China and Iran bought retired F-14 spare part

[ahho]

Well from the yahoo news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070130/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_surplus_stings

It seems that the Iranian bought spare parts from the US for their F-14, but it also mention that China also have bought F-14 spare parts. The question is why would China buy these parts. Are they interested in the F-14 or some sensitive eqequipment that got sold??

Any clue what these spare parts would help China in the fighter industry??

[Vlad Plasmius]

I don't think it ever explicitly states China was acquiring F-14 parts, but my only thoughts as to why would be the following:

1. Study the wing structure and design.

2. To assist in developing a carrier-borne aircraft.

3. To research Iranian capabilities.

The first two may be obvious, but the third I think has some potential too. Iran has threatened to cut off the Straits of Hormuz after all. China may be worried about having to secure its Middle East, Central Asian, and South Asian interests against Iran.

[Jeff Head]

Well from the yahoo news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070130/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_surplus_stings

It seems that the Iranian bought spare parts from the US for their F-14, but it also mention that China also have bought F-14 spare parts. The question is why would China buy these parts. Are they interested in the F-14 or some sensitive eqequipment that got sold??

Any clue what these spare parts would help China in the fighter industry??
The article indicates that the "unique" F-14 parts were being destroyed and that most of these parts were considered "nuts & bolts" parts that could be used on general aircraft. That would be a very important distinction in the sales and what they are good for.

In addition, I do not believe the Iranians did or could buy the parts directly from the U.S. They would have gotten them from a third party who bought the parts from the U.S. for general use.

[ahho]

hmm in defence news that was posted today did not mention anything about china.
I guess yahoo news such as AP and Reuter news are getting unrealiable and bias. They kept posting a story about some group in Ottawa saying chinese government are harvesting fa lun gong while canadian government denied that claim.

Maybe next time i should wait for defence news get posted:mad:

By the way if all the sensative part get destroyed is there any point of getting spareparts for Iran???? I mean i thought they already know how to maintain it

[bd popeye]

Personally I doubt if Iran or any nation recieved any "sentisive" parts.

This may just be a ploy by a Democratic congressmen to make the Democrats appear to be "tough on terror" Or "tough on Iran"..That's all, nothing more nothing less...

[adeptitus]

If the PRC really wanted to have a look at a F-14 today, I think they could've easily done so by sending a team to visit the Iranian AF.

I recall reading a report many years ago that the PLA, in late 1970s to early 1980s, was very concerned about facing off against a powerful Soviet military with better aircraft and armor. They had 4 items on top of their acquisition list, one was F-14 design/parts/diagram, another was western torpedo -- the PLAN torpedos were hopelessly outdated at the time, and 2 others that I can't remember exact details, but do recall one has something to do with armor/tank technology.

The US would eventually provide the torpedo via clandestine operation, as the PLAN supposedly "salvaged' one from the South China Sea. The US also offered to upgrade PLA T-55's and PLAAF's aircraft, but those plans were scrapped by 1989-1990.

[crazyinsane105]

I don't think it's too far of a possibilty of Iran illegaly buying F-14 parts from the black market. The US has a massive inventory of F-14's dating back from the Shah of Iran. A lot of these F-14's are simply sitting in fields and what not for years now. There was a picture on PDF showing what was nearly two hundred aircraft (all of them either B-52's or F-14's) simply sitting there, out of service. I am not sure how often these facilities are checked, but I do know that the US military doesn't have the best inventory controls (a number of TOW's built in 2001 were found in the hands of Hezbullah last summer along for example). So in my opinion, it shouldn't be too hard for Iran to acquire these parts. I mean, they're still somehow flying them....

[bd popeye]

I don't think it's too far of a possibilty of Iran illegaly buying F-14 parts from the black market. The US has a massive inventory of F-14's dating back from the Shah of Iran. A lot of these F-14's are simply sitting in fields and what not for years now. There was a picture on PDF showing what was nearly two hundred aircraft (all of them either B-52's or F-14's) simply sitting there, out of service. I am not sure how often these facilities are checked, but I do know that the US military doesn't have the best inventory controls (a number of TOW's built in 2001 were found in the hands of Hezbullah last summer along for example). So in my opinion, it shouldn't be too hard for Iran to acquire these parts. I mean, they're still somehow flying them....

You probally saw pictures of the aircraft boneyard at Davis-Mothan AFB in Tuscon AZ

http://www.sarimage.com/Aviation/DavisMonthan/

Hezzbullah may have recieved to TOW's from the Taliban who probally got them from the CIA.

Security on US military bases is tighter now than it has ever been. Are there thefts and slips in security? Sure. It may not be s bad as you think it is.

As a person that delt with weapons and munitions for 11 of my 20 years I can tell you I never "lost" anything nor did anyone I know or anyone I trained or worked for me...But that's just me.

[crazyinsane105]

You probally saw pictures of the aircraft boneyard at Davis-Mothan AFB in Tuscon AZ

http://www.sarimage.com/Aviation/DavisMonthan/

Hezzbullah may have recieved to TOW's from the Taliban who probally got them from the CIA.

Security on US military bases is tighter now than it has ever been. Are there thefts and slips in security? Sure. It may not be s bad as you think it is.

As a person that delt with weapons and munitions for 11 of my 20 years I can tell you I never "lost" anything nor did anyone I know or anyone I trained or worked for me...But that's just me.


The CIA gave Hezbullah TOW missiles? Maybe, but these missiles were manufactured back in 2001, the year September 11 happened. Plus Hezbullah and the Taliban weren't at all friendly towards each other, the Taliban was Iran's number two enemy (number one being Saddam and the Iraqi Baathists). But interesting that you worked in those facilties. Gives me a good amount of releif to know that security in those places aren't too bad.

[bd popeye]

The CIA gave Hezbullah TOW missiles? Maybe, but these missiles were manufactured back in 2001, the year September 11 happened. Plus Hezbullah and the Taliban weren't at all friendly towards each other, the Taliban was Iran's number two enemy (number one being Saddam and the Iraqi Baathists). But interesting that you worked in those facilties. Gives me a good amount of releif to know that security in those places aren't too bad.

Oh boy..I did not know those missiles were made in 2001. That would be a bad thing!..I was thinking about back in the late 70's & early 80's..

As for my service as an Avation Ordanceman in the USN. That was my job to handle munitions and weapons. We were held very accounatble.

[adeptitus]

For a brief period after fall of Soviet Union, the US Gov DRMO sales of salvage/scrapped military parts was kind of loose and some civilians were actually able to purchase used AH-1 cobra's chopped in half. A few people managed to put them back together into flyable condition. I recall seeing some web sites about it years ago, but they've mostly gone under.

Under today's environment, I think the US Government is prolly much stricter in its military surplus/salvage sales. I'd also suggest staying far away from that business today, because if anything goes missing or end up in the wrong hands, you'd be considered guilty until proven innocent.

[Finn McCool]

You all seem to be forgetting the arms for hostages deals in the 80s. The Iranians had access to spare parts for the F-14 from the source. I think that they got some (the planes are still in the air) and its possible that the Chinese have some now.

[Pointblank]

You all seem to be forgetting the arms for hostages deals in the 80s. The Iranians had access to spare parts for the F-14 from the source. I think that they got some (the planes are still in the air) and its possible that the Chinese have some now.

The Iranians still have the ability to keep their F-5's flying, and produce modifications for them, which indicates they have the ability to at least reverse-engineer some parts for their aircraft. I don't think parts were transfered in large quantities sufficient to last till today during those arms for hostages deals, so it leads creditably to the widely suspected ability of the Iranians to be able to reverse engineer some parts. Iran today has the ability to reverse engineer and locally produce some helicopters, namely the AH-1 Cobra, the Bell 206, and the Bell UH-1 Huey.

[bd popeye]

I feel the Iranians have the ablity to manufature parts for much of their old US equipment.

I saw a recent video of F-4's flying with modern Iranian colors.

[eecsmaster]

The general consensus is that about 5 of the F-14s are still in flyable condition. If Iran has been able to get stuff it can't manufacture, it sure as hell didn't get a lot of them.

[crazyinsane105]

The general consensus is that about 5 of the F-14s are still in flyable condition. If Iran has been able to get stuff it can't manufacture, it sure as hell didn't get a lot of them.


No, I think there are around 20-30 F-14's flying around. Combat Aircraft magazine has stated that number. Also, this whole thing about selling F-14 spare parts...which countries besides Iran and the US even used F-14's? So a better question would be why was the US even selling spare parts of F-14's to other nations even though there are only two (now one) users of F-14's?

[Pointblank]

No, I think there are around 20-30 F-14's flying around. Combat Aircraft magazine has stated that number. Also, this whole thing about selling F-14 spare parts...which countries besides Iran and the US even used F-14's? So a better question would be why was the US even selling spare parts of F-14's to other nations even though there are only two (now one) users of F-14's?

Some of the parts may be dual use equipment, and fall under that purview.

[Finn McCool]

No, I think there are around 20-30 F-14's flying around. Combat Aircraft magazine has stated that number. Also, this whole thing about selling F-14 spare parts...which countries besides Iran and the US even used F-14's? So a better question would be why was the US even selling spare parts of F-14's to other nations even though there are only two (now one) users of F-14's?

Foreign air forces always want to get a look at each other's technology. I can imagine that the PLAAF would be very interested in the F-14s radar, any Phoniex missles it could get its hands on and perhaps the swing-wing technology as well. I don't think that the Iranian F-14s have folding wings but the PLAN would want to see that for aircraft carrier purposes.

[bd popeye]

I don't think that the Iranian F-14s have folding wings but the PLAN would want to see that for aircraft carrier purposes.

Finn, All Tomcats had the swept wing design.

http://www.iiaf.net/aircraft/jetfighters/F14/f14.html

I don't think a F-14 could generate enough lift to fly without it's wings extended. A Tomcat is a very heavy aircraft.

[Pointblank]

Foreign air forces always want to get a look at each other's technology. I can imagine that the PLAAF would be very interested in the F-14s radar, any Phoniex missles it could get its hands on and perhaps the swing-wing technology as well. I don't think that the Iranian F-14s have folding wings but the PLAN would want to see that for aircraft carrier purposes.

The PLA can get a virtual copy in terms of capabilities of the Phoenix missile by acquiring the Vympel R-33 (AA-9 Amos) missile or the Vympel R-37 (AA-X-13 Arrow) missile. The Iranian F-14's radar is fairly dated, so it won't do much for the Chinese to look at the old AN/AWG-9 radar, but instead, look at the Zaslon-M radar that is fitted on the MiG-31 instead.

[Finn McCool]

Finn, All Tomcats had the swept wing design.

http://www.iiaf.net/aircraft/jetfighters/F14/f14.html

I don't think a F-14 could generate enough lift to fly without it's wings extended. A Tomcat is a very heavy aircraft.

I meant wings that fold up so the plane can fit on a carrier. Would the IAF have those? Its possible, but I doubt it.

[Pointblank]

I meant wings that fold up so the plane can fit on a carrier. Would the IAF have those? Its possible, but I doubt it.

The Iranian F-14's as delivered were virtually identical to the USN F-14A's. When the Iranian Revolution occurred,the last F-14 that was to be delivered to Iran was embargoed, and was instead delivered to the USN.

[Scratch]

As far as I know, F-14s don't have foldable wings at all, they are just swept back to maximum (or minimum) abord the carrier.

[bd popeye]

Seems the US is till concerned about old Tomcat parts falling into the "wrong hands" . The just sezied four retired Tomcats from a TV production company and musuems. The US says they were not demilitarized.

Feds seize retired F-14s seized from SoCal museums, TV company

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20070306-2121-ca-fighterjetsseized.html

By Daisy Nguyen
ASSOCIATED PRESS

9:21 p.m. March 6, 2007

LOS ANGELES – Federal agents on Tuesday seized four retired F-14 fighter jets that authorities said were improperly transferred from the Navy to two air museums and the company that produced the TV show “JAG.”
The Tomcats were not properly demilitarized before being transferred to private parties, according to a statement issued by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which worked with the Defense Criminal Investigative Service and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service in a 17-month investigation.

Under the rigorous demilitarization process, navigation, radar and other sensitive equipment are disabled so they can no longer perform military functions, said Cmdr. Dave Werner, a U.S. Navy spokesman.

“In this case, it seems (the jets) didn't formally undergo the process,” Werner said.

Two of the jets were at the Yanks Air Museum in Chino, Calif., another was at the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, and the fourth, which was acquired by Paramount Pictures, then resold to a scraps dealer, had been stored at a facility operated by Southern California Aviation at the Southern California Logistics Airport in Victorville, Calif.

None of the jets were currently flyable, but one in Chino still has its engines and was at least superficially in very good condition, said ICE spokeswoman Virginia Kice. The other three do not have engines but were otherwise essentially whole, she said.
There was no indication any of the hardware fell into the wrong hands “but it does present a vulnerability,” Kice said.

After-hours calls to curators at the Yanks Air and Planes of Fame museums were not immediately returned Tuesday. Efforts to reach Mark Thomson, the scrap dealer who bought the F-14 from the producer of “JAG,” were unsuccessful.

The Navy added F-14s to the fleet in 1972 and retired the last of them in 2006.

Iran, which acquired F-14s in the 1970s when it was an ally of the United States, is the only country trying to keep the jets in the air.

With little ability to produce parts on its own, Iran is aggressively pursuing several avenues to obtain U.S. spares, including contacting American aerospace supply companies or using U.S-based “front companies” to broker deals, according to an affidavit filed in support of the F-14 seizures.

“The aircraft, therefore, present an extreme safety hazard to the public, with potential liability on the part of the United States Department of Navy,” ICE special agent Joshua Barnett wrote in the affidavit.

The four seized jets were retired from active service at the Naval Air Station at Point Mugu, Calif. in the late 1990s. A former Naval Chief Warrant Officer told investigators he sold the F-14s to a scrap dealer without verifying they were properly demilitarized and expected the fighter jets to be destroyed, the affidavit said.

“The same thing that makes these planes a source of interest for aircraft enthusiasts, their relatively pristine condition, also makes them desirable for those with less innocent motives,” Robert Schoch, special agent in charge for the ICE office of investigations in Los Angeles, said in a statement.

“The strict regulations governing the transfer of military aircraft are designed to reduce the likelihood that sensitive equipment and technology might fall into the hands of individuals or countries seeking to do us or our allies harm,” Schoch said.

The jets will be partially dismantled and taken to the military's Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center in Tucson, Ariz., for storage and final demilitarization.

[adeptitus]

I found this article on LA Times today. Geez someone sold them for few thousand bucks and it was re-sold to private museum for $50,000? That's a hefy profit margain. Also the article specified that the tomcat should NOT have been sold to scrap metal company. I think they really want these aircraft destroyed completely.

==========================
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jets7mar07,0,5971777.story?coll=la-home-headlines

4 F-14s seized at Southland airports
The fighter jets were not properly demilitarized and their sale was improper, officials say.

By Maeve Reston and Garrett Therolf
Times Staff Writers

March 7, 2007

Federal agents seized four F-14 Tomcat fighters in San Bernardino County on Tuesday — three from airplane museums — after investigators determined that the jets were not demilitarized and were improperly sold or transferred to private companies, including the producer of the TV show "JAG," authorities said.

When the jets were retired in the mid-1990s at the Naval Air Station at Point Mugu, Navy officials failed to ensure that the aircraft were stripped of military hardware, according to a court affidavit filed by a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent.

Three of the fighter jets then were sold, in "unauthorized deals," to an Oxnard scrap company for $4,000 or less apiece, and one was acquired as a prop for the military drama "JAG," according to the affidavit and federal officials.

The proceeds from the sales went to a Morale Welfare and Recreation Fund for a squadron at the Ventura County naval base, according to the federal affidavit, filed by ICE Special Agent Joshua Barnett.

On Tuesday, customs agents and officials with the Defense Criminal Investigative Service seized two of the fighters from the Yanks Air Museum and one from the Planes of Fame air museum, both at the Chino Airport. Investigators learned about the F-14s during an undercover sting operation when they were investigating the potential sale of jet fighter parts to Iran, according to the affidavit.

A fourth jet, originally acquired by the producers of "JAG," was seized from an airport in Victorville, where it was housed. The plane is owned by an El Mirage aviation company.

"The investigation has not uncovered any evidence that these planes have been plundered for parts by people with nefarious motives," said Virginia Kice, a spokeswoman for ICE, "but the fact that they were not properly demilitarized certainly presents a potential vulnerability."

Federal officials fear that parts from any decommissioned F-14 could find their way onto the worldwide black market, Barnett stated in his affidavit, adding that "Iran is the only nation to still have the F-14 in its active fleet."

Thom Mrozek, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles, said no one had been charged but said the investigation was continuing. "There are some issues related to statute of limitations, and we're examining those issues."

Defense Department officials have determined that the F-14s should have been destroyed by an authorized contractor when they were taken out of military service between 1996 and 1998, according to the affidavit.

Instead, the officer in charge of demilitarizing the planes "improperly and without authority" released three of them to an Oxnard company, California Public Recycling, for disposal as scrap metal, even though the parts that made up the fighter jet were specifically barred from release to scrap metal recycling programs, the federal court document alleged.

Marc Keenberg, a consultant to California Public Recycling, confirmed that the company received several military airplanes at that time but described them as "already in scrap condition."

Keenberg said the recycling company sold the planes to another scrap yard and lost track of them after that.

The producer of "JAG," said his company went through proper military channels when it acquired the retired F-14.

"They didn't sell us one. They gave us one, and they removed the engines," said Don Bellisario, whose company now produces the military drama "NCIS." "The Navy said to us, 'We can give you an old aircraft, but we have to demil [demilitarize] it before we can give it to you.' I just assumed that's what happened."

The Navy also "broke its back," meaning that the F-14's fuselage was sliced in half and then welded back together, Bellisario said. Unable to fly, the jet was used as a prop for shots on the ground and had to be towed around, he said.

That plane in 2005 was sold to the company Aviation Warehouse in El Mirage, which was storing the F-14 at Southern California Logistics Airport in Victorville.

Mark Thomson, president of Aviation Warehouse, said the company also bought the other three F-14s for $5,000 apiece from a middleman, who was facilitating the sale for California Public Recycling in Oxnard. They later were sold to the Yanks airplane museum in Chino for $50,000 apiece, Thompson said.

Thomson, 65 of Adelanto, said he was outraged by the seizure of the planes and plans to fight the government's actions.

"When I bought the planes, everything was 100% totally legal and aboveboard," said Thomson, whose company provides props for movie television productions.

During the 17-month investigation, former Navy Chief Warrant Officer Mark Holmes told authorities that his Point Mugu unit — known as VX-9 Detachment — handled the sale of fighter jets. He said one of his superiors instructed him to contact scrap dealers to see if they were interested in "picking up F-14s for scrap," according to the court affidavit.

Holmes said the officer in charge set the price for the aircraft between $2,000 and $4,000. The checks for the planes were placed into a fund identified as the VX-9 Morale Welfare and Recreation fund, the affidavit stated.

There was no documentation of the sales or papers showing that the planes had been demilitarized, federal officials said.

Navy officials said referred all questions to the U.S. attorney's office and said they were cooperating with the investigation.

Federal officials are dismantling the planes and will ship them to a military yard in Tucson for storage and "final demilitarization."

[bd popeye]

The US congress has moved again to squash any more sale of Tomcat spare parts...


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20070611-1336-militarysurplus-iran.html

By Sharon Theimer
ASSOCIATED PRESS

1:36 p.m. June 11, 2007

WASHINGTON – The House drew attention Monday to the danger posed by shortcomings in U.S. military surplus sales, voting a second time to ban the Pentagon from selling leftover F-14 fighter jet parts sought by Iran.
The House first approved the proposal last month as an add-on to military funding legislation. It backed it again Monday on a voice vote, this time as a freestanding bill.

The measure, nicknamed the “Stop Arming Iran Act,” would be politically difficult for President Bush to veto. He has called Iran part of an “axis of evil” and accuses it of funding terrorism and trying to develop nuclear weapons.
The White House had no immediate comment on whether Bush supports the proposed ban, which is expected to win Senate approval. The new House vote came as Iran abruptly called off talks on its nuclear program with the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., and Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., proposed the legislation after The Associated Press reported in January that buyers for Iran, China and other countries exploited weaknesses in Pentagon surplus sale security to acquire sensitive military gear including parts for F-14s, other aircraft and missiles.

In at least one instance, surplus sold through a Defense Department auction made it to Iran, law enforcement officials say.

Giffords, citing the AP story in remarks to the House, said her bill would “put an end to military surplus sales that may inadvertently be helping to sustain Iran's air force.”

“We cannot take the risk that parts unique to the F-14 could be made available to Iran,” Giffords said.

Republican Rep. John Boozman of Arkansas called the bill “an appropriate and timely measure” that would add another layer of protection to try to stop Iran from obtaining U.S. military gear.

The Defense Department announced after the AP story ran that it would voluntarily halt the sale of Tomcat parts and review whether any could be sold as surplus without posing a national security risk. While it had already intended to destroy components unique to the F-14s, it had initially planned to sell thousands of Tomcat parts that could be used on multiple types of aircraft.

Iran – given permission by the United States to buy F-14s back in the 1970s when the two countries were allies – is the only country known to be trying to fly the jets. The United States retired its fleet last year.

The Defense Department has taken steps to toughen surplus sale security after Government Accountability Office investigators last year obtained more than $1 million in sensitive surplus items, including a rocket launcher, by posing as defense contractors. The Pentagon's efforts include trying harder to accurately identify surplus items before marking them as safe to sell.

Giffords and Wyden say a broad, permanent ban on the Pentagon's sale of the thousands of spare F-14 components is needed to make sure sensitive parts do not accidentally wind up in surplus sales, as has happened in the past.

The legislation would let only U.S. museums and similar historical groups buy retired Tomcats or Tomcat parts. The planes would have to be rendered useless for military purposes. The measure would also ban the issuing of export licenses for any F-14 parts