What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

[Jeff Head]

Here's a simulated (meaning it is not real) overhead satellite picture of what the first PLAN CBG might look like, including the Varyag, two type 052c DDGs, a type 956 DDG, a type 052B DDG, two type 054 FFGs, and two type 093 SSNs.


http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/sat_plan_cbg.jpg

I had posted this on the older forum and thought I would p[ost it here too for comment. Would a 051c be in there...will there be larger, more capable area AAW DDGs or CGs?

[Su-27 Pilot]

Here's a simulated (meaning it is not real) overhead satellite picture of what the first PLAN CBG might look like, including the Varyag, two type 052c DDGs, a type 956 DDG, a type 052B DDG, two type 054 FFGs, and two type 093 SSNs.


http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/sat_plan_cbg.jpg

I had posted this on the older forum and thought I would p[ost it here too for comment. Would a 051c be in there...will there be larger, more capable area AAW DDGs or CGs?

And allow me to add the planes to the carrier ??

20 JH-7 fighter/bomber
20 J-10 multirole fighter
20 Su-30 MKK/MKK2 fighter/bomber
2-3 AWACS
5 Ka-28 Transport helicopters
5 AS 565 Naval multirole helicopters

[tphuang]

JF-17 isn't developed for naval stuff. It's all going to be su-33 or naval J-10s. We'd definitely have more frigates than that. Also, maybe the Ukraine cruiser?

[Sczepan]

take this pic http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/default.asp
and add Varjag (someone in the old forum http://p098.ezboard.com/fsinodefenceforumfrm8.showMessageRange?topicID=211 .topic&start=1&stop=20 got this idea), Minsk and Kiew - and you'll have a part of future PLAN CBG :D

[Jeff Head]

That was my thread in the old forum. Thanks for linking to it. This overhead pic was meant (there and here) to be a satellite depiction of what that ocean-going pic also depicted.

[chinawhite]

JF-17 isn't developed for naval stuff. It's all going to be su-33 or naval J-10s.

He never said JF-17

[Jeff Head]

Here's that pic:

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/plan_cbg1.jpg

[Jeff Head]

And allow me to add the planes to the carrier ??

20 JH-7 fighter/bomber
20 J-10 multirole fighter
20 Su-30 MKK/MKK2 fighter/bomber
2-3 AWACS
5 Ka-28 Transport helicopters
5 AS 565 Naval multirole helicopters

I do not believe that many will fit on the Varyag. Maybe 12 J-10, 16 SU-33 and AWAC and ASW helos.

[PLABUDDY]

And allow me to add the planes to the carrier ??

20 JH-7 fighter/bomber
20 J-10 multirole fighter
20 Su-30 MKK/MKK2 fighter/bomber
2-3 AWACS
5 Ka-28 Transport helicopters
5 AS 565 Naval multirole helicopters


Pilot Varyag's capablity is 32 aircrafts( 22 su-27s and su-30s) and 10 helicopters.

A Nimitz class carrier can cayyr 56 aircrafts..wow!

[MIGleader]

the varyag is messed up in the last pic. the island is on the wrong side.

i doubt the chinese would use j-10's and flankers on the carrier. its one or the other.

the fastest way would be buy around 20 sea flankers and 5 helixs. then you can customize later.

[bd popeye]

A Nimitz class carrier can cayyr 56 aircrafts..wow!

Actually more like 60-70 as it stands now.

Some USN CVW's are deploying without S-3B Vikings. they have been retired and replaced with more SH-60 variants.

Typical CVW make up 2005

48 F-18's variants
4 EA-6B's
4 E-2C's
10-12 SH-60 variants
2 C-2A Cargo planes

[Jeff Head]

the varyag is messed up in the last pic. the island is on the wrong side.

That's why I said it wa a depiction...meaning its not real, just an idea of what it might look like.

That image is simply a mirrored one of one going the other way so I could fit it in there and give it some idea of how it might look.

[Jeff Head]

A Nimitz class carrier can cayyr 56 aircrafts..wow!

Actually, if they wanted to max it out like they were doing during the cold war, a Nimitz can easily carry well in excess of 80 aircraft. The old cold-war load out was:

24 F-14 Air superiority
24 A-7 ground/surface attack
12 A6E All weather, heavy ground/surface attack
6 KA6D Tankers
4 E2C AWACS
4 EA6B EW
10 S3A ASW
6 SH-3G ASW

That's a total of ninety (90) aircraft.

Because of cost cuts and the end of the cold war, the current composition is less, ranging down to between 56 and 68 or so. But that number could be rapidly increased in the event of any kind of crisis or pressing need.

[bd popeye]

Actually, if they wanted to max it out like they were doing during the cold war, a Nimitz can easily carry well in excess of 80 aircraft. The old cold-war load out was:

24 F-14 Air superiority
24 A-7 ground/surface attack
12 A6E All weather, heavy ground/surface attack
6 KA6D Tankers
4 E2C AWACS
4 EA6B EW
10 S3A ASW
6 SH-3G ASW

That's a total of ninety (90) aircraft.

Because of cost cuts and the end of the cold war, the current composition is less, ranging down to between 50 and 60. But that number could be rapidly increased in the event of any kind of crisis or pressing need.

UGG!! I hated that. That was our CVW-11 make up on the USS America in 1981. Talk about a crowded flight & hangar deck:( . But we got the job done. :)

Actually our A-6 squadron, VA-95, had 16 total aircraft including tankers. Also if I'm not mistaken we had 4 F-14's with TARPS included in that Tomcat total.

[Jeff Head]

I am led to understand that they varied somewhat...but somewhere between 86 and 92 aircraft were carried fairly regularly I believe.

By the way...if you get a chance, you may enjoy checking out this thread...

My Trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=273)

I'd be interested in your comments.

[MIGleader]

we can get an idea of varyags holding abulities buy looking at kutznev.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Actually, if they wanted to max it out like they were doing during the cold war, a Nimitz can easily carry well in excess of 80 aircraft. The old cold-war load out was:

24 F-14 Air superiority
24 A-7 ground/surface attack
12 A6E All weather, heavy ground/surface attack
6 KA6D Tankers
4 E2C AWACS
4 EA6B EW
10 S3A ASW
6 SH-3G ASW

That's a total of ninety (90) aircraft.

Because of cost cuts and the end of the cold war, the current composition is less, ranging down to between 56 and 68 or so. But that number could be rapidly increased in the event of any kind of crisis or pressing need.

Is the F-18 series a fighter/bomber or multirole ??

[Jeff Head]

Is the F-18 series a fighter/bomber or multirole ??

Multi-role. The new Super Hornet has a much greater range and many other performance characteristics, including carry capacity.

It is an extremely good air superiority fighter.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Multi-role. The new Super Hornet has a much greater range and many other performance characteristics, including carry capacity.

It is an extremely good air superiority fighter.
What the PLAAF equiavalent of the F-18 ??

[Jeff Head]

What the PLAAF equiavalent of the F-18 ??

Would have to be the SU-27s and SU-33s I believe.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Would have to be the SU-27s and SU-33s I believe.
You mean the Su 30s. PLAFF has none of the SU-33s, but in the future PLAAF and the military central commitee is trying to make a third or fourth deal with a new bunch of the latest Su-27 SM and advanced Radar and fire control-system to keep up with the world current. One of the PLAFF senior general shows strong interest with the Su-37 All-weather multirole fighter.

[Jeff Head]

You mean the Su 30s. PLAFF has none of the SU-33s.

I was including the PLAN in there...but yes, the SU-30 too.

[Su-27 Pilot]

I was including the PLAN in there...but yes, the SU-30 too.

Can you post some Su-33s pictures in the PLAN. I tried all over the place but cant find even one. :o

[Gollevainen]

Migth be hard to find as there isent any one in PLA service...well in other hand, migth not be. We have seen pics of even Eurocopter tiger in chinese service...sadly, but the point is, chinese naval aviation or any other aviation branch hasent got that plane in their inventory

[Su-27 Pilot]

Migth be hard to find as there isent any one in PLA service...well in other hand, migth not be. We have seen pics of even Eurocopter tiger in chinese service...sadly, but the point is, chinese naval aviation or any other aviation branch hasent got that plane in their inventory

Some of the Su-30 MKKs are in service with the PLAN naval aviation right ??

[Su-27 Pilot]

The 3M-80E Moskit supersonic anti-ship missile which is highly difficult for antiaircraft cannons and air defence missiles to intercept, the only aircraft carrier killer in the PLAN inventory ???

[Jeff Head]

Well, I do not believe the PLAN has any SU-33s yet. My prior post is under the expectation that they ultimately will and that those aircraft off of a Chinese carrier would be some of the competition for the F-18s.

As it stands now, I guess the Chinese produced J-11s (license built SU-27s), purchased SU-27s and SU-30s are the actual inventory that the PRC has.

Here's a good article regarding the 2005 Moscow Airshow that has interesting information on the PLAN SU-33 possibility.

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.78/pub_detail.asp

[Su-27 Pilot]

Well, I do not believe the PLAN has any SU-33s yet. My prior post is under the expectation that they ultimately will and that those aircraft off of a Chinese carrier would be some of the competition for the F-18s.

As it stands now, I guess the Chinese produced J-11s (license built SU-27s), purchased SU-27s and SU-30s are the actual inventory that the PRC has.

Here's a good article regarding the 2005 Moscow Airshow that has interesting information on the PLAN SU-33 possibility.

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.78/pub_detail.asp

My father used to be in the PLAN East Sea fleet, and he and his old officer buddies told me that the PLAN even in his fleet changed so much in just ten years. !! But none of the two sovremenny is in his naval base though.

[Jeff Head]

My father used to be in the PLAN East Sea fleet, and he told me that PLAN changed so much in just ten years. !!

I believe it.

In the few years I have been watching the PLAN, their growth and modernization rates are simply incredible. The rate at which the PLAN is building ships right now is breathtaking.

I pray we can all avoid any tensions or conflict.

[Su-27 Pilot]

I believe it.

In the few years I have been watching the PLAN, their growth and modernization rates are simply incredible. The rate at which the PLAN is building ships right now is breathtaking.

I pray we can all avoid any tensions or conflict.

China and USA both wants peace for the sake of mankind. But for some reason, both nations still has enemy like suspicion towards one another.

[Jeff Head]

Events at the end of World War II, the Korean War, the basic differences between a constitutional republic (US) and Communism (PRC) all play into the ongoing situation.

My guess is, that if the PRC moves more and more towards easing the government's control of its people, and as the Chinese people themselves become more free and prosperous, that everything will work out fine.

If the communist leaders are committed to reform and a peaceful integration of China into world affairs, I believe conflict will be avoided.

Of course, the key issue right now in that equation is Taiwan. If they and the PRC can somehow continue to move forward peacefully, again, I believe conflict will be avoided.

As I said, I hope and pray that is the case.

[TJJH]

Just went to China in the last few months, plenty of freedom there. The police don't stop vendors from chasing down customers, and if you don't want something stolen you better be able to look intimidating or be ready to chase down someone on their own turf. Pretty much the same as NYC, except the vendors part. In the aspect of economy China is far looser than America is. Same with politics really, until you get to the Provincial level.

[maddogy4645]

I think that the battlegroups are not gonna be integrated with 52C and 52Bs and Sovs, since by the time PLAN get their 1st carrier, all those ships would be incapable of defending the carriers!

There are some techs and ships that PLAN must possess before they're gonna get their first carrier:

-towed array sonars
-carrier capable fixed wing long range patrol and ASW planes like the Orions
-hot launch standardization on all front tier ships
-short range self defence missiles similar to ESSM, sea RAM, or Tor-M
-test proven cruise missile for land attacks
-carrier capable AWAC
-multirole or dedicated AD cruisers
-better APAR or PAR, and central computer for AD DDGs and cruisers
-medium range SAM like the Shitil adn Standard I

[Jeff Head]

I think that the battlegroups are not gonna be integrated with 52C and 52Bs and Sovs, since by the time PLAN get their 1st carrier, all those ships would be incapable of defending the carriers!

Well, as other nations go, the 52C, 52B, Sovs and 51C are very capable compared to what some of the other country's with a carrier or two have to defend their flattops.

I believe a combination of the various missile defenses (with differing missiles, differing ranges, etc.) of the 52C, 52B, and Sov would be fairly effective layered defense against AAW. All of those ships, particularly the 52B and Sov also have what amounts to good ASW defense too.

For a start for the PLAN, I believe the Varyag would be as well defended as any other nation's capabilities outside of the US, and perhpas Britian or Japan.

[MIGleader]

the cheap way to get a cvbg is to get all the russian gear, but that wont really help experience. the plan may already be building an indegedous carrier, so what are the possibilities for it?

[Jeff Head]

the cheap way to get a cvbg is to get all the russian gear, but that wont really help experience. the plan may already be building an indegedous carrier, so what are the possibilities for it?

I would be surprised if the PLAN plans are not already very far advanced for doing just that. My guess is that initial steel cutting has either already taken place, or soon will.

Just my opinion though.

[Su-27 Pilot]

I would be surprised if the PLAN plans are not already very far advanced for doing just that. My guess is that initial steel cutting has either already taken place, or soon will.

Just my opinion though.

Your are right. The PLAN isnt that advanced in electrnic and naval warfare to build its own carrier without Russian or any foreign aids. But again, China open its market for private companys and no one knows in the future.

[Jeff Head]

Pilot Varyag's capablity is 32 aircraft.

PLABuddy, I am adding the picture you requested on that other thread here too...of the potential "Heavy" PLAN CBG with a converted Kiev class added, along with a 51C:

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/sat_plan_hvycbg.jpg

[MIGleader]

Your are right. The PLAN isnt that advanced in electrnic and naval warfare to build its own carrier without Russian or any foreign aids. But again, China open its market for private companys and no one knows in the future.

the sources i hear from say the general design of the ship is already being completed. aid probably would be taken from a european carrier builder, since the russians are not really that experienced in carriers. building one shouldn;t be that hard, since china has experince with large tankers and cargo vessels.

[Jeff Head]

the general design of the ship is already being completed. aid probably would be taken from a european carrier builder.

I tend to agree that some design is already in final stages (probably in addition to whatever they plan with the Varyag) and believe that they either already have...or soon will cut first steel.

[PLABUDDY]

PLABuddy, I am adding the picture you requested on that other thread here too...of the potential "Heavy" PLAN CBG with a converted Kiev class added, along with a 51C:

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/sat_plan_hvycbg.jpg

Thank you very much Jeff. I appreciate it very much. Just one thing though..should there be missiles launchers at the front of the Kiev class carrier?

Anyways thank you very much for your help.

[Jeff Head]

...should there be missiles launchers at the front of the Kiev class carrier

Well, I figured if the PLAN does go for refitting and modernizing the Kiev, they would have the Russians do a similar job on her as they are doing for the Gorshkov for the Indians and make it a full carrier.

Since it is all conjecture and "what if" anyway, I went ahead and depcited it that way.

In its actual life in the Russian Navy, it did have all those weapons systems forward.

[MIGleader]

i think kiev and minsk are far more useful as helo carring heavy missle cruisers than a full carrier. unlike gorkie, they wernt designed to be reffited any ways. as helo crusers, they could weild immense firepower. it would also be easier to refit.

[Jeff Head]

they could weild immense firepower. it would also be easier to refit.

I believe the most versatiel, most powerful, and strongest naval power projection instrument (short of an SSBN) is an aircraft carrier. Given the range of the aircraft (with refueling potential) and their versatile loadouts, they are more flexible and more powerful in my opinion.

But that is just my opinion.

[MIGleader]

of course china will have a carrier, just not converted from old junk like minsk and kiev. a european style light carrier to aid varyag would be good.

[Su-27 Pilot]

of course china will have a carrier, just not converted from old junk like minsk and kiev. a european style light carrier to aid varyag would be good.

BTW, when are those Europeans going to lift the Arms Embargo ??

[BrotherofSnake]

BTW, when are those Europeans going to lift the Arms Embargo ??

I don't think it is going to be lifted anytime soon.

[MIGleader]

actually, the lifting is imminent. the Europeans just cant resist selling weapons to china despite their embargo. many disscussions have made progress in the lifting of the embargo. france is particularly eager. if china can showcase its new society in the 08 olympics, the embargo is gone. america lifting it may take a while. if ever.

[k1975]

To be true, I personally dun not think that US will risk to go out for a full scale war with China. The reason is very simple, US has too many interest in China in term of foreign direct investment. Japan is too close to risk a war with China as well. In the last great war, Jap was protected from China due to the fact that Chinese had no bombers or ant surface fleet. More importantly, China does not have nukes.

Today, the scenrio is abit different. Jap despite having a more modern air force and navy, but this does not give it a distinct advantge over China. China has the depth to absorb any first strike attack from Jap / US. But it does not hold true for Jap. I am quite sure that chinese leaders are well aware of the hardliners' speech on using Nukes in conflicts with a global superpower. The purpose is to let US know and have a "mutural" understanding.

This speech also serve as a "gentle" reminder for jap, one of China traditional the good fiend. Despite the fact the Jap is trying to build a missile shield, but it would not be possible for Jap a build a effective shield against a saturated attack of 600 short range missiles (some nuclear tipped). Jap will win a surface navy war but at a cost (depending how good the chinese navy perform, hopefully do not repeat the 1895 show again). A war btw China and jap will only result in a win-lose situation. US & Euro (win), China, Jap, Korea, Taiwan (lost).

[Raven]

I have been fortunate to have been to NAS Oceana where much of the Atlantic fleet is based. It is only then can one see how much of Naval Flight Operations is done just to prepare the men and women of the US Navy and Marine Corps to launch and land on the carriers. This is different from operations in Harriers which is also demanding but to a lessor extend. USN and USMC aircraft spend a huge amount of extra time practing approaches at practice carrier landing fields. The training is very expensive and very dangerous (also fun to watch and listen too). From what I have seen, the SU-33 and MiG-29K are great naval aircraft. Be curious to see them doing practice landings.


Oh by the way, contrary to what many think in this forum, most Europeans and Americans do not wish to see conflict between the Asian powers or with the Asian powers. With family ties to the Philippines and a sister in law who has been in Japan (and loved it) ANY war would be sad for the region and the world.

[Jeff Head]

I have been fortunate to have been to NAS Oceana where much of the Atlantic fleet is based. It is only then can one see how much of Naval Flight Operations is done just to prepare the men and women of the US Navy and Marine Corps to launch and land on the carriers.

I have seen those landings as well. Extremely impressive. When with the family, we would sometimes just stop on the side of the highway to watch those F-14s come in.

[bd popeye]

I have been fortunate to have been to NAS Oceana where much of the Atlantic fleet is based. It is only then can one see how much of Naval Flight Operations is done just to prepare the men and women of the US Navy and Marine Corps to launch and land on the carriers.

Raven I was in the USN for 20 years. I was an "airdale" :D Served on 5 carriers and major NAS's & squadrons. :cool: ;) I've been telling members of this forum about how hard the US Navy trains. One member said it was "BS" and just US exxagerating how much the USN trains..Oh really? Some really have no clue. :rolleyes: If anyone could experience 10 days at sea on a USN CVN watching the whole ship work... Espeically the flight deck. They would be in awe period. Having a CV is one thing. But operating one in a efficent manner takes time i.e. experience and lots of training!

[Jeff Head]

Having a CV is one thing. But operating one in a efficent manner takes time i.e. experience and lots of training!

Amen popeye...as evidenced, even after more than a decade, by the dismal number of sorties the Russians are capable of with their one carrier...and it is a larger one like Varyag.

I do not believe they perform hardly any night time activity...compared to 24 hour operation capability on the decks of US carriers.

Here's a pic of some night time ops...I am sure with which you are very familiar...

http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Dec1998/981217-N-0063C-001_screen.jpg

[bd popeye]

I do not believe they perform hardly any night time activity...compared to 24 hour operation capability on the decks of US carriers.

That is so true. Some months ago the Russian carrier Kuznetsov put to sea for two weeks. The Russians planned 40 takeoffs..I assume the same number of landings in a two week period. 40 launches and recoveries? :p A USN CV does that many during the first 4 hous of a normal operating day.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=740313&C=europe

The Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov left the port of
Murmansk on March 23 to carry out military exercises in the north
Atlantic, Russian news reports said.

For two weeks, the Admiral Kuznetsov will implement a series of
military exercises involving the airplanes on board, ITAR-TASS
quoted the Russian Navy chief-of-command as saying.

More than 40 takeoffs are scheduled to take place during the
exercises.

The Admiral Kuznetsov went into active service in 1993. It is 302
{906ft} meters long, weighs 55,000 tons, can reach a speed of 30
knots and can carry up to 36 planes, 16 helicopters and 1,960 men.

The aircraft carrier last went into the open sea in November 2004.

[MIGleader]

well, the chinese can get the french to help them with carrier tactics for 24 hour op. if the chinese put a carrier in service by 08, they should get it working to potential by 2010-2012. maybe they will send a few sailors and pilots to trai with the russians.

[Jeff Head]

well, the chinese can get the french to help them with carrier tactics for 24 hour op.

The French are not that much better thatn the Russinas, though I will admit their operations are more proficient and they have more experience having plowed the waves with a couple of medium sized carriers for years..

But, to date, no one performs carrier ops like the USN...no one. For the PLAN to get up to that level of proficiency, it will take decades, just as it has taken the US Navy...and the US Navy has gained that level of proficiency over those years with a dozen or more carriers operating.

Just saying this to show the relative amount of experience required to get where the US Navy is. That is probably not the PLAN's intention in any case.

[Jeff Head]

That is so true.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=740313&C=europe

The Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov left the port of
Murmansk on March 23 to carry out military exercises in the north
Atlantic, Russian news reports said.

More than 40 takeoffs are scheduled to take place during the
exercises.

Thanks popeye, that was exactly the exercises I was referring to but did not have a link to the story.

[MIGleader]

The French are not that much better thatn the Russinas, though I will admit their operations are more proficient and they have more experience having plowed the waves with a couple of medium sized carriers for years..

But, to date, no one performs carrier ops like the USN...no one. For the PLAN to get up to that level of proficiency, it will take decades, just as it has taken the US Navy...and the US Navy has gained that level of proficiency over those years with a dozen or more carriers operating.

Just saying this to show the relative amount of experience required to get where the US Navy is. That is probably not the PLAN's intention in any case.

military exchanges are not uncommon between china and u.s. the chinese might send a crew to train on a u.s carrier, and the u.s might send a crew to check out china's subs.

[Jeff Head]

Well, under the Clinton administration I know there were quite a few. But I do not recall hearing of any under the Bush administration.

With the rapidly advancing capabilities of the PLAN, both quantitatively and qualitatively, I do not believe there wil be any in the near future.

But even if there were, the only way to gain this type of experience, meaning efficient and effective 24 hour a day carrier air ops, is learning them through years of actually doing it.

[MIGleader]

are u sure? the u.s and china are showing eachother their latest destroyers really soon. it is a friendly visit.

[Jeff Head]

I had not heard of this. Is it simply steaming into a joint harbor and take a look...or is it having officers on board during joint exercises. Huge difference.

[MIGleader]

well, i know the chinese get to have officers inspect an aegis destryer. i dont know what the u.s officers get to look at yet.

[Jeff Head]

I know the chinese get to have officers inspect an aegis destryer.

Yes, I had heard that too, and even seen pictures. But I believe that was years ago...not recent.

[bd popeye]

Gentlemen I don't know about joint excersises but I know some USN ships have made port calls to the PRC. My son's former ship the USS Paul F Foster DD-964 made a port visit to Qingdao in Nov '02. Also the 7th Fleet flagship the USS Blue Ridge LCC-19 visited the PRC a few months ago. I'm sure there were some friendly exchanges. :)

http://www.c7f.navy.mil/news/2002/11/13.htm

USS Paul F. Foster visits Qingdao, China
USS Paul F. Foster public affairs
Posted 11/25/2002

QINGDAO, China -- USS Paul F. Foster (DD 964) arrived here Nov. 24, becoming the first U.S. Navy ship to visit mainland China since March 2001.

The Spruance class destroyer's visit signals the beginning of several military-to-military exchanges with China planned to take place over the coming months and is evidence of progress made by the administration’s continued improvement in the Sino-American relationship.

Foster's commanding officer, Cmdr. Chuck Nygaard, is scheduled to meet with Vice Adm. Ding Yi Ping, China's Commander, North Sea Fleet, and also the Mayor of Quingdao.

According to Nygaard, the visit is of particular importance in the developing relationship between the two country’s navies.

"Anytime you bring together the navies of two great nations it’s a significant event,” he said. “We value this opportunity to visit such an important Navy port, and we are looking forward to enjoying some great hospitality by our Chinese hosts.”

Lt. Cmdr. Mike Brown, U.S. Navy spokesman for Battle Force Seventh Fleet, confirmed that Foster has been participating in recent battle group exercises and said this port call is a method of further developing mutual respect between the U.S. and Chinese navies.

"Although the USS Blue Ridge [LCC 19] visited Shanghai last year, this is the first visit to Qingdao since the USS Chancellorsville's [CG 62] visit in August 2000." Brown said "Everyone benefits from a port call like this one because it promotes greater understanding between our two navies and it's fun for the Sailors too."

Forward deployed from Everett, Washington, more than one-third of Foster's Sailors have scheduled a trip to the Great Wall of China and various other sightseeing locations, affording the crew an opportunity to interact with local citizens. Also while in Qingdao, the crew plans to enjoy recreational activities such as a basketball game and tug-o-war contest with the Chinese Sailors, boosting morale between the two nations’ maritime forces.

The Foster is a highly versatile multi-mission destroyer, capable of operating either independently or with amphibious assault and aircraft carrier task forces with primary missions including, the prosecution of both surface and subsurface threats. As a strike platform, Foster is equipped with long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles to attack land targets. Foster's other offensive assets include Harpoon anti-ship missiles, five-inch guns, and ship or helicopter launched torpedoes.

Foster is approximately 563 feet long, travels over 30 knots and has a displacement of 9,200 tons. The ship has a complement of nearly 320 crewmembers and has been in service for 27 years. The ship is completing a six-month deployment and is scheduled for decommissioning in March 2003

[Jeff Head]

Yes...there are port calls and friendly visits and exchanges. I agree whole heartidly with that and it is normal.

But that is a far cry from joint exercises where line officers are onboard our AEGIS cruisers during those exercises...which did occur in the 90's.

My point is that I do not believe that type of thing is going on now. The other, port calls and friendly visists, is occurring and should be encouraged on both sides IMHO.

[Raven]

I agree with Jeff and Popeye,

It takes years to train a pilot to be a naval aviator. The helicopter pilots to the E2 and C2 pilots take months to prepare for the first carrier qualification tests (CQs). Again, as I mentioned above, you have to see C2s, Hornets and E2s in the landing pattern for HOURS doing night FCLPs (Field Carrier Landing Practice). In fact, the US Navy has more training fields than active duty Air Stations.

Ship Board Naval Aviation is very demanding of the aircrews,ground crews, ship's company as well as the aircraft. It is very expensive, time consuming and requires tremendous support. At Fentres NALF, where the C2s,E2s,Hornets and Super Bugs do FCLPs there is a fight to get the entire squadrons in on time. The current limit is 5 aircraft in the pattern. As such, squadrons schedule time to get as many pilots FCLP time as they can. More FLCPs go on at Chambers Field and Oceana.

Could the PLAN do it? Sure, but they have to spend billions on the training program. Aside from France and Brazil, the US is the only continuous operator of conventional full deck CVs. The Russians would like to get more funding for their ships but their excersises are very limited in scope and duration. They have great pilots, good aircraft but no funding.

Other Carrier Nations do get help from the US Navy. The Super Entendards of the Argentine Navy have done CQs often on our CV/Ns. The now retired French Navy F-8Ns also were common visitors to USN CVs. It depends on what's going on and where the boats are.

Can anyone tell me what kind of night operations the PLAAF and PLAN do? I know from friends who were with a NATO/UN fleet that most of the small VSTOL CVs ceased flight ops at dusk.

[bd popeye]

Raven Outstanding reply.I could have not said it better myself. Training is of the utmost importance in Naval Avation. And the money? Well Uncle Sam has plenty.

Other Carrier Nations do get help from the US Navy

Very true. The French have their catapults on the Charles De Gualle worked on my shipyard workers from Northrup-Grumman in Newport News VA. Check it out.

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=3766

I know from friends who were with a NATO/UN fleet that most of the small VSTOL CVs ceased flight ops at dusk.

Very true. Even some years ago when onboard the USS America and operating with the Argentine carrier soon after it was dark they stopped flight operations...What? No night ops?? Unheard of in the USN. The USN operates ..24/7... 365. Period.

[PLABUDDY]

can we go back to chinese carrier discussion now?

[bd popeye]

can we go back to chinese carrier discussion now?

I agree. I know the world is a few years away from seeing a PLAN CVBG. I just wonder about what sort of aircraft will be on the CV? Personally unless the PLAN has some sort of sea going variant of the J-10 in R&D somewhere they should purchase Russian Mig-29's.

[Raven]

PLA Buddy,

this was a discussion on what the PLAN would need to do if it planned on having fullsized convention aircraft flying on and off of CVs. It was also a discussion of why so few nations invest time,money and lives in operating carriers.

So now that we move back to the PLAN CV, what is there discuss about it?
Here are some questions the PLAN needs to ask itself

-What aircraft are availble to be used as carrier aircraft?

-What kinds of missions do we want to fly from any CV?

-What kinds of support facilities will a CV and it's air wing require?

-What kinds of things make a conventional CV work?

-What would the CV battle group look like?

-What is the min/max number of combat aircraft such a CV could have?

-Where are the Fighter,Attack and various support squadrons coming from?

-How do arrestor systems and cross deck pendants work?

-How do catapults work?

-Will Su-30s,J-11s or J-10s become CV based aircraft.

[bd popeye]

PLA Buddy,

this was a discussion on what the PLAN would need to do if it planned on having fullsized convention aircraft flying on and off of CVs. It was also a discussion of why so few nations invest time,money and lives in operating carriers.

So now that we move back to the PLAN CV, what is there discuss about it?
Here are some questions the PLAN needs to ask itself

-What aircraft are availble to be used as carrier aircraft?

-What kinds of missions do we want to fly from any CV?

-What kinds of support facilities will a CV and it's air wing require?

-What kinds of things make a conventional CV work?

-What would the CV battle group look like?

-What is the min/max number of combat aircraft such a CV could have?

-Where are the Fighter,Attack and various support squadrons coming from?

-How do arrestor systems and cross deck pendants work?

-How do catapults work?

-Will Su-30s,J-11s or J-10s become CV based aircraft.

Very nice Raven. I've asked some of those questions myself in the old forum. As and old salt I know you just can't operate a CV overnight. Many in this forum are very young and do not understand the complexties of operating a CV.

I don't think any PLAN CV will have catapults. Aressting gear probaly. So they should obtain an aircraft like a Mig-29. As for the escorts I think the PLAN is doing well now to develop these type ships.

[Jeff Head]

-What aircraft are availble to be used as carrier aircraft?

The aircraft purchases, or their own new designs, or modifications to their own designs, will tell us what type of carrier program the PLAN intends.

If they start buying or building SU-33s...or even modifying exitsing SU-27 or SU-30 aircraft to become SU-33-like aircraft, then they are looking at the Varyag and a fuller CV capability. Probably following that up with a full deck carrier of their own in the future.

If it is mods to the J-10 or Mig-29s, then IMHO, they intend a less capable, more defensive carrier supporting ASW and Amphib ops, but not full power projection.

We'll just have to wait and see. My own personal opinion is that they intend on doing something with the Varyag.

[Jeff Head]

can we go back to chinese carrier discussion now? So Jeff are u going to show us the new pic u have?

Here you go PLABUDDY, a PLAN CBG with two carriers, two 52Cs, two 51Cs, 1 52B, one Sov, two 054 FFGs and FIVE SSNs.

http://www.jeffhead.com//redseadragon/sat_plan_vhvycbg.jpg

[MIGleader]

a carrier will do china alot of good.
if they want a carrier fast, fix varyag and buy sea flankers. i dont see the point of a mig.

if they want one a bit later, build your own off a european design, and put j-10 varient on it.

[Jeff Head]

if they want a carrier fast, fix varyag and buy sea flankers. if they want one a bit later, build your own and put j-10 varient on it.

I believe the PLAN may well do both.

[TJJH]

Thanks Jeff, this is really appreciated.

[Jeff Head]

Thanks Jeff, this is really appreciated.

You are welcome. It's just my opinion and projection based on what is going on in the PLAN shipyards and what they might accomplish with the hulls they have available to them.

[swimmerXC]

is it jsut me or there's no Kiev in that pic...?

[Jeff Head]

is it jsut me or there's no Kiev in that pic...?

The Kiev class is the smaller one to the right. It is made up in the configuration that the Russians are doing for the Gorshkov (the last Kiev class) for the Indians...making it a full deck carrier smaller than the Varyag.

[swimmerXC]

oh, my mistake, i though it was two Varyag class :D
did you make this?

[Jeff Head]

Did you make this?

Yes. It's a fictional projection of what the PLAN CBG might look like. That one was in direct answer to PLABUDDY's request to make it more submarine centric...to add more SSNs.

[Jeff Head]

Can anyone tell me what kind of night operations the PLAAF and PLAN do?

Well, I would bet that their land based air (both PLAN and PLAAF) conduct some fairly high level of night time operations for sure. They have no operational aircraft carriers so it is a given that they are not conducting them...and my guess is, once they do have one, it will be a good while before they have effective (or maybe even conduct) night time operations.

I cannot speak for their ship borne helos, but I would imagie some level of night time capability exists there.

[Jeff Head]

It takes years to train a pilot to be a naval aviator. The helicopter pilots to the E2 and C2 pilots take months to prepare for the first carrier qualification tests (CQs). Again, as I mentioned above, you have to see C2s, Hornets and E2s in the landing pattern for HOURS doing night FCLPs (Field Carrier Landing Practice). In fact, the US Navy has more training fields than active duty Air Stations.

Ship Board Naval Aviation is very demanding of the aircrews,ground crews, ship's company as well as the aircraft. It is very expensive, time consuming and requires tremendous support. At Fentres NALF, where the C2s,E2s,Hornets and Super Bugs do FCLPs there is a fight to get the entire squadrons in on time. The current limit is 5 aircraft in the pattern. As such, squadrons schedule time to get as many pilots FCLP time as they can. More FLCPs go on at Chambers Field and Oceana.

Very well said...and bears repeating. For the PLAN to REALLY get into the CBG business, they will have to learn this and then be willing to spend the dollars and the time to achieve it.

[MIGleader]

eveything takes time and money. wehich is why the plan nneds to get a carrier now!!! india got a carrier working in a few years, so china can too.

construction probably pends on: political situation, engine aquisition, weapons aquisition, system aquisition, and aircraft aquisition.

[Jeff Head]

eveything takes time and money. wehich is why the plan nneds to get a carrier now!!!

Agreed. If they intend to become proficient at carrier operations of any type, the sooner they begin, the sooner they will gain some degree of proficiency.

[PLABUDDY]

Agreed. If they intend to become proficient at carrier operations of any type, the sooner they begin, the sooner they will gain some degree of proficiency.
I agree.:china: does anyone know what is the PLAN doing with Varyag..we havent heard about that giant carrier for a while now.:nono:

[Jeff Head]

does anyone know what is the PLAN doing with Varyag..we havent heard about that giant carrier for a while now.:nono:

Haven't seen anything new myself. Will look around for info this weekend.

[Sczepan]

The Kiev class is the smaller one to the right. It is made up in the configuration that the Russians are doing for the Gorshkov (the last Kiev class) for the Indians...making it a full deck carrier smaller than the Varyag.
@ Jeff, could you give us a pic without midification of Kiew-Class?
In my opinion ists more realistic, that the PLAN would use both of these ships in her original design.

[Jeff Head]

@ Jeff, could you give us a pic without midification of Kiew-Class?

Sure...I'll try and get it on here today sometime.

[Sczepan]

thanks a lot

[Jeff Head]

thanks a lot

You are welcome. Should be on in the next couple of hours or so.

[Jeff Head]

@ Jeff, could you give us a pic without midification of Kiew-Class?

Here you go:

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/sat_plan_vhvycbg1.jpg

[MIGleader]

dude, thats like the entire modern PLAN. theres now way they would do that.
the varyag, wit 1 52c, 1 52b, 1 sov, and two 54a, and two 93 and two yuan would do nicely.

[Jeff Head]

dude, thats like the entire modern PLAN.

Look at the earlier pictures on this thread. They show a smaller and more realistic PLAN CBG.

But I got a direct request to show a heavy CBG with lots of subs and two carriers...so I did.

In addition...by 2009, when this picture indicates it is happening, the PLAN will have quite a few more major surface combatants to use as escorts.

[MIGleader]

by 09, china will have
2 52, 1 51, 4 sovs, 2 52b, 2 52c, 2 51c, 4 54, and 10 53.
12 kilo, 2-4 yuan, 10 song, 3-4 93, 1 92, 1-2 94
hopefully an lpd and carrier...

[Jeff Head]

by 09, china will have
2 52, 1 51, 4 sovs, 2 52b, 2 52c, 2 51c, 4 54, and 10 53.
12 kilo, 2-4 yuan, 10 song, 3-4 93, 1 92, 1-2 94
hopefully an lpd and carrier...

I think they will have more DDG's, possible some new ones. The carrier and LPD are definitely possible too. We shall see.

[Sea Dog]

I agree with Jeff Head. They will definitely concentrate more on DDG's for the time being. With a carrier, where will they project naval air power? The South China Sea is the only place I can think of. The Indian Ocean (Near Persian Gulf)?

[Jeff Head]

where will they project naval air power? The South China Sea is the only place I can think of.

They definitely have to reliably clear that first island chain...but with their sub abd DDG buildup they are working towards it. Also preparing for the more distant future with deals with Pakistan, Venezuela, their activities in Canal Zone, the Bahama, etc.

I still believe they will field a carrier or two...but it will probably be years before they are truly proficient with them.

[Sczepan]

dude, thats like the entire modern PLAN. theres now way they would do that.:nono:
I asked Jeff Head to do so - Jeff, thanks again;
the pic is not a speculation of future PLAN CBGs;
it will show you a combination, which the PLAN could start easy in a short time by using the know how and blue prints, which exist in chinese yards ....
- lets think about it :coffee:

[MIGleader]

I think they will have more DDG's, possible some new ones. The carrier and LPD are definitely possible too. We shall see.

well, the chinese navy recieved priority funding those last five years, which allowed them to build the 52bs, 52cs, yuans, songs, and buy those kilos and sovs.

with these next five years, the army gets the cash, so the plan will need to save money for important tasks. ithink the plan already has enough modrn ffgs and ddgs for now. it can also spend a some money to modernize some of the jianhus and jiangweis. but most of that money needs to go to building an lpd, yutings, and a medium carrier.

[tphuang]

well, the chinese navy recieved priority funding those last five years, which allowed them to build the 52bs, 52cs, yuans, songs, and buy those kilos and sovs.

with these next five years, the army gets the cash, so the plan will need to save money for important tasks. ithink the plan already has enough modrn ffgs and ddgs for now. it can also spend a some money to modernize some of the jianhus and jiangweis. but most of that money needs to go to building an lpd, yutings, and a medium carrier.
the army isn't going to get money any time soon. They just had another 200,000 cut back recently. The money is going where it should be going - developing new planes and building new ships. With the growing shipbuilding technology in China, it's not as expensive as you might think (or at least much cheaper than buying souvremmy).

[Jeff Head]

with these next five years, the army gets the cash, so the plan will need to save money for...building an lpd, yutings, and a medium carrier.

I believe the PLAN will continue getting the cash. Now that the infrastructure for modern naval shipbuilding has been built up...I see them pouring on the coal as opposed to backing off.

Just my opinion.

[Jeff Head]

With the growing shipbuilding technology in China, it's not as expensive as you might think.

I agree and I believe the PLAN will keep getting the cash to do just that.

We shall see. Time will tell.

[MIGleader]

no guys. the plan may get the some more cash than it usually may, but the army gets most of it. 200000 isnt alot

the funding is done in cycles in 1990-1994, the army got funding
1995-99, the airforcer got it(the mkks, the su-27 deals, release of j-10)
2000-2004, navy got it. now its army's turn. its just how it works.

[Jeff Head]

now its army's turn. its just how it works.

Perhaps so...but to build up all of that infrastructure, technology and capability and then basically stop the funding for eight years seems rather shortsighted to me.

Better to keep funding at a constant rate so you can avoid the lapses and resulting loss of tehcnology and expertise.

We shall see.

[Jeff Head]

Jeff, thanks again

You are welcome. I hope to get newer actual pics of the Varyag on this thread at some point. Seems like there have not been too many lately.

[Jeff Head]

does anyone know what is the PLAN doing with Varyag..we havent heard about that giant carrier for a while now.:nono:

Here are the latest pics I could find. Looks like she is being made ready for something.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-7.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-8.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-9.jpg

[Jeff Head]

Here's another...an overhead shot.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-10.jpg

[PLABUDDY]

Here's another...an overhead shot.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-10.jpg
:china:
Are all PLAN units painted in that color?

If so...then i would be impressed because PLAN is finally constructing a operational aircraft carrier.

[Jeff Head]

:china:
Are all PLAN units painted in that color?

My understanding is, that it is being painted in the official PLAN combatant color. It is more clear on the side photos.

[Jeff Head]

i would be impressed because PLAN is finally constructing a operational aircraft carrier.

I thought you might be interested in seeing these rare photos of several countries aircraft carriers operating together:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/r-11-asturias-DN-ST-92-03624.jpg

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/porteavi/cdg/photo62.jpg

That last one has the French Charles De Gaulle operating with two US Carriers and the HMS Ocean, a helicopter carrier.

[Su-27 Pilot]

My understanding is, that it is being painted in the official PLAN combatant color. It is more clear on the side photos.

So finally it is true. PLAN combatant color means EVERYTHING.

[Jeff Head]

i would be impressed because PLAN is finally constructing a operational aircraft carrier.

Here's what the Japanese are planning to build in the next few years (to go along with their six Osumi Class)...two of them I believe.

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-10-11/815841_001063171.jpg

[adeptitus]

:china:
Are all PLAN units painted in that color?
If so...then i would be impressed because PLAN is finally constructing a operational aircraft carrier.

>_< I wouldn't call it constructing, when the ship itself is purchased from ex-Soviet stock.

[Jeff Head]

So finally it is true. PLAN combatant color means EVERYTHING.

These two pics make it look that way to me.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-11.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-8.jpg

[Su-27 Pilot]

These two pics make it look that way to me.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-11.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-8.jpg

True.

[Jeff Head]

I wouldn't call it constructing, when the ship itself is purchased from ex-Soviet stock.

Okay, agreed. Call it...refurbishing...refitting...however it is called, it is still a large and complex project.

[bd popeye]

Jeff..I trust you ..But those pics look like PS to me. I know that the Charles De Gualle did operate with a Nimitz class. but i don't know about the rest of those ships in the pic. as for the second pic..I just looks to neat to me. ...Probaly PS...

I am not refering to the Varyag pics!

[MIGleader]

Here's what the Japanese are planning to build in the next few years (to go along with their six Osumi Class)...two of them I believe.

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-10-11/815841_001063171.jpg

cant see pic...im assuming the japs arnt building a red x for the navy.
popeye, why would anyone want to ps a eu/us cvbg?

[Jeff Head]

Jeff..I trust you ..But those pics look like PS to me. I know that the Charles De Gualle did operate with a Nimitz class. but i don't know about the rest of those ships in the pic. as for the second pic..I just looks to neat to me. ...Probaly PS.

The one with the Charles de Gaulle was in April of 2002 in operation Enduring Freedom off of Oman. That's the Stennis and Roosevelt I believe. It is genuine.

It is documentd on several siutes devoted to the de Gaulkle, and also HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fleet_5_nations.jpg) - and HERE (http://www.netmarine.net/bat/porteavi/cdg/photos.htm)

Here's another view of the same exercises, but with all five carriers present this time...

http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/4carriers.jpg

The other photo with the Spanish carrier is also real. Here is another view of the same ships:

HERE (http://www.waffenhq.de/schiffe/invincible-klassepics.html)

(Scroll down)

It was a NATO operation in 1991. Given the two angles of the same pic...it appears genuine to me.

[Jeff Head]

Jeff..I trust you ..But those pics look like PS to me.

Alright...too many little red X's for me. I'm hosting them myself!

Here's the second pic of all five carriers together off Oman in 2002 during Enduring Freedom.

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/jeffhead/carriers/Multinational-Carriers2.jpg

And here's that Japanese DDH:

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/jeffhead/carriers/jmsdf-ddh.jpg

[bd popeye]

Ok Jeff! I believe those are real pics. But perhaps a little retouched. That's all. Ok.???

The most carriers I ever actually saw at sea at one time was during Operation Frequent wind in April 1975.

http://www.scarface-usmc.org/1975_the_evacuation.htm

The carriers assembled were..USS Enterprise CVN-65, USS Midway CV-41, USS Coral Sea CV-43, USS Hancock CVA-19. Also there were the USS Okinawa LPH-3 and USS Blue Ridge LCC-19. Plus numerous escorts.I was on the USS Hancock.

The Midway and Hancock were configured as LPH's. The Midway actually had only 8 USAF CH-53 "Jolly Green Giants" on board because the blades did not fold.

Seeing so many ships at sea is an awesome sight.

Someday the PLAN will send to sea a CVBG with substainal force.

[MIGleader]

Ok Jeff! I believe those are real pics. But perhaps a little retouched. That's all. Ok.???

The most carriers I ever actually saw at sea at one time was during Operation Frequent wind in April 1975.

http://www.scarface-usmc.org/1975_the_evacuation.htm

The carriers assembled were..USS Enterprise CVN-65, USS Midway CV-41, USS Coral Sea CV-43, USS Hancock CVA-19. Also there were the USS Okinawa LPH-3 and USS Blue Ridge LCC-19. Plus numerous escorts.

The Midway and Hancock were configured as LPH's. The Midway actually had only 8 USAF CH-53 "Jolly Green Giants" on board because the blades did not fold. I was on the USS Hancock.

Seeing so many ships at see is an awesome sight.

Someday the PLAN will send to sea a CVBG with substainal force.

i do hope when the plan completes its first cvbg in around 2010, it will senf it around on a world tour to show off china;s new blue water navy

[Jeff Head]

The most carriers I ever actually saw at sea at one time was during Operation Frequent wind in April 1975. The carriers assembled were..USS Enterprise CVN-65, USS Midway CV-41, USS Coral Sea CV-43, USS Hancock CVA-19. Also there were the USS Okinawa LPH-3 and USS Blue Ridge LCC-19. Plus numerous escorts..

I would love to have seen that! I wish I had a higher res pic of the five carriers in that last pic. It's pretty amazing too.

Someday the PLAN will send to sea a CVBG with substainal force.

Agreed. Although their training and expertise will still be very lacking, I expect that day to be relatively soon...I would bet they try and put on a show during the Olympics.

[Jeff Head]

i do hope when the plan completes its first cvbg in around 2010, it will senf it around on a world tour to show off china;s new blue water navy

I believe they will try and have something for the 2008 Olympics. They can show off a lot right then to the whole world...and do it in the China Sea.

[MIGleader]

I believe they will try and have something for the 2008 Olympics. They can show off a lot right then to the whole world...and do it in the China Sea.

maybe 08 is a bit early. the varyag may be juzt finished by then. perhaps the world fair is a better chance to show it off.

[Jeff Head]

maybe 08 is a bit early. the varyag may be juzt finished by then.

Over two more years. I believe they have enough time.

I bet if they can have it out showing off, the PLAN will. Either way, when it is completed, and the initial shake down and training is completed too, of course they will do a lot of port visits and show it and its escorts off.

[Sczepan]

These two pics make it look that way to me.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-11.jpg

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-CVVaryag-8.jpgis it just me - or was the lift back of the island moved ?

[Jeff Head]

is it just me - or was the lift back of the island moved ?

The one aft the island is now down, so it has been moved to that position...but otherwise looks to be in the normal position. The one fore of the island is up.

[bd popeye]

is it just me - or was the lift back of the island moved ?

It looks like it is in the up position to me. Look at both pics guys. Look at the aera by the aft(rear) lift(Elevator). Some sort of re-configutrtion seems to be going on there. What do the rest of you think? Anybody know how old these pics are? I've been seeing them on the web for about 3 months.

I don't know why some of you are calling the aircraft elevator a "lift". It's an elevator. On USN CV's they are refered to as "El's". Oh well:o to each his own. Wait a minute. I know the Brits call elevators lifts. Maybe that's it.:confused:

[Sczepan]

The one aft the island is now down, so it has been moved to that position...but otherwise looks to be in the normal position. The one fore of the island is up.so the elevators ar in work, which means, there ar engines and power to move them - and this is not a need to be done by an amuesement carrier, the big elevators ar only needed to lift (recurrence) big engines, helos, planes ... ;)

[Jeff Head]

so the elevators ar in work, which means, there ar engines and power to move them.

Well...it could mean that...and after over two years it would be possible.

But it may be more likely at this point that auxillary power, either indirectly on the ship, or completely off the ship, is moving those elevators.

[Sczepan]

as I know, the Varjag - 2 years ago - was a hull to be scrapped. To make the engines of elevators run was expansive, and not needed by a amuesement ship. These investments is only need for recurrence using.

[Jeff Head]

as I know, the Varjag - 2 years ago - was a hull to be scrapped. These investments is only need for recurrence using.

I agree.

[MIGleader]

as I know, the Varjag - 2 years ago - was a hull to be scrapped. To make the engines of elevators run was expansive, and not needed by a amuesement ship. These investments is only need for recurrence using.

or a hull that was supposed to be scrapped, but it never happened

[Jeff Head]

or a hull that was supposed to be scrapped

I don't believe it was ever intended to be scrapped or made into a casino.

Sort of like that Japanese DDH designation...that's what it took to get it over to the PRC.

[MIGleader]

I don't believe it was ever intended to be scrapped or made into a casino.

Sort of like that Japanese DDH designation...that's what it took to get it over to the PRC.

the chinese went through alot of effort to buy and get varyag to dalian. i dont think they would waste it as a training vessel or museum

[Jeff Head]

the chinese went through alot of effort to buy and get varyag to dalian. i dont think they would waste it as a training vessel or museum

I agree...although, to a certain extent, it will begin its new life with the PLAN as a training vessel. Since they have no aircraft carrier experience, by default, they will spend several years training with it.

[PLABUDDY]

I agree...although, to a certain extent, it will begin its noew life with the PLAN as a training vessel. Since they have no aircraft carrier experience, by default, they will spend several years training with it.
How long by your estimation do u think the PLAN will use Varyag as a training ship?

[Jeff Head]

How long by your estimation do u think the PLAN will use Varyag as a training ship?

It will take years before the PLAN is truly proficient at carrier operations...in that sense, it will alwyas be training.

I believe the Varyag is an intitial, bridging step for the PLAN. A strong step because the Varyag is a big, very capable ship. They will use the Varyag to get the experience and expertise, while showing the flag with it (using it politically) and as a latent threat to other, smaller nations to not fool around with the PRC.

In the mean time, newer, indegenous carriers will probably be developed so that when they come out, the PLAN will have just that much more experience to begin with and can use them more effectively.

[PLABUDDY]

Do u guys think that russia would sell China the blue-print of the cancelled Ulyanovsk-class carrier?:china:

[Su-27 Pilot]

the chinese went through alot of effort to buy and get varyag to dalian. i dont think they would waste it as a training vessel or museum

Or a sightseeing spot !!

[PLABUDDY]

Or a sightseeing spot !!
no way! no country would do that...anyways do u guys think that russia would sell China the blue-print of the cancelled Ulyanovsk-class carrier?

[MIGleader]

no way! no country would do that...anyways do u guys think that russia would sell China the blue-print of the cancelled Ulyanovsk-class carrier?

well, they might, seeing how the russians can potentially offer dozens of engine, weapons, aircraft, adviser, etc deals for such carrier. that would be worth billions of dollars. the russian might even get the chinese to let the ship be built in a russian ship yard(like gorshkov).
but im not sure if china ready or interested in opereating such a carrier. that would be like jumping from no carrier to a nimitz. plus, construction would take at least 7-8 years. better off with the 70% complete vessel.

[PLABUDDY]

well, they might, seeing how the russians can potentially offer dozens of engine, weapons, aircraft, adviser, etc deals for such carrier. that would be worth billions of dollars. the russian might even get the chinese to let the ship be built in a russian ship yard(like gorshkov).
but im not sure if china ready or interested in opereating such a carrier. that would be like jumping from no carrier to a nimitz. plus, construction would take at least 7-8 years. better off with the 70% complete vessel.

I agree..but what i'm saying is that do u think PLAN would approach Russia for the cancelled Ulyanovsk-class carrier after they finish Varyag and gets a hang of how to properly operate a carrier?

[MIGleader]

I agree..but what i'm saying is that do u think PLAN would approach Russia for the cancelled Ulyanovsk-class carrier after they finish Varyag and gets a hang of how to properly operate a carrier?

i think its best if the plan lays off russian designs and go builds its own carrier. its not good for national pride if the plan has too many russian ships.

[PLABUDDY]

i think its best if the plan lays off russian designs and go builds its own carrier. its not good for national pride if the plan has too many russian ships.
Well PLAN has no experience with constructing and operating a carrier. Therefore they will have to follow Russian designs for a long while because Europeans are not likely to be helping China out. Plus if i were to go acquire a carrier for PLAN, i would go for the Ulyanovsk-class carrier because of its size and armor. What do u guys think?:china:

[MIGleader]

Well PLAN has no experience with constructing and operating a carrier. Therefore they will have to follow Russian designs for a long while because Europeans are not likely to be helping China out. Plus if i were to go acquire a carrier for PLAN, i would go for the Ulyanovsk-class carrier because of its size and armor. What do u guys think?:china:

in the 90s, both the spanish and french offered to build/sell carriers to china.
what would a heavy carrier do for china? not much. stick wit the vesatile mutirole light carriers.

[PLABUDDY]

in the 90s, both the spanish and french offered to build/sell carriers to china.
what would a heavy carrier do for china? not much. stick wit the vesatile mutirole light carriers.

what would a heavy carrier do for china? well at lease it would be very useful in a conflict with Taiwan and other South China Sea nations. A Ulyanovsk-class carrier carries 70 aircrafts. So let's say when it comes to a battle with vietnam, a battle group with one Ulyanovsk can take the whole Vietnamese battle fleet on.:china:

We may not see much of a use for a heavy carrier now but we will when the PLAN get one and uses it properly.:china:

[Sczepan]

what would a heavy carrier do for china? well at lease it would be very useful in a conflict with Taiwan and other South China Sea nations. ..
the PLA don_t need carriers in a conflict with Taiwan, the "battlefield Taiwan" is near the mainland, so the plan could use land based planes in this area without problems;
only amphibious or helo carriers could be usefull, because the distance is to long to be crossed by helos in a battle (max. range of WZ-11 or SA 342L Gazelle = arround 600 km, speed of (W) Z-9 is arround 300 km, compare it to the distance mainland-taiwan ... no way to use them on taiwanese grounds)

in a conflict with other South China Sea nations .... hmm .... some of them have airfields in a lot of the so called "Spratley-Islands", including Taiwan, and Thailand operate a carrier there (inclusive VTOL-planes if they ar operational ....) - but a amphibious carrier, carriing light attack fighters like the L 15 or JL-9 (FTC-2000 Mountain Eagle (ShanYing)) would be enough to reconcile them - and as I know, the relations between China and the ASEAN states continuing in a friendly way, so the conflicts in the South China Sea could be loosen in a politcal way.

A true "blue water navy" needs carriers out of home waters, to protect trade lines (I think, for example, about the arabian and african petrol), and to protect a convoi in dangerous waters all carriers, helo-, amphibious-, escort-, jeep- and aircraft carriers are very useful, also 4 power projection, international aid and UN-Intervention operations ....

[Gauntlet]

Okey, sorry for this question:

On those pics posted in the last couple of pages, showing the Varyag in Dalian. You were talking about the ship beeing painted...are you talking about the redish color on the island? And in that case, isnt it possible they only did that because of propaganda purposes?

[PLABUDDY]

Okey, sorry for this question:

On those pics posted in the last couple of pages, showing the Varyag in Dalian. You were talking about the ship beeing painted...are you talking about the redish color on the island? And in that case, isnt it possible they only did that because of propaganda purposes?
no i don't think so. If they are going to do it just for propaganda purpose they wouldn't need 3 years to do so and raise so many questions. I still think that Varyag is going to be a new unit in the PLAN.:china:

[Gollevainen]

well when talking about painting, they meant the Hull painting. The red painting in Varyag's superstructures is same as in any chinese warships superstructures when being build, which indicates that something is done to her.

[PLABUDDY]

well when talking about painting, they meant the Hull painting. The red painting in Varyag's superstructures is same as in any chinese warships superstructures when being build, which indicates that something is done to her.
like what?

[Gollevainen]

like what?

....instaling rulet boards, one-arm pirats, poker tables...and couple black gammon players...;)

[bd popeye]

....instaling rulet boards, one-arm pirats, poker tables...and couple black gammon players...
11 Minutes Ago 02:05 PM

Very funny!:roll: Hey I thought there were no one line responses allowed??

On those pics posted in the last couple of pages, showing the Varyag in Dalian. You were talking about the ship beeing painted...are you talking about the redish color on the island? And in that case, isnt it possible they only did that because of propaganda purposes?

In answer to this question. The red color paint is probaly just a "primer" paint. Which is used to prepare the surface to be painted. The USN uses a similar color paint called "red lead". To me thei sland has not been painted because structure is waiting for installation of electronic equipment. Radars and assosiated equipment.

[Gauntlet]

In answer to this question. The red color paint is probaly just a "primer" paint. Which is used to prepare the surface to be painted. The USN uses a similar color paint called "red lead". To me thei sland has not been painted because structure is waiting for installation of electronic equipment. Radars and assosiated equipment.Hmmm...and that makes me wonder. If they are preparing a sailable carrier, how come we havent heard jacked shit about them purchasing Flanker-Ds or navalizing local planes...?

well when talking about painting, they meant the Hull painting.Would you go as far as saying the hull itself is all finished with its paint job?

[MIGleader]

Hmmm...and that makes me wonder. If they are preparing a sailable carrier, how come we havent heard jacked shit about them purchasing Flanker-Ds or navalizing local planes...?

Would you go as far as saying the hull itself is all finished with its paint job?

we havbe heard plnety of shit about the pplanes(and seen a few nice fake pics). models with su-33s on them have been constructed. j-10c??

[Gauntlet]

we havbe heard plnety of shit about the pplanes(and seen a few nice fake pics). models with su-33s on them have been constructed. j-10c??
Aint all that just rumors?

Have any officials confirmed it? Any inteligence reports mentioning it?

[MIGleader]

Aint all that just rumors?

Have any officials confirmed it? Any inteligence reports mentioning it?

there is a reason why the carrier project is shrouded in secrecy. if we knew, so would many sources on the internet.

[Gauntlet]

exactly. But I am pretty sure an sale of Fulcrum-Ds or Flanker-Ds from Russia would have been pretty official.

Meaning if they do have carrier planes ready, it must be localy modified J-10s or J-11s. This would again mean that they have done the whole modification alone, without any real experience of building carrier based aircrafts.

I think they will go for Russian built planes.

[bd popeye]

exactly. But I am pretty sure an sale of Fulcrum-Ds or Flanker-Ds from Russia would have been pretty official.

Meaning if they do have carrier planes ready, it must be localy modified J-10s or J-11s. This would again mean that they have done the whole modification alone, without any real experience of building carrier based aircrafts.

I think they will go for Russian built planes.

I agree. Some sort of super secrect deal could have been made. Who knows for sure? Hell..we don't even know if the Varyag is going to be a CV. Personally I think it will. I think it will be armed with MIG-29's just like the upcomming IN CV.

[B]BUT[B] if the PLAN hhas developed some sort of CV based J-10 variant. Wow! that would be big news.

[Sea Dog]

bd Popeye, you seem like a very knowledgeable guy. Just out of curiousity, do you think that the PLAN will indeed develop the Varyag as their first carrier, or do you believe they'll learn as much as they can from it and design their own?

I'd like to see your opinion on the matter.

[bd popeye]

bd Popeye, you seem like a very knowledgeable guy. Just out of curiousity, do you think that the PLAN will indeed develop the Varyag as their first carrier, or do you believe they'll learn as much as they can from it and design their own?

I'd like to see your opinion on the matter.

Thank you.

I do indeed think it will be the first PLAN CV. I think the PLAN has pilots in training..somewhere to fly MIG-29's for the Varyag airwing. The PRC is such a serrective society we will not really know what happens until it does.

I think at first the PLAN will of course operate the ship in a training mode. And in about 2 years it will be operational with a mix of MIG-29's and ASW?SAR helos.

Eventually the PLAN will design there own CV. Afterlal they have owned 3 Russian CV's and one Austrailaian one ..the Melbourne. Thsi may not take place for several years. But I do indeed think it will happen.

[MIGleader]

Thank you.

I do indeed think it will be the first PLAN CV. I think the PLAN has pilots in training..somewhere to fly MIG-29's for the Varyag airwing. The PRC is such a serrective society we will not really know what happens until it does.

I think at first the PLAN will of course operate the ship in a training mode. And in about 2 years it will be operational with a mix of MIG-29's and ASW?SAR helos.

Eventually the PLAN will design there own CV. Afterlal they have owned 3 Russian CV's and one Austrailaian one ..the Melbourne. Thsi may not take place for several years. But I do indeed think it will happen.

nah...the plan doesnt own any of these ships. the varyag belongs to the macao casino company that bought it, the kiev carriers are amusement parks, and the melborne doesnt exist anymore.

i think the plan might go for a mix of mainly mig-29s for air cover, and some su-33s for strike. helixes definitly

[Sea Dog]

it will be operational with a mix of MIG-29's and ASW?SAR helos.


Do you think that Russia would be willing to sell the PLAN Su-33's? I'm not sure they would. I more see Mig-29's in the mix like you do. Do you know if the Su-30's could be navalized? Like MIGleader says, I think helixes (as ASW) will be part of their compliment. What's your opinion on which helo will be providing ASW support, popeye?

[Gauntlet]

I think they will pretty much follow the Russian model.
Helix-A for ASW, Helix-D for SAR and Helix-E for AEW.

Since these choppers share much of their structure, it would be a smart move and the logistics wouldnt be too hard.

[PLABUDDY]

I agree. Some sort of super secrect deal could have been made. Who knows for sure? Hell..we don't even know if the Varyag is going to be a CV. Personally I think it will. I think it will be armed with MIG-29's just like the upcomming IN CV.

[B]BUT[B] if the PLAN hhas developed some sort of CV based J-10 variant. Wow! that would be big news.

One question though, why do u think that some kind of secret purchase of flankers have been made? Also do u think China would eventually go for the cancelled Ulyanovsk aircraft carrier or would they do that within 6/7 years after they finish Varyag?:china:

[Jeff Head]

do u think China would eventually go for the cancelled Ulyanovsk aircraft carrier or would they do that within 6/7 years after they finish Varyag?:china:

I believe the PLAN may have already started (somewhere) their first carrier. Probably just cutting initial steel at this point, no keel laid...but I believe we will see it taking shape in some shipyard within the next couple of years.

Also, just as a resource, you can find nice pics of every aircraft carrier existing on earth today at the following link:

http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/wwaclogo.jpg (http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/index.htm)

The site also has links to each carrier's home page (when available) from their native country.

The site has a domain... www.worldwideaircraftcarriers.com ... that might not be up yet.

[Sczepan]

....To me thei sland has not been painted because structure is waiting for installation of electronic equipment. Radars and assosiated equipment.I agree - sounds logical, the hull was in dry dock to be paintet in a view day, the island could wait for finishing the installation of some equipment;

but why do jou think that MIG 29 could be used by a chinese carrier?

Russia desided to use the SU on Varjags sistership, only India will use the MiG - there new carrier is smaller, so probalbly they cant use the SU; the Mig will have more short starting capabilitiy, but the range is also much smaller as with the SU.
I prefer the SU - the SU 30 MK 2 is used by PLANAF UI unit, the Su-27SK/UBK by Flight Test & Training Centre Cangzhou, Hebei Beijing - and the J-11 could get indigenious chinese carrier-equipping, like folding wings and the arrestor-hook; there is also no much change from SU 27/SU 30 to the russian carrier-variant SU-33
http://www.russavia.hotbox.ru/Res/Gallery/Su-33.jpg
I also think, indegenious chinese fighters like the J-10 and trainers like the L-15 could be prepared for carrier-operations. If the PLAN is going to operate carriers - and thats what most of people her thinking - they offcourse would prepare there own new aircrafts to be used there.

[PLABUDDY]

I believe the PLAN may have already started (somewhere) their first carrier. Probably just cutting initial steel at this point, no keel laid...but I believe we will see it taking shape in some shipyard within the next couple of years.

Also, just as a resource, you can find nice pics of every aircraft carrier existing on earth today at the following link:

http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/wwaclogo.jpg (http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/index.htm)

The site also has links to each carrier's home page (when available) from their native country.

The site has a domain... www.worldwideaircraftcarriers.com ... that might not be up yet.

Thank you Jeff. I like your web site.

I still think that China would propably go for the calcelled Ulyanovsk-class carrier. May be not right away but i still think they will or at lease purchase the blue print. And i believe this may take place before China build a carrier completely on it's own. What do u guys think.:china:

[Jeff Head]

Thank you Jeff. I like your web site.

I still think that China would propably go for the calcelled Ulyanovsk-class carrier. What do u guys think.:china:

Thanks. I made that site for a resource for everyone and will keep it up to date. It is amazing how many nations have already got at least one carrier (even Thailand)...and how many are starting to build large deck LPH style ships.

As to the PLAN carrier, the Russians certainly had a good start on that project and it would certainly help their development and build time to adopt it. You may be right.

Particularly if the PLAN commissions the Varyag...they will be fairly tight and committed to the Russian technology at that point and it would all come together for them. We shall see. Who knows...maybe the first metal they cut is for the Ulyanovsk class!

[MIGleader]

I agree - sounds logical, the hull was in dry dock to be paintet in a view day, the island could wait for finishing the installation of some equipment;

but why do jou think that MIG 29 could be used by a chinese carrier?

Russia desided to use the SU on Varjags sistership, only India will use the MiG - there new carrier is smaller, so probalbly they cant use the SU; the Mig will have more short starting capabilitiy, but the range is also much smaller as with the SU.
I prefer the SU - the SU 30 MK 2 is used by PLANAF UI unit, the Su-27SK/UBK by Flight Test & Training Centre Cangzhou, Hebei Beijing - and the J-11 could get indigenious chinese carrier-equipping, like folding wings and the arrestor-hook; there is also no much change from SU 27/SU 30 to the russian carrier-variant SU-33

I also think, indegenious chinese fighters like the J-10 and trainers like the L-15 could be prepared for carrier-operations. If the PLAN is going to operate carriers - and thats what most of people her thinking - they offcourse would prepare there own new aircrafts to be used there.

well, when kutnesov was first designed, the russians planned to fit a mix of mig 29s and su-33s. but later, financial problems and political reasons made the drop the migs.

obviously, the varyag must be first used as a training carrier, and after 2-3 years, she will become operation for military operations. certan counries like brazil, india, and thailand have carriers for little more than bragging rights. if china wants a blue water navy, it needs a carreir.

awsome site jeff.

[Jeff Head]

well, when kutnesov was first designed, the russians planned to fit a mix of mig 29s and su-33s. but later, financial problems and political reasons made the drop the migs.

awsome site jeff.

Thanks. I just added some links on that site, including one to this forum.

As to the Migs, it is clear that originally the Soviets werre planning a fairly diverse and mixed airwing, including the Migs. I believe the Russians were also going to use the SU-25 Frogfoot (sort of the Russian equivalent of the A-10) as an attack aircraft off of her too. In fact, I believe they still have a t least one squardron of them in their naval air arm.

They also had plans for a prop driven AEW aircraft.

All of that dropped because of finances. Aircraft carriers and their operations are expensive. Only the richest of nations can operate several of them, with full air wings, effectively.

[Sczepan]

...
awsome site jeff. I agree,
and I have a (sorry for off topic) question:
I wrote some articles at http://www.globaldefence.net/ - a german non profit site, for example
http://www.globaldefence.net/index.htm?http://www.globaldefence.net/deutsch/asien/china/dossier.htm

http://systeme.globaldefence.net/content/view/8/36/

http://www.globaldefence.net/index.htm?http://www.globaldefence.net/deutsch/asien/china/raumfahrt.htm

http://systeme.globaldefence.net/content/view/3/26/

I am looking for new pix and cooperaton partnership - are you interested?
(of course, the same question to gollevainen)

[Gollevainen]

what sort of partnership are you thinking?

[Jeff Head]

exactly. But I am pretty sure an sale of Fulcrum-Ds or Flanker-Ds from Russia would have been pretty official.

Meaning if they do have carrier planes ready, it must be localy modified J-10s or J-11s. This would again mean that they have done the whole modification alone, without any real experience of building carrier based aircrafts.

I think they will go for Russian built planes.

I remember reading that the PLAN had some aircraft (SU-27s and maybe others) practicing on a land based carrier deck that was fashioned after the Melbourne deck I believe. Some time ago.

[Gauntlet]

As to the Migs, it is clear that originally the Soviets werre planning a fairly diverse and mixed airwing, including the Migs. I believe the Russians were also going to use the SU-25 Frogfoot (sort of the Russian equivalent of the A-10) as an attack aircraft off of her too. In fact, I believe they still have a t least one squardron of them in their naval air arm.The naval Frogfoots (Su-25UTGs) were just built as trainers. They were unable to operate a fully laden Su-25 (armament pluss enough fuel to give it a decent range) of the carrier's deck.
10 UTGs were built, 5 for Ukraine, and 5 for Russia. Russia lost one of them in a training accident, and does now only have 4 (last time I checked, the Bort numbers were "8", "11", "14" and "16". All of them (with the Flanker-Ds and UBs) operate from an airfield just east of Severmorsk called "Malyavr".

Due to bad visibility for the rear seat instructor on the UTG, the Russian Fleet Air Arm decided to built Su-27KUB/Su-33UB as new primary trainer (and later plans, strike aircraft) for the Su-33 pilots. It features a side-by side cockpit which were though to be the best for both trainee and instructor. 3 prototypes were probarly built, with only one flying. Bort number "21".

They also had plans for a prop driven AEW aircraft.That would be the Yak-44. A russian look a like of the E-2C Hawkeye. After the initial plan of using An-71 Madcaps are carrier-born aircraft they tried designing the Yak-44, but unfortunatly, I dont belive it left the drawingboard.


Oh, and btw...LOVELY SITE! :)

PS: once again, if you have a slightest interest in the Kuznetsov carrier and its airwing, I suggest you download the rar file I packed full of pictures related to it. http://www.sendmefile.com/00117686

[Jeff Head]

The naval Frogfoots (Su-25UTGs) were just built as trainers. That would be the Yak-44. A russian look a like of the E-2C Hawkeye. After the initial plan of using An-71 Madcaps are carrier-born aircraft they tried designing the Yak-44, but unfortunatly, I dont belive it left the drawingboard.

When it all bolis down to it, the USSR and now the Russians just do not have the resource...the money...to do all that was necessary to develop full blown carriers with a full blown, diverse wing of aircraft. I believe the PRC, because it is cash rich right now, will be able to invest the resources to do it...but it will take a lot of time.

Just look at the diversity, even on todays US aircraft carriers...the Hawkeye, the Prowlers, the Hornets, the Vikings, (are any of them left abooard?), the Seahawks. They all play together and play pivotal roles. Without any of them, the capaility is just so much reduced.

Oh, and btw...LOVELY SITE! :)

Thanks...I hope people find it useful. I will download that tar file and check it out. Thanks.

[Gauntlet]

When it all bolis down to it, the USSR and now the Russians just do not have the resource...the money...to do all that was necessary to develop full blown carriers with a full blown, diverse wing of aircraft. I believe the PRC, because it is cash rich right now, will be able to invest the resources to do it...but it will take a lot of time.Yeah. Well, the biggest problem with the Varyag would probarly be the lack of hangar space enough to operate a full mixed fixed wing airwing. I mean, even the Kuznetsov dont have room for 2 full squadrons of Flanker-Ds.

But then again, what if the Varyag is beeing modified to remove the Shipwreck launchers, and extend the hangar deck all the way up front. IMO, that would be an abselutly genious modification, allowing the Varyag to opereate a large and possibly varied airwing.

Just look at the diversity, even on todays US aircraft carriers...the Hawkeye, the Prowlers, the Hornets, the Vikings, (are any of them left abooard?), the Seahawks. They all play together and play pivotal roles. Without any of them, the capaility is just so much reduced.

I belive the Viking would be all phased out of carrier service by 2008 or '09. Its ASW role is taken over by the Seahawk, and tanker role by buddy-to-buddy refueling F-18s, as you probarly know.

[Jeff Head]

I belive the Viking would be all phased out of carrier service by 2008 or '09. Its ASW role is taken over by the Seahawk, and tanker role by buddy-to-buddy refueling F-18s, as you probarly know.

I still think it a mistake to get rid of the Vikings. They have long legs, can carry a LOT more ordinance, and are packed with a BUNCH of electronics. A slightly smaller P-3. Maybe the V-22 will be modified for that role.

The Seahwaks are great...they just aren't a Viking.

[Su-27 Pilot]

J-11 for carriers ?? I think J-11 plus Su-33s from Russia with folding wings will be a good bet.

[Jeff Head]

J-11 for carriers ?? I think J-11 plus Su-33s from Russia with folding wings will be a good bet.

I agree. I believe the PLAN and the PRC is capable of making the same type of conversions to their SU-27's or J-11' that the Russians made to theirs to produce the SU-33. I think it is likely they wioll do so when the time comes, if they haven's started already.

[Sea Dog]

I agree. I believe the PLAN and the PRC is capable of making the same type of conversions to their SU-27's or J-11' that the Russians made to theirs to produce the SU-33. I think it is likely they wioll do so when the time comes, if they haven's started already.

Perhaps they could. I wonder if Russia would just sell them the SU-33's outright. I doubt they would, but I'm sure the PLAN could upgrade their own Sukhoi's to be navalized and carrier capable. I really like the Su-30 MKK's and wonder if they can be navalized in this way.:confused:

[Jeff Head]

I really like the Su-30 MKK's and wonder if they can be navalized in this way.:confused: I believe they can. I would not be surprised at all to learn that the PLAN had already coverted some...and is just not showing them yet. That's something they could do (unlike a major purchase from the Russians) which could be done relatively quietly without a lot of fanfare.

Then one day...they show up in the same week that the Varyag surprises the world by sailing out of harbor under its own steam.

[bd popeye]

Then one day...they show up in the same week that the Varyag surprises the world by sailing out of harbor under its own steam

That day is comming. Imangine the discussion in this forum the day it finally happens? Some here would have the PRC conquering the world with it.

But that's OK. I look foward the day the PLAN CV goes to sea..

As for the aircraft of the "mystic" PLAN CV. I think it will be MIG29's. Why? Because Russia is selling them to India. The production has already started. If there was any other variant of a J-10, Su-33, Su-27 or any other aircraft being "navalized" we would have seen some real pics by now. Or even some "PS" pics.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Perhaps they could. I wonder if Russia would just sell them the SU-33's outright. I doubt they would, but I'm sure the PLAN could upgrade their own Sukhoi's to be navalized and carrier capable. I really like the Su-30 MKK's and wonder if they can be navalized in this way.:confused:

Su-30 MKKs are heavy fighter-bombers, and the PLAN wants more of a Fighter/Anti-ship roles than a Fighter-bomber. I believe the Su-30 Mkks are more useful in Air force services. Su-33s are made for Naval battles.

[Jeff Head]

That day is comming. Imangine the discussion in this forum the day it finally happens? Some here would have the PRC conquering the world with it. But that's OK. I look foward the day the PLAN CV goes to sea. I agree. It will be mighty interesting and is apt to make a lot of folks here very happy, and surprise a lot of western analysts.
As for the aircraft of the "mystic" PLAN CV. I think it will be MIG29's. If there was any other variant of a J-10, Su-33, Su-27 or any other aircraft being "navalized" we would have seen some real pics by now. Or even some "PS" pics. Unless the PLAN was doing it themselves and not "buying" it from the Russinas. If they were converting, say 25 of their own SU-27s or SU-30s...or even better, of their own license built J-11s, to an SU-33-like variant on their own (and I believe they are capable of doing so), then they could keep THTA very quiet indeed.

Just my opinion.

[Jeff Head]

Su-30 MKKs are heavy fighter-bombers, and the PLAN wants more of a Fighter/Anti-ship roles than a Fighter-bomber. I believe the Su-30 Mkks are more useful in Air force services. Su-33s are made for Naval battles. The PLAN is perfectly capable of taking a Chinese SU-27, SU-30, or (more likely) their own license built J11s, and converting them to an SU-33-like aircraft for use on a carrier.

I expect that is what they may do...but that is just my opinion.

[Su-27 Pilot]

The PLAN is perfectly capable of taking a Chinese SU-27, SU-30, or (more likely) their own license built J11s, and converting them to an SU-33-like aircraft for use on a carrier.

I expect that is what they may do...but that is just my opinion.

I thought J-11 payloads are pretty weak compared to Su-27s and Su-30s

[MIGleader]

I thought J-11 payloads are pretty weak compared to Su-27s and Su-30s

nope. it has 10 hardpoints. most likely, sukoi will try to market china an upgrade kit similar to the skm for china to upograde its j-11s

[Jeff Head]

I thought J-11 payloads are pretty weak compared to Su-27s and Su-30s I think it has pretty good payload capability and would not be surprised if the PLAN converts a few on their own to an SU-33-like configuration. It would make a lot of sense.

[Jeff Head]

nope. it has 10 hardpoints. most likely, sukoi will try to market china an upgrade k