F-16s got the software ugprade.

Several of the articles I read noted the C-7, which surprised me at first as well.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2007-02-28T210558Z_01_N28220335_RTRIDST_0_TAIWAN-RAYTHEON-MISSILES-UPDATE-1.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna

Here's one of them. The other was from "(Source: US Defense Security Cooperation Agency; issued Feb. 28, 2007)" which I couldn't find the original link for. A link posted by Bryan C on Taiwanmilitary.org confirmed it, and I'd say he's pretty reliable regarding Taiwan military purchases.

I don't expect the larger arms deal to pass, at least not in its entirety. A safe prediction would probably be a limited package of P-3s along with the additional Patriot missiles and batteries, excluding the submarines.

[tphuang]

Several of the articles I read noted the C-7, which surprised me at first as well.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2007-02-28T210558Z_01_N28220335_RTRIDST_0_TAIWAN-RAYTHEON-MISSILES-UPDATE-1.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna

Here's one of them. The other was from "(Source: US Defense Security Cooperation Agency; issued Feb. 28, 2007)" which I couldn't find the original link for. A link posted by Bryan C on Taiwanmilitary.org confirmed it, and I'd say he's pretty reliable regarding Taiwan military purchases.

I don't expect the larger arms deal to pass, at least not in its entirety. A safe prediction would probably be a limited package of P-3s along with the additional Patriot missiles and batteries, excluding the submarines.

quite interesting, C-7 is another step up over C-5. In fact, I don't think any air force other than USAF currently equips C-7. I read RAAF just received the C-5. Definitely a great deal for the F-16s. It could signal that the F-16 deal rejected by Bush is going to come around soon. Maybe Taiwan will finally get off its butt and sign the deal that US was hoping for.

[crobato]

I have two question about ROC, I guess this is a good place to ask.
How good was the medium ranged A2A missile taiwan designed by itself, the Sky sword II?
Is it possible that they fit the missile on the F-16 or even the Mirage 2000? Seems that would be huge boost to the Taiwan's self-defence capability.

No idea how good it is, but it cannot be used on the Mirage or the F-16. Why would they allow it? Gives the French or the US opportunity to rip you off by selling you the missiles.

The Skysword II only works on the IDF fighter.

[Clouded Leopard]

Hmm....if the Sky Sword II was good, a better question is why is Taiwan wanting to buy AAM from the Americans (at a jacked up price) whent they could make their own?


Sky Sword (Tien Kung) only works on Taiwan's IDFs. They can't be used on the F-16s because they're not software compatible, and the US won't release the source codes needed to integrated F-16 with Tien Kung.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html


"The AIM-120C-7 (P3I Phase 3), development of which has begun in 1998, incorporates improved ECCM with jamming detection, an upgraded seeker, and longer range. The latter feature was specifically requested by the U.S. Navy to get a (somewhat) suitable replacement for the AIM-54 Phoenix very-long range missile, which was then planned to be retired together with the F-14D Tomcat around 2007 (actual official retirement was already in September 2004). The AIM-120C-7 was successfully tested against combat-realistic targets in August and September 2003, and IOC was then planned for 2004. This has slipped somewhat, but as of early 2006, the AIM-120C-7 is beginning to be fielded."


I don't expect the larger arms deal to pass, at least not in its entirety. A safe prediction would probably be a limited package of P-3s along with the additional Patriot missiles and batteries, excluding the submarines.


The P-3Cs will probably pass. There might also be the upgrade of the PAC-2+ batteries to PAC-3.


Whether or not the remaining 6 PAC-3s and the submarines pass, we'll have to cross our fingers and hope...

[Jeff Head]

The latter feature was specifically requested by the U.S. Navy to get a (somewhat) suitable replacement for the AIM-54 Phoenix very-long range missile, which was then planned to be retired together with the F-14D Tomcat around 2007 (actual official retirement was already in September 2004).[/I]The AIM-120D AMRAAM is going to be one awesome missile...and its about time they got back to something near the range of the Phoenix (AIM-54)...though the AIM-120D sounds like a more lethal shot, particualrly against more manueverable attackers.

[ofone]

Mainland will get the weapons which is sold to taiwan,because China will be united peacefully one day

[FuManChu]

Mainland will get the weapons which is sold to taiwan,because China will be united peacefully one day

You're living in cloud-cookoo land if you think the Taiwanese would hand their weapons over. If they did, it would mean they could never, ever buy weapons from the US again. Given retaining a military capability is a top priority for any government (and the US is virtually their only supplier), that would be suicide.

[dannytoro]

......I hear hear this is the next thing we are selling Taiwan, you better surrender to them now:lol

http://www.spaceline.org/rocketsum/images/012b.jpg

[dannytoro]

....Actually this is one of America's great wastes of defence expenditures. Capable of delivering a 6400 pound warhead across continents at a leisurely cruising speed of Mach 3.25...

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/n/n570322a.jpg

[Clouded Leopard]

......I hear hear this is the next thing we are selling Taiwan, you better surrender to them now:lol

http://www.spaceline.org/rocketsum/images/012b.jpg



What for, when Taiwan is already building its own modified Tien Kung ballistic missiles and Hsiung Jeng cruise missiles?

[The_Zergling]

What for, when Taiwan is already building its own modified Tien Kung ballistic missiles and Hsiung Jeng cruise missiles?

It's called satire. Notice the "lol" at the end of the sentence. Obviously even if Taiwan were to buy that missile it would not make a difference in a war.

[dannytoro]

...Yes indeed, it was for satire, although I'm a bit disappointed so many military students did not identify Navaho. From a technical standpoint, even today it would be a tough target to take out, and the W-39 4 Megaton warhead could sure ruin a good party.....

[ofone]

You're living in cloud-cookoo land if you think the Taiwanese would hand their weapons over. If they did, it would mean they could never, ever buy weapons from the US again. Given retaining a military capability is a top priority for any government (and the US is virtually their only supplier), that would be suicide.

I believe that China can be unified peacfully in one or twe decades.

[FuManChu]

I believe that China can be unified peacfully in one or twe decades.

Anything is possible. But China would not be "gifted" any of Taiwan's weapons for inspection - Taiwan would keep them for itself.

[Clouded Leopard]

I believe that China can be unified peacfully in one or twe decades.


1 decade? Doubtful? 2 decades? Maybe possible. I'd be surprised to see it happen before 2030.

[Finn McCool]

...Yes indeed, it was for satire, although I'm a bit disappointed so many military students did not identify Navaho. From a technical standpoint, even today it would be a tough target to take out, and the W-39 4 Megaton warhead could sure ruin a good party.....

I was more thinking Nike missle. That thing was smaller though. But it was still a big waste.