Minsk and Kiev

[PLABUDDY]

Now since some of us agree with the idea that the PLAN will eventually comission Varyag, how many of us think they will also commission Minsk and Kiev?

[Sczepan]

Now since some of us agree with the idea that the PLAN will eventually comission Varyag, how many of us think they will also commission Minsk and Kiev?
well - if the PLAN will operate carriers in the future, the PLAN should start in the earliest time they can do and they should look to purchase so much experience they ever can do
so
1)
make Varjag operational as full carrier - if possible include a catapult at the angled deck
2)
make Minsk an Kiev operational, with all the weapons they have, as escort carriers (jeep carriers) to carrie Helos
3)
build amphibious carriers as a Melbourne derivat; Helicopters from a carrier could provide support to potential amphibious operations - and including a catapult these amphibious carriers also could carrie light ground attack fighters and trainers;

after some years of experience PLAN could start to create new chinese carriers

[MIGleader]

Never as aircraft carriers, the plan should use the for their primary purposes, as heavy aviation crusiers. such ships would dramatically increase the fire power of the fleet and could provide helicopter support for amphib landings. the plan already has varyag and multiple indegedous programs going on, turning the kievs into carriers would take too much time and money.

[PLABUDDY]

Use Kiev and Minsk as helicopter carriers or cruisers..both will be a good idea. Varyag can carry all the fighters necessary and Kiev/Minsk can carry some helicopters or additional fighters. Now combine these 3 ships and some escorts, they will have a great carrier battle group.

If they actually make the CBG like that, The PLAN would have great adventage in a conflict with Chen Shui Bian and it's ROCN. :)

[MIGleader]

dont count on it yet...

i heard a report saying how china was making it;s own light carrier holding 24 planes, and another one saying it was making it's own large carrier holding 50 planes... Varyag+ 2 kiev + 2 slava + 2 52c + 1 52b + 1 956 EM + 2 maanshan
= invincible

now to deal with a us cvbg, add in five facs.

[PLABUDDY]

dont count on it yet...

i heard a report saying how china was making it;s own light carrier holding 24 planes, and another one saying it was making it's own large carrier holding 50 planes... Varyag+ 2 kiev + 2 slava + 2 52c + 1 52b + 1 956 EM + 2 maanshan
= invincible

now to deal with a us cvbg, add in five facs.

Didn't China already deny this. About "Varyag+ 2 kiev + 2 slava + 2 52c + 1 52b + 1 956 EM + 2 maanshan
= invincible" how is that invincible? I bet PLAN wont make a CBG like that. It only sounds invincible but when it comes to real life, it won't work that way.

I say
Varyag + some escort

Kiev/Minsk+ some escort both deployed in East and South China Sea.

[vincelee]

Minsk is actually a casino now, known as MinskWorld. To bring that thing back to operational status would require the gutting of every single compartment.

As for the Varyag, I think you would run into a brick wall with the engines. Remember, it had to be towed across Turkish maritime territory.

PLAN can't afford to bring any of these back to service status. The only possibility is the Varyag being turned into some sort of helocopter carrier, and that's asking a lot.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Are you really Vince?
You don't sound like him.
First of all, you capitalize the first words in your sentences, and secondly, you are actually writing in coherent sentences.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

And you didn't say a single thing about how evil or nazi the PRC is, or how vile mainland Chinese are.

[PLABUDDY]

Minsk is actually a casino now, known as MinskWorld. To bring that thing back to operational status would require the gutting of every single compartment.

As for the Varyag, I think you would run into a brick wall with the engines. Remember, it had to be towed across Turkish maritime territory.

PLAN can't afford to bring any of these back to service status. The only possibility is the Varyag being turned into some sort of helocopter carrier, and that's asking a lot.

Vincelee i know u are a taiwan seperatist and u don't like mainland and it's ppl. Of course we mainlander can bring varyag and kiev back to work if we wanted to.

Now stop being a pain in the ass and say something logic. Thanks. By the way minsk isn't a casino. It's a military theme park. :)

[MIGleader]

the varyag does not have engines yet, vince. perhaps a cicvilian cruser dual use engines would work. the ships aren't that deteriorated. Some sandblasting, welding, and a new paint job and varyag will be good as new.

I believe that the chinese could complete vayag in three years, and make it opereational in five years.

the plan should not worry about minsk and kiev yet. maybe they can ferry helicopters to taiwan, but nothing more yet. or they can send helicopters to patrol the south china seas.

this is not a china-taiwan conversation, so hopefully vince will put his ego away and contribute positively.

[PLABUDDY]

vincelee 去死吧。

Well...about Varyag...it does not have engines yet..which is a quiet big problem.

Who actually knows any countries that are willing to sell China their carrier engines?

About Minsk and Kiev, i agree with you that the PLAN shouldn't worry about those 2 ships yet..but i do not agree that minsk/kiev can only supply helicopters to Taiwan. They should be able to carry more than that..at least some Su-30s or Mig-31s, or in opinion it wouldn't be much of a help for the PLAN in taiwan (no offence to chen shui bian's ppl) or in the South China Sea. Use Varyag alone isn't enough for sea battles. :mad:

[MIGleader]

varyag will do against taiwans fleet.

minsk are kiev are vtol carriers, so it cant carry su's, even if they were, they'd still be too small. flankers need a kutznev size carrier.

i didn't say carrier engine, i said commercial liner dual use engines, like the one on queen mary.

[Obcession]

"Are you really Vince?
You don't sound like him.
First of all, you capitalize the first words in your sentences, and secondly, you are actually writing in coherent sentences."

I agree.

"vincelee 去死吧。"

Let him say more, if he's really the vince we know then we can start insulting him.

"Who actually knows any countries that are willing to sell China their carrier engines?"

Well... I think Spain wanted to build China a carrier before, China refused the deal.

"the plan should not worry about minsk and kiev yet. maybe they can ferry helicopters to taiwan, but nothing more yet. or they can send helicopters to patrol the south china seas."

Use one of them as an AC first and see how it turns out. If it turned out OK without any major problems, use both as AC.

[MIGleader]

you guy don't get my point.

any country will sell you dual use engines, so no problem.

the plan already has it's own indegedous carrier programs, so doing a gorkie on minsk and kiev is expensive and time consuming.

carriers aren't the future for china. the need smaller attack ships and missle destroyers to take on a US cvbg. one or two carriers will be good because it will give china some projection ability, but not too many.

vince hasn't said anything too offensive yet, so be nice to the little $%#@
(for now)

[Gollevainen]

well i've have given my toughts on this matter earlyer, but little refresh might be good.

I personally think that it's quite useless to try comisioning Minsk and Kiev in to PLAN service. Why? First of all those ships are old...Kiev was laid down in july 1970 and minsk december 1972, Now the Soviet shipbuilding quality wasen't the best of the world and these ships weren't good desings from the start. They tended to pitch at the fore in heavy seas. Also, as it been mentioned, the machinery was far from succesfull, all 7 soviet carriers have undergone major fires and all due the same reasons: the unrealible pressure fired steam plants. The ships where in bad shape when they where sold to china and given the time that they are being whitout major overhaul, it's desperate to try and make them operational again. It propaply could be done, in theory, but in practice is just waste of valuable resources...they are just too old to rock'n roll...

Seccondly the ships overall desing features are major handycap. The ships where orginally desinged to be updated Moskva class whit improved helicopter capapility and the ASuW weapon suite that had to be deleted from the Moskvas during the desing date. The V/STOL concept game along only after the Yakolev desing burey succesfully demostrated the Yak-36 prototype to the naval chiefs...The ships where also sort of a compromize for real carriers, the Soviet navy was still recovering from Hrurzevs era and wasen't still ready for real carriers. But now to china. If by some miracle the Kiev and Minsk could be overhauled to the point that they are again usefull, what exactly could china do whit them? China doesen't posses any V/STOL technology and thats leaves the ships only whit helicopters. for my obinion these ships are too big and expensive to serve as a helicopter carrier. The same ammount of money that is needed to refit these ships could easily buy a small Chahri Narubet-style helicopter carrier.

Then there's always the Gorshkov conversion for India...why shouldn't China go ahead whit these ships in similar way...clear up the deck for Ski-jump??
Well Gorshkov was orginally blanned for that kind of conversion, thats why there's no reloads for the SS-N-12 and no SA-N-3 launchers...the Kiev and Minsk are another deal. I've never seen the blueprints of these ships but if you remove so much from these ships foresections it propaply changes dramatically the ships overall balance. Also the hangar base expesially in kiev is way smaller than in Gorshkov, so in that case also the already limited airwing of the Groshkov conversion would be even smaller. And the airwing itself is a proplem. China doesen't have any suitable jets to operate from the carrier. Chinese aircraft manufacturing isen't in the phase that it could start desing carrierbrone aircrafts even from existing models, in this case the J-10. It would just take too long to get the J-10s naval version to work and then the already ageing ships would be totaly overaged. The Su-27/33/J-11 is just too big and the MiG-29 isen't part of the chinese airfleet..

So basicly, in my obinion trying to get these ships operational is just too big effort. The attenion and recources should be focused on the Varyag, wich is far more ideal phase to become the first fixedwing aviation asset of the PLAN.

Now this was my obinion, feel free to comment and give your own wievs...

[MIGleader]

uses:

Training

makeshift helicopter carrier.

screw aircraft! fit it with missles and make it a cruiser.

refurbinish it and sell it to some carrier noob nation.

make mock carriers to scare shit out of US

[Obcession]

Well, we could always take out all the stuff on the ships and do a complete refit...

But I agree, there's no point commisioning them.

However, China desperately needs carrier training. These would do fine for that job.

[vincelee]

Now now, PLABUDDY, it's not nice to tell me to die.

on the issue of engines, to actually replace the engine in the Varyag is going to be problematic;

first you need to take out the engine "block", then the shaft. And although I've never seen the blue prints for the Varyag, I doubt engine accessibility on the scales of your common car was in mind.

And even IF the PLAN some how acquires large maritime engines, these are still civilian use. Remember, TOL operations on carriers constantly require a high steaming speed, and I honestly don't believe Bloody Mary can achieve 30+ knots.

[MIGleader]

thats why you combo those engines with indegedous or french diesels.

vince, are you sure your being yourself today?... your posting positively...

Since china has varyag blueprints, they can make modifications with more ease.

and you only need 20 knots to launch

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Now now, PLABUDDY, it's not nice to tell me to die.

on the issue of engines, to actually replace the engine in the Varyag is going to be problematic;

first you need to take out the engine "block", then the shaft. And although I've never seen the blue prints for the Varyag, I doubt engine accessibility on the scales of your common car was in mind.

And even IF the PLAN some how acquires large maritime engines, these are still civilian use. Remember, TOL operations on carriers constantly require a high steaming speed, and I honestly don't believe Bloody Mary can achieve 30+ knots.

THAT IS NOT HOW VINCE TALKS!
This is definetly a different guy. Even after you guys talking about Taiwan, he still has not send a single thing against China. Weird.

[MIGleader]

sooo true!!

i wish we had one of his old posts to compare...

somethings fishy...
but its got to be the same guy or someone that knew the old vince.
otherwise, he'd be swearing at us wondering what was going on.


but still, keep the subject on plan carriers, not vince.

[Obcession]

Vince the engine is not a problem many EU countries would sell them to us. Civilian ones will work as well, and as someone else said previously, 20+ knots is enough. I know you have to take out the engine blocks etc etc. China already has sufficient technology to build carriers, so taking these out wouldn't be a problem.

[Liberator]

"vincelee 去死吧。"

LMFAO!!! Yeah Vince. 去死吧。

[vincelee]

obcession, my point was not to disregard the feasibility of an engine replacement by the PLAN, my point, if it was a bit unclear, was that the cost effectiveness of such an endeavor is not in the character of the PLAN. You can explain it by the diminishing marginal return, you can explain it by pure tactical speculations, but the out come is the same: the same amount of resources would bring greater benefits elsewhere.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

I agree. China does not need to waste money on carriers when it cannot support those carriers. China needs to build more modern destroyers and frigatese like Type 052C before beginning work on carriers.

[vincelee]

man that mod's fast.

[Obcession]

obcession, my point was not to disregard the feasibility of an engine replacement by the PLAN, my point, if it was a bit unclear, was that the cost effectiveness of such an endeavor is not in the character of the PLAN. You can explain it by the diminishing marginal return, you can explain it by pure tactical speculations, but the out come is the same: the same amount of resources would bring greater benefits elsewhere.

Well it depends on your viewpoint. China needs to get a carrier sonner or later, and to make the Varyag operational so the crew can train on it for a couple of years will make ready for the eventual fully operational and modern carrier the PLAN is going to acquire. Having a carrier is not much more than just deterrent if you have a bunch of inexperienced crew who can't use it properly or to its maximum. Sure, you can buy a couple new SU MKK's with it, but IMHO it's better to train on the Varyag for a couple of years and then get a real operational capable carrier.

[vincelee]

stemming from your logic, you're saying that the net benefit of bringing the Varyag back to operational status, which it has NEVER achieved, is greater than building a new carrier?

I, for one, begs to differ.

[Obcession]

stemming from your logic, you're saying that the net benefit of bringing the Varyag back to operational status, which it has NEVER achieved, is greater than building a new carrier?

I, for one, begs to differ.

I'm saying the only use we have for the Varyag is training, so we can improvise things here and there, to reduce costs, but the Varyag is still needed. Otherwise why buy it? (I know I know, they've learned alot off the Varyag's design, but it's old)

I don't think cost is an issue here, fixing the Varyag won't costs as much as half of what the PLAN needs to buy a new one.

[vincelee]

Cost isn't an issue? That's the kind of thinking leading to the collapse of the Soviet Union, I'd caution you to stay clear of that kind of......irrational exuberance.

Anyway, my line of thought stems from the fact that by building a Chinese carrier and training on it, the PLAN would run into an initial shock, but would totally master carrier operations within a relatively short period of time. That's, of course, using my opinion that there is no imminent need for the PLAN to acquire this type of projection capability.

[Obcession]

Cost isn't an issue? That's the kind of thinking leading to the collapse of the Soviet Union, I'd caution you to stay clear of that kind of......irrational exuberance.

Anyway, my line of thought stems from the fact that by building a Chinese carrier and training on it, the PLAN would run into an initial shock, but would totally master carrier operations within a relatively short period of time. That's, of course, using my opinion that there is no imminent need for the PLAN to acquire this type of projection capability.

"Cost isn't an issue? That's the kind of thinking leading to the collapse of the Soviet Union"

Well it's not like i'm going to spend 11% of my GDP on military...

"but would totally master carrier operations within a relatively short period of time. That's, of course, using my opinion that there is no imminent need for the PLAN to acquire this type of projection capability."

I'd say 5 years minimum. I also think in 5 years the Taiwan issue could be solved. If it is solved, probably in the favour of reunification, then the PRC would have a perfect base to rule the seas of South East Asia. To do that a carrier is needed. Of course there isn't an imminent need for a carrier, but US doesn't really need 12 carriers operational presently, does it? It's really only about deterrence. And China has a lot of enemies to gain deterrence over.

[vincelee]

Taiwan in 5 years? Doubtful.

[Obcession]

The best chance of Taiwan gaining independence is 2008 olympics, but if it doesn't take that opportunity then in 2010 it could probably be solved. Also it depends on which government is in power. If the next election turns out to be in KMT favour, they'd negotiate much more with the PRC about reunification, and that doesn't take 5 years. Once the vote on reunification is passed reunification is bound to happen, and think about it, both sides (pan blue and pan green) are pretty equally matched, so if only one vote on reunification is passed, no matter if there were a hundred other votes previously on not passing it, Taiwan will reunify.

[tphuang]

trust me, Taiwanese people don't want to reunify (this is from my personal experience with all my Taiwanese friends). I like the way it is right now. I do think that if KMT is in power, the relationship across the strait will get better and then Taiwanese people might feel closer to the mainland. Then, things might turn around.

As for the carriers, we don't need them. Just get more subs and destroyers and FACs. If we have to go against a few American carrier groups, all of our surface ships will get destroyed really fast. So carriers would just be sitting ducks. Stick with the submarine development.

[PLABUDDY]

Taiwan in 5 years? Doubtful.
This is a message just to vincelee

大哥啊。。。大陆想打台湾并不是什么很难的事情。。请台湾人民不要小看自己的祖国。。。。8 年的抗日战争的不是容易的。

大陆我相信一定会在今后5到8年内有航空母舰作战组。。。所以如果你不想看到。。请移据月亮。

请用中文回帖子 vincelee :)
台湾来的二杆子 请回dan_tyrant@yahoo.ca

Sorry guys that i typed it in chinese,but this is something i want vincelee to know.and it's important. :)

[vincelee]

you know, PLABUDDY, I can't really read Chinese anymore, so you'll have to translate that for me.

[PLABUDDY]

trust me, Taiwanese people don't want to reunify (this is from my personal experience with all my Taiwanese friends). I like the way it is right now. I do think that if KMT is in power, the relationship across the strait will get better and then Taiwanese people might feel closer to the mainland. Then, things might turn around.

As for the carriers, we don't need them. Just get more subs and destroyers and FACs. If we have to go against a few American carrier groups, all of our surface ships will get destroyed really fast. So carriers would just be sitting ducks. Stick with the submarine development.

what do u mean we don't need carriers....how do u expect to fight with good air defence at open sea without carriers?? Think about it..can submarines carry air planes?? NO i don't think so! Plus i doubt that our navy will be totally destroyed if we face american CBGs....don't underestimate our navy and over estimate someone else's. :) Thanks.

[PLABUDDY]

you know, PLABUDDY, I can't really read Chinese anymore, so you'll have to translate that for me.
and i say to u...f@%k that a$#h@le..ur liar..if u still can't read it..get a dictionary or ask ur mom to read it for u. :D :D :o

[vincelee]

no, I seriously can't read Chinese anymore, haven't used it in almost 10 years.

[PLABUDDY]

no, I seriously can't read Chinese anymore, haven't used it in almost 10 years.
....ask ur mom for help then... :(

[PLABUDDY]

Besides the fag vincelee, who knows what kind of arnament would Varyag be equipped with once complete? Will it be able to lunch moskit and sunburn?

[Gollevainen]

now more talking about somebody's username...those days are gone and i seriously don't want to continue it here at the new forum. Let the posting speak for itself.

[chinawhite]

Minsk is already in use. sorry guys ;)

complete for MIG-23s and Q-5 attack planes

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/1281/minskdock6yt.jpg

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/3231/minskisland8vj.jpg

[Gollevainen]

...i'm hoping there was a irony that i missed...You know that the Minsk is lately been held at display in china and it acted as amjusmentpark...and these pics clearly shows it...now please say that you where only joking...

[chinawhite]

notice the sacarism in my post. ;)

*hint hint*

[Gollevainen]

thank god...you almoust friegten the old man to deaht.

But we are trying to make this new forum much more proffesional than the other so please no more these kind of jokes outside offtopic forum. And this aplyes to all and means all posting, in the old forum we where more tolerant to BS but that have been changed. So now onwards, if you don't have anything to say, then accept it and don't post nonsense or pointless chatting...there is no post race so you don't have to try and awnser to every topic regardless wheter you have anything to say or not.

[chinawhite]

Gollevainen i posted the pictures because these people were asking what happened to the mirsk/could it be put into service.

i posted to show that the mirsk is now a museum. and already has a use

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

i posted a image of the mirsk with a brightly coloured flight deck with obsolete aircraft and a whole bunch of tourist walking around. i thought people coud pick up what i was trying to say at first glance

[Gollevainen]

well mayby i jumped bit too fast, but i'm given clear orders to try keep the level of discussion high, and i said most of the things to all, not spesificly to you.

[IDonT]

Besides the fag vincelee, who knows what kind of arnament would Varyag be equipped with once complete? Will it be able to lunch moskit and sunburn?


From a naval point of view, the Varyag is an inefficient design. 78,000 tons and can only carry 1-2 squadrons of aircraft is a waste of steel. The USN Midway class weighs roughly the same displacement and can carry 70 aircraft, France's Charles de Gaulle, with 45,000 ton displacement, can carry up to 45 aircraft.

The main problem is that this ship was not designed as a carrier in the truest sense, but as a aircraft carrying missle cruiser. It was meant to defend the Soviet Union's SSBN bastions from the USN, not project power. It's airwing is for airdefense alone, with the 16 SS-N-19 Shipwreck missiles as its main anti-ship weapon.

My guess is that the PLAN is better off learning from its design and building a more efficient carrier. It is cheaper in the long run.

[Gollevainen]

My guess is that the PLAN is better off learning from its design and building a more efficient carrier. It is cheaper in the long run.

Well it took soviets three generation of aircapaple ships to get to the Kuznetsov/Varyag class, How would you descripe the ways that china, whit no experience of building even cruiser size warships whatsoever can achomplised something better?

And about the airwing of varyag/kuznetsov, you have to remeber that soviets planned over 20 helicopters abroad and the ship was still capaple to operate 12 Su-33 and 16 Yak-41 (or MiG-29 as it almoust identical in terms of the size whit the Yak-41). Also Soviets planned that the whole airwing was stored under the flightdeck in the hangar (153m x 26). Now the Su-33 is large, even larger than Tomcat, so replacing that whit smaller aircraft you have whole lotta potential in your hands. If you come up whit theoretical airgroup of smaller (even smaller than MiG-29) aircarfts, lets say more like the J-10 size, whit helicopter fleet compered to French and American airwings and taking full potential of the deck parking, then voilá you have airwing not so far behind the Midway class.

But that was only theoretical thinking. As i said earlyer, china dosen't yet posses the capapility to make carrier capaple aircrafts, so it have to settle whit the Su-33 (or naval conversion of the J-11). The Varyag is suficient enough to fill the role as first operational carrier of PLAN and in my obinion they should go ahead on that, no more wasting time. If they start to build a carrier from the scrats, it would take a decade or so to get the bluewater version of the PLAN in to the seven seas...

[MIGleader]

don't worry. they're getting the 51c's, 956em's, and possibly two maanshans in the near future. it plan can upgrade it's old destroyers to be able to perform long range patro and escort, it can put the more modern ones in a carrier battle group.

you can always buy sea flankers for the carrier, so it should be no big deal.
china does not need a super carrier, but one rather like india's.

32 aircraft will do fine. the plan does not need to project. varyag will alow it to project in asia, but the plans primary opponent will be a US cvbg.

[IDonT]

Well it took soviets three generation of aircapaple ships to get to the Kuznetsov/Varyag class, How would you descripe the ways that china, whit no experience of building even cruiser size warships whatsoever can achomplised something better?

And about the airwing of varyag/kuznetsov, you have to remeber that soviets planned over 20 helicopters abroad and the ship was still capaple to operate 12 Su-33 and 16 Yak-41 (or MiG-29 as it almoust identical in terms of the size whit the Yak-41). Also Soviets planned that the whole airwing was stored under the flightdeck in the hangar (153m x 26). Now the Su-33 is large, even larger than Tomcat, so replacing that whit smaller aircraft you have whole lotta potential in your hands. If you come up whit theoretical airgroup of smaller (even smaller than MiG-29) aircarfts, lets say more like the J-10 size, whit helicopter fleet compered to French and American airwings and taking full potential of the deck parking, then voilá you have airwing not so far behind the Midway class.

But that was only theoretical thinking. As i said earlyer, china dosen't yet posses the capapility to make carrier capaple aircrafts, so it have to settle whit the Su-33 (or naval conversion of the J-11). The Varyag is suficient enough to fill the role as first operational carrier of PLAN and in my obinion they should go ahead on that, no more wasting time. If they start to build a carrier from the scrats, it would take a decade or so to get the bluewater version of the PLAN in to the seven seas...


It takes more than just changing the size of the aircraft or the composition of the airwing to make this aircraft more efficient.

First, its hanger does not go all the way to the front because that space has the launchers of the SS-19 shipwreck missiles.

Second, its lack of catapult means that more deck area will used to launched the planes than parking. It's whole front end where the ski jump is useless for deck parking.

Money use to refitt this carrier, is better suited somewhere else. Such as, building a brand new one, more destroyers, amphibious assault ships, etc.

[MIGleader]

if the plan wants a large, decent carrier and fast, they will use varyag. the job is mostly done for them. compromising some aircraft for anti-ship missles is not necccerily bad. those missles can help the carrier attack other ships and protect itself.

since carriers arn't the future for the plan, getting a few small ones wouldn't hurt.

[Neko]

The PLAN doesn't need a full fledged carrier. They could make do with a few good-sized LPHs with maybe some HQ-9 to help defend itself.

[Gollevainen]

It takes more than just changing the size of the aircraft or the composition of the airwing to make this aircraft more efficient.

First, its hanger does not go all the way to the front because that space has the launchers of the SS-19 shipwreck missiles.

Second, its lack of catapult means that more deck area will used to launched the planes than parking. It's whole front end where the ski jump is useless for deck parking.



first of all about those changing aircroups, i was talking about theory. Seccondly i know that the Kuznetsovs hangar leght is limited by the Granit missile battery. The widht of the hangar is the thing most catch my eye, 26 meters (De Gaulle have 29 meters) thats another feature wich tell about the soviets faults on carrier desings...And about the deckpark, If you take closer look of Kuznetsovs landing deck you will notice that theres a plenty of room for deckparking wheter the ski-jump is in full use or not. About 15 planes...

Money use to refitt this carrier, is better suited somewhere else. Such as, building a brand new one, more destroyers, amphibious assault ships, etc

i'm keen to see your proofs wich you based your believe that China can build it's own aircraft carrier. And refitting Varyag is way less expensive and timeconsuming that starting to desing and build an indegenious carrier.

[MIGleader]

according to some sources, china already has at least two indegedous carrier programs. Varyaqg has the potential to hold an adequate force of planes. just cause that the soviets didn't make full use of kutznev dosn't mean the chinese can't.

[Gollevainen]

according to some sources, china already has at least two indegedous carrier programs. Varyaqg has the potential to hold an adequate force of planes. just cause that the soviets didn't make full use of kutznev dosn't mean the chinese can't.

...yeas the famous "some sources"...but if it's true think about the first indegenious chinese fighter programs...J-10 is the first one even maked to the prototype phase (well the J-12 did it also, but it was born to be useless) after some 40 years....

[IDonT]

i'm keen to see your proofs wich you based your believe that China can build it's own aircraft carrier. And refitting Varyag is way less expensive and timeconsuming that starting to desing and build an indegenious carrier.

All I'm saying that the Varyag is a resource hog. Its refit will drain money that is better used for other endevours such as more destroyers, subs, etc.

[Gollevainen]

All I'm saying that the Varyag is a resource hog. Its refit will drain money that is better used for other endevours such as more destroyers, subs, etc.


Well getting aircraft carrier will drain money, wheter it's new or old one being refitted.

[IDonT]

Well getting aircraft carrier will drain money, wheter it's new or old one being refitted.


True...but a newer one is a better investment.

[Gollevainen]

Yeas but to go whit completely indegenious and new carrier will take time. Too much time. Chinese navy will be badly underpowered before it, as it have been so thruwards it's history. Varyag is like gift from the gods to PLAN carrier plans and it would be very unvice to let this change go away...

China is rising and to accelrate it's flourishing powerprotection ability, the carrier is the key element to must be in service....

Indegenious projects can and they will follow Varyag, as we know a single carrier isent' suficient enough.

[Neko]

The chinese do not need a carrier to flourish. The carrier itself is going by the wayside; it is the submarine that will win wars these days.


I say this fully knowing that I'd rather still be in the BB glory days. :(

[PLABUDDY]

The chinese do not need a carrier to flourish. The carrier itself is going by the wayside; it is the submarine that will win wars these days.


I say this fully knowing that I'd rather still be in the BB glory days. :(


Please...we are saying why does china need carreirs in here not whether they do or they don't. Of course China will need carriers sooner or later...here we all prefer sooner because the modern sea battle requires carriers for air defence. A good sumbarine force isn't enough for China at all not now not ever. Without a carrier, China's navy will forever stay green water!

[Gollevainen]

The chinese do not need a carrier to flourish. The carrier itself is going by the wayside; it is the submarine that will win wars these days.


I say this fully knowing that I'd rather still be in the BB glory days. :(


is my english once again fooled me...i'l think i said chinese POWER PROTECTION is flourishing, not the carriers...

[chinawhite]

and he said that china doesn't need carriers to flourish.

your english did fool you again :)

[Gollevainen]

I understood what HE ment, the question was from my side...and anyway, powerprotection is the maintask of superpower's navyes and carrier is a must in that field. you cannot powerproject whit subs...

[IDonT]

I understood what HE ment, the question was from my side...and anyway, powerprotection is the maintask of superpower's navyes and carrier is a must in that field. you cannot powerproject whit subs...


I could not have said it better myself. The Soviet Union rely mainly on sub and were embarassed by in the Cuban Missile Crisis on its in ability to project its influence on Cuba.

After Cuba, the Soviet Navy under an ambitious project to built a carrier fleet resulting in the Movska, Kiev, Kuznetsov, and ultimately the cancelled Ulyanovsk Class.

[MIGleader]

Would china try to do a similar thing?...

as I said, having a superprojection force like US leavse you with certain vulnerbilities. all china needs to do is project in asia, leaving subs to handle the world.

[IDonT]

Here are the Indian Refit of the Gorshkov (Kiev class).

IF PLAN refits the Minsk and Kiev, it could look like this.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Gorshkov4.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Gorshkov8.jpg
Before

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Gorshkov9.jpg

After

[IDonT]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Gorshkov6.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Gorshkov3.jpg

[MIGleader]

I like the 2nd pic. thats what the plan should do, make them helicopter carrying heavy crusiers. turnign them into carriers is a waste of money and time right now. china should build a feww indegedous light carriers (30000-40000 tons) to supplement varyag. turning minsk and kiev into carriers is not as easy as coverting gorshkov.

[IDonT]

I like the 2nd pic. thats what the plan should do, make them helicopter carrying heavy crusiers. turnign them into carriers is a waste of money and time right now. china should build a feww indegedous light carriers (30000-40000 tons) to supplement varyag. turning minsk and kiev into carriers is not as easy as coverting gorshkov.

That's true. The Gorshkov is a little younger than its sisterships. THe Kievs, on their original configuration, were failures as carriers though.

[MIGleader]

also, gorkie had a slightly different design than her sisters which was intended for a full carrier refit.

[Sczepan]

Minsk and Kiew could become powerfull heavy aviation crusers by making them operational with there original weapons (or replace them with newest generation) and new engines;
this ships could support the full-size aircraft carrier Varjag in a CBG at the one hand and also support amphibious operations by helos (and additonal some helo-carriers) at the other hand;
they also could work to escort commercial shipping (convoi) in times of crisis at threaten and dangerous trading routes;

today there are part of theme parks, but this could be a temporary interruption to make a profit and finance the rebuilding of these ships including new engines ...

[MIGleader]

cruisers all the way. since china has no vtols, the crusiers can ferry helicopters. a wing of attack copters like wz-10 would be very powerful.

minsk and kiev have a huge amount of missles. they would provide the plan with amazing firepower. they would be a good alternative to slava, since china already owns them. engines are no problem. france, russia, and most civilian cruiser companies would be able to offer their engines.

[IDonT]

cruisers all the way. since china has no vtols, the crusiers can ferry helicopters. a wing of attack copters like wz-10 would be very powerful.

minsk and kiev have a huge amount of missles. they would provide the plan with amazing firepower. they would be a good alternative to slava, since china already owns them. engines are no problem. france, russia, and most civilian cruiser companies would be able to offer their engines.


For the cost to refit and out fit Minsk, PLAN can build more destroyers and helo carriers that can offer more combat capability collectively than the Minsk by itself.

[Sczepan]

a wing of attack copters like wz-10 would be very powerful.
....or the famous KA-52 “Alligator” helicopter http://www.mosnews.com/images/p/10291.shtml
- indeed - and don't forgot sub-hunting, SAR and transport helos
-- sub hunting to protect the fleet against enemy subs
-- SAR are usefull by supporting a full size carrier like Varjag (american carriers all times have one "stand by" near the carrier when aircrafts are starting and landing) to help by accidents - also could be used to help sailors of sinking ships in times of war
-- transport to supply the fleet and to support amphibious operations

[PLABUDDY]

well yes....it would be a good idea to convert minsk and kiev into aircraft carrying cruisers..this would give great ability to the PLAN and its future CBG. However the questions is that would the PLAN actually go with such a plan? Re-fit Varyag isn't going to be easy and it will be costly....now re-fit kiev/minsk at the same time...well..i don't know..what do u guys think? :)

[MIGleader]

refit varyag=definite yes

refit kiev and minsk=optional, and after varyag is done.

[Sczepan]

the hull and something more seems to be refittet to use the ships as part of military theme parks, now they make a profit and finance these parts of rebuilding of both ships ....
but this "aera of theme park" could be a temporary interruption; the presentation in theme-park looks like showing the ships by offficial friendship visiting of foreign harbours ;)
it would be intersting to see, whether the engines ar replaced or not :)

[PLABUDDY]

the hull and something more seems to be refittet to use the ships as part of military theme parks, now they make a profit and finance these parts of rebuilding of both ships ....
but this "aera of theme park" could be a temporary interruption; the presentation in theme-park looks like showing the ships by offficial friendship visiting of foreign harbours ;)
it would be intersting to see, whether the engines ar replaced or not :)


Well is minsk still part of that theme park?? I don't like what they have done to that carrier...very disrespectful to the ship!! :)

[sumdud]

no, I seriously can't read Chinese anymore, haven't used it in almost 10 years. ..................

You forgot your tongue...............

As for China, it should not be aggressive on carriers, but I no doubt say that China needs a carrier, preferably 3.

I don't think China should mess with Kiev or Minsk at all. They are old, and refitting them is a kick in the ass(VERY costly). Plus, the navy does not own them. They are useless anyway.

I think China should if possible refit Varyag into a carrier, though.

Varyag in my build is efficient.
If you count the person to plane ratio, the US CVN has the worst efficiency.
But no doubt do the French has the most efficient carrier. Low displacement to plane AND low person to plane ratio.

I don't see the point of putting ASMs on CVs though.

[bd popeye]

If you count the person to plane ratio, the US CVN has the worst efficiency.

Are you refering to the fact that a USN CV has over 5000 personell?..

I never gave that much thought. We always felt that we never had enough people to do the job. ;)

If you ever served on a USN CV you would understand why the crew is so large. The crew is not just suppourting the CV. It is assiting the entire battle group in various task.

The US will be reducing the crew size in future CV's...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/cvx.htm

LHA/LHD type ships have a crew of 1,000 + 1,900 Marines..air wing included. They carry up to 35 aircraft depending on the mission.

Oh by the way the USN has 12 CV's..12 LHD/LHA's.

[Sczepan]

Well is minsk still part of that theme park?? I don't like what they have done to that carrier...very disrespectful to the ship!! :)
Minsk is the center of these theme park. Shenzhen Minsk Aircraft Carrier World was officially opened to the public on September 27, 2000. So far, it has attracted millions of tourists home and abroad with great success. By the end of 2002, it had received 3.5 million tourists, with ticket income approaching 400 million yuan. The company that ran the theme park in south China aboard the retired Soviet aircraft carrier Minsk has been declared bankrupt, the official Xinhua News Agency reported March 2005, after bankrupt of D'Long International (which financed the Minsk Park Company).

So whats to go with the ship when the Minsk Company - which looked out for a white knighter - will be closed?
The Minsk, which was very crappy, was overhauled, may be including some military equipment like torpedoe tubes, anti-ship and air defence missiles. The "fun-equipments" like food kiosk could be removed soon. Also these terrible coloured GROUND ATTACK AIRCRAFTs could be removed, replaced by chinese Naval Helicopters like the KA 28, equipped with dipping sonar and sonobouys including ASW variants and search and rescue (SAR) variants. Also Z-8 Naval Helicopter and Z-8A Army Transport Helicopter and Z-9C Naval Helicopter could be fit at these ships .....
and after that you will see a overhauled heavy aviation crusier, which could be used in his primary purpose, if the ship also got new engines.

May be the PLAN could replace the older weapons (like the SS-N-12) by newest generation (like 3M-80E Supersonic Anti-Ship Missile (SS-N-22)), because the plan have reportedly received over 100 3M-80E Moskit missiles from Russia. But thats not necessery to form a powerful military cruiser.
After all - to me it seems the ship only use new engines, and this could be done without problems. So the MINSK (and additional the KIEW) would become the backbone of future chinese CBG ......

[PLABUDDY]

Minsk is the center of these theme park. Shenzhen Minsk Aircraft Carrier World was officially opened to the public on September 27, 2000. So far, it has attracted millions of tourists home and abroad with great success. By the end of 2002, it had received 3.5 million tourists, with ticket income approaching 400 million yuan. The company that ran the theme park in south China aboard the retired Soviet aircraft carrier Minsk has been declared bankrupt, the official Xinhua News Agency reported March 2005, after bankrupt of D'Long International (which financed the Minsk Park Company).

So whats to go with the ship when the Minsk Company - which looked out for a white knighter - will be closed?
The Minsk, which was very crappy, was overhauled, may be including some military equipment like torpedoe tubes, anti-ship and air defence missiles. The "fun-equipments" like food kiosk could be removed soon. Also these terrible coloured GROUND ATTACK AIRCRAFTs could be removed, replaced by chinese Naval Helicopters like the KA 28, equipped with dipping sonar and sonobouys including ASW variants and search and rescue (SAR) variants. Also Z-8 Naval Helicopter and Z-8A Army Transport Helicopter and Z-9C Naval Helicopter could be fit at these ships .....
and after that you will see a overhauled heavy aviation crusier, which could be used in his primary purpose, if the ship also got new engines.

May be the PLAN could replace the older weapons (like the SS-N-12) by newest generation (like 3M-80E Supersonic Anti-Ship Missile (SS-N-22)), because the plan have reportedly received over 100 3M-80E Moskit missiles from Russia. But thats not necessery to form a powerful military cruiser.
After all - to me it seems the ship only use new engines, and this could be done without problems. So the MINSK (and additional the KIEW) would become the backbone of future chinese CBG ......

So i see from your post that u think re-fitting Minsk/Kiev as heavy cruiser is going to be good for the PLAN..i agree with equipping them with helicopters and let Varyag carry Su-27s and Su-30s. I once read from an internet article that some of the weapons on Minsk are still in working condition..therefore..if the PLAN can re-fit Minsk and Varyag at same time and commission them one by one,it would be a great boost for them.

Also although minsk/kiev are not owned by the PLAN, they can still take possession of the ship(s) if they wanted to. So my guess is that the PLAN will first finish Varyag, then they will re-fit minsk/kiev or both ships and begin making a PLAN CBG. :)

[MIGleader]

the il-76's are not directly owned by the plaaf, but it uses them. i heard ther kiev was in some debt. maybe the plan can buy it.

[PLABUDDY]

the il-76's are not directly owned by the plaaf, but it uses them. i heard ther kiev was in some debt. maybe the plan can buy it.
well if the PLAN commssions any of the 3 soviet carriers it will give the states a headache

[Sczepan]

well if the PLAN commssions any of the 3 soviet carriers it will give the states a headache
and what about comissions of all these 3 carriers
Varjag as a carrier
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=75&page=1&pp=13,

Minsk and Kiew as part of escort group :)

and some redesigned Melbourne derivat as amphibious carriers
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=122&page=1&pp=13

not headache but heart attack ;)

[bd popeye]

The PLAN with three CV/LPH type ships? Maybe 10 years from now but not in the forseeable future..

US having a heart attack over this? Naw!

No big deal really. The US is planning to move a CVN to Guam or Hawaii. :)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200408/s1174254.htm

And if that's not enough the USN will have LA class subs shadow those ships everywhere they go! :)

[swimmerXC]

It would be Rumsfeld who has a heart attack and lecture more to the rest of the world about how china spends so much on military and are threathen peace...
i find it very ironic that somebody lecture about military budget when THEY are in charge of the BIGGEST in the world...
god, i hope he never runs for president... but who know DICK was Bush Senior Secretary of Defense...

[bd popeye]

It would be Rumsfeld who has a heart attack and lecture more to the rest of the world about how china spends so much on military and are threathen peace...
i find it very ironic that somebody lecture about military budget when THEY are in charge of the BIGGEST in the world...
god, i hope he never runs for president... but who know DICK was Bush Senior Secretary of Defense...

No he would not. He knows he has 12 CV's...

Run for President? Rumsfield? Oh no :eek: . He'd never win. He is not well liked. He's just a carreer buearcrat that knows all the "right people"...Personally I don't like him. He is very condessending...Can't stand him.

[PLABUDDY]

of course it would be a heart attack for the US if China commissions 3 carriers..i mean why wouldn't it be? Sure they can move some of their forces to guam and japan..but don't forget russia up there. The russians would also be concerned and they would therefore sell more weapons or add more forces in the pacific. So you know what don't just say oh it won't be...dont over estimate the US and underestimate China and Russia..thanks. :)

[Gollevainen]

I would habe a heart attack if chinese would comisioned Kiev and Minsk...no way, i've stated it several times...leave those old warhorses rest in peace...(tough some more respectable retirement would be nice, not act as some freaking casinos...)

[MIGleader]

taiwan and japan would have a heart attack if china got three carriers. the us would just build more of their own carriers.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

taiwan and japan would have a heart attack if china got three carriers. the us would just build more of their own carriers.

China doesn't have enough destroyers/frigates to protect a carrier battle group. At best, if China built a few more modern ASW and AA destroyers, then they might be able to support one carrier task force. They could put all three carriers in one task force though, that would require less support ships.

[MIGleader]

when china gets its new destroyers and frigates, it will have enough ships for a carrier croup.

minsk and kiev can defend themselfs and other ships perfectly fine. they are loaded to the teeth with ashm and aam.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

when china gets its new destroyers and frigates, it will have enough ships for a carrier croup.

minsk and kiev can defend themselfs and other ships perfectly fine. they are loaded to the teeth with ashm and aam.

Minsk and Kiev are very vulnerable to submarines. And also, they lack the systems to defend themselves from large-scale air assualts. Finally, any dedicated surface taskforce of missile destroyers and frigates can take down two unprotected carriers.

[MIGleader]

since when di taiwan have such a force? i never said send them in alone. just that if they are alone, they can protect themselves as they retreat. the can fitted with new sonar for subs. they already have torpedoes and rockets.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

since when di taiwan have such a force? i never said send them in alone. just that if they are alone, they can protect themselves as they retreat. the can fitted with new sonar for subs. they already have torpedoes and rockets.

Well, in any serious struggle with the USN, the PLAN will have to provide serious protection for its carriers. And shipborned sonar could not detect the newer-genetation quiet subs until the subs are within their torpedo range. That is why you need a screen of anti-sub ships.

[rommel]

Minsk and Kiev are very vulnerable to submarines. And also, they lack the systems to defend themselves from large-scale air assualts. Finally, any dedicated surface taskforce of missile destroyers and frigates can take down two unprotected carriers.

Hum... armament of the Minsk and Kiev

2 SA-N-3 Goblet twin launchers [72]
2 SA-N-4 Gecko twin launchers [40]
8 SS-N-12 Sandbox tubes [16]

4 76.2-mm/59-cal AA (2 twin)
8 30-mm/65-cal AK-630 close-in (8 multi-barrel)

10 21-in (533-mm) torpedo tubes

[MIGleader]

your forgetting its anti sub rockets and the fact it can carry helixs or attack copters.

[rommel]

your forgetting its anti sub rockets and the fact it can carry helixs or attack copters.

12 or 13 Yak-38 Forger VSTOL
14 to 17 Ka-25 Hormone or Ka-27/29 Helix

I didn't find it for the AS rocket, sorry

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Lets put it this way...
Minsk and Kiev engage a US Carrier Battle Group. What happens?
Now, a PLAN naval task force with 3 carriers, 10 modern destroyers, and a few dozen outdated frigates and destroyers encounter a US Carrier Battle Group. What happens?

[ger_mark]

wont happend
the americans would always know the position of all plan ships

[FriedRiceNSpice]

wont happend
the americans would always know the position of all plan ships

How does that change anything? Maybe the Americans see Chinese carrier group, so then they have to move their carrier group to battle the Chinese group?

[MIGleader]

varyag, minsnk and kiev, 52 b, c, 51 b, c, maanshan, jiangwei 2, sovs and em sovs vs a nimitz, two burkes, a tico, and some sonarships and patro vessels.

not even a challenge. now this would never happen.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

varyag, minsnk and kiev, 52 b, c, 51 b, c, maanshan, jiangwei 2, sovs and em sovs vs a nimitz, two burkes, a tico, and some sonarships and patro vessels.

not even a challenge. now this would never happen.

What do you mean not even a challenge? I'd say the forces are evenly matched. And you'll have 2 SovEs, 2 SovEMs, and 2 Chinese-built SovEMs along with the Luhais and 051C to form the cream of the Chinese destroyer force.

And whatever happened to the Shenzhen-Class destroyers? If you look on Sinodefence, they don't even have a page for the Shenzhens anymore. Was it renamed?

[tphuang]

Lets put it this way...
Minsk and Kiev engage a US Carrier Battle Group. What happens?
Now, a PLAN naval task force with 3 carriers, 10 modern destroyers, and a few dozen outdated frigates and destroyers encounter a US Carrier Battle Group. What happens?
to attack Taiwan, China doesn't really need 3 carriers. That's why converting the Minsk and Kiev into cruisers that can carry some ASW helicopters make the most sense.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

to attack Taiwan, China doesn't really need 3 carriers. That's why converting the Minsk and Kiev into cruisers that can carry some ASW helicopters make the most sense.

Once again, I was referring to a major US-China conflict that could potentially take place out of the Taiwan theatre. China doesn't need any carriers against Taiwan. All Chinese fighters except for the J-7s are capable of flying missions against Taiwan 24/7 using mainland airbases.

[MIGleader]

What do you mean not even a challenge? I'd say the forces are evenly matched. And you'll have 2 SovEs, 2 SovEMs, and 2 Chinese-built SovEMs along with the Luhais and 051C to form the cream of the Chinese destroyer force.

And whatever happened to the Shenzhen-Class destroyers? If you look on Sinodefence, they don't even have a page for the Shenzhens anymore. Was it renamed?

shenzhen? never heard of it. the lone 51c class was called shenzhen, but nothing more.

[PLABUDDY]

of course it won't be a challenge. 2 kiev class, varyag, 2 sovermenny , 2 52b 52c 2 kilo, 2 51s..man....what a cbg!!

[bd popeye]

of course it won't be a challenge. 2 kiev class, varyag, 2 sovermenny , 2 52b 52c 2 kilo, 2 51s..man....what a cbg!!

Yes it would be a challange. But the USN has been operating CV's since 1922. That's 83 years. While the PLAN has been operating CV's since ..well never! Do not under estimate the ablity of one USN Carrier Strike Group(CSG) to do battle. Afer all the USN CSG is real. And a PLAN CVBG is a dream in some in this forums members eyes. No offense to anyone. Just facts.

Carrier Strike Group.

http://www.sandersresearch.com/Sanders/Admin/NewsManager/Images/StoryImages/Carrier%20Battle%20Group.jpg

[IDonT]

of course it won't be a challenge. 2 kiev class, varyag, 2 sovermenny , 2 52b 52c 2 kilo, 2 51s..man....what a cbg!!

Replace the Kilos with the 093 SSN. Those diesels can't keep up.

Discard the Kievs and use to money to build more 052 C's and B's. Then you have a modest carrier group.

[IDonT]

Here is a better pic of a CSG

http://www.howard.navy.mil/images/rimpac.jpg

[bd popeye]

Nice pictures IDont. Like that picture of Pearl Harbor. Did you notice the USS Missouri? It is a musuem now.

Replace the Kilos with the 093 SSN. Those diesels can't keep up.

True enough. Those desiels can't keep up. They can only go about 20 knots. They were designed to operate in littoral waters.(close to shore)

Back to the picture. How many nations would love to have just one USS Tarawa class LHA as pictured?? That is the USS Tarawa LHA-1 by the way.

[IDonT]

Nice pictures IDont. Like that picture of Pearl Harbor. Did you notice the USS Missouri? It is a musuem now.

yeah I notice that. The Japanese navy joins in Rim PAC. It must be awkward for them seing the Arizona next to the Missouri.

[PLABUDDY]

yeah I notice that. The Japanese navy joins in Rim PAC. It must be awkward for them seing the Arizona next to the Missouri.
isn't the battle ship in the pic too old to be in modern navies?

[IDonT]

isn't the battle ship in the pic too old to be in modern navies?


Its a museum.
Its sort of symbolic. USS Arizona started US involvement in WWII, USS Missouri ended it.

[bd popeye]

yeah I notice that. The Japanese navy joins in Rim PAC. It must be awkward for them seing the Arizona next to the Missouri.

That's an interesting comment. My son's first ship did a RIMPCC about three years ago. They operated with some JMSDF ships. He said they were squared away and know what they are doing. When all the RIMPAC forces were in Pearl Harbor he got to visit a JMSDF ship. Don't know what kind. He said it was very similar to the Spruance class he was on at that time. As for the Japanese reaction to Pearl Harbor. My son said the Japanese are very intrested in the history of Pearl and did a lot of sightseeing. are very intrested

You know the JMSDF is the second largest navy in the world.

isn't the battle ship in the pic too old to be in modern navies?

That's the USS Missouri as Idont posted. It is a musuem now. It is very symbolic that it is in Pearl Harbor along with the USS Arizona. The Arizona was sunk on 7 December 1941. 1,177 American sailors were killed on board the Arizona. The Japanese surrendered on the USS Missouri on 2 September 1945.

[PLABUDDY]

um....i saw from an internet article that Varyag will be commissioned by 2012 and China is buying Su-33s from Russia. What do u guys think about this? :confused:

[MIGleader]

2012? you can complete an already 70% finished carrier in around 2 years and get it commisioned in 3. china has not made any su-33 purchases yet as far as i know.

[PLABUDDY]

2012? you can complete an already 70% finished carrier in around 2 years and get it commisioned in 3. china has not made any su-33 purchases yet as far as i know.


Well...we never know...i heard China now has a new fighter, J13, it is clamimed to be as capable as the F-22s. :)

[MIGleader]

j-13 wont be rolling out for another 10 years. where did you hear this?

[PLABUDDY]

j-13 wont be rolling out for another 10 years. where did you hear this?

I heard this from the CCTV in bejing. Also Jeff Head could u add the kiev class carriers in the pic of the future carrier group and post it in here or send it to me?

I would really appreciate it.
Thanks Jeff.

[bd popeye]

2012? you can complete an already 70% finished carrier in around 2 years and get it commisioned in 3. china has not made any su-33 purchases yet as far as i know.

Depends on what shape the basic hull is in and how difficult it will be to install a new powerplant. Don't forget the installition of electronics. But yes I think it can be done.

[Jeff Head]

I heard this from the CCTV in bejing. Also Jeff Head could u add the kiev class carriers in the pic of the future carrier group and post it in here or send it to me?

I would really appreciate it.
Thanks Jeff.

Here is a Kiev class added to the overhead pic...also added a 51C. Just a "what if". I will post it on the other thread as well "What will the 1st PLAN CBG look like?"

We'll call this a "Heavy CBG":

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/sat_plan_hvycbg.jpg

[MIGleader]

i doubt the plan would go for something that ambitious in the near future. the kievs, as far as i know, will most likely not be converted to fulll carriers. maybe an indegedous light carrier will escort the veryag into combat.

[Jeff Head]

I tend to agree...but you never know. The two Kiev class hulls seem in pretty good shape and if the PRC wanted to, they are certainly capable of outfitting them.

I believe it is more clear that something specific is planned for the Varyag.

I posted that satellite depiction in response to another poster's request as an indication of what "might" happen, not any kind of statement that anything specific is planned.

[TJJH]

Hey Jeff, could you redo the CBG so that its more submarine centric? We might need another view for different possibilities. Or if anyone here has the view of many light carriers that'll be good as well.

[Jeff Head]

Hey Jeff, could you redo the CBG so that its more submarine centric?

What did you have in mind?

[TJJH]

I'm thinking perhaps a pack of 6 type 093 submarines (have to get something much, much better later on). The Varyag as the base of operations, one Kiev class, and 3 type 52C DDGs. Of course support vessels would have to be there as well. But I think you get the general gist of it. :)

EDIT: Or to be even more daring and unconventional add a type 094 SSBN in place of the Kiev.

[Jeff Head]

I'm thinking perhaps a pack of 6 type 093 submarines

I do not believe they would commit that many type 093s to one CBG. It will be quite a while before they even have that many...if they don'ty start building something different before.

They might add a couple of the older SSN's closer in, and maybe go as high as three Type 093s.

Anyhow, I will doctor that photo to show it if you like, but it will not be until Friday.

[PLABUDDY]

I do not believe they would commit that many type 093s to one CBG. It will be quite a while before they even have that many...if they don'ty start building something different before.

They might add a couple of the older SSN's closer in, and maybe go as high as three Type 093s.

Anyhow, I will doctor that photo to show it if you like, but it will not be until Friday.

So Jeff are u going to show us the new pic u have?

[Jeff Head]

Sorry, I have been tuned into the hurricane hitting the Texas coast. I have a lot of friends and family down there.

I will try and get the subs added and up on this thread tomorrow.

[BrotherofSnake]

I hope your people are safe Jeff.

[Jeff Head]

Thanks so much. Most relatives got out and are with my brothers and mother up north of Dallas.

Several friends in Houston evacuated but a couple of die hards stayed. They are okay now, particularly since the storm went 80 miles to the east around Port Authur. Lots of rain and some high winds...but not the worst of it.

[Jeff Head]

So Jeff are u going to show us the new pic u have?

Here you go PLABUDDY, a PLAN CBG with two carriers, two 52Cs, two 51Cs, 1 52B, one Sov, two 054 FFGs and FIVE SSNs.

http://www.jeffhead.com//redseadragon/sat_plan_vhvycbg.jpg

[sumdud]

Oh just let that thing rest would you?:D
It's old and I doubt China will use it.

Plus, if it does become part of such a task force, I think a new breed of destroyers will be used instead. It's unlikely that they will pull them away from their own fleet.
Are you refering to the fact that a USN CV has over 5000 personell?..
Yes. The French has I think about 2000 doing about 40 planes.

I never gave that much thought. We always felt that we never had enough people to do the job. ;) ??? Tell me it's appropriate for me.

If you ever served on a USN CV you would understand why the crew is so large. The crew is not just suppourting the CV. It is assiting the entire battle group in various task.

Don't the French? And all the others with these ships?

[Sczepan]

I'd like to post some pix of Kiew
1) in ShanHaiGuan, Shipyard
2) the place of the "Visitors on Deck" pic is unclear, may be Shanhaiguan, also could be Tianjin military theme park - don_t know,

but I am wondering that we don_t get pix out of the theme park here, its a difference to a lot of Minsk-pix we have

[PLABUDDY]

1) in ShanHaiGuan, Shipyard
2) the place of the "Visitors on Deck" pic is unclear, may be Shanhaiguan, also could be Tianjin military theme park - don_t know,
Kiev is in Tianjin. This i know for sure. I've seen pic of it before..it is still painted in Russian Navy color. I'll try to find the link.

[muyang523]

I think a PLAN CBG comopostion should have:
1 Varag
1 Kiev or minsk
2 type 52C
2 type 52B
1 type 54 figate
2 Kilo
2 multirole replishment ship most perferably Qiandaohu.

*The picture above has to many warships and no ships to support it such as oilers,supply ship,ETC...

[Sczepan]

I'd like to replace the Kilo by 2 or 3 SSNs
the tactic of Subs in a CBG is ro run in front, wait and listen to detect enemys when the CBG pass and run in front again. The subs sweep (wipe?) the front of CBGs way clean.
2 or 3 SSNs could alternately take turns with the other subs.
Convent. subs don't are speedy enough to run in front of a full speed operating CBG.

The number of ships you told ar minim.; I would prefere if a CBG could add more ot these ships.

[MIGleader]

I think a PLAN CBG comopostion should have:
1 Varag
1 Kiev or minsk
2 type 52C
2 type 52B
1 type 54 figate
2 Kilo
2 multirole replishment ship most perferably Qiandaohu.

*The picture above has to many warships and no ships to support it such as oilers,supply ship,ETC...

i highly doubt the plan ever plans to utilize the kievs. they are really old, have no engines or weapons, ans the plan doesnt have any vtols. it be much better the build an lpd.

[Sczepan]

i highly doubt the plan ever plans to utilize the kievs. they are really old, have no engines or weapons, ans the plan doesnt have any vtols. .
the Kiews could be great platform cruisers to escort Convois like a CBG or to controll the landing aerea of amphibious operations by seaside;
if the plan install new engines and weapons - may be replace some by modern systems like the 3M-80E Moskit (NATO codename: SS-N-22 Sunburn) - they will have a big combination of anti ship, anti air and anti sub capacity including sub hunting helos - they dont need air wings to do this job
I also don't agree about
it be much better the build an lpd. the PLAN amphibious fleet (including future LPDs) are useless without air capacity, whenever the enemy use ground attack planes and attack helos - the ships of the amphibious fleet would be sitting ducks;
in this time - out of home waters - the PLAN also need (urgent!) ground attack and additional transport capacity, which could only be spend by amphibious carriers (transporting light aircrafts like
- the advanced lead-in trainer (LIFT) L-15, which can carry various air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons to serve for lightweight attack role with little, if any, modification.
- or the JL-9 Mountain Eagle
- ground attack helos and
- a number of transport helos;

but this would be another thread

[MIGleader]

im still convinced the misnk an d kiev would do better as scrap metal than as operatinonal ships. they were sold under the conditins they would not be used for military purposes, and its not worth breaking the contract for two junk ships. why use a 30 year old platform when u can build a new, stealthy, and sdvanced sensor ship of your own?

[PLABUDDY]

im still convinced the misnk an d kiev would do better as scrap metal than as operatinonal ships. they were sold under the conditins they would not be used for military purposes, and its not worth breaking the contract for two junk ships. why use a 30 year old platform when u can build a new, stealthy, and sdvanced sensor ship of your own?
Didn't the company that bought minsk and kiev go bankrupt? So in opinion there is no contract anymore...i'm convinced that minsk and kiev should be made operational again.:china:

[MIGleader]

Didn't the company that bought minsk and kiev go bankrupt? So in opinion there is no contract anymore...i'm convinced that minsk and kiev should be made operational again.:china:

so china will be operating russian junk. they are old!!! they follow a soviet model of a ship holding many missles. besides, a refit would cost money, time, and workers. china needs to concentrate on building a new generation of stealthy, andvanced destroyers to counter DDX. 30 yeear old russian crap simply wont cut it.

[PLABUDDY]

Who need minsk/kiev as cruisers..Ukraine is selling China the Slava-class cruiser.

here's the link
http://www.peacehall.com/news/gb/army/2005/09/200509181521.shtml

[Sczepan]

yea, this cruisers carrie a various number of helos for long range sub detecting and hunting ..... :rofl:
they are modern battleships to fight a war concept of the early WW II with modern weapons,
no doubt - they ar powerfull in a ship to ship fight,
but they ar ununsable to escort convois or cbgs

The concept of ship to ship battles is outdated; it is - may be - the sowjet and russian concept of sea war; sitting in the harbour and starting attack rides to impede the enemy sea ways (like the "Bismarck" and "Tirpiz"); it is a contintal, ground based and land-war focussed concept which have no idea about sea power and mobile sea war.

What does the PLAN need?
As I know, arround the half of chinese petrol comsume is importet, most of them by sea way and most of the chinese sources ar in africa. So they need war ships to escort trading ships like tankers at the trade routes between africa and chinese controlled harbours in asia, long range ships and additional helo carriers to control big aereas around the trade routes,
to controll the sea, the sky, and the deep.
A mixed armament - and in modern sea war a big number of helos - ar needed.
Now you can spend a lot of money by a lot of different ships, destroyers, frigates, carriers, to create escort groups - or you may use a helo carriing cruiser like the Kiew-Class to do the same job in combination with a small number of escort ships,
and a sea controll helo cruiser like the kiew (including modern wepons) is much better to do this job than the slava class.

Only to compare:
Kiew-Class:
Displacement: 42,000 tons full load
Dimensions: 818.5 x 107.2 x 31 feet/249.5 x 32.7 x 9.5 meters
Extreme Dimensions: 895.5 x 174 x 39 feet/273 x 53 x 11.8 meters
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 8 boilers, 4 shafts, 200,000 hp, 32 knots (could be changed)
Crew: 1600 total
Armor: unknown, probably little or none
Armament: 8 SS-N-12 Sandbox SSM, 2 SA-N-3 Goblet SAM, 2 SA-N-4 Gecko SAM (except in Novorossiysk), 2 dual 76.2mm/50 cal DP gun, 8 30 mm gatling AA, 2 quint 533 mm TT, 1 dual SUW-N-1 ASW rocket launcher, 2 RBU-6000 ASW rocket launchers (could be modernized)
Aircraft: 31 Helos

Slava Class:
Displacement: 11,500 tons full load
Dimensions: 186 x 20.8 x 9.3 meters/610.2 x 68.2 x 30.5 feet
Propulsion: COGOG: 2 M70 cruise gas turbines, 20,000 shp, plus 2 exhaust gas boilers, 2 cruise steam turbines; 4 M8KF boost gas turbines, 4 shafts, 110,000 shp, 30 knots
Crew: 454 + 51 flag
Radar: MR-800 Voshkod/Top Pair 3-D long range air search, MR-700 Fregat/Top Steer (first two) or MR-710 Fregat-MA/Top Plate (second two) 3-D air search
Sonar: MG-332 Tigan-2T/Bull Nose hull mounted LF, Platina/Horse Tail MF VDS
Fire Control: Volna/Top Dome SA-N-6 SAM control, MPZ-301 Baza/Pop Group SA-N-4 SAM control, Argument/Front Door-C SSM control
EW: Kol'cho suite with Gurzhor-A&B/Side Globe intercept, MR-404/Rum Tub jammers, Bell Crown intercept, Bell Push intercept 2 PK-2 decoy RL, 12 PK-10 decoy RL in last two units only
Armament: 16 P-500/SS-N-12 Bazalt/Sandbox SSM, 8 B-303A VLS systems (64 S-300MPU/SA-N-6 Fort/Grumble SAM), 2 Osa-MA SAM systems (40 4K-33/SA-N-4 Gecko SAM), 1 dual 130mm/70cal DP, 6 30 mm AA, 10 21 inch torpedo tubes, 2 RBU-6000 ASW RL
Aviation: Aft helicopter deck and hangar for 1 Ka-25/26/27 series helicopter (carriing 1 torpedoe) only

Gollevainen posted this edict;
Now I've always kept my personal views over matters in one side and the moderating the forum in other but in this situation I have to break my policy as the issues agross. The nonsense discussion of Kievs and Minsk in chinese military service ends now. To allow it to continue brings only shame to our forum as we try to set up constructive, meaningless and reasonable discussion. Modernisating Kievs does not fall to that cathegory. So if you wish to dream about these fantasies, continue it in the member's club room, but not in this thread.

It's an order... ....

This thread is closed