The Horde and the 1st bullet proof vest.

[stonewind]

Now I know why mongolian hordes were not affected by arrow storms or fire attacks. Right down to most swords......SILK!!!

Silk when interwqoven like kevlar (about 16layers) is strong enough to stop a standard police issue 9mm bullet. When interwoven 20 times and added with steel plate it can stop a 44. magnum.

The mongolians even added Aspestus to there armor making them fire resilient, and leather to normnal soldiers + steel to commanders. That is easily described as one of the best medieval armor produced.

[PiSigma]

i didn't know they had kevlar back in the 12th century, i just know it's a really hard polymer. when was it first produced? and how?

[Liberator]

Now I know why mongolian hordes were not affected by arrow storms or fire attacks. Right down to most swords......SILK!!!

Silk when interwqoven like kevlar (about 16layers) is strong enough to stop a standard police issue 9mm bullet. When interwoven 20 times and added with steel plate it can stop a 44. magnum.

The mongolians even added Aspestus to there armor making them fire resilient, and leather to normnal soldiers + steel to commanders. That is easily described as one of the best medieval armor produced.

... Source??? How'd you know Mogols aren't affected by arrows?

[rommel]

Now I know why mongolian hordes were not affected by arrow storms or fire attacks. Right down to most swords......SILK!!!

Silk when interwqoven like kevlar (about 16layers) is strong enough to stop a standard police issue 9mm bullet. When interwoven 20 times and added with steel plate it can stop a 44. magnum.

The mongolians even added Aspestus to there armor making them fire resilient, and leather to normnal soldiers + steel to commanders. That is easily described as one of the best medieval armor produced.

normally, the most common used bullet vest got 32 layer of kevlar, my combat vest got 48 + a titanium plate for the heart...

BTW, kevlar was first use in the 60's, but i'm not sure, was used on sail boat

Never knew that silk was stong... Only know that spider silk is the strongest on earth, even more than kevlar...

[MIGleader]

the us is testing how to make spider silk. no progress yet, and it will be another decade before a prototype comes out.

[stonewind]

Source national geographic. I advice you to go to there website for further info. The silk bulletproof vest was tested in thailand because of some underbudgeted police precincts who wanted a bulletproof vests that the city cannot supply.

The mongol horde I meant were more resilient to arrows, not invincible. Pisigma is that sarcasm or did you not read my post? It explains why arrow storms didnt work when they took the battle to the mid east as most empires back then like persia favored ranged attacks. Attack by fire by the chinese were not as effective at it should have been. Most of the Mongol warriors would survive and surprise the enemy by over estimating the mongol hordes loss and underestimating the force that survived the fire attack.

So it goes to show that Mongol hordes were not just a brutal force but ingenuous as well.

[PiSigma]

that was not sarcasm, i was asking how did they produce it. basically is it the exact same kind of kevlar we use today. because i always thought kevlar was a fairly new invention.

[adeptitus]

http://www.coldsiberia.org/monmight.htm

The Mongol warrior used to wear Chinese silk underwear, if it could be obtained. One would not normally consider underwear to be military equipment, but the fact is that silk is a very tough substance. If arrows are shot from a larger distance, they will not easily penetrate the silk. Even if an arrow penetrates the human skin, the silk may hold, so that the arrow can be drawn out from the wound by pulling the silk around. This would also prevent poison from entering the bloodstream. Outside the normal clothes, the warrior carried a protective shield of light yet effective leather armor, which was impregnated with a lacquer-like substance in order to make it more impervious to penetration by arrows, swords and knives, and also to protect it against humid weather. Very probably this lacquer was fish glue, which was the strongest and most weather resistant natural material that fits this purpose. Often their horses also carried this type of leather armor. The horses also had saddles with stirrups, because this was necessary in order to carry all the equipment and to fight from the saddle. Mongol warriors also wore helmets, the upper part of which was made of metal, the parts covering the ears and neck were in leather.

Because the winter temperatures in Siberia and Mongolia can drop down to 60 Celsius degrees below zero, proper clothing was imperative. Thus the Mongols used heavy leather boots with felt socks on their feet. During winter they wore on their bodies several layers of wool. On the outside they typically had a covering coat of fur or sheepskin, and a fur hat with ear flaps over the helmet.

The legs were often protected by overlapping iron plates resembling fish scales, which were sewn into the boots. Each warrior carried a battle axe, a curved sword known as scimitar; a lance, and two versions of their most famous weapon: The Mongol recurved bow. One of the bows was light and could be fired rapidly from horseback, the other one was heavier and designed for long-range use from a ground position. This heavy bow had an average draw weight of 166 pounds, according to George Vernadsky much more than the strongest contemporary European bow, the English longbow. It was not until the invention of breach-load rifles in the 1860s that the world saw a small weapon which had more power than the bow of the Chingis-Khanite Mongols. As could be expected, the troops had several quivers each. Some were filled with arrows suitable for use against warriors and horses at closer ranges, while another quiver held arrows for penetration of armor or for long-range shots. Each rider had a sharpening stone for keeping the metal arms in top shape. Since self-sufficiency was the order of the day, in addition to the indispensable knife an awl, needle and thread were carried by each rider, to enable quick and effective repair of almost any type of equipment in the field.

[jimmyttl]

Ya... I saw it on National Geographic as well, it explains why a small number of mongol soldiers can treak thousand of miles n conquer a western countries. This silk decrease its fatality rate which means most of the mongol soldiers are seasoned warrioir ( u know... just like d modern day elite troops) & fighting an enemy 10 times their number proof to be an easy stuff i guess ^^

[Obcession]

Ya... I saw it on National Geographic as well, it explains why a small number of mongol soldiers can treak thousand of miles n conquer a western countries. This silk decrease its fatality rate which means most of the mongol soldiers are seasoned warrioir ( u know... just like d modern day elite troops) & fighting an enemy 10 times their number proof to be an easy stuff i guess ^^

Especially when you try to encircle the enemy and give all your archers a shooting space.

[RavenWing278]

hmmm...i was under the impression that sharp objects like darts or arrows would penetrate kevlar..

[FreeAsia2000]

Ok how would you rate the Mameukes as an army


In one of the decisive battles of history Baybars defeats the Mongols. It is the first setback suffered by the family of Genghis Khan in their remorseless half century of expansion. This battle defines for the first time a limit to their power. It preserves Palestine and Syria for the Mameluke dynasty in Egypt. Mesopotamia and Persia remain within the Mongol empire.

Baybars and his successors: AD 1260-1517

Baybars is ruthless - in the best Mameluke tradition. Seized as a boy from the Kipchak Turks, north of the Caspian, he has been brought to Egypt as a slave. His talents have enabled him to rise to high command in the Mameluke army. In 1260, the year of his great victory at Ayn Jalut, he defeats and kills his own Mameluke sultan. He is proclaimed in his place by the army.

During his reign of seventeen years Baybars crushes the Assassins in their last strongholds in Syria, drives the crusaders from Antioch, and extends the rule of Egypt across the Red Sea to control the valuable pilgrim cities of Mecca and Medina.


In exercising this extensive rule, Baybars takes the precaution of pretending that he does so on behalf of an Abbasid refugee from the ruins of Baghdad - whom he acclaims as the caliph. His many successors maintain the same fiction. These Mameluke sultans are not a family line, like a traditional dynasty. They are warlords from a military oligarchy who fight and scheme against each other to be acclaimed sultan, somewhat in the manner of the later Roman emperors.

But they manage to keep power in their own joint hands until the rise of a more organized state sharing their own Turkish origins - the Ottoman empire.

The Ottomans, cautious about Mameluke military prowess, tackle other neighbouring powers such as the Persians before approaching Egypt. But in 1517 the Ottoman sultan, Selim I, reaches the Nile delta. He takes Cairo, with some difficulty, and captures and hangs the last Mameluke sultan.

Mameluke rule, spanning nearly three centuries, has been violent and chaotic but not uncivilized. Several of Cairo's finest mosques are built by Mameluke sultans, and for a while these rulers maintain Cairo and Damascus (500 miles apart) as twin capitals. A pigeon post is maintained between them, and Baybars prides himself on being able to play polo within the same week in the two cities.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac85

or what about Jalal al-Din Mingburnu ?

[Red Guard]

does anyone EVER realize where mongolians live ( which i really favour people call chinese at the time hans) they do not have silk? I come from north china and i don't even have silkworm and the tree in my area. silk is a famous product of hangzhou, which is in the province of zhejiang(if i didn't remember it wrong, i always got confused about the south provinces). and it was the capital city of dynasty of Song (south song). Silks are not produced in north china, then how could mongolians use silk as an armour? besides. silk is one of the symble for rich people. not everyone would afford it. and it used as a military gear? i do't think so. actually, according to my knowledge, the "cloth armour" was not out until Qin dynasty, well i could be wrong, as i am not in this kind of studies. in Song dynasty, armour was still as flaks of metal, so i don't really think it's the case......
besides, i think one of the most important reason the mongals would win the war is because the fast attack tactics and the bravery of the soldiers. cavalry, speed is the key of the war. it's pretty much like blitz.....so.....well...i could be wrong, that's just what i think.


and when mongals were attacking europe, the europeans (allow me to laugh at them...) wear heavy armours as..knights, which i heard they would feel from the horseback, and can't even get back then, so they just got stepped to death under the horseshoes of mongals. as mongals they are all light cavalries, what do you call them...hussars? or..rangers? they wear light and they ride light, they move fast. so with the speed they could easily assult the foot soldiers. cut them into pieces and let mongal foot soldiers take care the rest.

[T-U-P]

you're getting the timeline wrong. mongols invaded china first, then go west to invade all the other countries, so when they battled out the persians etc. they already have china, therefore they have the source to silk.

also, IMO they did not intend to use silk as an armour, but rather as one of the many layers of clothing that they wore. but that's just my interpretation. as for classes, you have to remember that when the mongols established the Yuan dynasty, mongols are the higher ranks while hans belong to the lower rank therefore the mongol soldiers would still be treated as the "higher" class people.

[Red Guard]

ja i know, but he also mentioned when they were fighting with hans, right?
what i am saying is, silk production is a very expensive process and it took a long time, lots of people, so many things to produce. i don't think it would be part of the army gear, because....there were just not ENOUGH of it!!!

[JZXT]

ja i know, but he also mentioned when they were fighting with hans, right?
what i am saying is, silk production is a very expensive process and it took a long time, lots of people, so many things to produce. i don't think it would be part of the army gear, because....there were just not ENOUGH of it!!!

It is more common than you think, much like cotton today. Silk production is expensive today. The sericulture consisted of raising the silk worms, main goal is to get the worm to make the cacoon. So it is growing the mulberry tree variety and breeding the silk worm. It is a long process, just require people and China had a lot people. And if woven right, silk last a long time.

Sources for not enough sillk information?

[rommel]

the us is testing how to make spider silk. no progress yet, and it will be another decade before a prototype comes out.

the really easy to make spider silk... go check the Quebec's proud in biotechnology, the Nexia Biotechnology Inc, they did a spidergoat that produce the spidersilk in the goat's milk and by the way, this project was partly funded by the US Army and the Canadian National Defence Departement, guess for what ??

Anyway, I'm offtopic... So, about the silk, I think that silk was not really worn in combat because it's unconfortable when you sweat into it, it don't absord the sweat like the cotton and I also think that silk does not keep the body's heat, so you'll get cold fast...

[T-U-P]

Anyway, I'm offtopic... So, about the silk, I think that silk was not really worn in combat because it's unconfortable when you sweat into it, it don't absord the sweat like the cotton and I also think that silk does not keep the body's heat, so you'll get cold fast...
that's a bit contradicting, you're in a battle and you're sweating like hell and now you blame that silk does not keep the body heat, isn't that a good thing? it keeps you cool even in the heat of battle.

[rommel]

that's a bit contradicting, you're in a battle and you're sweating like hell and now you blame that silk does not keep the body heat, isn't that a good thing? it keeps you cool even in the heat of battle.

well, i didn't say it correctly i think (sorry but i'm a french-canadian) so i'll try to reformulate what i said, if i know how...

[patriot]

From what i know, the Mongols don't know how to make silk either do they make anything else. All they know is how to make arrows and bows, and small swords. China was the only nation that make silk and export it around the world at the time. The price of silk was also expensive like gold. So, why weren't China the one having those silk-armors but poor Mongols. I don't think they have enough money to buy those silk:china:

[Kampfwagen]

Here's an intresting bit of info

Most Kevlar can be defeated by blades like Knives and Swords and low velocity missiles like Javelins and Arrows. It's a huge disadvantage to the Bobbies over in Britian who primarily deal with fellons armed with blades. So even if Silk does act as a pre-modern Kevlar, if it worked on the same principles then it would have been pointless to use against anything of the time.

[crobato]

Now I know why mongolian hordes were not affected by arrow storms or fire attacks. Right down to most swords......SILK!!!

Silk when interwqoven like kevlar (about 16layers) is strong enough to stop a standard police issue 9mm bullet. When interwoven 20 times and added with steel plate it can stop a 44. magnum.

The mongolians even added Aspestus to there armor making them fire resilient, and leather to normnal soldiers + steel to commanders. That is easily described as one of the best medieval armor produced.


The silk won't matter much when the Ming used fire arrows (e.g. rockets) and fire sticks (musket) on the Mongols. Against a cavalry formation, the fireworks would kick up such a display to frighten the horses, if the actual firearms didn't do hurt on the horses themselves. This creates a massive psychological effect on both rider and horse.

The era of the Mongols ended with their decimation under the Ming.

[Liang Jieming]

Anyway, I'm offtopic... So, about the silk, I think that silk was not really worn in combat because it's unconfortable when you sweat into it, it don't absord the sweat like the cotton and I also think that silk does not keep the body's heat, so you'll get cold fast...
Actually, true silk can moderate body temperature. If you use a silk blanket, it keeps you cool in summer and warm in winter.

[sumdud]

On the temperature part, it really depends on the quality of it. And if I am right, it is not made with only silk, right? And it certainly isn't the warmest blanket.

I would not be surprised if the protection part is true. People don't use cheap fibers for expensive clothes. But where did the Mongols get this?