All About The Chinese Aircraft Carrier Thread

[Sczepan]

If I were making decisions were to permanently base PLAN CVs, Hainan would be the last place- and I would forward deploy the oldest one there only, if there is no room for it anywhere else. Enemy SSN/SSGNs and bombers in & above S.China Sea can launch a salvo of SLCM/ALCMs and hit sub/CV/AF bases there and on Southern coast easier than on the NE coast- E.China & Yellow Seas are shallow, more confined and more difficult for subs to operate in undetected, and there are more PLAN/AF units to protect bases there.
http://data.ecology.su.se/MNODE/Asia/yellowseakorea.gif

http://community.middlebury.edu/~scs/maps/bathymetry.jpg
....

hi BLuejacket,
if I think about this - I doubt about your idea:

the Yellow- and East China Sea are closed by South Korea, Japan, the Ryu-Kyu-Islands (including Okinawa) and Taiwan - in case of a conflict, a carrier is captivity in these coastal aerea - and to defend this aerea, you don't need carriers, there are enough land based fighters there.
So a carrier in this arrier is useless without in the mission to be a trainee-carrier.

If the PLAN will have a carrier in offensive missions - to protect the sealines - this carrier needs ports without those bolts. So the South-fleet including Hainan Island to me seems to be the best place for a carrier homeport.
:china:

[BLUEJACKET]

hi BLuejacket,
the Yellow- and East China Sea are closed by South Korea, Japan, the Ryu-Kyu-Islands (including Okinawa) and Taiwan - in case of a conflict, a carrier is captivity in these coastal aerea - and to defend this aerea, you don't need carriers, there are enough land based fighters there.
If the PLAN will have a carrier in offensive missions - to protect the sealines - this carrier needs ports without those bolts. So the South-fleet including Hainan Island to me seems to be the best place for a carrier homeport.
:china:
Yellow & E.China Sea aren't closed- there are few hundred miles between Korea & China, and the Taiwan strait is 100 miles wide - by sailing along & close to the Mainland's coast it's possible to get to the S.China Sea but the route from it to the Indian & Pacific Ocean has choke points (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=328)- the straits of Malakka, Indonesian straits and the wider Luzon strait .
[Yellow Sea is a] Gulf of the Pacific Ocean between China and Korea; length approximately 1,000 km/620 mi, greatest width 700 km/435 mi; area 466,200 sq km/180,000 sq mi. To the north are the gulfs of Korea, Chihli, and Liaotung. There are many small islands to the east near the Korean coast. It receives the Huang He (Yellow River) and Chang Jiang (Yangtze Kiang), which transport yellow mud (derived from the soil known as loess, which was originally wind-blown from central Asia) down into the shallow waters (average depth 44 m/144 ft). ..
The width of the sea surface in most of the East China Sea area between China and Japan is less than 400 nautical miles. (http://english.people.com.cn/200507/21/eng20050721_197493.html) -[still more than enough for PLAN CBG!]
Luzon strait extending for more than 200 miles (320 km) between the islands of Taiwan (north) and Luzon, Philippines (south). It connects the South China Sea (west) with the Philippine Sea (east). The strait is a series of channels, dotted with islands in its southern reaches—i.e., the Batan and Babuyan island groups.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0002705.html

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9049467/Luzon-Strait

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Luzon_Strait_n7184.jpg

So, to protect the SLOCs, sea bastions for SSBNs, etc. beyond those seas a carrier will have to get through them- it can be bottled up in the S.China Sea even if its base is on Hainan!

[Finn McCool]

I agree with Scezpan. He already stated why a more northern basing would confine a CBG, but I would like to add that the SLOCs to the Indian Ocean are more important to China than those to the Central Pacific and Japan. Why? Oil.

Also, if you base a CV in Hainan, it would farther away from possibly threatening US assets in Okinawa and Guam.

[BLUEJACKET]

I agree with Scezpan. He already stated why a more northern basing would confine a CBG, but I would like to add that the SLOCs to the Indian Ocean are more important to China than those to the Central Pacific and Japan. Why? Oil.
Also, if you base a CV in Hainan, it would farther away from possibly threatening US assets in Okinawa and Guam.
If they were smart, the Chinese would forward deploy CBG either in Burma, Pakistan, Sudan or Iran- that way their presense in the Indian Ocean can be maintained at all times.
The US and/or India could get to use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_Ranh_Bay) Cam Ranh base (http://pcf45.com/cam_ranh/camranh.html)in Vietnam (not a very friendly nation to PRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War)to begin with) again- a lot closer to Hainan than Okinawa and Guam!

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/se_asia_pol_95.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/schina_sea_88.jpg

[bd popeye]

BLUEJACKET sez;
If they were smart, the Chinese would forward deploy CBG in Burma, Pakistan, Sudan or Iran- that way their presense in the Indian Ocean can be maintained at all times.
The US could get to use Cam Ranh base in Vietnam (not a very friendly nation to PRC to begin with) again- a lot closer to Hainan than Okinawa and Guam!

What would be the advantage of the US basing a CV and other ships in Vietnam? How would you suppourt it? Where would the dependents stay? What about the airwing? You can't be serious.:confused:

As for the PLAN "foward deploying" a CV in one of the countries you mentioned. Ain't gonna happen....The PLAN is just now emerging as a possible blue water navy. They are not ready for such a step.

[BLUEJACKET]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]

What would be the advantage of the US basing a CV and other ships in Vietnam? How would you suppourt it? Where would the dependents stay? What about the airwing? You can't be serious.:confused:
As for the PLAN "foward deploying" a CV in one of the countries you mentioned. Ain't gonna happen....The PLAN is just now emerging as a possible blue water navy. They are not ready for such a step.
I didn't mean any CV/N, but other ships can just get to use it when needed instead of permanetly homeported there. Besides Vietnam, There are also Singapore and Philippines- the former already hosts USN base and the latter may do so again, on a contingency basis.
"Foward deploying" : The PLAN may keep their small boys and subs in Burma & Pakistan (http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2528.html) easily- both border (http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Asia-and-Oceania/Pakistan-TRANSPORTATION.html) on China and have roads (http://www.china.org.cn/english/travel/190328.htm) to connect them! As their CV fleet gets bigger, one of them may eventialy be sent there as well. Until then, PLAAF/N can rotate fighters/MP/AWACs, etc. to compensate for CV's absence.

[bd popeye]

I didn't mean any CV/N, but other ships can just get to use it when needed instead of permanetly homeported there. Besides Vietnam, There is also Singapore and Philippines- the former already hosts USN base and the latter may do so again, on a contingency basis.
"Foward deploying" : The PLAN may keep their small boys and subs in Burma & Pakistan easily- both border on China and have roads to connect them! As their CV fleet gets bigger, one of them may eventialy be sent there as well. Until then, PLAAF/N can rotate fighters/MP/AWACs, etc. to compensate for CV's absence.

Thanks for clearing that up. the USN has sent a few ships to Vietnam for port calls;

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,103880,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/11/18/us.vietnam.ap/index.html

There have been several other port calls.

I have long speculated that the US would use Subic Bay again. However most of the faclicities there to suppourt the USN no longer exist.

As for the PLAN as long as they continue to stroke their allies they will more than likely get permsiison to get suppourt and bases in southwest Asia and africa.

[maozedong]

Hi Blue Jack:
I think you should more research the relation ship betwen China- Vietnam- US.
not you think that, Vietnam more closed to China in last 5 years, But in these year US- Vietnam relation no more develop.
US try to use Vietnam,but VIetnamses so clever,US can not use Cam Ranh base,never.
between China- Vietnam relation, I can say same as nice as 1970.
Vietnam more depency China year after years in last 5 years, not you think like 80's.
In this Vietnam APEC, US Bush sit in cold chair,China presden is a hottst person in Vietman, that media reported widely.
Viectnam never trust US,in fact,US do a lot of interfere Vietnam internal affair in the back that Viectnam dislike.
Vietnamese undersdand if China Broke down like Soviet Union, next will be Vietnam.
in E/S asia only japan (ofcause Taiwan) is US loyalty friend, most of country are friends of China.
India is not enemy of China,since 1950 India alway stand arround few large countrys to get some adventage,China no conflict with India in ocean.they conflict at land border, in 1962 between CHN-IND conflict India loos but China give them the land back - that land suppose belong to China,so the India so satisfy.India can not bother China in ocean if they do so China can attack it back from the land.now, CHN -IND trading year more years,both country relation get more progress to nice.
for foreign relation should be more ideas,not only use force.China is a large powerfull country but nice to the other countrys,other countrys also nice and respect china - not like you think so bad.
if you research China carrier, that relate many portion,military, politics,foreign relation, that you have to more research about these.
China have carrier,can not challenge US now,just like other countrys have CVs, dosn't means challenge US, if China use CBGs challenge US, at least 25 years later.
even East China Sea enough for a CBGs,China can't not send a CBGs in to there -challenge US -Japan union,so,if China put 2 CVs in North Sea ( not Yellow Sea), still not safe as you think, such big stuff, aney time destoryed by US -Japanese cruise missles, North Sea base is safe for SSBN - not carrier.
also, Borr Sea weather that you don't know is bad for CVs training,there is heavy snow, storm, freezeing from oct to mach,not like you think is better than E/S China.
I used to lived in Guangzhou,HongKong for 20 years, typoons not you think that bad, most people like to live in S/E now.
if CV in North Sea, only 6 months nice werther for traning, if CVs in South China Sea, there is nice werther for whole year,exept few times heavy typhoons.many oil rigs in South China Sea ocean, they never dameged by typhoons. you can compare with oil rig and large CVs, which is strong?
by the way, chinese oil rigs in South China Sea always harass by unidentify foreign planes, ships that you never known,the PLAN and PLAAF so hard to patrol there,too far away from PLA land base, that is why S sea Fleet head base move to Hainan. if China CVs traning in there, that means chinese fighters always appear in there.
now,is not war time, China CVs can sail every where in China's coast, include Taiwan strait.the USN include CVs always visit H.K and stayed one week there, they allow chinese people visit the ships,you should know some deffint between cold war and now.the things is just you beware me, I beware you,not cold war.who's subs can attack China's CVs? only US can do this,if so, they also get troble,both China and US are large nuclear countrys.
if the CVs service in S sea Fleet, the CVs usely sail arround Hainan -Janjian -Guanzhou,if Taiwan happen crrisis,the carrier soon arrive to S/E side of Taiwan, help PLA attack Taiwan from west and fast control the island befor USN arrive, if the CBGs hidding in North Sea, how long they can come to Taiwan? also the CBGs movement from north just beware the enemy, no aney help.
I wouldn't discuss this because I have to spend a lots of word to talk about this and we already watched most maps before you showed them.aney way,you can keep your oppinion, some is reasonable.
China needs CBGs to protect the trading safty from ocean,it is difficult for China now, but China must star to do it,and I think China already enough power to star.
to form a CBGs to do this dosn't means challenge US,many countrys like France,UK,India,Italia,Tailan,Brasil, they have CBGs to protect their ocean adventage is not to challenge US.

[kunmingren]

If they were smart, the Chinese would forward deploy CBG either in Burma, Pakistan, Sudan or Iran- that way their presense in the Indian Ocean can be maintained at all times.
The US and/or India could get to use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_Ranh_Bay) Cam Ranh base (http://pcf45.com/cam_ranh/camranh.html)in Vietnam (not a very friendly nation to PRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War)to begin with) again- a lot closer to Hainan than Okinawa and Guam!

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/se_asia_pol_95.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/schina_sea_88.jpg


India and Vietnam distrust China, but their relationships cant be called 'unfriendly'. Maozedong already gave a fair assement on Vietname, and i agree that its very unlikely Vietnam will allow itself to be used by US like that. India is a bigger and more power nation, and its even less likely to that it will fear China to the point to which it let US use itself as an AntiChina chess piece. Infact, India and China havent had a better relationship since the 50s. Outside of US and Canada and may be Japan, i dont think their are any nation that is viewing China as an enemy; competitor may be.

[BLUEJACKET]

I agree with most of what the last 2 post say, however, the US tends to look at other nations capabilities as a potential threat, even during peace & good relations. Politicians and the military-industrial complex have to make a living- look what happened during the CW years- the "Soviet threat" was greatly exaggerated (http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,686956,00.html) in many aspects and the arms race (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1123774119508772272)went on for decades!
Even if Vietnam won't allow the use of that base, there are Singapore & Philippines nearby (besides Guam), as mentioned earlier. North Sea base is safe for SSBN - not carrier.
Why is safe for a SSBN inport and not safe for a CV inport?
CVs can have their training done in the South but be based in the North (their escorts may be homeported anywhere, and can join in as a CV sails past them)- I feel there is more protection by geography since the Korean peninsula blocks the Yellow Sea from the East- ships, missiles & aircraft must attack from farther away in the South. And if a carrier sails from Hainan it will also be detected, and the distance is the same from it to Taiwan as from the southern part of the Yellow Sea anyway!
Typhoons/storms (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6207178.stm)don't hit the same places all the time, but when they do, there is a lot of costly damage! Hurricanes Katrina (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/americas/2005/hurricane_katrina/default.stm), Andrew (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/photosvideos/photos/damage-from-hurricane-andrew) & Mitch (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/202395.stm) are good examples! I remember during the CV-63 portcall to Pusan, ROK we pulled out 1 day earlier to avoid typhoon Zeb (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/195457.stm) that was feared coming towards S.Korea. We sailed all the way to within 150 miles off Okinawa and the sea was very rough!
http://metocph.nmci.navy.mil/jtwc/atcr/1998atcr/ch3/figures/fig3-18-2.gif

[maozedong]

addinion for Blue Jack:
Hong kong and Macau already return back to China and PLA already take over H.K and Macau in 1997,1999.
in your maps that showed H.K and Macau still control by U.K and Portuga,that may give some body wrong knowlodge.
they may misunderstand that China's CVs sail accross H.K and Macau will get trouble.
in fact, H.K is a good port base for chinese CVs.the base belong to S sea Fleet.
next time please show correct maps in the post, if you don't have correct maps please not to show them untill you fine some right one.
thank you.
addinion:
please note: what I said the CVs in south Sea may sail arround Hainan -Janjian- Grungzhou.
what I think US cruise missile absolutely can destroy the CVs in North Sea - from South Korean, or launch from improved Ohio class attack sub, ofcause US have to pay for that.but this War I don't think will happen.
so, there is no needs the CVs hiding in North Sea.there is SSBN base, not for CVs.
please check once more the CVs distance from Borr Sea to Taiwan, I think KittyHawk already arrived.

[BLUEJACKET]

addinion for Blue Jack:
Hong kong and Macau already return back to China and PLA already take over H.K and Macau in 1997,1999.
in your maps that showed H.K and Macau still control by U.K and Portuga,that may give some body wrong knowlodge. ..
what I think US cruise missile absolutely can destroy the CVs in North Sea - from South Korean, or launch from improved Ohio class attack sub, ofcause US have to pay for that.but this War I don't think will happen.
so, there is no needs the CVs hiding in North Sea.there is SSBN base, not for CVs.
please check once more the CVs distance from Borr Sea to Taiwan, I think KittyHawk already arrived.
I assumed anyone using the Net should know about H.K. & Macau return to China! Let's look at the big picture!
The ROK won't allow any missile attack on PRC form its territory- they'll pay a bigger price than the US otherwise! my point is that Ohio SSGNs and other subs will have to launch their Tomahawks/Harpoons from deep water launch points that are further away than if they were aiming at Hainan or the South coast- making it easier for PLAN/AF to defend against them. If they come closer & enter shallow waters, there is abigger chance of being detected, destroyed or captured, as i said before. I don't want to dwell on this basing topic anymore- so let's move on!
Where is the "Borr Sea"?

[maozedong]

I assumed anyone using the Net should know about H.K. & Macau return to China! Let's look at the big picture!
The ROK won't allow any missile attack on PRC form its territory- they'll pay a bigger price than the US otherwise! my point is that Ohio SSGNs and other subs will have to launch their Tomahawks/Harpoons from deep water launch points that are further away than if they were aiming at Hainan or the South coast- making it easier for PLAN/AF to defend against them. If they come closer & enter shallow waters, there is abigger chance of being detected, destroyed or captured, as i said before. I don't want to dwell on this basing topic anymore- so let's move on!
Where is the "Borr Sea"?
Hi:Blue Juck:
Borr Sea is in north of Yellow Sea what you think the safty sea area for CVs.
South Sea Fleet area almost conect to south Taiwan.
my scanner is broke, otherwise I can copy to the post.
last quote:if US attack China, that meas war,why the war happen?mayby is Korean war,if US - China war happen, that is disaster,many country involved,Korean can not standby.
I don't think it will happen.

[joshuatree]

Hi:Blue Juck:
Borr Sea is in north of Yellow Sea what you think the safty sea area for CVs.
South Sea Fleet area almost conect to south Taiwan.
my scanner is broke, otherwise I can copy to the post.
last quote:if US attack China, that meas war,why the war happen?mayby is Korean war,if US - China war happen, that is disaster,many country involved,Korean can not standby.
I don't think it will happen.

Sorry for the tangent but where is the Borr Sea?

[maozedong]

[QUOTE=maozedong;50379]Hi:Blue Juck:
Borr Sea is in north of Yellow Sea what you think the safty sea area for CVs.
South Sea Fleet area almost conect to south Taiwan.
my scanner is broke, otherwise I can copy to the post.
last quote:if US attack China, that meas war,why the war happen?mayby is Korean war,if US - China war happen, that is disaster,many country involved,Korean can not standby.
I don't think it will happen.[/QUOTE

Sorry for the tangent but where is the Borr Sea?

Hi
my answer already in above,I can't show the map in the post now,sorry!
Sczepan: can you show the map tell them where is " 渤海 " ? thank you !
or aney body can show it?

[bd popeye]

This is a great thread..but it has grown toooooo large. I'm am going to start a new thread entitled "All about the Chinese Carrier Thread II" on the suggestion of a forum member. Great posting guys!

bd popeye super moderator