the best intelligence agency in the world??

[militaryguy]

Hey guys,
Which intelligence agency do you think is the best in the world? Why do you think that what you choose is the best?

Israel Mossad
U.S CIA
Russia KGB ( now KSB )
British MI 6


Welcome your opinions and reasoning for it !!!

[wdl1976]

Hmmm tricky question.

I would say the best inteligence agency should be the one we rarely heard of but effected all of us. I should say in the 80s-90s it would be the Chinese inteligence community as we never heard of them but lately we found out that they were extremely active.

Now? probably the Indians

Inteligence is supposedly be accurate, discreet and low profile

[militaryguy]

Hmmm tricky question.

I would say the best inteligence agency should be the one we rarely heard of but effected all of us. I should say in the 80s-90s it would be the Chinese inteligence community as we never heard of them but lately we found out that they were extremely active.

Now? probably the Indians

Inteligence is supposedly be accurate, discreet and low profile

WHy do you think that Chinese intelligence community was the best ? How did they effect all of us? How come Indians are the best right now?

[Finn McCool]

I think that the Chinese are very skilled in intelligence; I've heard that they have penetrated the ROC pretty well. A few months ago some ROC agents were arrested in China (or Vietnam? ) and they suspected that it was because of a Chinese agent in the ROC's intelligence. They also have gotten into the US pretty well too but haven't (as far as we know) had much success in getting anything long-term going.

The Israelis certainly have a good reputation but that might be a bad thing. The Russians are certainly very very experienced and usually outsmarted the CIA during the Cold War days, although both sides had many victories. I certainly don't have a very high opinion of the CIA although I would like to join.

[Sea Dog]

The Israelis certainly have a good reputation but that might be a bad thing. The Russians are certainly very very experienced and usually outsmarted the CIA during the Cold War days, although both sides had many victories. I certainly don't have a very high opinion of the CIA although I would like to join.

CIA certainly needs reform as it's been a political tool for too long. They are definitely not the best out there. I would say the best for actual intelligence gathering and analysis (making use of pertinent information) as either the Isreali Mossad, or the U.S.'s DIA. DIA is the highly effective wing of the U.S.'s intelligence community. MI6 is up there as well.

[crobato]

I remember there was an article before. The FBI listed what is the most effective espionage unit in the world, and number one in the list is a Chinese organization known only as "007" (no joking on the name), ahead of Mossad and all the other groups.

[Sea Dog]

I remember there was an article before. The FBI listed what is the most effective espionage unit in the world, and number one in the list is a Chinese organization known only as "007" (no joking on the name), ahead of Mossad and all the other groups.

China's intelligence efforts are rather unusual. They are pretty open about things in their collection methods. They foster relationships, and build bridges with friendships. This way they attempt to collect alot of small pieces of information. And the end result is to put alot of these small pieces together to build a bigger picture. I've read similar things from FBI open sources. This way to go about intelligence takes alot of time and is manpower intensive.

[AssassinsMace]

It depends on what kind of intelligence. The West is great in all the big hardware, i.e. Echelon, but not so good when it comes to people out in the field in non-Western countries. Anyone can buy there way into getting information.

Look at Iraq. There are only six people out of a thousand in the US embassy who speak Arabic fluently? I've read in the CIA it's a worse situation. The FBI had only one and I think that guy got fired for being a whistle-blower. Someone certainly dropped the ball. Either because of the lack of forseeable vision of what resources are needed and/or plain simple prejudice. The movie, "The Good Shepard," shows how the birth of the CIA started by recruiting upper class US citizens from well-off families as agents because it was thought they had more to lose from foreign competitors so they would end up being more loyal in the end. Supposedly in China, the joke is US "spies" are easy to spot because they're never anything "Chinese." Added to that reports that Chinese language fluency is lacking too in the intelligence services.

Ever see the Frontline documentary, "From China with Love?" You watch that and it says the CIA and the FBI are frustrated and have no direct intelligence regarding China.

[Sea Dog]

Ever see the Frontline documentary, "From China with Love?" You watch that and it says the CIA and the FBI are frustrated and have no direct intelligence regarding China.

I don't think you're ever going to get the real story from fictional movies or TV documentaries. The intel community in all nations are a totally different entity than anything out there. All nations in the west spend ungodly amounts of dough on all kinds of intelligence gathering, intelligence analysis, and intelligence dissemination. Based upon how many westerners are conducting business in China, you'd be foolish not think that some of them are gathering information for many intelligence agencies for different Western nations around the world, including the USA. China is actually an easy counterintelligence target due to the fact that they are so hungry for any type of technical info they can get their hands on.

Whether or not the USA is actually exploiting this is somehting that will be an unknown. I definitely think it's happening myself. It goes without saying that China appears to be aggressive in their intelligence gathering.

[AssassinsMace]

I don't think you're ever going to get the real story from fictional movies or TV documentaries. The intel community in all nations are a totally different entity than anything out there. All nations in the west spend ungodly amounts of dough on all kinds of intelligence gathering, intelligence analysis, and intelligence dissemination. Based upon how many westerners are conducting business in China, you'd be foolish not think that some of them are gathering information for many intelligence agencies for different Western nations around the world, including the USA. China is actually an easy counterintelligence target due to the fact that they are so hungry for any type of technical info they can get their hands on.

Whether or not the USA is actually exploiting this is somehting that will be an unknown. I definitely think it's happening myself. It goes without saying that China appears to be aggressive in their intelligence gathering.

Ironic because people do tend to look at the spygame as if it were like the movies when in actuality it's really more about people examining data. I don't think the US has many, most probably no spies in sensitive positions in China. Where would they be? If these Westerners were in China in "disguise" as employees or tourists... that's what I was talking about how it's a joke. They stick out like a sore thumb. You think they can walk in inconspicuously anywhere? The government would certainly keep its distance from domestic companies that have foreign employees which is not many in the first place. And how would they embed an agent with a ficticious background in the government? Now that's Hollywood! Really, if there's a problem with finding Chinese language fluent employees in the CIA and the FBI, how many of them look or are in fact Chinese and will choose and make it to the field? That's why most likely the US has no spies in sensitive areas in China. Ergo, why US intelligence on China is so bad.

US intelligence agents out in the field are more about paying people off for intelligence which can be highly unreliable and questionable in the first place but the safest route if you're paranoid which is a part of the spygame culture. Tom Clancy even said it was more about sitting behind a desk in Langley than agents in the field.

[wdl1976]

WHy do you think that Chinese intelligence community was the best ? How did they effect all of us? How come Indians are the best right now?

Easy the best because we don't hear a lot about them. But lately we know that they stole technologies, surpress Fa lun gong movement all over the world. That is what is known, further to it commercial inteligence gathering, military inteligence gathering etc etc. If we have not heard Chinese agents murdered someone with radio active capsule does not mean they are not effective and not high tech. They probably resort to some other means that the world does not notice. And again inteligence gathering is not as what we see in the movie (thanks assasin mace) the more we heard about an inteligence agency in the move, the worst they are. What they do is supposedly discreet and unknown by anyone, even to their own people. (What the left hand does the right hand does not need to know) But lately we know Chinese operative are everywhere, their member are not just "James Bonds" but tourist, student, worker etc etc.


How they effected our life? easy where do you live? Do you buy Chinese produced goods? Does your company tries to enter to the Chinese market? Does 3rd world country have become more independent from Western power? (I can go on) Do you think China is where they are now just by pulling policy out of thin air? If you worked in a company you know the management takes action based on reports graph field report etc etc to make correct decision. Who made these reports?

The reason they are not the best now is simple, a lot of the networks been uncovered. A lot of the activity is exposed. They are still good but not the best anymore.

That is the base of my opinion

[Spike]

Honestly the Mossad deserves its reputation. They work under the greatest sustained pressure and threat level that they have to be on their toes, or else their country probably wouldn't exist anymore.

[rrrtx]

Ironic because people do tend to look at the spygame as if it were like the movies when in actuality it's really more about people examining data. I don't think the US has many, most probably no spies in sensitive positions in China. Where would they be? If these Westerners were in China in "disguise" as employees or tourists... that's what I was talking about how it's a joke. They stick out like a sore thumb. You think they can walk in inconspicuously anywhere? The government would certainly keep its distance from domestic companies that have foreign employees which is not many in the first place. And how would they embed an agent with a ficticious background in the government? Now that's Hollywood! Really, if there's a problem with finding Chinese language fluent employees in the CIA and the FBI, how many of them look or are in fact Chinese and will choose and make it to the field? That's why most likely the US has no spies in sensitive areas in China. Ergo, why US intelligence on China is so bad.

US intelligence agents out in the field are more about paying people off for intelligence which can be highly unreliable and questionable in the first place but the safest route if you're paranoid which is a part of the spygame culture. Tom Clancy even said it was more about sitting behind a desk in Langley than agents in the field.
I doubt seriously that the US is trying to insert non-native Chinese into China as spies as it's main approach. I would think that it would not be difficult to find individuals who dislike the current government and would be open to helping foreign intelligence gatherers.

[toisanwu]

I doubt seriously that the US is trying to insert non-native Chinese into China as spies as it's main approach. I would think that it would not be difficult to find individuals who dislike the current government and would be open to helping foreign intelligence gatherers.

That could be one of the reasons.

But I bet the main reason is that "money talks". Lots of people are willing to sell you their first born with the right price, Chinese or non-Chinese. For this reason, I would think Western countries, US, UK, etc, should be quite successfully in intelligence gatherings inside China.

I do not buy the argument that because we didn't hear anything about the Chinese intelligence gatherings, they must be very successful.

[Shingy]

I do not buy the argument that because we didn't hear anything about the Chinese intelligence gatherings, they must be very successful.

Why not? i mean if an intelligence agency were to gather intelligence on a certain country yet everyone knew about it, it definitely means they are rubbish, unless they are purposely doing it to feed the other side information, same goes for the fact their intelligence can be manipulated into giving false information also.
If we can't find out anything about them, or hear anything about them, they have to be successful to the extent that they have managed to keep things like this hidden and under wraps so no one knows, thats what its all about, how hard can that be to understand?

[AssassinsMace]

I doubt seriously that the US is trying to insert non-native Chinese into China as spies as it's main approach. I would think that it would not be difficult to find individuals who dislike the current government and would be open to helping foreign intelligence gatherers.

The spygame has been romaticized by Hollywood. Nothing glamorous in reality. All the intelligence mishaps regarding Iraq pretty much says how the CIA works. They don't have agents in foreign governments. It's all about paying people off for information which is why the US got faulty information in the first place. Really, if the US was so successful in intelligence gathering in China, why would they call for China to be more transparent? Meaning the US doesn't know what's going in China. I'm sure someone will say that's the plan to say the US knows nothing. This stubborn belief that the US has to be successful in espionage is the reason why I don't buy the excuse that the US feigns failure. Americans make Chinese espionage in the US out to be a clandestine organized operation when it's probably as simply as someone just trying to make money.

[SampanViking]

The test surely of a good Intelligence Agency, is not only the ability yto avoid detection, but for their country to be able to show advances and developments at a rate far faster than domestic research would be deemed capable of generating.

You would also expect any dissidents or overseas opponents to be quietly neutralised and rendered impotent, but without sensational International headlines being generated.

That is the criteria, now to whom would you consider that it best fitted?

[Sea Dog]

The spygame has been romaticized by Hollywood. Nothing glamorous in reality. All the intelligence mishaps regarding Iraq pretty much says how the CIA works. They don't have agents in foreign governments. It's all about paying people off for information which is why the US got faulty information in the first place. Really, if the US was so successful in intelligence gathering in China, why would they call for China to be more transparent? Meaning the US doesn't know what's going in China. I'm sure someone will say that's the plan to say the US knows nothing. This stubborn belief that the US has to be successful in espionage is the reason why I don't buy the excuse that the US feigns failure. Americans make Chinese espionage in the US out to be a clandestine organized operation when it's probably as simply as someone just trying to make money.

Well, you're right that Hollywood has done a bang up job representing the intelligence field. In all actuality, The U.S.'s intelligence was co-aligned with many intelligence agencies in the world regarding Iraq's weapons programs. Perhaps not the "stockpiles" that never materialized. But the Russians, Isreali intelligence, Britian's, and German intelligence all had reported that Iraq had weapons programs and were seeking materials to build weapons. But even so, the weapons were only a fraction of why Iraq was invaded. Take a look at all the UN resolutions that Saddam stuck his nose up at. :)

In regards to the U.S.'s intelligence on China. You wouldn't know what they have. This stuff sounds exactly the same as the stuff we heard from Cold War circles. Sampan probably remembers. The Soviet Union thought they were acheiving all these intelligence bonanza's on the West, particularly the USA, and we found out after the Soviet Union disintegrated that the US and Britian made sure that the Soviets got what they wanted......with alot of Trojan Horses into it. This is why I think China is the easiest counterintelligence target in the world. Because they are so starved for technical info, and any other piece of scientific knowledge they can get.

Plus the fact that there are so many Western people in China, it would be utterly easy to recruit someone for collection. The fact that you're seeing reports on the internet that "officials" seek a more transparent China is meaningless. And something you can roll your eyes at. I do believe that US intelligence agencies have plenty of info on China, or have ways to get the info they seek. I do know that not everyone in China is in lockstep with the government. And they're driven by money or other motivators as well. In counterintelligence, China is totally vulnerable. China's strength in building an economy by inviting all these foreign entities in, may also be her biggest internal intelligence weakness. The Soviets were not as open to foreign business interests, were extremely paranoid, yet we got all the poop we needed from them. And we exploited their own greed for technical info. This is so reminiscent of the 1980's. Thankfully, you nor I will never know.

That is the criteria,

Who did you have in mind? I think the best intelligence agency would be one that could collect, properly analyze, and properly disseminate it's data. And be an entity you'd think were never interested in collection of this data, and you didn't know they were ever there.

[sumdud]

Wrong forum. ->world forces.
This isn't about anything Chinese.

----
All I will say about China's intel community is that they have a pretty good hacker program.

DIA? I have never even heard of that.

Does anyone know how long the KGB defectant (don't know name) that died in London was able to defect before meeting his fate?
CIA? No way.

My pick is the Mossad, followed by MI-6

[AssassinsMace]

Plus the fact that there are so many Western people in China, it would be utterly easy to recruit someone for collection. The fact that you're seeing reports on the internet that "officials" seek a more transparent China is meaningless. And something you can roll your eyes at. I do believe that US intelligence agencies have plenty of info on China, or have ways to get the info they seek. I do know that not everyone in China is in lockstep with the government. And they're driven by money or other motivators as well. In counterintelligence, China is totally vulnerable. China's strength in building an economy by inviting all these foreign entities in, may also be her biggest internal intelligence weakness. The Soviets were not as open to foreign business interests, were extremely paranoid, yet we got all the poop we needed from them. And we exploited their own greed for technical info. This is so reminiscent of the 1980's. Thankfully, you nor I will never know.

The fact is the vast majority of people in China aren't in sensitive positions and we haven't seen any signifcant defections since the 1970s. So if there were so much political discontent in China, why haven't we seen a lot of important defections? And the US treats these discontented people you speak of so wonderfully? The last person who cried for and was released with US help for being wrongfully imprisoned in China, was charged with corporate espionage for China in the US and was to be deported back to be persecuted. I think that case alone has sent a message in both the US and in China. In the US... more paranoia now that lauded dissidents are "double-agents" now spying against the US. And in China... the US can easily send you back to China to be persecuted. You are sadly mistaken to think there's a lot of political discontent in China. That vast majority of people just want their families to have a comfortable life. That's why the communist government has been able to stay in power. They get the people more care about their living standard than politics. People protest for economic reasons all the time. It's the political protests that get you in trouble. If China were that vulnerable, then why all the complaining and fear from the US? China inviting foreign entities to do what? The US has restrictions to what US companies can do in China. And I thought that China was the one behind in everything, so what would these spies get out of China? They certainly don't have access to the government in what they do in their corporate commercial world. What do they have access to that is so sensitive for China? And China ain't the Soviet Union and spies didn't cause their downfall. The Soviet Union collapsed because she couldn't keep up with Reagan's arms build-up. Do you see China frantically trying to keep up with the US? China has been very pragmatic with their military contrary to the propaganda from the US about China's military build-up. In fact, the US seems to be in the paranoid position the Soviets were in in regards to China these days.

The U.S.'s intelligence was co-aligned with many intelligence agencies in the world regarding Iraq's weapons programs. Perhaps not the "stockpiles" that never materialized. But the Russians, Isreali intelligence, Britian's, and German intelligence all had reported that Iraq had weapons programs and were seeking materials to build weapons. But even so, the weapons were only a fraction of why Iraq was invaded. Take a look at all the UN resolutions that Saddam stuck his nose up at.

Hence proving my point that the intelligence game doesn't live up to the hype. All those agencies got it wrong? That pretty much says it all!

[Sea Dog]

The fact is the vast majority of people in China aren't in sensitive positions and we haven't seen any signifcant defections since the 1970s. So if there were so much political discontent in China, why haven't we seen a lot of important defections? And the US treats these discontented people you speak of so wonderfully? The last person who cried for and was released with US help for being wrongfully imprisoned in China, was charged with corporate espionage for China in the US and was to be deported back to be persecuted. I think that case alone has sent a message in both the US and in China. In the US... more paranoia now that lauded dissidents are "double-agents" now spying against the US. And in China... the US can easily send you back to China to be persecuted. You are sadly mistaken to think there's a lot of political discontent in China. That vast majority of people just want their families to have a comfortable life. That's why the communist government has been able to stay in power. They get the people more care about their living standard than politics. People protest for economic reasons all the time. It's the political protests that get you in trouble. If China were that vulnerable, then why all the complaining and fear from the US? China inviting foreign entities to do what? The US has restrictions to what US companies can do in China. And I thought that China was the one behind in everything, so what would these spies get out of China? They certainly don't have access to the government in what they do in their corporate commercial world. What do they have access to that is so sensitive for China? And China ain't the Soviet Union and spies didn't cause their downfall. The Soviet Union collapsed because she couldn't keep up with Reagan's arms build-up. Do you see China frantically trying to keep up with the US? China has been very pragmatic with their military contrary to the propaganda from the US about China's military build-up. In fact, the US seems to be in the paranoid position the Soviets were in in regards to China these days.

Hence proving my point that the intelligence game doesn't live up to the hype. All those agencies got it wrong? That pretty much says it all!

I think you misinterpret some of my points. I don't think anybody here made any statement about "oppressed" Chinese citizenry. You don't need "opressed" or "discontented" citizens as a requirement for human intel. People as a general rule are prone to do things for money, or other motivators. Chinese people are no different. And sorry, but I do not believe, nor could you ever convince me that every Chinese person in China is in total lockstep with the CCP and their aims. I don't buy it. And I never will. And I've seen examples of Chinese citizens who loathe the CCP and their goals. There's lots of valuable intel to get from many sources. Just the fact that there are so many Western people in China in most coastal cities make it impossible for China to hide any potential invasion force for Taiwan or movement of large scale forces of any significance. That's just one example. The lowly peasant can also watch where missiles travel. ;)

As far as intelligence gathering. Don't make me laugh. The USA is not looking to China for scientific development or technological gains. The USA is ahead of China in most, if not all scientific and engineering fields. That's not what I'm talking about. The point is, there is alot of information of other intelligence that can be gained. And with all the Western people there, recruiting for collection would be simple. And I'm not so sure you understand what counterintelligence is and it's significance. The USA and NATO did a great job of this against the Soviets. And everyone thought that the Soviets were reaping windfalls of great intelligence bonanza's from the West. Come to find out that the USA was able to exploit Soviet Russia's greed for technical information and expertise from the West to the USA's advantage. I believe this is happening again. China is totally vulnerable to this type of counterintelligence due to their hunger for technical info from any and every source. Oh, I know there's not a bunch of internet hyped up stories to tell you it (thankfully), but facts is facts.

And China ain't the Soviet Union and spies didn't cause their downfall.

Correct, China ain't the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was an independent entity that could challenge the USA on a pretty even footing militarily anywhere in the world. China cannot do this even regionally. The Soviets were very closed and paranoid as well. That's why you see such differences in how the USA deals with China versus the way they dealt with the Soviet Union. China is not called an "enemy". The current strategy seems to be to make China a stakeholder with something to lose. This way they won't do something stupid. This would never have worked with the Soviets. They required a whole different approach. Whether or not it works here remains to be seen. But this approach seems to be geared for a win-win situation if it works. China gets rich and modernizes, and the USA has peace in that region for itself and allies alike.

Spies did not cause the Soviets downfall. But counterintelligence was a good part of it.

The one area you are correct is your last statement. Intelligence gathering is not a perfect science. And there are no perfect methods of gathering. Analysis can be equally confusing. And sometimes things change that can render what you gathered obsolete. That's just the nature of the business.

DIA? I have never even heard of that.


DIA is Defense Intelligence Agency. Totally a different entity than CIA. You can draw your own conclusions based upon the fact that they're not as well heard about. And there's others.

[AssassinsMace]

And sorry, but I do not believe, nor could you ever convince me that every Chinese person in China is in total lockstep with the CCP and their aims.

I didn't say anything like that. But you seem to believe that people can be easily traitorous. Like I said, most Chinese aren't political so why would they bother being traitorous for the US? Most Chinese-Americans don't get involved in American politics and somehow mainland Chinese are... enough to betray their country for the US? I don't know what history you know about China, but the Chinese tend to be suspicious of Western motives due to history. So they aren't so easily turned by the charms of the West. I'm sure you'll find plenty of Chinese that will give lip service but thats it. The vast majority of Chinese that do work against China for the US are doing it for self-serving purposes like money or an easy ticket to the US by crying political asylum not because of some political belief or again you would see somebody important defect.

And I've seen examples of Chinese citizens who loathe the CCP and their goals.

What goals? They're only communist by name. Everything they do now is about economics not anything political. I'd like to know what goals are you talking about. The moderators should be watching this. So I'd suggest to you if whatever you're thinking falls in line with the "Yellow Peril" crap, don't answer this question. And remember, if you've seen my posts here, I can easily play that game about the West.

Just the fact that there are so many Western people in China in most coastal cities make it impossible for China to hide any potential invasion force for Taiwan or movement of large scale forces of any significance.

You mean the US doesn't have satellites to do that job? You don't need ground intel for that.

The point is, there is alot of information of other intelligence that can be gained. And with all the Western people there, recruiting for collection would be simple. And I'm not so sure you understand what counterintelligence is and it's significance. The USA and NATO did a great job of this against the Soviets. And everyone thought that the Soviets were reaping windfalls of great intelligence bonanza's from the West.

And you forget all those reports that say US intelligence services don't have that many people that have Chinese language skills. So how do they recruit people if they can't eve speak the language? So few also means not many agents that are Chinese themselves. So is this about American charm alone winning over Chinese hearts? We saw what that kind of thinking resulted in Iraq when it was thought the Iraqis were going to see Americans as liberators and throw hugs and kisses and roses on the American invader.

And China seems to have a vibrant counterintelligence since the US government demands China to be transparent all the time. Meaning the US needs help in order to know what China is doing. Those US counterintelligence agents seem to be not doing their jobs.

China is totally vulnerable to this type of counterintelligence due to their hunger for technical info from any and every source. Oh, I know there's not a bunch of internet hyped up stories to tell you it (thankfully), but facts is facts.

Vulnerable to something they don't have in the first place. You should watch what you say because now you're saying Chinese espionage is successful in obtaining techincal info because they wouldn't be vulnerable to being denied it if they didn't have it. Meaning also US counterintelligence isn't as successful as you believe. And if it's so easily obtainable, the US would be in no position to deny it.

[Gollevainen]

why I start smelling politics in here??:nono: ???

One more claim of that some other people are more traitorous or non-traitorous and I start taking narrow minded view on that and interprepate it as racism...

Gollevainen Super moderator

[Finn McCool]

You never hear about signals intelligence (signit). However the powers of the world are still as busy as ever trying to read each others transmissions. The NSA takes care of that in the US with listening posts in Iceland and England (I don't know the locations of any others but I'm certain there are more.)

However I don't really have much to say because signit operations are so secret around the world. Just about 20 years ago was the information about Allied ULTRA activites during WWII released. I still haven't heard anything about code breaking during the Cold War so it will probably be a long time before we hear anything about code breaking now.

[wdl1976]

While in the topic, but I am not sure whether I am a bit political or not? (If I do please forgive me)

I would say now the biggest propaganda machine in the world is actually Hollywood.

What u guys think?

[The_Zergling]

While in the topic, but I am not sure whether I am a bit political or not? (If I do please forgive me)

I would say now the biggest propaganda machine in the world is actually Hollywood.

What u guys think?

Not particularly political, just a bit off topic, I suppose. But I'll humor the topic.

If you're saying that they're influential because their movies are shown all over the world and that they create a fantasy world that many immerse themselves in, I would say that they are, but if you're referring to a unified "agenda" I would be hard pressed to find one.