Ws10a

[jackbh]

So how is the WS10A coming along? Is it currently in the testing stage? When will it be starting to mass produce? Since the jet engine is vital to China's military self suffecient goal and its future modernization, I thought we should have a dedicated thread.

[Chairman Hu]

Russian Sources point out that the Chinese copy of the AL-31FN(?) engine cannot be reduced in weight with the 1st and 2nd compressor, therefore, China's version has less thrust and therefore we really dont care, until China solves thaT problem, and hopefully but then the TVC version will be out

[MIGleader]

the ws-10A is not a copy of the al-31. it is based on a western engine, possibley taken from the f-16 pakistan loaned china.It may incorperate a few features from the al-31 though. the ws-10 was a copy of al-31, but it got cancelled.

the tvc is already out, although the chinese still need to test it on a fighter.

[tphuang]

http://www.china-defense.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2059&st=0
This is the PRC engine thread in China defense. This provides more sources than anywhere else.

And no, WS-10A was not developed after AL-31FN, but rather after CFM56.

There were some problems encountered in late 2004, but they have apparently being solved. This is one of the posts:

some news (China Aviation Paper sponsored by AVIC1&2) implies that 10A turbofan is already in the final phase of certification.General manager of AVIC1 LiuGaoZhuo required SARI go all out to accomplish the certification tests of the "Crucial Type" by the end of this year, during his inspection in Shenyang on July 13rd . Early in 2001 The chief designer (Vice superintendent of 606) -ZhangEnHe declared 10A to enter service in 2005.
the following news reported that till the end of first half year ,10A has completed most Flight-test subjects in Yanliang; made a vital breakthrough during Altitude Test at CGTE(in the 1#cell of SB101 ATF) ;undergone endurance test smoothly in Shengyang( probably accomplished 2* QT150h、300h or AMT)...

航空企事业单位圆满完成上半年科研生产任务
决胜重点型号 确保任务完成
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.avic1.com.cn　　2005/07/05
......

今年上半年，中国一航沈阳发动机设计研究所通过加大质量管理力度，促进了以重点型号研制为中心的科研生产工 作。攻关战区高空台试验攻关取得关键性突破；试飞战区完成了大部分的考核科目；试验战区重要零部件考核试验 全面告捷；长试战区严格落实责任制，建立应急预案，及时发现问题，解决问题，持久试车进展顺利

[Chairman Hu]

Wow the second time... geez now I'm behind in the news

When was the copied AL-31F cancelled?

CFM56???

okie im lost in time

[walter]

And no, WS-10A was not developed after AL-31FN, but rather after CFM56.



sure about that? The CFM56 family of engines are medium bypass civil turbofans--not exactly the type of engine you would put in a fighter.

[walter]

nevermind, after a bit of research, I found the WS-10A is supposedly based on the core of the CFM56.

[Chairman Hu]

you mean like the compressor and the fan and stuff?

[walter]

you mean like the compressor and the fan and stuff?

the core would be the high pressure and low pressure compressors, the combustor, the turbine, but not the fan.

[Chairman Hu]

what is the rest of the engine/material based on?

chinese tech or foreign?

[jackbh]

The Chinese must have figure somethings out for themselves.

[MIGleader]

the chinese must be innovative enought to have copied the basics of the engine, imputed parts from al-31 possibly, and figure most of it out on their own.

[Chairman Hu]

So a bit more like a copied AL-31F with american tech to solve the thrust problem but adding China's own tech into this engine...

Nice...

[jackbh]

I heard the WS10A is more fuel effecient and last longer than AL-31 is that ture?

[tphuang]

yeah, but that's because the Russian engines last half as long as American ones.

[skyhawk2005]

sure about that? The CFM56 family of engines are medium bypass civil turbofans--not exactly the type of engine you would put in a fighter.


Nah. GE, PW military turbofans are based on civilian engines such as the CFM56 core.

[MIGleader]

yeah, but that's because the Russian engines last half as long as American ones.

that is a false impression. most russian ship engines are bad, but their airplane engines with few exeption are just as reliable as western ones. their tank engines are even more reliable, versatile, and fuel efficient than western ones.

[Chairman Hu]

The question is, how fuel efficient is the WS-10A

[MIGleader]

no ones better at burning gas than the americans.

[swimmerXC]

no ones better at burning gas than the americans.

well not their cars!!! ;)

[Chairman Hu]

well GM suck at cars, no offense

How long can the WS-10A keep in afterburner compare to the other engines?

[jackbh]

GM makes the Corvette Z06 that's comming out later this year. This car is pretty good in my books.

[adeptitus]

I heard the WS10A is more fuel effecient and last longer than AL-31 is that ture?

It's hard to compare since we don't have WS-10A service data. But you can make an engine last longer by reducing the operating temperature range:

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/MiG-29-2b.htm

"The Luftwaffe inherited 30 x RD-33 engines which were all due for major overhaul. The initial aircraft servicing contract was let to the Dresden based Elbe-Flugzeugwerke Ltd. by the German MoD. 13 x additional RD-33 engines were also procured and short term recoup programs were devised. By making modifications to the turbine section to reduce operating temperatures in peacetime (equates to reduced thrust for the pilots) the Luftwaffe hoped to extend the life of the engines, reduce their support costs, as well as increase the overhaul interval from their original 350 hour prediction to 700-750 hours, depending on engine age. This innovation did not address combat demands upon the engine. Consequently, one may infer that a combat engine setting will be incorporated in the engine modification kit to facilitate higher performance under wartime conditions. For peacetime training, this lower thrust setting was be used, but it still gave the Fulcrum respectable performance."


The Indian AF didn't de-tune their engines, and this was their experience:

"The Indian Air Force procurement contract was concluded in September 1986, and the first engine was expected to go into overhaul in 1989. However, four engines prematurely came up for overhaul and no repair facility had been prepared. As time went on, 115 of the 122 engines (94%) prematurely failed and had to be re-cycled through engine depots in Russia at great cost. Backlogs were created and only 79 (65%) engines returned on schedule. Even when a regional Indian repair facility was completed in August 1994, the high failure rates continued and the majority of broken engines had to be sent back to Russian depots. Self-sufficiency was achieved in 1994, only after the operations tempo was significantly reduced on a permanent basis. In the process of refurbishing failed engines, the total technical life of most of the engine fleet was effectively reduced from 800 hours / 8 years to 400 hours / 4 years, at a minimum."

"In practice however, because of the relatively low total flight hours, under a million hours for all MiG-29's, the RD-33 failed far more often then advertised and the Russian supply system could not keep up to the customer demand and turn around time required, as experienced by the Indian Air Force. Every overhaul began to cost the InAF Force over $480,000 dollars."

[jackbh]

By reducing the operating temperature in the engine would increase life, but the performance would decrease according to the excerpt. Maybe there is a way not sacrifising performance but also long lasting engine life.

[Chairman Hu]

Wow, GM is doing something right for once...

Yea there is, eventually we humans will solve a problem one way or another

how much life does the WS-10A have and how much for the AL-31F?

[tphuang]

Yes I know this is a bbs article, but this article is posted quite a few places and does have some useful info.

summary:
by April 2005, Taishan engine has finished design and could be used in future J-7 and J-8.

2) there has been some success in WS-13A's development, not sure what it's talking about.

3) The next generation engine with a supposed T/W ratio of > 10 can start up. (I'm not sure what that means either).

4) WS500 used for cruise missile has finished development in 16 months

5) something about the "kunlun" engine.

6) about the different types of engines produced by China, WS-9 "QinLing" is used for JH-7A

Final part went through several articles and used logic to speculate that WS-10A has been developed or something like that. Some kind of milestone was hit in the May of this year.

http://bbs13.xilu.com/cgi-bin/bbs/view?forum=zgyb&message=126779

近期，从官方公开报道看，我国涡轮风扇航空发动机研制真是捷报频传，一路高歌。大有全面开花，重点突破之势 。现将公开报道的主要消息摘录如下：
　　1．中国“泰山â€�新型战机用涡扇发动机已完成设计。
　　据航空报透露：2005年4月中旬，中国一航贵州发动机研究所全面完成新型涡扇发动机整机零部件设计图 纸质量复查工作。至此，发动机零部件图纸设计和技术文件编制工作全面完成。
　　报道指出，新型涡扇发动机是为我军现役歼击机动力装置升级换代研制的发动机。名称为“泰山â€�。 目前，一航贵州发动机所工程设计人员正在黎阳公司、西航公司、黎明公司现场配合发动机试制工艺准备和生产准 备工作，配合加工试制零部件。
　　从以上报道分析，该型发动机很有可能是为J7和J8系列战机升级换代的涡扇发动机。

　　2．中国某新型涡扇发动机两大组件试制成功。
　　据中国航空报报道，2005年 4月6日上午9时30分，黎阳公司涡扇新机核心机零组件试制工作取得重要进展，黎阳公司按期完成了火焰筒和 燃油总管两大组件的试制工作。
　　该机是为我国未来轻型多用途战斗机研制提供可供选择的动力装置。研制以黎阳公司为总装集成单位。。。。 通过样机和资料引进、试验验证、消化吸收、工程研制等技术途径，掌握有关的设计制造技术。
　　黎阳公司总经理张大荣说，两大组件的交付，象征着该新机研制进入了一个新的阶段。
　　从以上报道分析，该型发动机很有可能是引进俄罗斯RD93涡扇发动机技术，为“枭龙â€�战机配套 研制的发动机。

　　3．我国新一代航空发动机核心机点火一次成功。
　　据中国航空报报道，2005年4月14日17时38分，在中国燃气涡轮研究院地面试车台上，我国自行研 制的首台高推重比涡扇发动机核心机，检查性点火试验一次成功，并顺利推到慢车状态！
　　涡轮院领导即兴讲话表示祝贺--为了这一天，他们整整盼了15年！
　　该核心机点火一次成功，表明其主要技术指标、技术状态良好。有关人士认为，这展示了我国具有自主研制先 进航空发动机的实力，坚定了国家、军方和业界对新一代航空发动机核心机最终发展成为型号产品的 信心。
　　根据以上报道分析，应该是推重比10一级的中等推力的新一代涡扇发动机核心机。

　　4．中国自主研制成功WS500小型涡扇发动机。
　　据报道，在2004年11月举办的第五届中国国际航空航天博览会上，中国一航展区的一台小型航空发动机 引起了专家和观众的兴趣和关注。这是中国一航自主研制的涡扇500发动机。该发动机为首台国内自主设计的小 推力级涡扇发动机，它的研制将填补我国航空发动机核心机系列中小推力领域的空白，可作为无人机或小型飞机动 力。
　　涡扇500发动机项目于2003年6月18日正式启动，2004年10月完成总装，历时仅16个月，这 在中国航空发展史上是没有先例的。这是中国一航科技实力、研制水平的又 一次集中体现。

　　5．中国军用发动机重点型号启动试车工作。
　　据航空报报道：2005年入春以来，六○六所生产形势高歌猛进，重点型号研制取得节节胜利。日前，昆仑 某型发动机飞行前考核持久试车胜利完成，成功实现首飞。另一个重点型号各战区捷报频传，发动机设计定型持久 试车已经启动。
　　2005年 5月11日，某重点型号发动机设计定型持久试车在六○六所试车台正式启动。

　　6. 让我们再回顾一下以往关于航空发动机的公开报道：
　　---2002年3月株洲生产出了我国第一台小推力涡扇发动机。
　　---2002年5月沈阳历时18年按国军标研制出了中推力的“昆仑â€�涡喷发动机。不久又研制出其改进型 “昆仑â€�-2型发动机。据悉，这款发动机是涡喷发动机的巅峰之作，在世界航空史上占有重要的地位。它将为J7、J8系 列战机提供强劲的动力。同时，它的若干先进研究成果将为今后研制大推力涡扇发动机积累了宝贵的 经验。
　　---2003年 7 月西安研制出了“秦岭â€�中等推力的加力式涡扇发动机。据悉，它是英国斯贝涡扇发动机的 国产改进型。 为“飞豹â€�歼击轰炸机提供了强有力的“心脏â€�。
　　---另有公开报道，2003年我国实现了对进口第三代发动机的维修达标，当年实现经济效益。所谓“进口第三 代发动机â€�就是AL31F俄制发动机。　

　　综合分析以上报道，可得知我国几个地区的发动机研究和制造基地当前的主要任务：
　　---株洲 小推力涡扇 为无人机或小型飞机配套
　　---四川 小推力涡扇 为无人机或小型飞机配套
　　---西安 中推力涡扇 为“飞豹â€�配套
　　---四川 中推力涡扇 为“枭龙â€�配套
　　---贵州 中推力涡扇 为J7和J8升级换代配套
　　---沈阳 “昆仑â€�涡喷 为J7和J8配套
　　---四川 高推重比涡扇 为未来四代战机配套

　　近期，中国航空报相继大篇幅报道了我国几大航空设计和制造基地优秀共产党员在研发新型重点型号战机中的 可歌可泣的事迹。从字里行间可明显推断：
　　---沈阳 已于2004年7月实现了采用国产新型涡扇发动机的J11改型机首飞。
　　---成都 已于2003年底实现J10的设计定型，2004年进入批量生产。
　　众所周知，J11（SU27）和我国引进的SU30MKK系列战机采用的是两台俄罗斯制AL31F型发 动机；JI10采用的是一台AL31F小改型 AL31FN型发动机。据悉，加力推力为125。5千牛，推重比在8左右。系大推力加力涡扇发动机。我国是 一个大国，作为空军中坚的J10、J11和 SU30MKK长期依赖进口发动机是不可想象的，也是十分危险的。那么，由谁来承担为J10和J11解决国 产“心脏â€�这一重任呢？
　　笔者认为：就是沈阳的606所和黎明公司。是他们在研制与俄罗斯制AL31F同级的航空发动机，名称可 能为WS10A。其性能可能优于AL31F。其理由是：
　　1．606所和黎明公司技术力量雄厚。曾研制过WS6 大推力发动机。曾历时18年按国军标研制成功具有完全自主知识产权的先进的“昆仑â€�涡喷发动机。其 间，攻克的几十项重大关键技术：如定向凝固无余量精铸复合冷却空心涡轮叶片技术，新材料技术，宝贵的研制经 验、实验设施等将为WS10A的研制提供极其有利的条件。
　　2．从公开报道看，606所是国内唯一进行大推力涡扇发动机的研制单位。
　　据报道，2002年6月16日胡锦涛主席到606所视察，型号总师张恩和汇报说：“这是我国自行研 制的大推力级加力涡轮风扇发动机，是国家高新工程项目的重点型号，该项目已取得重大阶段性成果，有望在不远 的将来实现设计定型并装备部队使用，使军用飞机的性能有更大的飞跃â€�。从我国的紧迫需要分析，上述大推 力涡扇发动机就是WS10A。
　　3．我国有几大发动机研发基地，主要的两个分别是沈阳和四川。从上面列出的各基地研制任务看，四川重点 进行第4代高推重比发动机的研制；沈阳则在进行急迫的WS10A研制，这才是合乎逻辑的。

　　那么，WS10A的研制进度如何呢？还是让我们从公开的报道来了解：
　　1。2003年1月出版的《解放军报》有一篇题为“中国空军‘三代战机’试飞纪实â€�的 报道，透露了中国新型涡轮风扇发动机于2002年6月试飞成功的消息，引起各方高度重视。文章称，在国产新 型战机上的试飞，在我国尚属首次，不仅技术难度大，而且每个课目的风险也大。试飞那天，该试飞员的“坐 骑â€�被人为安装了两个不匹配的发动机，一台是进口的、一台是国产的。……国产新型发动机的研制 成功，不仅填补了我国发动机研制的空白，更为重要的是标志着中国的航空工业步入了世界发达国家 的行列。
　　国内外众多媒体普遍认为，该发动机就是WS10A，“三代机â€�就是J11。笔者认为是很有道理 的。不然，有什么发动机可以“标志着中国航空工业步入了世界发达国家的行列â€�呢？另外，与胡锦涛主 席同年6月16日视察606所见到的“已取得重大阶段性成果的大推力加力涡扇发动机â€�也有着某些必 然的联系。单单从时间上来讲，也完全合乎逻辑。

　　2．2003年有来自航空系统的消息：“从3月25～27日召开的中航一集团燃气轮机工作会议上了 解到，今年中航一集团发动机行业的工作重点是以涡扇10发动机定型试飞为主线，抓好重点型号研制…†¦â€�．

　　3．据航空报报道：2004年 9月10日，黎明航空发动机（集团）有限责任公司、六○六所某重点型号批生产大干动员会在黎明公 司召开。
　　中航一集团把某重点型号确立为重中之重的任务。该项重点型号批生产对黎明公司和六○六所而言，是一次历 史性的商机和严峻的挑战。为此，厂所把此项任务当作压倒一切的任务来抓，要求相关单位，提高认识，用实际行 动向国家做出承诺，务求优质、高效、全面按期完成任务。
　　在大干动员会上，黎明公司提出将采取重奖重罚措施，坚决贯彻“不交任务就交乌纱帽â€�，“以 成败论英雄â€�的原则â€�。。。。
　　李勇表示，我们要勇敢地担负起这项光荣而艰巨的政治任务和历史使命，不辜负上级领导和用户的信任和希望 ，抓住机遇，迎接挑战，打胜这一攻坚仗。
　　姜伟强调，我们必须认清形势，抓住机遇，迎接挑战，在人才调配、制造技术提升、强化生产和质量管理等方 面精心组织、狠抓落实。抓好各个关键项目的工艺攻关，减少质量损失，提高产品合格率。军无戏言、军令如山、 军法无情。姜伟号召黎明公司全体干部职工与六○六所、驻厂军代表一道，齐心协力，为完成某重点型号批生产任 务而努力拼搏。
　　“中航一集团重中之重的任务â€�，“历史性的商机和严峻的挑战â€�，“不交任务就交乌 纱帽â€�，“军无戏言、军令如山、军法无情â€�这些“重话â€�在两位领导的口中都说出了，可 见“某重点型号â€�批生产是何等重要！试想，除了WS10A还会有谁呢？
　　4．2005年 5月11日，某重点型号发动机设计定型持久试车在六○六所试车台正式启动。中国一航副总经理林左鸣对全体参 试人员提出要求：“重点型号牵动着全行业的心，牵动着上级机关乃至中央领导的心，他们都期盼着我们取得 成功为国防工业做出新的贡献â€�。
　　笔者窃以为，目前能“牵动中央领导的心â€�的重点型号发动机非WS10A莫属！试想，J10和J 11系列战机生产年需发动机近百台，靠进口多花外汇且不讲，一旦外国卡脖子如何是好？中央领导能不“忧 心â€�？中航领导能不“焦心â€�---以至发出“恨话â€�？
　　5．从黎明公司的QC70、QC168、QC260燃气轮机成功开发报道看，均称以国产某A型机为基础 ，据分析应是WS10A。这从侧面印证了WS10A核心机早已成熟。

　　结语

　　航空发动机被称为机械工业之花。是高技术的集成，是公认的战略产业。目前世界上能制造核武器的国家有十 余个，但能独立研制航空发动机的国家只有美、英、俄、法、中，可见其技术难度之大。中国是一个发展中国家， 家底薄，经济技术落后，要想做一件与发达国家同样的大事，要付出何等的艰辛！在这个世界上，有谁会真心实意 地帮你实现国防现代化！经过80年代的准备，90年代的苦干，本世纪初尤其近5年的拼搏，中国的航空发动机 工业终于厚积薄发，全线突破。可以预见：我们魂绕梦牵的WS10A在2005年年底前很有可能完成设计定型 ，最迟不会超过2006年。届时，我们的三代战机将安装上自己的“心脏â€�，翱翔在祖国的万里蓝天。 到那时，我们才能够自豪地说：“研制三代机毕业了â€�。

[Chairman Hu]

AHAHAHAH I WISH THE WS-9 NEVER EXISTED!!!

"PLZ DO NOT EDIT MY POST FOR YOU OWN FUN" 2nd hand copy RR engine... it suck... period...

Deal is, China should pour money in redesign the JH-7 to fit the WS-10A, better thrust, if the WS-10 is really that successful, an TVC version should be itz future upgrade

[tphuang]

they are making a newer attacker in the mode of su-34, which hopefully will use AL-41.

[Chairman Hu]

OMG WTF!?!?

I just say stupid 2nd handed rolls royce engines, i didnt say the engine is stupid, but the idea of using them on the JH-7 is...!

New attack based on the Su-34?? really?
If the new attacker can have the AL-41 engine, that can mean that I can take off carriers easier with movable engines and and easily be modified to take off ground, not to mention all the extra manuverbility, sry, since i tend to get the idea of attack planes not every flexible

[Gollevainen]

I just say stupid 2nd handed rolls royce engines, i didnt say the engine is stupid, but the idea of using them on the JH-7 is...!

What other possipilityes did china have that time? You know china cannot just go to the store and buy the best IDEAL engine for it jets...it have to sedle what it got....

[Chairman Hu]

I know that!

China know has the money and time, if China was willing to remodel the bakc of the J-10, China should do the same on the JH-7, the engine is dragging the aircraft's performance, and the JH-7 hasn't really entered full production yet and barely entered service, itz still early, and theres still time

China is better off with 50 underpowered JH-7 than 60, as an example

------------OR-------------

Screw it, and lets wish for the new project, this time make the aircraft use the WS-10A at least, we dont know if the Russians well provide the AL-41 yet

or do you have an article that they will?

[tphuang]

found it http://club.news.sohu.com/read-war_pics-299289-0-3.html
this is posted elsewhere too, it says it originates from Kanwa.

From the look of it, it probably wants to use AL-31 as the engine.

[MIGleader]

guys. the chinese have alreadyu deemed it too costly to fit the ws-10a on a jh-7a. maybe an rd-93 will do.

the al-41? china is coop in developing it. it came with the transpoirts deal.

[Chairman Hu]

holy crap, i forgot all bou the RD-93!

Yea China should, how much will it cost extra just for refitting the RD-93? in fact? does the airframe need to be redesigned?

[MIGleader]

not that much. the rd-93, or the indegedous copy ws-13, is smaller and more fitting than an al-31.

[tphuang]

just read over this article again
http://www.kanwa.com/mrdt/showpl.php?id=207

It has this section:
SALUT的消息聲稱他們還在與中國合作進行改造AL31FN的工作。首先是延長髮動機的使用壽命﹐ AL31F/FN系列的使用壽命規定達到900小時大修時間﹐目前的工作首先是要保障這一質量標準﹐同時正在設計新的改 良型AL31FNM發動機﹐計劃把推力在增加20％﹐達到15000級別加力推力﹐成為四代半戰鬥機的動力 系統。

If the thrust of AL-31FNM is really 15000 kg, should we get AL-31FNM or stick with WS-10A for future? What do you guys think

[MIGleader]

weres this info from? how did the russinas make a 15000 kg engine? the al-31s on the flankers and j-10s had 12800kg, and ws10a has 13200-13800.
always go for the iondegedous engine.

[tphuang]

weres this info from? how did the russinas make a 15000 kg engine? the al-31s on the flankers and j-10s had 12800kg, and ws10a has 13200-13800.
always go for the iondegedous engine.
I provided the link above, the kanwa link. How am I suppose to know where Kanwa gets its info from? All I know is that Kanwa is a relatively reliable pla source.

[MIGleader]

kanwas ok. but 15000 kg is not ok. if you can do that, you dont need al-41.

[tphuang]

check http://warfare.ru/?compare=true&linkid2=2022&linkid=1606&catid=255
AL-31FM for su-35 has 13.7 tonne thrust.
AL-31FM == AL-35
AL-31 series isn't restricted to the 12.5 tonne thrust

[MIGleader]

ok, i can believe that, but obviously, chinese su-27s and j-10s dont have the varient that can give such thrust. i think china will stich to its al-31s for its su-27s and j-10s, but will fit the ws-10a on the j-11 and future j-10s.
the new chinese attach plane based on su-34 may feature an al-31 or ws-10a. j-xx almost will definilt have the al-41.

[tphuang]

it would make no sense for China to invest in AL-41 if it doesn't intend to use it on J-xx. Yeah, a twin-engined indigenous attacker would be great.

[MIGleader]

i was hopnig the buy the su-32, but its not clear if russia will sell it, or even if they do, can they make enogh. but it offers a quik solution.

[dodler]

There seems to be some confusion with engine desiginations on J-10. it is equipped with the AL-31FN and differs from standard AL-31F in that its electrical wiring and auxilary drives are mounted below the engine- the N part of designation standing for Nizhnyaya Korobka (lower [auxilary gear] box) as requested by PRC to fit in J-10.

As this is a significant engeneering difference even the ability to interchange with other Al-31 types is restricted. there does seem an over optimism on the ability to change engine types with realtive ease and speed. To be honest I have doubts about the WS-10A being in service in any near foreseeble time (5-10years) . And these fanatasies about mixing a bit of a russian engine with an american engine are a bit far fetched, its just not that easy!!!
Remember the experience of the Brits in re-engineering the Pahntom with the Spey, it produced a heaviver , slower, less fuel effecient aircraft. It just not as simple as ripping out one engine and sticking in another.
I agree with the view that the J-10 will continue to use the AL-31FN. As to China aqurring the Al-41 series this seems a little premature and overly optimistic.
Thanks for great articles on RD engines in Mig -29 adaptelius(?).
Another point that will most probably bring cries of outrage. Everyone is critisiing the Spey for being underpoewred in the JH-7 series.
Prehaps the critisim should also be applied in reverse, it is the JH-7 which is overwieght???
Please note this is meant to be a "Constructive critisimn" as I personally think the JH-7 series are a significant development in PLAAF capabilities.

[tphuang]

There seems to be some confusion with engine desiginations on J-10. it is equipped with the AL-31FN and differs from standard AL-31F in that its electrical wiring and auxilary drives are mounted below the engine- the N part of designation standing for Nizhnyaya Korobka (lower [auxilary gear] box) as requested by PRC to fit in J-10.

As this is a significant engeneering difference even the ability to interchange with other Al-31 types is restricted. there does seem an over optimism on the ability to change engine types with realtive ease and speed. To be honest I have doubts about the WS-10A being in service in any near foreseeble time (5-10years) . And these fanatasies about mixing a bit of a russian engine with an american engine are a bit far fetched, its just not that easy!!!
Remember the experience of the Brits in re-engineering the Pahntom with the Spey, it produced a heaviver , slower, less fuel effecient aircraft. It just not as simple as ripping out one engine and sticking in another.
I agree with the view that the J-10 will continue to use the AL-31FN. As to China aqurring the Al-41 series this seems a little premature and overly optimistic.
Thanks for great articles on RD engines in Mig -29 adaptelius(?).
Another point that will most probably bring cries of outrage. Everyone is critisiing the Spey for being underpoewred in the JH-7 series.
Prehaps the critisim should also be applied in reverse, it is the JH-7 which is overwieght???
Please note this is meant to be a "Constructive critisimn" as I personally think the JH-7 series are a significant development in PLAAF capabilities.

welcome to sdf, it's JH-7A that we are talking about now, JH-7's specs aren't that impressive at all. As for WS-10A, please read up on the previously posted links to get a feel of where it is in development.

[dodler]

JH-7 `series', ie JH-7, jh-7A, JH-7B, JH-7`whateveruwant'.
Have read all the the threads, which led me to my conclusion . there is nothing of any real signifance or quality to add to information.
I would like to be wrong and see a WS-10A/ J-11 in production, but unfortunatly facts and reality impinge upon my desires.

[tphuang]

JH-7 `series', ie JH-7, jh-7A, JH-7B, JH-7`whateveruwant'.
Have read all the the threads, which led me to my conclusion . there is nothing of any real signifance or quality to add to information.
I would like to be wrong and see a WS-10A/ J-11 in production, but unfortunatly facts and reality impinge upon my desires.
J-11B hinges on the success of WS-10A, if WS-10A doesn't start production soon, J-11B is stuck.

[tphuang]

a little more on the overall progress of Chinese engines
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/Get/NET/08111644710.htm

WS10A发动机研制成功，歼十马上就用中国心

www.top81.com.cn 加入时间:2005-8-11 16:37:22

　

　　近期，从官方公开报道看，我国涡轮风扇航空发动机研制真是捷报频传，一路高歌。大有全面开花，重点突破 之势。现将公开报道的主要消息摘录如下：
　　1．中国“泰山â€�新型战机用涡扇发动机已完成设计。
　　据航空报透露：2005年4月中旬，中国一航贵州发动机研究所全面完成新型涡扇发动机整机零部件设计图 纸质量复查工作。至此，发动机零部件图纸设计和技术文件编制工作全面完成。
　　报道指出，新型涡扇发动机是为我军现役歼击机动力装置升级换代研制的发动机。名称为“泰山â€�。 目前，一航贵州发动机所工程设计人员正在黎阳公司、西航公司、黎明公司现场配合发动机试制工艺准备和生产准 备工作，配合加工试制零部件。
　　从以上报道分析，该型发动机很有可能是为J7和J8系列战机升级换代的涡扇发动机。

　　2．中国某新型涡扇发动机两大组件试制成功。
　　据中国航空报报道，2005年 4月6日上午9时30分，黎阳公司涡扇新机核心机零组件试制工作取得重要进展，黎阳公司按期完成了火焰筒和 燃油总管两大组件的试制工作。
　　该机是为我国未来轻型多用途战斗机研制提供可供选择的动力装置。研制以黎阳公司为总装集成单位。。。。 通过样机和资料引进、试验验证、消化吸收、工程研制等技术途径，掌握有关的设计制造技术。
　　黎阳公司总经理张大荣说，两大组件的交付，象征着该新机研制进入了一个新的阶段。
　　从以上报道分析，该型发动机很有可能是引进俄罗斯RD93涡扇发动机技术，为“枭龙â€�战机配套 研制的发动机。

　　3．我国新一代航空发动机核心机点火一次成功。
　　据中国航空报报道，2005年4月14日17时38分，在中国燃气涡轮研究院地面试车台上，我国自行研 制的首台高推重比涡扇发动机核心机，检查性点火试验一次成功，并顺利推到慢车状态！
　　涡轮院领导即兴讲话表示祝贺--为了这一天，他们整整盼了15年！
　　该核心机点火一次成功，表明其主要技术指标、技术状态良好。有关人士认为，这展示了我国具有自主研制先 进航空发动机的实力，坚定了国家、军方和业界对新一代航空发动机核心机最终发展成为型号产品的 信心。
　　根据以上报道分析，应该是推重比10一级的中等推力的新一代涡扇发动机核心机。

　　4．中国自主研制成功WS500小型涡扇发动机。
　　据报道，在2004年11月举办的第五届中国国际航空航天博览会上，中国一航展区的一台小型航空发动机 引起了专家和观众的兴趣和关注。这是中国一航自主研制的涡扇500发动机。该发动机为首台国内自主设计的小 推力级涡扇发动机，它的研制将填补我国航空发动机核心机系列中小推力领域的空白，可作为无人机或小型飞机动 力。
　　涡扇500发动机项目于2003年6月18日正式启动，2004年10月完成总装，历时仅16个月，这 在中国航空发展史上是没有先例的。这是中国一航科技实力、研制水平的又 一次集中体现。

　　5．中国军用发动机重点型号启动试车工作。
　　据航空报报道：2005年入春以来，六○六所生产形势高歌猛进，重点型号研制取得节节胜利。日前，昆仑 某型发动机飞行前考核持久试车胜利完成，成功实现首飞。另一个重点型号各战区捷报频传，发动机设计定型持久 试车已经启动。
　　2005年 5月11日，某重点型号发动机设计定型持久试车在六○六所试车台正式启动。

　　6. 让我们再回顾一下以往关于航空发动机的公开报道：
　　---2002年3月株洲生产出了我国第一台小推力涡扇发动机。
　　---2002年5月沈阳历时18年按国军标研制出了中推力的“昆仑â€�涡喷发动机。不久又研制出其改进型 “昆仑â€�-2型发动机。据悉，这款发动机是涡喷发动机的巅峰之作，在世界航空史上占有重要的地位。它将为J7、J8系 列战机提供强劲的动力。同时，它的若干先进研究成果将为今后研制大推力涡扇发动机积累了宝贵的 经验。
　　---2003年 7 月西安研制出了“秦岭â€�中等推力的加力式涡扇发动机。据悉，它是英国斯贝涡扇发动机的 国产改进型。 为“飞豹â€�歼击轰炸机提供了强有力的“心脏â€�。
　　---另有公开报道，2003年我国实现了对进口第三代发动机的维修达标，当年实现经济效益。所谓“进口第三 代发动机â€�就是AL31F俄制发动机。　

　　综合分析以上报道，可得知我国几个地区的发动机研究和制造基地当前的主要任务：
　　---株洲 小推力涡扇 为无人机或小型飞机配套
　　---四川 小推力涡扇 为无人机或小型飞机配套
　　---西安 中推力涡扇 为“飞豹â€�配套
　　---四川 中推力涡扇 为“枭龙â€�配套
　　---贵州 中推力涡扇 为J7和J8升级换代配套
　　---沈阳 “昆仑â€�涡喷 为J7和J8配套
　　---四川 高推重比涡扇 为未来四代战机配套
　　近期，中国航空报相继大篇幅报道了我国几大航空设计和制造基地优秀共产党员在研发新型重点型号战机中的 可歌可泣的事迹。从字里行间可明显推断：
　　---沈阳 已于2004年7月实现了采用国产新型涡扇发动机的J11改型机首飞。
　　---成都 已于2003年底实现J10的设计定型，2004年进入批量生产。
　　众所周知，J11（SU27）和我国引进的SU30MKK系列战机采用的是两台俄罗斯制AL31F型发 动机；JI10采用的是一台AL31F小改型 AL31FN型发动机。据悉，加力推力为125。5千牛，推重比在8左右。系大推力加力涡扇发动机。我国是 一个大国，作为空军中坚的J10、J11和 SU30MKK长期依赖进口发动机是不可想象的，也是十分危险的。那么，由谁来承担为J10和J11解决国 产“心脏â€�这一重任呢？
　　笔者认为：就是沈阳的606所和黎明公司。是他们在研制与俄罗斯制AL31F同级的航空发动机，名称可 能为WS10A。其性能可能优于AL31F。其理由是：
　　1．606所和黎明公司技术力量雄厚。曾研制过WS6 大推力发动机。曾历时18年按国军标研制成功具有完全自主知识产权的先进的“昆仑â€�涡喷发动机。其 间，攻克的几十项重大关键技术：如定向凝固无余量精铸复合冷却空心涡轮叶片技术，新材料技术，宝贵的研制经 验、实验设施等将为WS10A的研制提供极其有利的条件。
　　2．从公开报道看，606所是国内唯一进行大推力涡扇发动机的研制单位。
　　据报道，2002年6月16日胡锦涛主席到606所视察，型号总师张恩和汇报说：“这是我国自行研 制的大推力级加力涡轮风扇发动机，是国家高新工程项目的重点型号，该项目已取得重大阶段性成果，有望在不远 的将来实现设计定型并装备部队使用，使军用飞机的性能有更大的飞跃â€�。从我国的紧迫需要分析，上述大推 力涡扇发动机就是WS10A。
　　3．我国有几大发动机研发基地，主要的两个分别是沈阳和四川。从上面列出的各基地研制任务看，四川重点 进行第4代高推重比发动机的研制；沈阳则在进行急迫的WS10A研制，这才是合乎逻辑的。

　　那么，WS10A的研制进度如何呢？还是让我们从公开的报道来了解：
　　1 。2003年1月出版的《解放军报》有一篇题为“中国空军‘三代战机’试飞纪实â€�的报道， 透露了中国新型涡轮风扇发动机于2002年6月试飞成功的消息，引起各方高度重视。文章称，在国产新型战机 上的试飞，在我国尚属首次，不仅技术难度大，而且每个课目的风险也大。试飞那天，该试飞员的“坐骑†�被人为安装了两个不匹配的发动机，一台是进口的、一台是国产的。……国产新型发动机的研制成功， 不仅填补了我国发动机研制的空白，更为重要的是标志着中国的航空工业步入了世界发达国家的行列 。
　　国内外众多媒体普遍认为，该发动机就是WS10A，“三代机â€�就是J11。笔者认为是很有道理 的。不然，有什么发动机可以“标志着中国航空工业步入了世界发达国家的行列â€�呢？另外，与胡锦涛主 席同年6月16日视察606所见到的“已取得重大阶段性成果的大推力加力涡扇发动机â€�也有着某些必 然的联系。单单从时间上来讲，也完全合乎逻辑。

　　2．2003年有来自航空系统的消息：“从3月25～27日召开的中航一集团燃气轮机工作会议上了 解到，今年中航一集团发动机行业的工作重点是以涡扇10发动机定型试飞为主线，抓好重点型号研制…†¦â€�．

　　3．据航空报报道：2004年 9月10日，黎明航空发动机（集团）有限责任公司、六○六所某重点型号批生产大干动员会在黎明公 司召开。
　　中航一集团把某重点型号确立为重中之重的任务。该项重点型号批生产对黎明公司和六○六所而言，是一次历 史性的商机和严峻的挑战。为此，厂所把此项任务当作压倒一切的任务来抓，要求相关单位，提高认识，用实际行 动向国家做出承诺，务求优质、高效、全面按期完成任务。
　　在大干动员会上，黎明公司提出将采取重奖重罚措施，坚决贯彻“不交任务就交乌纱帽â€�，“以 成败论英雄â€�的原则â€�。。。。
　　李勇表示，我们要勇敢地担负起这项光荣而艰巨的政治任务和历史使命，不辜负上级领导和用户的信任和希望 ，抓住机遇，迎接挑战，打胜这一攻坚仗。
　　姜伟强调，我们必须认清形势，抓住机遇，迎接挑战，在人才调配、制造技术提升、强化生产和质量管理等方 面精心组织、狠抓落实。抓好各个关键项目的工艺攻关，减少质量损失，提高产品合格率。军无戏言、军令如山、 军法无情。姜伟号召黎明公司全体干部职工与六○六所、驻厂军代表一道，齐心协力，为完成某重点型号批生产任 务而努力拼搏。
　　“中航一集团重中之重的任务â€�，“历史性的商机和严峻的挑战â€�，“不交任务就交乌 纱帽â€�，“军无戏言、军令如山、军法无情â€�这些“重话â€�在两位领导的口中都说出了，可 见“某重点型号â€�批生产是何等重要！试想，除了WS10A还会有谁呢？
　　4．2005年 5月11日，某重点型号发动机设计定型持久试车在六○六所试车台正式启动。中国一航副总经理林左鸣对全体参 试人员提出要求：“重点型号牵动着全行业的心，牵动着上级机关乃至中央领导的心，他们都期盼着我们取得 成功为国防工业做出新的贡献â€�。
　　笔者窃以为，目前能“牵动中央领导的心â€�的重点型号发动机非WS10A莫属！试想，J10和J 11系列战机生产年需发动机近百台，靠进口多花外汇且不讲，一旦外国卡脖子如何是好？中央领导能不“忧 心â€�？中航领导能不“焦心â€�---以至发出“恨话â€�？
　　5．从黎明公司的QC70、QC168、QC260燃气轮机成功开发报道看，均称以国产某A型机为基础 ，据分析应是WS10A。这从侧面印证了WS10A核心机早已成熟。

　　结语

　　航空发动机被称为机械工业之花。是高技术的集成，是公认的战略产业。目前世界上能制造核武器的国家有十 余个，但能独立研制航空发动机的国家只有美、英、俄、法、中，可见其技术难度之大。中国是一个发展中国家， 家底薄，经济技术落后，要想做一件与发达国家同样的大事，要付出何等的艰辛！在这个世界上，有谁会真心实意 地帮你实现国防现代化！经过80年代的准备，90年代的苦干，本世纪初尤其近5年的拼搏，中国的航空发动机 工业终于厚积薄发，全线突破。可以预见：我们魂绕梦牵的WS10A在2005年年底前很有可能完成设计定型 ，最迟不会超过2006年。届时，我们的三代战机将安装上自己的“心脏â€�，翱翔在祖国的万里蓝天。 到那时，我们才能够自豪地说：“研制三代机毕业了â€�。

[MIGleader]

J-11B hinges on the success of WS-10A, if WS-10A doesn't start production soon, J-11B is stuck.

the ws-10a has completed development., it set to begin production in 06.
thats part of thew reason why j-11 construction has been suspended.
they also want a new radar on it.

[tphuang]

the ws-10a has completed development., it set to begin production in 06.
thats part of thew reason why j-11 construction has been suspended.
they also want a new radar on it.
well, I guess you can still build other parts of the plane and put the engine in there near the end. The question is what kind of distribution are we going to get with WS-10A?
I'm guessing 30 for J-11B and remaining to J-10, since SAC only has the capacity to produce about 15 J-11s per year.

[MIGleader]

quote from sinodefence:The production of the J-11 was reportedly delayed due to serious quality problems at the early stage, but the production had reached an impressive rate by late 2002. Russian sources confirmed that about 48 aircraft had been assembled by 2002, and another 48 between 2002 and 2003.

what do you mean 15 a year?! i think all remaining liscenced j-11's(around 100), probably th b varient, will be fitted with ws-10a. notice they have stopped production to make some upgrades. the pla probably wants to continue j-10 prodution soon, maybe make about 60-70 with the al-31. than the will fit the ws-10s on a twin engine varient possibly.

[tphuang]

quote from sinodefence:The production of the J-11 was reportedly delayed due to serious quality problems at the early stage, but the production had reached an impressive rate by late 2002. Russian sources confirmed that about 48 aircraft had been assembled by 2002, and another 48 between 2002 and 2003.

what do you mean 15 a year?! i think all remaining liscenced j-11's(around 100), probably th b varient, will be fitted with ws-10a. notice they have stopped production to make some upgrades. the pla probably wants to continue j-10 prodution soon, maybe make about 60-70 with the al-31. than the will fit the ws-10s on a twin engine varient possibly.
the question is how many WS-10As can we produce per year? If we are producing 40 to 50 J-11s, then that will need 120 WS-10A engines. What do we have left for J-10s, then? Clearly, WS-10A will make J-10 more maneouverable.

[tphuang]

this has been posted in quite a few places, so I might as well post it here.
Check http://www.cjdby.net/dispbbs.asp?boardID=4&ID=209951&page=1
重大利好：重点型号持久试车胜利完成
航空报4号头版头条：《砥砺锋芒铸神剑 一航动力所胜利完成重点型号设计定型持久试车》
时间是9月27号，总算是有结果了，谢天谢地。
It doesn't specifically say that it is WS10A, but it's quite implied that it's WS10A, because it talks about AVIC1 successfully finishing endurance testing on the major model. Apparently, this happened in September 27th. This is also mentionned on CDF and key publishing aviation forum. Now, I just need to find a picture of the original article.

But yeah, since this is considered to be the most important and the FINAL test, we can probably see WS-10A being certified in the coming months. Hopefully sooner rather than later. I'm still waiting for a kanwa article on this.

Here is the article's scanned picture:
had to take it off, but here is a link to it.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=99556

[ahho]

just wondering, i picked up some news that the ws-10 has finish endurance test

[tphuang]

it has and it should be ready for J-11B now, since this is the final test before certification.

[MIGleader]

so when will we see the first j-11b? o7? o8? it still needs a new radar and a slighly rediesigned airframe.

[tphuang]

so when will we see the first j-11b? o7? o8? it still needs a new radar and a slighly rediesigned airframe.
I'm thinking the J-11B prototypes have been out already and it uses KLJ-4, so it should join in 06 in my opinion

[MIGleader]

klj-4? stats for it?

[adeptitus]

klj-4? stats for it?

It's been mentioned a few times on key publishing aviation forums. Current (speculated) data is detection range of 160 km and ability to track/attack 4 targets at same time. But this is all speculated and there's no actual data.

If you go to the manufactuer web site (NRIET), they don't list the product specs either.

[MIGleader]

wow, 160 km reange isnt bad, but 4 target tracking? they can do better than that.

[tphuang]

KLJ-4 is just KLJ-3 modified for flankers, so the capabilites should be similar. KLJ-3 is suspected to be either slotted array or phased array.

KLJ-3 stats:
For targets, the commonly used phrase is track 15 and engage 6. This is the speculated value by Kanwa (http://www.kanwa.com/free/2003/12/e1215a.htm)
Another source is quoted as track 16-20 and engage 6-8 (http://www.tzsl.org/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=1468 and many other places)
There is another source that said track 24 and engage 4.
The most conservative number I have read is track 15 and engage 4.
This makes sense, since KLJ-3 did beat elta-2035 and Zhemchug based on performance

As for range, I think it's all about detection range rather than search range. Although the search range is normally given as 150 or 160 KM.
The common value given for detecting 3m^2 targets are:
100 KM for look up/head on targets and 80KM for look down

J-11B possibly going into full production with WS-10A starting production probably next year.
http://www.war-sky.com/forum/attachment/Day_051010/46_109080.jpg

[sumdud]

not that much. the rd-93, or the indegedous copy ws-13, is smaller and more fitting than an al-31.
Dude, the WS-13 is NOT a copy of the RD-93. It's a turboJET for the J-7!
If it was, JF-17 would not be facing engine problems.

Yea China should, how much will it cost extra just for refitting the RD-93? in fact? does the airframe need to be redesigned?Yes, if China enlong the body, but that'll off course hamper performance.
The RD-93 has the diameter but a longer length.

The exhaust of the JH-7 looks pretty big to me though.

[tphuang]

Dude, the WS-13 is NOT a copy of the RD-93. It's a turboJET for the J-7!
If it was, JF-17 would not be facing engine problems.

Yes, if China enlong the body, but that'll off course hamper performance.
The RD-93 has the diameter but a longer length.

The exhaust of the JH-7 looks pretty big to me though.
migleader is right, WS-13A is for jf-17.

[MIGleader]

Dude, the WS-13 is NOT a copy of the RD-93. It's a turboJET for the J-7!
If it was, JF-17 would not be facing engine problems.

Yes, if China enlong the body, but that'll off course hamper performance.
The RD-93 has the diameter but a longer length.

The exhaust of the JH-7 looks pretty big to me though.

the rd-93s had soem problems as we know. but the ws-13 was dewsigned to fix them. the chinese cant sell rd-93 either.

[tphuang]

a comparison between WS-10A and AL-31F. More technical comparison.
http://www.freespaces.com/tphuang/post-10-1130233249.jpg
It's interesting how all the comparison to WS-10 were blacked out.
Anyhow, for AL-31F. It compared differences at different turning rates:
at high turning rate: it's 4.5% better.
at medium turning rate: it's 1% better

[tphuang]

All over the Chinese military forums this morning, the avic1 website has officially declared that the large turbofan engine (WS-10A) is successful. Interesting it took another 4 months after the end of the last major test to get it certified.
http://www.avic1.com.cn/chinese/xwzx/detail/20060224_10.htm
“太行”航空发动机通过技术定型审查

自主创新结硕果，激情超越谱新篇。我国自行研制的大推力涡轮风扇航空发动机——“太行”航空发动机通过了设 计定型审查。这标志着我国在自主研制航空发动机的道路上实现了历史性跨越，在攀登世界科技高峰征程上迈出了 新的重大一步。这对于加速我军武器装备的跨越式发展、加强国防现代化建设具有极其重要的意义。

“太行”航空发动机的研制成功，是党中央、国务院、中央军委亲自关怀和总装、国防科工委、空军、海军等上级 机关正确领导的结果。亲切的关怀化为无穷的动力，激励着广大参研人员矢志不渝、激情进取，战胜前进道路上的 一切困难。

“太行”航空发动机的研制成功，是中国一航大集团战略的集中体现。航空发动机研制是复杂的系统工程。在中国 一航“整合、凝聚、创新、卓越”的大集团战略下，充分发挥社会主义制度集中力量办大事的优势，实施了发动机 行业的整合。开展了大协作，行业内外通力合作，思想上高度统一，行动上密切配合，工作上相互理解、相互信任 、相互支持、同心同德、同舟共济。在型号研制最关键的时刻，集团公司领导多次亲临现场，坐镇指挥，调动集团 一切资源，极大地促进了“太行”发动机的研制进程。

“太行”航空发动机的研制成功，是参研单位和参研人员自主创新的非凡壮举。先进的航空发动机是世界公认的现 代制造业皇冠上的一颗璀璨的明珠，是一个国家科技工业水平和综合实力的重要标志。“太行”航空发动机作为我 国自主创新研制成功的第一台大推力涡轮风扇航空发动机，在研制过程中，参研单位和参研人员坚持走自力更生、 自主创新的道路，勇于探索未知领域，勇于突破研制禁区，勇于攀登科技高峰，采用了大量先进设计技术以及上百 项新工艺、新材料，一大批先进科研成果填补了国内技术空白或达到国际先进水平。此外，参研单位在中国一航的 统一部署下，大力开展运行机制的创新、管理体制的创新和文化建设的创新，有力地促进了型号研制，从而实现了 我国在自主研制航空发动机上新的历史性的重大跨越。它的研制成功，凝聚着几代航空人的心血与期盼，是航空战 线上几十万名职工汗水与智慧的结晶。

“太行”航空发动机的研制成功，不仅为航空装备提供了一个强有力的动力装置，而且为今后的航空发动机事业提 供了一个良好的发展平台。更重要的是，通过发动机的研制培养和造就了一支经验丰富、本领高强、素质过硬、作 风顽强的研制队伍。秉承“航空报国、追求第一”的集团理念，我们相信，中国一航人将更进一步同心同德，激情 进取，在铸航空利剑、扬中华国威的伟大事业中再立新功，为我国航空工业早日自立于世界航空强者之林做出新的 贡献。

Also, I wonder whether or not this year's production will be more than the much talked about 55-60 units. It's suppose to be in mass production this year already.

[maglomanic]

Is it successful/ready for J-11B or for J-10?? I think most folks have said that there will be more work on WS-10A for J-10. Pakistan is showing interest in J-10 and i think that would be more reason than not to finalize WS-10A version for J-10. WHat do you guys say??

[crobato]

More work will have to be done adapting the WS-10A for the J-10.

The J-10 requires an engine with a gearbox on the bottom. It may be speculated that the original WS-10 may have been designed this way, and so was the J-10 airframe. To fit, the AL-31FN was designed to have the gearbox on the bottom.

But when the improved WS-10A was being designed for the J-11 instead, they would have to reverse the gearbox to the top, like an AL-31F. And so now the WS-10A now have top gearboxes and won't fit the J-10, not unless they redesign the engine to have the gearbox on the bottom. That would mean some more testing.

I don't suppose that the redesign is hard work. It can probably be done in a year's time including some testing. But the level of safety and reliability standards is higher for a single engined plane than a double engined plane as you have no margin for error, so the quality control, reliability, and endurace testing will have to go through one more notch before it can be fully certified for use on the J-10.

Is J-10 with WS-10A more feasible for Pakistan? Well, if the RD-93s are not approved for second export to Pakistan, then the FC-1 project would be in deep trouble. PLAAF is only interested on the FC-1 to help the plane gain export markets, and if it cannot gain export markets because exports of such is affected by Russian approval on the engines, then there is no point, might as well stick to the J-10. So called WS-13 for the FC-1 seems much farther along the route. FC-1 04 still need a battery of tests to go. Working to modify and certify the WS-10A for the J-10 might actually be the easiest path.

[maglomanic]

I don't think Pakistan will ditch JF-17 and instead get into J-10 for the same role.
J-10 is being looked at for the top notch fighter/strike platform for PAF. It even won't field in huge numbers in this role. JF-17 will still go to around 150-200. IMHO, FC-1 will become a success (egypt,bangladesh,Iran etc).

However what i find interesting is the following aspect.
The fighter looked at by Musharref and co , was it the one that is being inducted in the PLAAF or the one that is supposed to be the version on steriods and which was expected to fly sometime this year?? I find it more probable that Paksitan will go for the topmost performer to fill the role of the elite fighter in it's inventory.

[Typhoon]

tphuang: "Thanks Heaven and Thanks Earth", that's really a good news. HeHeHe!

But my question is: "设计定型审查" means "certified final design", does that also imply it is "mass reproducible"?

Is that truth that the WS10 prototype was "workable", but couldn't be mass-reproduced due to some material quality control issue?

[tphuang]

Well, the speculation on Chinese forums is that WS-10 has been tested out on both J-11A and J-10 and WS-10A on J-11B. So, has WS-10A been tested on J-10? I'm sure work is ongoing to get it ready. One of the so called experts on war-sky was saying that there will be WS-10A for J-10 even in 2006. I'm not sure. But the important part is that J-10 will not have a mass conversion toward WS-10A until much later. Crobato brought up a real good point with the single engine + reliability. I think that if China was not able to buy the Lavi footprint from Israel, the indigenous 4th generation fighter would never have been a single engined fighter. I guess China's current work on WS-10A includes trying to improve the thrust to the 150K level, adding the TVC nozzle and most importantly (improving the reliability).

When JF-17 and J-10 are likely to be mass exported to Pakistan (like after 2008), both WS-10A and WS-13 should be ready and tested. As for what version of J-10? It would have to be the improved version, because the previous version would no longer be in production. Although, export versions are generally not as good as the domestic versions.

As for the mass production, it should've already started. You don't really need the final certification before starting mass production really.

[crobato]

The question is, when will WS-13 be ready? It just looks way too further off. The PLAAF might equip itself with a trials regiment of FC-1s using the RD-93 engine, but without Russian approval, China cannot export the aircraft. Russia will probably give a lot of support to India now, given that the MiG-29K order, the upgrade for the existing MiG-29s, and the possiblity now that MiG might be able to grab the 126 plane MRCA contract now that Mirage 2000 has dropped out.

Pakistan however does not seem to be in a hurry. It may choose to buy itself a squadron of J-10s in the meantime while WS-13 gets finished. At the least, maybe two or four jets just to get its feet into the water. But I think it's unlikely that Pakistan will buy new aircraft for one or two years after the earthquake aftermath. It is bad politics to buy multimillion dollar jet fighters while earthquake victims face exposure and starvation. It will have to completely boil over before Pakistan is "ready" to acquire new fighters.

[tphuang]

Well, I'm not sure if this is saying anything we don't already know, but this is what AVIC1 posted recently.
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/head/83/20060313/13164344.html

　　“太行”航空发动机是我国航空工业自行研制的大推力涡轮风扇发动机， 是中国航空工业打基础、上水平的重点工程。

　　党中央、国务院和中央军委领导亲切关怀和高度关注这项工程，国防科工委、总装备部、空军、海军以及辽宁 省、沈阳市和中国航空工业第一集团公司等上级领导机关自始至终大力支持研制工作。

殷殷嘱托和热切关注犹如东升的旭日，托起发展中国航空动力事业的希望；恰似和煦春光，照耀着“太行”发动机 从诞生到成长直至成功。

　　党中央、国务院领导殷切期望发展我国的航空发动机事业。“我们的航空工业要搞好发动机，解决飞机‘心脏 病’的问题”——周恩来总理几十年前语重心长的叮咛，航空人没齿不忘。

　　20世纪80年代中期，邓小平同志对航空部9位专家联名建议信做出重要批示，这成为“太行”发动机研制 中重要的里程碑。

　　江泽民、胡锦涛、李鹏、温家宝、吴邦国、刘华清、曹刚川等中央领导和中央军委首长对“太行”发动机研制 工作特别关注，在发动机研制的重要阶段和关键时期多次到研制第一线视察工作，听取汇报，提出殷切期望，及时 做出重要指示，给予有力的支持。

“太行”发动机装上飞机科研首飞成功后，江泽民同志指示：“飞机用的发动机要十分注意其可靠性。 ”

　2002年6月16日是航空人永远铭记的日子。胡锦涛同志在中国一航总经理刘高倬等领导陪同下，亲临“太 行”发动机总设计师单位——中国一航沈阳发动机设计研究所视察、指导工作。他深入科研一线，亲切会见并慰问 一线科研人员，对发动机研制取得的成绩深表赞许，并欣然为一航动力所题写所名，给予全体参研人员巨大的鼓舞 。

　　2004年8月，吴邦国同志视察中国一航沈阳黎明航空发动机（集团）公司，亲切接见一航动力所所长李勇 、时任党委书记的陈锐、副所长兼型号