Helicopter Air-Battles in the Iran-Iraq war

[Kampfwagen]

Hey there.

I'm doing research on the Mi-24 series of Helicopter-Gunships/Transports and I stumbled onto this during a search.

During the Iran-Iraq war, Iran's AH-1 Cobra's (not sure of the variant) squared off against Mi-24 Hind-D's of Iraq in the only Air-To-Air combat between Helicopters.

Basically, I am trying to learn more about the Mi-24 and if I can learn something about the AH-1 while I am at it, I'm all for.

How well did they do, which craft came out the superior? What tactics were used?

Any general information would be great.

And please. Let's not turn this into a political discussion. Hopefully this goes without say.

[crazyinsane105]

Hmm....interesting topic. To be quite honest with you, I've read very little about helicopters squaring off against each other during the Iran-Iraq war. Then again, both the Iranian and Iraqi armies were operating in clear skies throughout much of the war (although the Iranian air force was able to hit Iraqi airbases and cities quite frequently). I know the Iranians managed to inflict huge armor losses against the Iraqis, though a lot of their AH's did get shot down in the process.

[BLUEJACKET]

Here is some info:
Although the Hind was faster and tougher, the Cobra was more agile. Soviet evaluations had demonstrated that in a contest between two helicopters the one that could turn more tightly was likely to win.

According to a story, the Cobra's advantage in maneuverability over the Hind had been demonstrated in the early 1980s. A Soviet Hind based in East Germany was flying along the border with West Germany, playing "cat" to a US Army Cobra flying on the other side of the border in the role of "mouse". The Cobra pilot was a "real pro", and the Hind pilot lost control trying to follow his maneuvers. The Soviet gunship went into the ground, killing its crew.

This "kill" could more be chalked up to the Soviet pilot's fatal stupidity than to the American pilot's skill, and in fact the Iraqis demonstrated that the contest between Hind and Cobra was far from one-sided.

It might not have seemed so at first. In November 1980, not long after the beginning of the war with Iraq's invasion of Iran on 22 September 1980, two Iranian SeaCobras crept up on two Hinds and hit them with TOW wired-guided antitank missiles. One Hind went down immediately, the other was badly damaged and crashed before reaching base. The Iranians pulled off a repeat performance on 24 April 1981, destroying two Hinds without loss to themselves.

Then the Iraqis hit back, claiming the destruction of a SeaCobra on 14 September 1983; three SeaCobras on 5 February 1984; and three more on 25 February 1984. Things went quiet for a time, and then on 13 February 1986 each side lost a gunship. A few days later, on 16 February, a Hind shot down a SeaCobra, with a SeaCobra claiming a Hind in return on 18 February. The last engagement between the two types was on 22 May 1986, when the Hinds shot down a SeaCobra.

The score in the end was 10 kills on SeaCobras and 6 kills on Hinds. The relatively small numbers and the inevitable disputes over actual kill numbers makes it unclear if one gunship had a real technical superiority over the other. It appears that the outcome of the fights was dependent more on the tactical situation and pilot skill than the inherent merits of each machine.

Iraqi Hinds also claimed a total of 43 kills against other Iranian helicopters, such as Agusta-Bell Hueys. One Hind even shot down an Iranian McDonnell F-4D Phantom jet fighter on 26 October 1982, though different sources give conflicting details of the incident.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avhind2.html

IMO Mi-28 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mi-28.htm)& KA-50 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/ka-50.htm)series are even better suited for air to air combat than Mi-24s (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2082049458548608913&q=Mi-24&hl=en)/AH-1W Super Cobras (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/supcobra/)!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-811132659577028591&q=Mi-24&hl=en

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mi28/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4791871839437459953&q=Mi-28&hl=en

http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka_50/ka50_en.htm

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ka50/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8064695790789319878&q=ka-50&hl=en

The Ka-50 "Black Shark" earned a good reputation not only among its pilots, but also among the Mi-24 pilots, who were amazed by the Ka-50’s agility. The "Shkval" sighting system permits the Ka-50 to execute intensive air-defense-evasion maneuvers following the launch of missiles, without losing the target lock. Frequently, pilots of the escorting Mi-24 assault helicopters lost the sight of the Ka-50s and were searching for them in the wrong part of the sky.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news001/news030.htm

[Kampfwagen]

I know all about the KA-50 and Mi-28. Very nice helicopters and most certiantlly better in the attack role.

I figured it would have had more to do with pilot skill and chance rather than the capabilities of either aircraft.

Thanks a bunch, Blue!

[JimGoose]

Hello, I stumbled on here via Google, but I'd like to add what I've found about the topic. In 1992 a USMC Major (Major R. M. Brady) wrote a document titled "AH-1W Air Combat Maneuver Training -- Why It Must Be Reinstated" wherein he cites Iran's use of AH-1s against Iraqi Soviet designed gunships.

Here are the sections relevant to your questions:

Here is the article URL: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1992/BRM.htm

The 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq War witnessed numerous helicopter air combat engagements. During this war, Iranian AH-1J' s engaged Iraqi MI-8 Hip and MI-24 Hind helicopters. Unclassified sources report that the Iranian AH-1 pilots achieved a 10:1 kill ratio over the Iraqi helicopter pilots during these engagements (1:5) Additionally, Iranian AH-1 and Iraqi fixed wing aircraft engagements also occurred.

i would also like to add that Iran has for a few years been able to completely overhaul its AH-1 fleet up to AH-1S specs, and repair many airframes previously written off as wrecks during the US imposed spare parts strangle hold during the Iran-Iraq war. Iran's "HESA" institute has also begun work on a totally reverse engineered and upgraded variant of the AH-1S along with locally made upgrades (FLIR, cockpit, canopy, etc) known as "Panha 2091" (Bell Texatron is trying to sue for this copyright violation). As of late, IRIAA AH-1s see combat in anti-drug trafficing operations against well armed and funded Warlords in western Afghanistan in the Baluchistan regions. Sorry to spam on about the AH-1 but hey now you know more :)

you can find lots of valuable info at ACIG.org