French Military News Thread

[DarkEminence]

As we probably all know, there are countless jokes about the French Military:

The MBT of the French Army has 7 gears. 6 are for reverse and one gear is to go forward in case the enemy gets behind them


All that aside, is there anything that you guys appreciate about the French?

Leclarc? Submarines?

Or, if you run out of things to appreciate, we can always hear your take on French jokes...

Don't get me wrong. I believe the French are a strong and resilient people. Unfortunately, the jokes seem to detract from that.

[Obi Wan Russell]

I respect the fact that the French still have a sense of national pride and are prepared to stick up for their own industries, defence related or otherwise, but beyond that I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them!

[Jeff Head]

All that aside, is there anything that you guys appreciate about the French?
The do operate a nuclear carrier with a very capable air wing. Despite severe birthing pains, that carrier is capable, credible, and will be all the more impresive when joined by the next French carrier.

They also have an impressive military design and manufacturing industry across the board.

Despite the jokes, I believe people respect the French military and its capabilities when it is deployed.

[Gollevainen]

Bashing french of their military performance in WWII is as tastless as bashing Poland or any other countries that were rolled over by Germans. At least french fought back unlike many others. The thing was that with outdated tactics and doctrines against the new and unheard Bliztkrieg, there really weren't anything to throw against it. Germans invaded hell lot of more land from the soviets than the size of france and only thing that stopped them was the unrealistic depth of the german plans to be able to conduct with mechanical force. But the general tactics used by the Germans were almoust unbeatable in the early days when germans had the change to determine where to fight and frankly if it would have been the british or americans or soviets in the place of french, they would have been beaten just the same.

So can we drop these childish country bashing jokes?

French military hardware is as good as anyone else making the same cathegory equipment. In fact it's quite remarkable how in certain areas France have managed to keep up the level of the two superpowers, USA and Russia/Soviet union. If you look simply the level of the technology and the wide slace of equipment made, france is definatly the number three in the whole world.

[BLUEJACKET]

The French should be given their due, even though they lost battles (like everyone else) in the past!
NATIONAL DEFENSE
(update, August 24, 2006)

Which overall strategy for its defense policy?

The 2006 French Defense Budget is $41.5 billion, not including pensions (an increase of 3.4% from 2005).

A total of 455,000 people are working for the French Defense Department. This number includes 356,000 military professionals and 96,000 civilian personnel, as an all-volunteer force. France has currently the largest all-volunteer military force on the European continent.

Army represents 38% (135,000 active military),

Navy,12% (43,000 active military),

Air Force , 18% (63,000 active military),

Gendarmerie (national police under military statute- 99,000 active military), 28%,

Other services (Armament Directorate, Health services, Fuel services - 16,000), 4%.

36,000 French troops are deployed overseas, including 13,000 participating in crisis management operations.
A significant number of French troops are deployed overseas. Basically, they serve two main purposes: pre-positioning requirements and crisis management operations. For this later course of action, French troops are participating in world stabilization mandated by UN resolutions as part of NATO, EU or coalitions. Those actions are currently taking place in Afghanistan, Africa, the Balkans and Lebanon. (See detailed information below.)
With numerous troops overseas, France is a strong US partner in advancing securitythroughout the world. As an example, the 7,600 French troops in theCaribbean area and Guyana play a major role in countering drug trafficking alongside the US Joint Inter Agency Task Force South. Another example is found with the 10,000 French forces, which are present in the Pacific region and the Southern Indian Ocean where they are controlling sea lanes, notably through the French contribution to Task Force 150.
With more than 1,900 troops, France is also a major US partner in Afghanistan where in particular French fighter aircraft are presently providing close air support to both the NATO International Security Assistance Force and the American-led Operation Enduring Freedom.

France is a major NATO player .

- First, NATO runs an ongoing transformation, and France fully participates in that process. France is a major proponent of enhancing NATO’s efficiency in the current strategic environment. To that effect, a flag officer and several other senior officers are posted at SACT (Norfolk, VA).

- Secondly, France has been from the beginning one of the major contributors to the NATO Response Force. A French general commanded the air component of NRF 5 which deployed recently to Pakistan. This month, a French general commanded the land component of NRF7 with the participation of the French-German Brigade, which conducted a major exercise for the NRF operational certification in Cape Verde.

- Third, with about 3,000 troops, France is the third largest member state contributor to NATO operations behind Germany and Italy.

- Finally, two French generals commanded in 2005 two major NATO forces, ISAF in Afghanistan and KFOR in Kosovo.

DETAILED INFORMATION
1 - About 36,000 French troops are deployed overseas, including 13,000 participating in peace-keeping operations:

Lebanon: Since mid-July 2006, France has maintained a naval task force off the coast of Lebanon (4 major ships), as well as 2 tactical transport aircraft and some 15 helicopters operating from Cyprus, to conduct non-combatant evacuation operations. To date, approximately 14,000 people, including 3,000 non-French citizens, have been evacuated by this force of roughly 1,700 French soldiers. Since the beginning of August, this force has also conducted several logistical missions in support of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), as well as helping diplomats and political authorities travel from Cyprus to Beirut. This force, responding to a French chain of command, will stay in the area as long as deemed necessary.
As for UNIFIL, which is presently headed by a French general, France has, to date, contributed 250 troops, and another 150 will be in Lebanon by the beginning of next week. On August 24, French President Chirac agreed to send 1,600 more French troops – for a total of 2,000 -- to bolster the UN contingent in Lebanon.

Afghanistan: with 1,900 French troops, France is one of the major partners of the United States in Afghanistan. French contributions include troops deployed to the International Security Assistance Force (13% of ISAF), training of the Afghan National Army, Operation Enduring Freedom on the ground (Special Forces), at sea (3 frigates and 1 Maritime Patrol Aircraft), and in the air (6 fighter aircraft, 1 tanker and 2 transport aircraft). Periodically, fighter aircraft are also deployed in the region, with an air tanker, to offer close air support to ISAF and OEF ground troops. Mirage 200D strike aircraft, and Mirage F1CR reconnaissance and bomber aircraft, are presently based in Tajikistan until autumn 2006, in order to support both the NATO Troops, who are gradually expanding the area of operations into southern Afghanistan, as well as US-led coalition forces, including French special forces, who have been hunting the Taliban and Al Qaida remnants since 2001.
Indian Ocean: CVN Charles de Gaulle carrier battle group had been again deployed in international waters off Pakistan, throughout the month of May 2006, in support of ISAF and OEF in neighboring Afghanistan. Referred to as Task Force 473, it includes six ships, including one British frigate, 24 Rafales, Super Etendards and Hawkeye aircraft, and some 3,000 Navy personnel.
As the second contributor to Operation Enduring Freedom, the French Navy is also deploying two frigates as part of Task Force 150, an international maritime force responsible for fighting terrorism in the northern Indian Ocean. It is made up of ten ships from eight countries, among them the United States, Great Britain, Pakistan, Germany and France. Its mission is to monitor the air and sea spaces within its zone of responsibility (Red Sea, Sea of Oman, Arabian Sea and the Persian Gulf) and to prevent terrorists’ exfiltration from Afghanistan to the Arabian Peninsula or the Horn of Africa. Its purpose is also to disrupt armament and illegal drug trafficking, as well as piracy. TF150 has also been entrusted with the protection of the oil production facilities since September 2004. TF 150 has been regularly commanded by French admirals.
France also contributes to TF57 with a maritime patrol aircraft and deploys one frigate within TF 318 under British command.

Ivory Coast: France has had for years a permanent military presence in Ivory Coast, under the terms of a defense agreement with that country. In the fall of 2002, under the terms of a United Nations resolution, France deployed around 4,000 troops to protect foreign civilians and prevent a civil war. After the deployment of a UN peace keeping force (ONUCI) and a new resolution of the UNSC, their current mission consists of protecting non-combatant foreigners and supporting UN forces in charge of monitoring the ceasefire and assisting the parties in undertaking DDR (Disarmament, Demobilization and Reintegration);
Kosovo : with 2,100 personnel, France is the third largest contributor to this NATO operation, after Germany and Italy;
Bosnia-Herzegovina : 400 French troops are deployed under the EU flag of mission Althea ;
Africa :1,300 troops in Chad and 200 in the Central AfricanRepublic contribute by their presence, at the invitation of both governments, to the stability of these countries and to the training of their armed forces for peace-keeping operations;
Darfur, Sudan: to address the humanitarian crisis, France mobilized military transport capabilities in Chad (airplanes, helicopters) for humanitarian relief operations. French aircraft ferried 700 tons of humanitarian aid at a cost of about $2.2 million. In addition, 200 French troops in Chad contributed to the stabilization of the Chad/Sudan border through patrols in Chad and along the border between the two countries. Furthermore, French F-1 Mirages, stationed with French troops in Chad, carry out frequent reconnaissance missions on the Chadian side of the Chad-Sudan border. Two French Army officers are part of the Abeche monitoring team, and two more French army officers are working with the African Union (AU) planning unit in Addis Ababa.
In July 2006, France sent 700 troops to the Democratic Republic of Congo as part of an E.U. military mission to help maintain peace during elections. These troops will spend 4 months in that country to support the 17,000 U.N. soldiers currently stationed there as peace-keepers. France heads the operations on site in Kinshasa, while the overall mission is under German command based in Postdam.
Other Multinational Peacekeeping Operations: 700 French military and police observers, staff or support personnel are deployed in Ivory Coast, Lebanon, Kosovo, Haiti, Western Sahara, the Sinai, Israel, Democratic Republic of Congo, Georgia, Liberia, the border between Eritrea and Ethiopia, Burundi, Bosnia Herzegovina, and the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia.
French military assistance for Hurricane Katrina relief in September 2005: As part of the French assistance, France’s Armed Forces sent troops and equipment for the relief of injured persons in connection with Hurricane Katrina. On September 6, 2005, two military aircraft Casa 235 (based in Martinique -French West Indies) landed in Little Rock, Arkansas, carrying a French Disaster Assistance Assessment Team, tents, tarps and MRE (meals ready to eat). On September 11, 2005, a C-135 from Istres AFB ferried to Pensacola a 17 EOD team (explosive ordnance divers) in order to contribute to the rehabilitation of port facilities, dock clearance and obstacle removals. Their mission lasted until September 26, 2005.
Earthquake in Pakistan October 8, 2005: the French Armed Forces participated in the rescue of the populations in Pakistan, with the deployment of a first aid medical center and surgical facilities, as well as the transport of UN humanitarian freight from Turkey. Less than 24 hours after the earthquake struck India and Pakistan in the Kashmir area, a C135 FR of the Strategic Air Forces ferried the French first aid to Islamabad airport: 25 persons from the state-financed civilian rescue organization, two teams of dog handlers and 14 cubic meters of equipment. On October 10, a surgical unit was deployed with 41 civilian emergency medicine personnel and 18 military doctors. On their return to France on November 11, most of their equipment was given away to Pakistani medical services.
France activated the air component of NRF5 (NATO Response Force 5), in compliance with the decision of the North Atlantic Council of October 11, 2005. Over 60 French troops were involved in the command and deployment of the air component in Taverny (France), Ramstein (Germany), Incirlick (Turkey), Lisbon (Portugal) and Islamabad (Pakistan). Two C 130 tactical aircraft have participated since October 21 in daily airlifts between Incirlik (Turkey) and Islamabad (Pakistan) to convey humanitarian freight gathered by the UN in Turkey. On November 3, the NRF air component deployed a GHF (Ground handling facilities) in Lahore (400km from Islamabad): this French Air Force and Army team was tasked with facilitating the ground transit of the aid convoyed by the NRF.
On October 19, 2005, in Bahrain, FS VAR, the flagship of the Commander, Task Force 150, transferred several tons of food supplies to the USS Cleveland (amphibious transport dock ship) for transport to Pakistan.

2 – Frequently, France has commanding officers in NATO operations.

France fully participates in the NATO transformationprocess by being one of the major contributors to the NATO Response Force. Furthermore, France contributes to all the Atlantic Alliance’s operations with a significant number of troops. Some 36,000 allied military personnel are presently deployed in the various NATO operations throughout the world.
With about 3,000 troops, France is the third largest Member State contributor to NATO operations behind Germany (5,400) and Italy. France recently commanded two NATO operations :
In February 2005, French Army Lieutenant General Py relinquished command of ISAF after having served a 6-month tour. Concurrently, the French-German brigade was in charge of the multinational brigade in Kabul.
In September 2005, French Army Major General de Kermabon, KFOR Commander, was relieved by an Italian General after one year of responsibilities.

3 - France is actively involved in Afghanistan.

In the wake of the 9/11 tragedy, France offered its military resources and capabilities to support the American-led military campaign, Operation Enduring Freedom, in Afghanistan. Immediately, the exchanges of information between our naval commanders increased, particularly in the Indian Ocean, thus intensifying the fight against all types of trafficking.
Since October 21, 2001, French reconnaissance aircraft and air tankers have contributed to the air campaign over Afghanistan. They were reinforced from the winter of 2001 to the summer of 2002 by French naval aviation forces and French Air Force transport planes and fighters. Indeed, France was the only country, along with the United States, to have flown bombing missions over Afghanistan in direct support of American ground troops, in particular during Operation Anaconda.
About 1,900 French troops are currently involved in the stabilization of Afghanistan, including the French Navy’s contribution to Operation Enduring Freedom:
1,200 French troops are deployed in that country as part of the International Security Assistance Force. France is also playing a significant role in training the Afghan national army, alongside the U.S. and the United Kingdom, having initially trained 3 Afghan battalions of 500 men each and being presently involved in the training of all Afghan officers. Additionally, 200 special troops are involved alongside American troops in the fight against the remnants of the Taliban regime in southern Afghanistan.
The French Navy continues to patrol the Gulf of Aden and the Gulf of Oman. It has been monitoring commercial sea lanes, detecting and boarding suspicious vessels, as well as escorting coalition boats through the area since December 2001. France is the second largest contributor to the maritime task force in charge of this mission.

4 - France is a major U.S. partner in advancing security throughout the world.

In the broader context of international security, France is working closely with the U.S. military to control proliferation and drug trafficking. The French Armed Forces in the Caribbean are closely coordinating with the U.S. Joint Inter Agency Task Force South to counter all kinds of illegal trafficking. The 7,500 French troops in the French Caribbean and Guyana play a major role in this mission. They also comprised the bulk of the French contribution to the multinational interim force in Haiti (870 servicemen, 24% of MIFH), which was recently terminated.
Immediately following an American initiative, France became a full partner in the Proliferation Security Initiative. France offered air control training exercises, as well as contributions to, and organization of, naval exercises. In 2005, the French Navy also led a PSI exercise, code-named Basilic, in Toulon (France).
10,000 French forces are present in the Pacific region and the Southern Indian Ocean, where they are controlling sea lanes and protecting important areas for the preservation of natural wealth. They are also able to assist countries of the region ravaged by conflicts or natural disasters, such as during the East Timor crisis or the typhoons in Madagascar.
For years, France has been involved in operations in Africa, hence contributing to international security and stability.5,000 French troops are stationed in Djibouti, Gabon and Senegal under bilateral agreements. Through their presence and their training programs, they contribute to peace and security on the continent. In 2003, at the request of the UN Secretary General, France was the lead nation, under the European Union flag, in a peace-making operation in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Today, in Ivory Coast, under UN resolution 1464, France continues to deploy 4,000 military, alongside a UN force (including 200 French Blue Helmets), at the request of the parties, to help build trust between them and implement a long-term political settlement. At the start of the conflict, French forces evacuated civilians of various nationalities, among them a large number of American citizens.700 French troops are deployed to the Democratic Republic of Congo as part of an EU operation commanded by Germany under a UN mandate in order to foster security during the elections process.
Finally, the French Armed Forces are actively engaged in France’s homeland security missions. A substantial number of gendarmes participate in that effort, while still fulfilling their policing role. Moreover, 1,000 personnel from the French Army, Navy, and Air Force are involved in securing major public facilities, maritime approaches, as well as the national airspace. ..

http://www.ambafrance-us.org/atoz/defense.asp

[lcortez]

Totally agree,I think people should lay off the French,in fact if you actually do research you will find their military record is as good as any of the other major military powers. In terms of technology its right up there with all the others and ahead of a lot,a good example is the FELIN system (French landwarrior), which is regarded as the most mature of the future soldier systems and is already being deployed to the French infantry on a basis of 1:1(in various configs).
I think a lot of the French bashing comes about because they dont blindly follow the US about and put their own interests first, dont see whats wrong with that and wish the UK would do it as well,that way we might win back some of the friends weve lost in recent years.:)

[The_Zergling]

France's decision to withdraw from NATO was one definitely worthy of analysis. It goes without saying that in an ideal alliance, member states would not resent, question, or even notice control exercised over them by other members because they believe it appropriate in view of the collective interests of the alliance. When coordination turns into a relationship in which one or more members suspect that the alliance is simply being used by another member to enhance its own position at their expense (ex: Warsaw Pact), alliances are more likely to unravel. Of course, it doesn't always have to be that dramatic; alliance cohesiveness can be shaken under other less significant circumstances. Resentment among members can arise when an alliance is dominated by one particularly powerful state.

Charles de Gaulle pulled France out of NATO in 1961 because he felt that it had become an instrument of American domination of Western Europe. Whether or not you believe so is another story, but when analyzing these issues it makes sens to start from the point of view of the affected party, and their given knowledge at the time. De Gaulle wanted France to be free of US control. Obviously, the US provided protection from the Soviet Union, and all the member states had this common interest. However, as far as de Gaulle was concerned the probability of such an attack from the Soviet Union was highly unlikely.

In his calculations, the political costs to France for staying in NATO outweighed the benefits it got. What's more, he anticipated with some confidence that regardless of the NATO withdrawal, the alliance would continue to defend Western Europe from Soviet attack, and thus France would be able to gain security from NATO without bearing full political and economic costs of membership.

By doing so, France was able to pursue a more independent foreign policy line. American foreign policy decisions under Eisenhower had twice left France facing military defeat unassisted by the US. These two examples were the Suez War against Egypt in 1956, and the French defeat in Dienbienphu Vietnam, 1954. In this instance, the Eisenhower administration had originally planned to back forces but later reneged on the commitment.

France, which suffered 35000 killed and 48000 wounded in Indochina quite reasonably inferred that the US was not a reliable ally, at least outside of Europe. (So no bringing up the World Wars into this) After de Gaulle reflected on the unhappy military history with the US since the end of WWII, he concluded that the US was committed to using NATO for its own advantage. Thus he decided that France would be better off building its own nuclear force, strengthening the indigenous defense industry, and following its own defense policy.

When examining France's military equipment and foreign policy it certainly pays to examine the historical and structural background, you can learn quite a bit from it.

[lcortez]

Certainly sheds a bit of light on some of Frances procurement choices recently, in particular their decision to stay out of the Eurofighter project in favour of the Rafale,when France is one of the main driving forces behind
the push for a common defence fo Europe.

[Scratch]

Well, just to clarify (and not sure if you're aware of it lcortez). France didn't actually stay out of the EF project but left it in a very early stage, I think in 1985(?). Back then the participating nations couldn't reach an agreement over the specs. France wanted a rather light fighter capable of carrier operations (for obvious reasons), while the UK/Germany favoured a bit heavier jet. Another point was the workshare. Because of it's longstanding history of indigenous defence industry, France wanted Dassault to get the main workload to do, wich the other partners wouldn't agree with. So finally France left. That's one reason why the Rafale and EF are so similar.
And it was not a bad move from nows perspective. The Rafale is capable, and it's in service for seven years now I think, while EF just gets operational. With several countries involved there are nearly alays delays due to political arguments. Finally, EF is probably a slightly better aircraft.
These experiances of France with NATO that Zergling described, and the following pull out, may be seen as an importand factor for the french decission to have a self reliable defence industry. Wich in turn leads to some reluctance to collaborate in international projects.
Up until now they were rather successfull with it.

[lcortez]

Wasnt aware of the earlier French participation in the Eurofighter project,thanks for the info.However I was in no way critizing the French involvement in European defence, in fact I often find myself defending the French when I hear complaints that they 'dont do anything'!
In fact I am quite a big fan of the French and am well aware of their contibutions towards European defence (maybe not on a technical level),and though their proposals for a homogenous EU military ,and their desire for EU to be more independant of US (but not against) very desirable.
Would totally agree French foreign policy very succesfull.:)

[Scratch]

Yes, me too does not critizie France for the way the went, it proved successfull and they have definitly a capable defence industry.
With the growing costs of modern weapon programs, joint-european solutions would be best I believe. However, political interests of the decission-makers often hamper those projects.

BTW, when France pulled out of that specific project was the European Future Aircraft (EFA) program, later (at least in Germany) it was the fighter 90 :roll: finally it's the EF.

[BLUEJACKET]

Anyone here knowledgable about the Foreign Legion? I heard some bad things about it. They are/may be sent to every corner of the Globe on short notice, and the pay is low compared with US enlisted ranks. Can a soldier retire from it?
For what it's worth, France, like the UK, is still a global power with posessions in the Carribean, off N.America, a colony in S.America, S.Indian/Pacific Oceans.

[Kampfwagen]

As far as military-wise, I admire the French. People tend to forget that it was the French that held out for the three hellish years, along with their old nemesis England, of WW1 without the much vaunted assistance of the U.S-of-A. And, as others have said, doctrine and tactics, not equipment or fighting skill (in the former the French were actually largely superior) were the deciding factors in WW2. The French also preformed well in the Indochina war, which the U.S would, to a degree, continue through the 'Vietnam Conflict' and do just about as well in.

I also really like the FAMAS. It looks so...Chic...And works very well, from what I understand!

[lcortez]

Foreign legion is definatly one of the worlds premier fighting forces,and probably in the top 5 when it comes to toughness of training.In terms of overseas deployments they can be seen on all the worlds continents,and have been entrusted with the defence of the European Space Agency installations in Guinea.
Not sure how to post links,but check this website out for all you need to know about the Legion; www.foreignlegionlife.com,also Wikipedia has a great
entry for the Legion as well.

[MaxTesla]

The French Foregin Legion is the number 1 in traning and hardness and everything, but it is infantry traning in the jungle, and modern warfare is all about missiles

you have a missile to kill the other side so he builds a missile to shoot down your missile so you need to build a missile to shoot down his missile that wants to shoot down your missile and so on:china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china: :china:

But in the jungle, France is number 1, unless ofcurse you nuke the jungle :D

[FuManChu]

Bad news for the armed forces if Royale (though she has slipped in the polls to 2nd place) becomes President - she says she'd spend money earmarked for a new carrier on non-military affairs.

[lcortez]

Very bad indeed,considering the current one doesnt actually go anywhere!:)
This only strenghtens my belief that in Europe we should pool our resources on defence.

[eecsmaster]

that's what you get when you put a housewife in office.

[celtic-dragon]

that's what you get when you put a housewife in office.
Nice bit of sexist misogyny there. Do you expect to be cooked for, and cleaned up after as well? Anything to keep a housewife in her place. :nono:

What does being female have to do with defense policy, anyway? You can question her stance without dragging patriarchial condensation into it.

[FuManChu]

What does being female have to do with defense policy, anyway? You can question her stance without dragging patriarchial condensation into it.

One of the biggest proponents of PA2 (the 2nd French carrier) is the Defence Minister - a woman. :D

Royal's problem is that she's been rattled recently, and is obviously defaulting to the safe option - traditional Socialist ideas. She's just wheeling so much absurd and impossible rubbish without saying how she will bring it about.

The Presidency is Sarkozy's for the taking right now, which I see as a good thing.

[celtic-dragon]

One of the biggest proponents of PA2 (the 2nd French carrier) is the Defence Minister - a woman. :D

Royal's problem is that she's been rattled recently, and is obviously defaulting to the safe option - traditional Socialist ideas. She's just wheeling so much absurd and impossible rubbish without saying how she will bring it about.

The Presidency is Sarkozy's for the taking right now, which I see as a good thing.
Nicely said. :) I am not generally conversent with the day to day minutae of French politics, but I have read a few things concerning the debate over power projection and the need for the De Gaulle carrierhttp://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3154/medium/French_carriergaule01.jpg


I agree with some that one aircraft carrier is really not sufficient for any force projection needs, due to maintenance requirements, etc. Prefferably, two or better yet, three such ships are necessary to keep one ready at all times. It is a fair question, though, to ask just what need France has for this class of ship (with a 38,000 ton displacement, she is a large fleet carrier, but not really a "super carrier") I do suspect that some degree of national vanity is really what is at work here, rather then a sober analysis of actual threats. Given the French reluctance to engage in foreign conflicts in recent years, a carrier force, each with a forty-plus strong airwing equipped with Rafale-M fighters is a very expensive demonstration of ego. To be fair, I would still probably support the program were I a French citizen. Unlike many other Americans, I have always admired French military technology, and my mild contempt for French government policies has NEVER applied to her fighting forces, who are top of the line proffesionals. That didn't stop me from cussing out the French Air Force pilot in a Sepecat Jaguar who "bombed" (simulated with flares) my camp at Ft Irwin (National training Center) and forced us into chemical warfare gear in 117 degree heat. If my .50 cal had been loaded with live rounds, I might have taken the shot. :nutkick:

Anyways, us girls have as much right to opine on this subject as you lads. Cheers!

[Scratch]

From Dec'01 the "de Gaulle" was part of a french fleet in the indian ocean joining with others to suport operations in Afghanistan. The CVW flew several missions there.
Of course it's also a part of national patriotism to have a CVN when needed. If it's necessary the de Gaulle can project a good amount of strike capability, perhaps only second to US super-carriers. And to use these as a comparisson isn't probably fair either.

[lcortez]

Was the DeGaulle also the command ship for the European forces during the Kosovo conflict?

[celtic-dragon]

No. She was not commisioned until 2001, when she replaced the Foch.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle_aircraft_carrier

[The_Zergling]

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/wars/France_No_Plans_To_Pull_Out_Of_Afghanistan13001217 0.php

France has no plans to pull its troops out of Afghanistan and will remain loyal to its allies serving in a multinational force there, Prime Minister Francois Fillon said June 5 “France will maintain its presence in Afghanistan,” Fillon told a joint news conference with Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

“There is no plan for France to disengage in Afghanistan. France will be true to its commitments and to its allies,” he said.

France has about 1,000 troops in Afghanistan as part of the 37,000-strong NATO contingent from 37 nations deployed to help local security forces fight the Taliban and wrest back control of the mountainous nation.

President Nicolas Sarkozy pledged before his election last month to bring French troops back home, while the United States has been calling for nations to contribute more forces to battle a Taliban insurrection.

But the president told foreign journalists in an interview this week that now was not the time to pull out.

Geez Sarkozy, make up your mind.

[Pointblank]

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/wars/France_No_Plans_To_Pull_Out_Of_Afghanistan13001217 0.php



Geez Sarkozy, make up your mind.

Guess good old Mr. Harper has convinced him to change his stance as Harper has been extremely critical over the lack of participation of NATO allies in Afghanistan.

[FuManChu]

Geez Sarkozy, make up your mind.

He probably already had, but like any good politician needed to make a promise to help his election chances than he didn't intend to keep.

[sandyj]

French AF Accepts Interim MALE UAV

SIDM Completed Its Flight Acceptance Operations

(Source: EADS; issued June 5, 2008)

SIDM, the French interim system of medium-altitude long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), has successfully completed its flight acceptance operations at Air Base 118, Mont-de-Marsan.

The SIDM performance validation trials were conducted by the missile and UAV management unit (UM MID) of the French armaments directorate DGA, assisted by the Flight Test Centres (CEV) of Istres and Cazaux with participation from the electronic Centre of Armament (CELAR) at Bruz.

SIDM which is a latest-generation system in the medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) category of UAVs, is dedicated to reconnaissance and tracking operations in the depth of the battlefield. Being equipped with optical sensors and radar, it will ensure that missions can be staged around the clock in all weathers. Thanks to its long endurance capability and the secure data transmission, the UAV will also be capable of transmitting data in real time to national and international joint command structures.

This programme is led by EADS as prime contractor and system integrator, with significant contributions from Israel Aerospace Industry (IAI) which has developed and manufactured the aerial platform and other sub-systems.

Since December 2007, an integrated team of personnel from the DGA and the French Air Force has been carrying out verification of this UAV system consisting of three aerial vehicles, the payloads, the laser designator, two ground stations, the line-of-sight (LOS) supplied by EADS Defence & Security through its integrated activity Military Air Systems and satellite data link system supplied by InSNEC.

These operations were conducted in perfect synergy between the teams from the authorities and from industry and the system demonstrated the capabilities required to carry out the assigned mission.

The acceptance campaign was concluded with the system being transferred into the ownership of the French Ministry of Defence, thus enabling training of the personnel at the French Military Flight Test Centre (CEAM). Following this, it will be the task of the UAV squadron to bring the system into operational service in the course of a test phase carried out in conjunction with CEAM.

[sandyj]

French army falling apart, documents show
By Henry Samuel in Paris

Most of France's tanks, helicopters and jet fighters are unusable and its defence apparatus is on the verge of "falling apart", it has emerged.

France's military has been given a bleak prognosis
According to confidential defence documents leaked to the French press, less than half of France's Leclerc tanks – 142 out of 346 – are operational and even these regularly break down.

Less than half of its Puma helicopters, 37 per cent of its Lynx choppers and 33 per cent of its Super Frelon models – built 40 years ago – are in a fit state to fly, according to documents seen by Le Parisien newspaper.

Two thirds of France's Mirage F1 reconnaissance jets are unusable at present.

According to army officials, the precarious state of France's defence equipment almost led to catastrophe in April, when French special forces rescued the passengers and crew of a luxury yacht held by pirates off the Somali coast.

Although ultimately a success, the rescue operation nearly foundered at an early stage, when two of the frigates carrying troops suffered engine failure, and a launch laden with special forces' equipment sunk under its weight.

Later, an Atlantic 2 jet tracking the pirates above Somali territory suffered engine failure and had to make an emergency landing in Yemen.

"External operations, in the Ivory Coast and Lebanon are a fig leaf: we are able to keep up the pretence but in ten years our defence apparatus will fall apart," one high-ranking official said.

The disclosure comes just ten days before President Nicolas Sarkozy announces a major reform of the armed forces, with a defence white paper outlining France's military priorities for the next 15 years.

He is expected to argue that the situation can only improve by reducing the number of France's operational troops from 50,000 to 30,000, and its fighter aircraft, as well as closing military bases.

He will also use the occasion to push for greater military integration in Europe, an issue that France will highlight when it takes over the EU's six-month rotating presidency in July.

French proposals circulating in Brussels show that France wants a new EU military headquarters based in the Belgian capital and run by Europe's new foreign policy chief. It is also calling for a bigger rapid reaction force and for countries to spend more on defence.

France has played down its European defence ambitions for fear of boosting the No vote in Ireland's referendum on the Lisbon treaty on June 12.

In parallel to beefing up the EU's defence capability, Mr Sarkozy is keen on France becoming a full member of Nato's integrated military command structure, which Charles de Gaulle left in 1966. But he is unlikely to make a decision on this until next year.

telegraph.co.uk

[sandyj]

this should make the French baiters unhappy -- poster note
----------------------------------------------------------------
Military Matters: Learning from France

http://www.spacewar.com/images/us-soldier-military-parade-bg.jpg

The French, for all their slowness in giving up the offensive a outrance, nonetheless learned faster than the British, Russians or Americans, all of whom seemed to measure success in their own casualties. In the American Expeditionary Force's appallingly bad staff work lies the origin of another outdated habit of the U.S. military, the fixation of its schools on developing staff officers rather than commanders. The astounding degree to which the early 21st century U.S. armed forces still revolve around World War I is evident to historians but apparently invisible to American soldiers and Marines.

by William S. Lind

Washington (UPI) Jun 13, 2008

Robert Doughty's "Pyrrhic Victory: French Strategy and Operations in the Great War," published in 2005, completes his trilogy on the French army from 1914 to 1940.
Both of Doughty's other books, "The Seeds of Disaster," which is the definitive history of the French army doctrinal development between the wars, and "The Breaking Point," the story of the French defeat at Sedan in 1940 when the Second and Third Generations of modern war met head on, are in the canon.

For those new to Fourth Generation war -- 4GW -- literature, the canon is the list of seven books that, read in the correct order, take the reader from the First Generation into the Fourth. It can be found as an appendix to "FMFM 1-A, Fourth Generation War," on the Defense and the National Interest Web site.

Those who characterize the French as "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" would do well to read "Pyrrhic Victory." France bore the main burden of World War I on the Western Front, the weight of which would have crippled any country. France lost almost 1.4 million men killed or missing in action from a population of only 39 million, plus another 4 million wounded. On average, she lost 890 soldiers killed every day from August 1914 to November 1918. Adjusting for population, that would roughly equal America suffering 7,000 soldiers killed daily for more than four years. Does anyone think today's American society could stand that?

"Pyrrhic Victory" is relevant to the American armed forces today on several grounds. First, it is the story of the development of methodical battle, which was largely a creation of Gen. Philippe Petain -- who comes across in this book as France's most thoughtful general.

The U.S. armed services learned methodical battle from the French army during and after World War I, and it remains the heart of American military doctrine today.

As Doughty writes, "Within the constraints of the methodical battle, rigid centralization and strict obedience -- not decentralization, initiative or flexibility -- became the bywords of the officer corps."

So they remain today. Several years ago an instructor at the U.S. Army Armor School at Fort Knox began his first lecture by saying, "I don't know why I have to teach you all this old French crap, but I do."

The answer to that captain's question is also illustrated in "Pyrrhic Victory." Militaries have enormous continuity over time. Prior to World War I, the French army's doctrine was to take the offensive under all circumstances. That doctrine killed almost a half-million French soldiers in the four months from August to November of 1914 and nearly cost France the war then. Nonetheless, it kept rearing its head again and again throughout the war, despite Petain's bitter and justified resistance. Reincarnated in the Nivelle offensive in April 1917, it failed again so disastrously that the French army mutinied.

The common picture of World War I is of the dunderheaded inability to learn on the part of all participants. It was certainly not true of the Germans, but Doughty's book tends to confirm the image for the Allies.

The French, for all their slowness in giving up the offensive a outrance, nonetheless learned faster than the British, Russians or Americans, all of whom seemed to measure success in their own casualties. In the American Expeditionary Force's appallingly bad staff work lies the origin of another outdated habit of the U.S. military, the fixation of its schools on developing staff officers rather than commanders. The astounding degree to which the early 21st century U.S. armed forces still revolve around World War I is evident to historians but apparently invisible to American soldiers and Marines.

There is also a lesson about learning in the German army in "Pyrrhic Victory," though it must be read between the lines. Doughty makes clear just how close the great German offensive of 1918 came to success. Why did it fail?

As Gen. Max Hoffmann, one of the best operational minds in the First World War German army, hints in his memoirs, German operational reserves were mal-deployed. That, I think, was at least in part a consequence of Germany's fixation on developing the tactics that broke the deadlock of the trenches. Focusing on just one aspect of the challenge, the Germans neglected and thereby forgot some of their expertise at operational art -- fatally, since in war a higher level dominates a lower.

These lessons are all relevant to the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan today, because they are lessons about how militaries learn, or fail to, or learn one thing but forget another. Could someone someday write a book about our current wars with the title "Pyrrhic Victory"? No, because we are not going to win those wars. Is there such a thing as Pyrrhic defeat?

(William S. Lind, expressing his own personal opinion, is director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism at the Free Congress Foundation.)

[Norfolk]

For those who can read French (if not, you're just out of luck, unfortunately), the Ministry of Defense has released the new White Paper:

Défense et Sécurité nationale, LE LIVRE BLANC (June, 2008) - Parts 1-2 (http://www.defense.gouv.fr/content/download/120276/1053255/version/1/file/LB_tome1_partie1%5B1%5D.pdf), and Part 3 (http://www.defense.gouv.fr/content/download/120277/1053259/version/1/file/LB_tome1_partie2%5B1%5D.pdf).

Besides reducing the manpower of the French Armed Forces to a total of 225,000 by 2015 (131,000 Army, 44,000 Navy, and 50,000 Air Force), it proposes rejoining the NATO Command Structure (subject to conditions), and the closure of many bases within Metropolitan France, as well as a few in Africa. France's strategic horizons will broaden to include Asia as well as an increased emphasis upon international diplomacy and "cultural awareness"; by contrast, France's capacity for international military intervention will be substantially reduced (to some 30,000 troops, plus reinforcements) and resort to such will be lessened.

[sandyj]

France to Overhaul Military: Higher Spending to Offset Manning Cuts

France to Overhaul Military, May Rejoin NATO

(Source: Voice of America news; issued June 17, 2008)

PARIS --- French President Nicolas Sarkozy announced a major overhaul of the country's defense to better meet new threats like terrorism. Mr. Sarkozy also announced France was ready to rejoin NATO's military wing, after a four-decade absence.

President Sarkozy presented France's new defense strategy in a much awaited speech, outlining a leaner military that he argued would be better equipped to respond to terrorism, missile attacks and other modern-day threats.

Mr. Sarkozy said that six or seven years from now, French forces will total 225,000. He acknowledged that amounted to a steep cut from their current level of 270,000, and that bases would be closed. But he vowed to make France even stronger militarily than it is today.

While Mr. Sarkozy said the government was looking for cost cutting measures, he also said it would spend roughly $4.6 billion more annually to equip its forces.

The French president also said France aims to soon return to NATO's military command after pulling out in 1966.

Mr. Sarkozy said those who authored the defense report saw no reason why France should not participate in NATO's defense wing. He said France would retain complete freedom on deciding whether or not to participate in military operations and officials say it would remain in control of its nuclear-defense program.

Mr. Sarkozy has also emphasized building up the EU military capabilities, and had been expected to push this when France takes over the bloc's rotating presidency next month. But he may now face a roadblock, since Ireland rejected the EU treaty that is aimed to further integrate Europe, including its defense strategy. (ends)

[Norfolk]

Here's the English rendition of the Ministry of Defence White Paper (H/T to Jedburgh at SWJ for this link):

The French White Paper on defence and national security, June 2008 (http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/Dossier_de_presse_LBlanc_DSN_en_anglais.pdf)

[batskcab]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1320389,00.html

mistaking real bullets for blanks, many injured.

[Soviet General]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1320389,00.html

mistaking real bullets for blanks, many injured.

WTF just happend here!?:confused:

[Pointblank]

WTF just happend here!?:confused:

Someone not following proper procedures... there is going to be hell to pay after all this is said and done...

[lcortez]

The head of France's armed forces has resigned over the matter,and the soldier responsible has been held in jail,pending charges for armed assault,according to the BBC.

With regard to the cuts,I would imagine this will be taken as an opportunity to bin some of the older equipment,such as the AMX30B2 tank,and possibly some of the older apc',which were due to be replaced by the VAB anyway,IMHO.

[Pointblank]

The head of France's armed forces has resigned over the matter,and the soldier responsible has been held in jail,pending charges for armed assault,according to the BBC.

With regard to the cuts,I would imagine this will be taken as an opportunity to bin some of the older equipment,such as the AMX30B2 tank,and possibly some of the older apc',which were due to be replaced by the VAB anyway,IMHO.

Also, there will be closure of military bases overseas, and perhaps a reorganization of military bases at home...

[lcortez]

Have a question relating to the roll out of the FELIN system,has this system been rolled out to the Infantry?,will all of the Infantry be equiped with it?

Would appreciate an informed answer,have looked on Wiki,which states that it has already been issued,but not sure how reliable Wiki is!
Cant find much up to date elsewhere.

[TerraN_EmpirE]

http://www.defense-update.com/events/2008/summary/soldiertech08_felin.htm

Felin will enter company level trials 2009

[Scratch]

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/naval/jni/jni081103_1_n.shtml

French Navy set to test novel landing craft design

The French Navy is set to begin an evaluation of a novel variable-draught landing craft known as the L-Cat, to assess its suitability as a potential future expeditionary watercraft. ...

That's an interesting new design. A little transformer out there.

[Scratch]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/11/11/318499/new-radar-could-boost-rafales-export-prospects.html

New radar could boost Rafale's export prospects

French industry is pinning its hopes for reviving the flagging export fortunes of the Dassault Rafale fighter on the entry into production this month of Europe's first active electronically scanned array radar.
[...]
Thales will start delivering AESA RBE-2 radars to the French air force from 2010 under a €200 million ($256 million) contract covering final development and the initial production of up to four units. Chaltiel expects the French defence ministry to award a full series production contract worth "several hundreds of millions of euros" for the RBE-2 in 2009, to equip the French military's fourth tranche of Rafales, expected to number around 60 aircraft.
[...]
Swapping out the Rafale's passive electronically steered antenna and replacing it with the active antenna takes "less than one hour", says Chaltiel, although France is yet to commit to a retrofit of its existing Rafale fleet. The AESA radar face improves detection range by "about 40% compared with previous technologies of radar", says Chaltiel.

Meanwhile, the Rafale's ability to shoot down an enemy aircraft using only passive detection was demonstrated for the first time in October, says Chaltiel. Two aircraft flew "several miles apart", the first using electronic support measures to monitor the target and communicate its track via Link 16 datalink to the second Rafale.

The second aircraft also passively tracked the target using its infrared search and track system and was able to achieve a lock-on by sending "a few pulses" from its laser rangefinder. The enemy aircraft was then "shot down" using an MBDA "Mica-type" air-to-air missile with an active seeker that became effective at a range of around 18km (10nm), says Chaltiel.
[...]
Thales says that the integration of the RBE-2 positions the Rafale as the only fighter in its class to be equipped with active arrays for both its radar and electronic warfare suite.

Finally, europe gets it's own fighter AESA airborne.
This passive engagement part is also interesting, although using a laser range finder is not really passive.