A typical PLAN fleet

[IDonT]

What would be a typical PLAN surface fleet be composed of?

We have seen these type of composition in the past

Fleet A
2 Sovremenny
1 Resupply ship

Fleet B (seen recently)
1 Sovremmny
2 Juanghu I Frigate
1 Resupply ship
1 Survey Ship (I think)

Also please take into account ships that are not in service yet are are still undergoing sea trials. Likewise, also take into account the fleet where the ship is in.

Does anyone know what fleet the 052B is in?

[Neko]

I don't think that fleet is the appropriate term for this... perhaps force or group, depending on the circumstance.

Generally, one might consist of one to two DDGs, and two to three FF(G)s. Additionally, one might see an auxilliary or two bringing up the rear.

Once again, it is dependant on mission tasking. It would be comprised of a larger group of combatants, were it a strike group, or an occupying force (as oine might see used for intimidation of Japanese/Vietnamese/Other Asian outposts).

If it were a mission of research, there'd be more auxilliaries, and less combatants, which would only be there as escort vessels.

I'm sure you get the idea.


A Fleet, however, would denote a much larger organization, one of greater numbers. The North, East, and South Sea Fleets denote *all* vessels and controls in their respective areas, while the PLAN Destroyer Fleet would include all PRC DDs. In the case of a large attacking group, one would likely use the term 'armada' instead of 'fleet,' although 'fleet' is used from time to time in this capacity.

[MIGleader]

a speculated carrier group would include varyag, a 52c, a 52b, a sov, and two type 54s.

a 52 b is a general purpose ship that can be deployed in almost any situation.

anyone know which fleet the two neww sovs are going?

[Jeff Head]

What would be a typical PLAN surface fleet be composed of?

These look more like what we would call a SAG (Surface Action Group) in America or a task force more than a fleet.

[Su-27 Pilot]

What would be a typical PLAN surface fleet be composed of?

We have seen these type of composition in the past

Fleet A
2 Sovremenny
1 Resupply ship

Fleet B (seen recently)
1 Sovremmny
2 Juanghu I Frigate
1 Resupply ship
1 Survey Ship (I think)

Also please take into account ships that are not in service yet are are still undergoing sea trials. Likewise, also take into account the fleet where the ship is in.

Does anyone know what fleet the 052B is in?

How many sovremenny destroyers are the PLAN operating ?? 2 ??

[MIGleader]

they have two now, but by the time they get a carrier, they will have four.
thats why you should add any ships china's getting in the near future into your fleets.

[Su-27 Pilot]

they have two now, but by the time they get a carrier, they will have four.
thats why you should add any ships china's getting in the near future into your fleets.

What is the US equivalent of the Sovremenny class destroyer ?? If they have one.

[Jeff Head]

What is the US equivalent of the Sovremenny class destroyer ?? If they have one.

The Kidd class used to be comparable...but the closest now are the Burkes.

[Su-27 Pilot]

The Kidd class used to be comparable...but the closest now are the Burkes.
Thankz for the info.

[Jeff Head]

Thankz for the info.

You are welcome. If you would like to see a visit to a US Navy Reserve Fleet, I took one a coupole of weeks ago and posted a thread here on this forum. If you are interested, take a look.

My Trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=273)

[Su-27 Pilot]

You are welcome. If you would like to see a visit to a US Navy Reserve Fleet, I took one a coupole of weeks ago and posted a thread here on this forum. If you are interested, take a look.

My Trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=273)

I did that yesterday though. Nice hat pal :D !!!!!

[Su-27 Pilot]

If the Taiwan conflict does happen, and I think mostly wont but anyway The PLAN's South Sea fleet will do the most attack and naval engagements. PLAN North Sea fleets and the East sea fleets will blockade the Northern sea area while the East sea fleet will blockade the eastern part of Taiwan to seal the netwhich intended to prevent any escapes or foreign invasions.

[Jeff Head]

I did that yesterday though. Nice hat pal :D !!!!!

Thanks. It's standard manly headwear in the part of the western US where I live.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Thanks. It's standard manly headwear in the part of the western US where I live.

Including California ?? May be Texas right ?

[Jeff Head]

Including California ?? May be Texas right ?

Interior California (central Valley and northern Sacramento Valley) and certainly many parts of Texas (which is where I was raised) outside of some of the major business districts in Dallas or Houston.

But I am speaking more of Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, Montana. We call that the "intermountain region" and it is very western. Lots of agriculture, cattle ranches, etc. interspersed with a few metropolitian areas which are fairly small. For example, Boise is the largest "big" city for almost four hundred miles and its population is a little ver 150,000.

Salt Lake City (almost 400 miles or 640 km from where I live) is just over a million.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Interior California (central Valley and northern Sacramento Valley) and certainly many parts of Texas (which is where I was raised) outside of some of the major business districts in Dallas or Houston.

But I am speaking more of Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, Montana. We call that the "intermountain region" and it is very western. Lots of agriculture, cattle ranches, etc. interspersed with a few metropolitian areas which are fairly small. For example, Boise is the largest "big" city for almost four hundred miles and its population is a little ver 150,000.

Salt Lake City (almost 400 miles or 640 km from where I live) is just over a million.

Really ? WOW I wish I have one like that. Salt Lake City is all mormons right ??

[Jeff Head]

Actually, about 50%, maybe a little more. I am LDS myself, here in Idaho.

[Soyuz]

The Kidd class used to be comparable...but the closest now are the Burkes.
Have those Kidd class destroyers been sold on to taiwan? I remember reading that the U.S were offering them to the Taiwanese as an alternative to supplying them with aegis technology.

[Jeff Head]

Have those Kidd class destroyers been sold on to taiwan? I remember reading that the U.S were offering them to the Taiwanese as an alternative to supplying them with aegis technology.

My understanding is that they have already been sold to the ROC. I am not sure if they were a part of the defense bill that has been tied up in the ROC legislature or not. If not, they may already be over there being prepared for outfitting, training, etc.

The KIDDs were called AEGIS light here in the US because of how strong their all around capabilities were, particularly in AAW with the two twin launchers that were the same as the CGNs at the time In addition, they can be controlled and managed by an AEGIS capable CG or DDG (Tico or Burke) and this has to be part of the reason they will be so valuable to the ROCN.

If the US fights alongside them, then US Aegis vessels can make the most of their capabilities...or if the ROC ultimately obtains AEGIS vessels themselves, and I believe they may well, then they will be able to integrate them into a battle space environment in that fashion themselves.

Even by themselves, IMHO, the KIDDs are probably the most capableDDGs in the region now, short of the Japanese Kongos or US AEGIS vessels.

[Soyuz]

Did a bit of researching there, and yes the 4 kidd class DDGs have indeed been sold to Taiwan. Apparently the first is due to arrive at the end of the year although there has been some controversy over them as the Taiwanese actually requested ships equiped with AEGIS. Still though they do seem like pretty powerful ships particularly in terms of AA weaponry. (just read there that they were originally built for the Iranians but the events of 1979 meant they ended up in U.S service! :D )

[Jeff Head]

just read there that they were originally built for the Iranians but the events of 1979 meant they ended up in U.S service! :D

That is correct...and the US Navy was happy to have them. They still have a good fifteen years or more service life in them easily.

[MIGleader]

but what'll happen to those ships when taiwan and china rejoin? will the us just let china have 4 of the most powerful ships in the world?

[Soyuz]

but what'll happen to those ships when taiwan and china rejoin? will the us just let china have 4 of the most powerful ships in the world?
Well if the PRC retakes the island through force i think it'll be unlikely that all four of those ships will survive, Even the taiwanese admit this!
http://http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2005/04/27/2003252150

Also i don't think that the Kidds are as powerful as they seem on paper, and they are apparently not well suited for the tasks they will have to perform while in service with the Taiwanese navy.
http://www.fas.org/news/taiwan/2001/taiwan-010425.htm
Well if there are any left after China and Taiwan are reunited then maybe the chinese will turn them into a floating casino :D .

[Su-27 Pilot]

My understanding is that they have already been sold to the ROC. I am not sure if they were a part of the defense bill that has been tied up in the ROC legislature or not. If not, they may already be over there being prepared for outfitting, training, etc.

The KIDDs were called AEGIS light here in the US because of how strong their all around capabilities were, particularly in AAW with the two twin launchers that were the same as the CGNs at the time In addition, they can be controlled and managed by an AEGIS capable CG or DDG (Tico or Burke) and this has to be part of the reason they will be so valuable to the ROCN.

If the US fights alongside them, then US Aegis vessels can make the most of their capabilities...or if the ROC ultimately obtains AEGIS vessels themselves, and I believe they may well, then they will be able to integrate them into a battle space environment in that fashion themselves.

Even by themselves, IMHO, the KIDDs are probably the most capableDDGs in the region now, short of the Japanese Kongos or US AEGIS vessels.
Without the USN's support what kind of role will those four ships play as a counterstrike against the main attacking naval forces from the PLAN and the PLAAF during the taiwan conflict (Only If )

[MIGleader]

well, if taiwan and china have a peaceful reunion, what will happen? china could examine them and let them enter service as part of a foiurth fleet, made upo of taiwanese warships.

[Raven]

These four ships are excellent vessels. In fact, they were built with lessons from the Spruance Class DDs which also share many of the features and hull design of the Ticos. The Kidds were actually supposed to be sent to the Navy of Iran but as they were completed, the Shah was removed from power and the US Navy kept the four ships and named them after US Navy Admirals killed in WWII. All four ships had air conditioner units due to the heat of the Persian Gulf. Americans loved the ships and I know people who served on three of them. In fact, they would be very easily converted to MARK 41 VLS ships and possibly semi Aegis sistems. These ships are very capable and I was very surprised to see them removed from the USN order of Battle. Save for the newest Burke Class DDGs, they had the advantage of fielding two LAMPS helos, be they SH-2F/Gs or SH-60F/Rs. They are excellent in either surface to surface,surface to air or ASW missions. They DDGs are as flexible as you can get without being a DDG51 or Soveremny.

[MIGleader]

so how do they match up against the 52c or sov 956em?

[BrotherofSnake]

The Kidds are better than them from what I've read.

[Totoro]

Well, kidds don't have the radar system like 52c. but thats pretty much only disadvantage. 52c is just a far smaller ship than a kidd. I'll compare with sovremenny.

Kidds max displacement is over 9700 tons. Sovs is over 7900 tons. So it's clearly a bigger ship. Kidd is 171m long whereas sov is 156m long.

Both have max speed of 33 knots.

Sovremenny carries one helo where kidd carries two.

Kidd has 8 harpoons, sov has 8 moskits. or 8 improved moskits for sovremenny 956EM. So when it comes to antiship missiles, one can say sovremenny is superior.

Old sovremenny has poor SAM capability, carries 48 sa-n-7 missiles, some 25 km range. improved sovremenny has 24 sa-n-12 missiles, of some 32-50 km range (exact figures range widely for it). Compared to that, kidds mk26 launchers hold 68 missiles, so that'd be a max of 68 sm2 sams (70 km range). Pretty clear that kidd is a superior anti aircraft platform.

Old sovs has two 130mm turrets plus 4 ak630 ciws. new chinese sovs allegedly have those ak630s replaced with 2 kashtan systems. Kidd has 2 five inch guns and 2 phalanx. If kashtan deployment turns out to be true, it'd be a more potent ciws soluton that what kidd has.

it has to be said that 'old' sovs are not actually that old. they may have been sitting in the shipyards for years half completed but they've served only some 5 years now. And 2 improved sovremmenies will be brand new. Opposite of that, kidds have served many years and probably would benefit from some refit, further increasing their cost.

In the end, if cost is not a factor, kidds for taiwan would mean a significant boost, especially in ASW and AAW roles, while its antiship capability would be limited, not just to sovremennies but to other chinese ships equipped with 200km range missiles.

[Soyuz]

I'm not so sure about the superiority of these Kidd DDGs over current chinese vessels.

Although they have a heavy AA weapons fit in the standard missile mk2, which is superior to anything the PLAN has. However the full capabilities of this weapon cannot be realised without the use of Aegis radar which the Taiwanese don't have.

Also in terms of anti ship armament i would say the Sovremenny class armed with 8 of the potent SS-N-22 supersonic anti ship missiles, which are so fast that it gives the target ship almost no chance of employing it's defences, is superior to the Harpoon equipped Kidds.
http://www.sinodefence.com/missile/antiship/3m80.asp

The Kidds perform best out in the open ocean operating as part of a CBG, they will not be well suited to operating in a littoral warfare environment which they will encounter in an invasion scenario, by virtue of their size and lack of mobility which will make them an easy target.

Also the cost of operating these ships is massive both financially and in terms of manpower and this is probably why the U.S wants rid of them so much (they had already tried selling them to Australia and Greece).
http://http://www.fas.org/news/taiwan/2001/taiwan-010425.htm

I think the Taiwanese don't really want to take these ships on, they would probably rather have Aegis destroyers but the U.S probably refused to supply this and so they have had to settle for the Kidds instead.

[IDonT]

I'm not so sure about the superiority of these Kidd DDGs over current chinese vessels.

Although they have a heavy AA weapons fit in the standard missile mk2, which is superior to anything the PLAN has. However the full capabilities of this weapon cannot be realised without the use of Aegis radar which the Taiwanese don't have.

Also in terms of anti ship armament i would say the Sovremenny class armed with 8 of the potent SS-N-22 supersonic anti ship missiles, which are so fast that it gives the target ship almost no chance of employing it's defences, is superior to the Harpoon equipped Kidds.
http://www.sinodefence.com/missile/antiship/3m80.asp

The Kidds perform best out in the open ocean operating as part of a CBG, they will not be well suited to operating in a littoral warfare environment which they will encounter in an invasion scenario, by virtue of their size and lack of mobility which will make them an easy target.

Also the cost of operating these ships is massive both financially and in terms of manpower and this is probably why the U.S wants rid of them so much (they had already tried selling them to Australia and Greece).
http://http://www.fas.org/news/taiwan/2001/taiwan-010425.htm

I think the Taiwanese don't really want to take these ships on, they would probably rather have Aegis destroyers but the U.S probably refused to supply this and so they have had to settle for the Kidds instead.


SM-2 can take care of those sunburns.

These ships were designed to fight in the littoral environment of the Persian gulf. It can intrupt, frustrate, and destroy a significant asset of a CHinese invasion force.

[tphuang]

If enough ASMs are flying at it at once, the Kidds air defense would not be able to handle them.

[swimmerXC]

dont forget the Kidd's ECM and probably CIWS is better than anything the PLAN has

[BrotherofSnake]

The Kidd also has a better anti-air capability.

[swimmerXC]

The Kidd also has a better anti-air capability.

i wouldn't be so sure of that... no info of the HQ-9 has been revealed

[tphuang]

depending on what source you use, China is using APAR on 170/171
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.63/pub_detail.asp
check the kvant section.

As for the specs on 170/171,

it's basically the following as I posted on cdf:
maximum height 30KM
minimum height 500 meters
maximum distance 120KM
minimum distance 6 KM
maximum speed mach4.2
missile length 6.8 meters
missile radius 0.47 meter
missile weight 1.3 tonne
missile warhead 180 KG+

radar search 450 to 500 KM.

according to fisher's article, the radar can track 150 aerial object. Although, I think I read that HQ-9 can only control 16 missiles against 8 targets concurrently.

just a note, 052C's ASM isn't so bad either, the range of YJ-62 is 280KM for lo-lo profile.

[MIGleader]

well, 16 missles on 8 targetrs might be stretching it. the s-300 could direct twelve missles against 6 targets, but no one knows exacly what the hq-9 does. if the kidds do not have aegis, the 52c will have an advantage over tham, since the 52c;s are fitted with stolen aegis. both are about the sam in ciws, i believe. the kidd had 2 phalanxes, right?

[Soyuz]

SM-2 can take care of those sunburns.

These ships were designed to fight in the littoral environment of the Persian gulf. It can intrupt, frustrate, and destroy a significant asset of a CHinese invasion force.
The SS-N-22 was developed in the 80's as the soviet counter to the Ticonderoga class cruisers (vessels which are superior to the Kidd class), their speed is what makes them so deadly. By the time the Kidds realise the missile has been fired at them they will barely have enough time to employ countermeasures let alone fire any SM-2s!

[swimmerXC]

well it depends what block the SM-2's are....

[IDonT]

The SS-N-22 was developed in the 80's as the soviet counter to the Ticonderoga class cruisers (vessels which are superior to the Kidd class), their speed is what makes them so deadly. By the time the Kidds realise the missile has been fired at them they will barely have enough time to employ countermeasures let alone fire any SM-2s!

Kidds will be using the same SAM (SM-2) and the SPG 60 fire control radar. The only difference is that it is using a rail launcher and it doesn't have the Aegis battle management system. Before it was decommisioned it was given the NTU (New Threat Upgrade). Those sunburns will be shut down.

Having a high speed missile also presents another problem. You need to have a very fast processor because the missile it self will barely have enough time to acquire its target once it breaks the horizon. Can it tell the difference between a ship, several clouds of chaff, a Sea Hawk helo emmiting a radar signiture of the ship, and active jamming, within 30 seconds?

US has the technology to employ missiles with such speeds but it choses not to. Why, its called greater probability of target acquisition and destruction.

[vincelee]

what's with this Kvant stuff? I think it's well known that Kvant was still on the drawing board when the 52C was being fitted.

[bd popeye]

Also the cost of operating these ships is massive both financially and in terms of manpower and this is probably why the U.S wants rid of them so much (they had already tried selling them to Australia and Greece).

The USN will eventually rid itself of FFG's because they want all their escorts to be Aegis ships. Cost has nothing to do with it. This according to my son who has been on active duty with the USN for 7.5 years.

Many of the USN FFG's are used for drug interdiction missions.

Here are three news articles about FFG's doing drug interdiction missions from the USN web site.

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=5590

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/story/view_story.asp?x=6748

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=10222

[MIGleader]

Kidds will be using the same SAM (SM-2) and the SPG 60 fire control radar. The only difference is that it is using a rail launcher and it doesn't have the Aegis battle management system. Before it was decommisioned it was given the NTU (New Threat Upgrade). Those sunburns will be shut down.

Having a high speed missile also presents another problem. You need to have a very fast processor because the missile it self will barely have enough time to acquire its target once it breaks the horizon. Can it tell the difference between a ship, several clouds of chaff, a Sea Hawk helo emmiting a radar signiture of the ship, and active jamming, within 30 seconds?

US has the technology to employ missiles with such speeds but it choses not to. Why, its called greater probability of target acquisition and destruction.


tech to employ such missles? not there yet. they dont have the tech to do it because they never tried to. if you fly slow, can the missle be easily shot down? the missles are radr hoiming, so they home on the radar of the enemy vessel emitted from the home ship.

[tphuang]

as I said in the past, do not have too much faith in the american missile defense system. As it was shown with the Patriot/Scud situation, you can have a system that miss the missile completely and still think it hit it.