Finnish army thread

[Gollevainen]

I decided to save this one from the old forum, basicly couse in the past i have noticed that sometimes discussions involving me tends to turn into my home country and its armedforces. In this new forum, however, the moderating policy is more strict one so that kind of offtipic leaps arent allowed anylonger so something else has to be done...so basicly now, when you realise that there is a hole in your military knowlidge about size of Finland, come here and read...and learn...

oh, and this one rootes from the 'world armed forces tour' from the old forum, and I see no reason for not to continue it in here. So if anyone else of our new (and old) members wants to introduce their (non chinese, US or russian) armed forces in this forum, it will be more than welcome. Thougth keep this one as a 'standard', and dont make worser, few paragrahp posts containing some commonly known facts.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/europe_pol97.jpg

So here we go...

Finland gain its independence in late 1917 in aftermath of Russian october revolution. Soon after, the political rift between 'whites' or rigth-wing and 'reds', the working class flamed into full length war. The Whites eventually gained upperhand and whit little help from germany they ended the civil war in bloodly manner and tens of thousands of reds were massacared. Along whit actual german troops came also some six thousand 'jaegers' or voluntary finns serving in imperial german army. Those and the white officers formed the back bone of the Finlands first rebuplics army in 20's and 30's.

Well not interfeiring anymore to finnish domestic politics, the WWII came whit Soviet occupation attempt in december 1939. Miraculously we won even when odds against us were even worser than Taiwan has against PRC. As example we had less than twenty modern Vickers tank against over 2000 soviet similar models (T-26). In 1940 after 104 days the Soviets presented a ceasfire which Finnish government could accept but we lost major areas of our eastern border. So it wasent difficoult to anticipate that we joined up whit Hitlers crusade against Bolsevism and everybody knows how it ended so I am not briefing it here. But it has to be said that when Soviets tryed to end the Finnish front in summer 1944 along whit the bigger Normandian landings, the 'Winter war' was fougth as a rematch whit similar results and the figthings in Karelia isthmus were one of the biggest in whole WWII and certainly biggest in Fenno-Scandia. They where also only time since 1943 when allied offensive where stopped. Afterwards the Government agreeded again in ceasfire and the 1940 borders were back in line and the end of the 'first rebuplic' was evident. We fougth brief war to drive Nazis out of our Lapland and in 1945 we had free elections, first of its kind in among post war axis allyes

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/f/fi-war.gif

So remembering that every generation prior to independence had fougth against Russians also, we have quite strong military heritage and there is little question about who the enemy really is. During the cold war we remaided neutral whit good ties to both east and west and it reflected to our army also. The 1947 Paris peace treaty to lesser germans allyes imposed srtick reductions to our armed forces and eq missiles and submarines were banned (the missile ban was lifted along whit the 1962 acustion of MiG-21Fs, first non-warsaw pact export sale of that type!)

But enough history and to the point...

The Finnish defence forces are quite small in peace time, some 30,000 in active service and most of them are conscripts. The conscription system, where over 80% of young mens serve in armed military is pretty unique in todays europe and has been the back bone of our military always...Its also popularily supported and no serious statements have been made in our political life to change it to 'mercenary' corps...Every one serves at least 180 days and those who are trained officers and NCOs do 180 more and act as auxiliary trainers to the next patch of new conscripts. After some five to ten years most are called into annual refferesment trainings...(I havent been yet :( )

The Finnish defence forces are organized in peacetime under three MDs (MPAs); Wester, eastern and northern. Under their command are all active units and military regions (SL) which are responsible of creating wartime units...

Ground Forces

The Finnish Order of Battle includes:
6 ligth infnatry training brigades (named: Karelian's, Jaeger, Kainuun's, North-Karelian's, Pori's and Savo's Brigades)
1 ligth training Armoured brigade
1 artillery brigade
3 infantry regiments (including the airborne regiment)
2 airdefence regiments
1 engineer and 1 singal regiment
plus few schools...

Three brigades (one in each MPA) are descriped as rapid-reaction units, but they are still in trainign formation...
The brigades are not in wartime strength and are more as 'training centers' than field formations whit more or less 1,000-3,000 personel. E.q the Karelian brigade, where the author served, had one motorised infantry (called Jaegers) battalion, one artillery regiment, engineer battalion, anti aircraft battalion, supply battalion and singal battalion. I was in the artillery regiment which had three batteryes and one battery size NCO school. In realistic field trainings, our regiment could make up a undersized artillery battalion and mortar company for the sole infantry battalion.


But in wartime, those brigades would have four 740 men strong infantry battalions and artillery regiment whit two battalions whit some 6,000 men strength. The sole amoured brigade is to be disbanned as a wartime unit and the future amoured units would be disperred between the infantry and motorised infantry brigades during the wartime. The total wartime strength would be some 20 brigades and numerious independent battalions and companyes. The defence doctrine calls for the whole nation to be defended under the 'area-defence'doctrine where the huge size and low people per sq km rate would be taken advantage. The idea is let the enemy deep inside to our terretory and when the suplly lines are becoming too long to be defended easily, our 'gurellia' infantry would attack the enemy unit and trying to surround it and isolate from rest of the enemy. The term gurellia is universally used in our army and in general language as well to descripe the ligth infantry so its kinda strange to read foreing articles using the gurellia word when speaking of insurgents...


Air Forces

After the WWII finnish airforces strength was ordered to be less than 60 combat planes and no missiles and bombers. The missiles were aquired but the bombers were left out and somehow the modern groundattakcers where aslo described as 'bombers' and none saw service in Finnish airforce. Currently the 60 combat planes are still being maitaned in form of 57 F-18 Hornets and some 50 BAe Hawks, which are trainers not combat planes :rolleyes ... They are shared whit three airdefence squardons and airwarfare school. there are also support squardon whic flies whit few Learjets and Fokker F-27s but the main dissavantage of our airforce is lack of transporters and EW planes. There where some 8 Mi-8 Hips previously flown by the airforce but they were tranferred into Ground Forces and are being replaced by some 20 NH-90s. the airdefence is also under Ground forces and the core of it are the Buk-M1 (SA-11 Gadfly) SAM systems


Navy

Finnish navy havent got any 'ships' bigger than minelayers, but there isent any need for them, as there havent been strong urge to go and 'spread' anything to distant nations by the behalv of the finnish government. The 10 Missile fACs armed whit RBS-15 SSMs are the main force supported by some smaller patrol crafts and three minelayers; the biggest one, Pohjanmaa is also the flagship and cadet training ship. There are single infantry brigade under Naval organisation, the Nylands brigade which has traditionally been the service place for swedish speaking finns. There are few LCUs but they are more of mobile coastal defence force rather than any 'marines'. The coastal defence have also lots of fortessed 100mm and 130mm coastal guns and truck mounted RBS-15 missiles. The Paris peace treaty prohipited submarines and placed 10,000tns limit to our navy. Hardly the tonnage limit was to been achieved but the banning of subs have serioulsy limited navys offensive capapilityes. During the WWII, the finnish subs along whit the extensive mining of Finnsih Gulf made the Soviet KBF (Krasnozamnyee Baltiskii Flot) surrounded in Kronstad. Althought the Paris treaty no longer plyes, the budget straings have effectively stilled all submarine plans...

[Gollevainen]

and as the forum doesent allow so much pics in single post...

http://img95.echo.cx/img95/9730/eurospike.jpg The eurospike ATGM

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6249/d302ii.jpg The 122mm D-30 Howitzer, used now mainly in the artillery training

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/816/1112074277taistelijanvaat1pien.jpg
The new 2005 model of combat dress...

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/233/thumbnail28es.jpg
All fins know how to skii, so they make sure that we ski also in the army

[Gollevainen]

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7853/leo20ht.jpg
The Leobard 2A4, first non-soviet MBT in Finnish army since the 50's...

http://img95.echo.cx/img95/7125/fafacftl.jpg
Some new and old planes of the finnish airforce

http://img95.echo.cx/img95/5616/Buk.jpg
The Buk-M1 SAM system, Russian depth reduction suplyes from the 90's...

[Gollevainen]

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/498/hamina7cp.jpg
Hamina class Missile FAC whit some stealth features and new RBS-15mk3 SSMs

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2460/hameenmaa7wa.jpg
Hämeenmaa class minelayer/transport ship...

[stonewind]

Must be pretty scary sitting next to big red in the cold war. Im not big on navy, but is hameena class soviet, western Influences or indeginous finnish design?

[Gollevainen]

completely finnish desing, it's hyprid minelayer/transport ship, tough usually used only as milelayer...it's armament is the good old swedish 40mm an the soviet 23mm in finnish made turrets wich could also used for the frech mistral SAM...

[ger_mark]

http://www.marine.de/02DB070000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W26G9AWU929INFODE/$FILE/006%20Steampass%20PICT0007-640x853.jpg

is this ship finish ?

[Gollevainen]

No, its Liethuanian support and HQ ship Vetra (A41) of USSR Valerian Uriaev class

all finish ships have regonizable camoflage pattern

[ger_mark]

ok i was just wondering cuz of the flag

[Gollevainen]

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/l/lt~.gif

its the liethuanian naval ensing...

[Gollevainen]

Now as there was some promising discussion about the newest finnish FAc Hamina, but in the wrong place so here's the proper place for it...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Tornio_Siiri-05.jpg

http://www.ship-technology.com/contractor_images/helkama/helkama4

As i gave the info on the ship i didn't mentioned about the umkhonto SAM system wich is Souht african VLS system for IR holming missile here's a Denel's add on the system:
http://denel.co.za/Resources/AS_Umkhonto.pdf

Also as it was mentioned, A swedish 57mm DP is fitted to the seccond and third hulls (Tornio and Hanko) and Hamina will be retro-fitted whit the similar gun in the future.

One interesting point in Hamina is that it is part of the new "squardon-2000" wich orginally would have consisted of two Hamina class missile FACs and four Tuuli class missile aircushion vessels...

http://www.rannikonpuolustaja.fi/kuvat/tuuli1.jpg
http://www.rannikonpuolustaja.fi/kuvat/tuuli_1.jpg
http://www.nieppi.com/wordpress/wp-content/photos/IMG11720.jpg

But the use of aircuhsion vessels was cancelled in finnish navy and this truly revolutionar ship was left whitout users and is now tryed to be sold. It was the first time when missileboat and aircushion vessels where succesfully united but sadly the whole process was useless...what a waste...

[tphuang]

FAC Hamina looks pretty sweet.

[Delphi84]

Hi Gollevainen,
I'm delphinus84 of the previous un upgraded version of the Sino defense forum. Good to hear and understand abt the conscript system of the other country. Just a question, Finland navy main surface combatant is the FAC. But the FAC seems quite poor in terms of air defense and anti sub capabilities why? The D-30 u talking abt is used for training purposes, then wat is the usual things u use for combat. Hmmm..... the winter training looks fun, definitely better than the usual sweltering heat of the tropic, wat u think isit better? Btw, I hear Singapore is attempting to market the Bronco All terrain tracked vehicle to Finland, any latest news?:rolleyes: :D :)

[Gollevainen]

But the FAC seems quite poor in terms of air defense and anti sub capabilities why?

Well all finnish FACs have the mistral capapility and these new ones have the Ukhomoto VLS system. No real fleet defence capapility is needed as the finnish navy is supposedly to operate inside the normal airdefence network.

When judging the antisub capapilityes you must remember that Finnish navys operational area is very shallow waters so the existing sonarsystems are adequate. There's no need for VDS or more complicated systems. Also it must be remembered that the main weapon of our navy is Mines.

The D-30 u talking abt is used for training purposes, then wat is the usual things u use for combat

It depends on where you serve. Our Karelian artillery regiment used mainly 155K98 (wich is also my wartime piece) wich is 155mm/52 cal Gun-howitser, the newest of our weapon manufacturing...Its older version 155K83 was also used tough i never had to. 155K98 is also used by the Kainuu's brigade. We have some Soviet D-20s and Hyacint-Bs tough sole SP pieces are in the Amoured Brigade (2S1 and 2S5s)

the winter training looks fun, definitely better than the usual sweltering heat of the tropic, wat u think isit better?

Trust me, freezing in -20 degree isen't fun...You've propaply never heard of cross-country skiing?....but as we artillery mens say, we don't tolerate cold nor hot and we tend to disalike all other climats as well....;)

Btw, I hear Singapore is attempting to market the Bronco All terrain tracked vehicle to Finland, any latest news?
I've actually haven't heard about it...i'll try to dig something out....

[Lavi]

Is there a third Hamina-class hull? That one I've never heard of. Gollevainen, did I overlook it or did you leave out Uudenmaan Prikati? That's where Finns practice fighting in the archipelago.

And to anyone who hasn't tried it: the Finnish winter is not that fun when reaching really low temperatures, and trying to fight in -20 or -30 degrees doesn't make it any any nicer. Not to mention serving in the navy with the ice-cold wind and water.

[Gollevainen]

did I overlook it or did you leave out Uudenmaan Prikati? That's where Finns practice fighting in the archipelago.

You overlooked it, it is mentioned in the naval section

[Lavi]

You are right, my apologies. Btw, what is the proper English word for the 'Jääkärit', is it rangers?

[Gollevainen]

Jaeger migth be offical translation from the german word which from the finnish term is corrupted. In other old military traditions such as french and British, proper term migth be grenadier or something like that. In the past, when jaegers moved whit bicycles, ligth infantry migth have been proper term but nowadays, mechanised or motorised infantry would be most accurate (thus making Parola's brigades panssarikeiju's to be called 'amoured infantry' which is rather weird term in international level)
Recon troops of jaeger battalions or those Utti's hat-hat-hat men could be called as 'rangers'

[President]

hello, how many soldiers in Fin Amry? and how many population in Finland?
the FAC is so cute. does finland produce their own weapon system or use euro standard? more picture please. :)

[Gollevainen]

Well the strength can be found on the first page of this thread as it presents the finnish military in general. But in summary, we have some 33,000 men during peacetime and something like 27,000 of these are conscripts serving 6 months to twelve months according their rank or duty. During wartime we can mobilize army up to 700,000 men but the current mobilization plans calls something like 350,000 mens. These are quite good from population of 5 million.
As the mainpost indicates, we produce quite much of our military hardware domestically and those that are too sophisticated, have been bougth abroad, usually balanced between late-Soviet Union and western non-allied nations such as switzerland and sweeden. Now adays our politicans tend to follow the general trends in Eu and lots of our latest purchases are parel whit other EU powers such as Nh-90 helicopters.

[Lavi]

Also a quite common trick is to buy different parts for a weapons system from different places and then put them togheter in Finland.

http://tietokannat.mil.fi/kalustoesittely/media/1084521911_ItPsv_90.jpg

This little Itpsv 90 is built togheter by a English turret, Swiss cannons and a Polish-built vehicle.

The Finnish Defence Forces website is http://www.mil.fi/ it's in finnish, but has some content in English, and Swedish, as well, and it has quite a number of nice pictures.

[Delphi84]

Hmmm... -20 degrees! ok no joke, tat is reeeeeaaalllly cold. But I was just commenting the it is better to train in cooler weather than the typical hot sweltering 31 degrees here. Yar, wat u say is true, it is better to produce own weapons. It is also a good idea to put different parts together to produce a equipment. Same here, the Bionix IFV is a good marry of the 30mm bushmaster gun and a M8 chasis.:rolleyes: :o :D

[MIGleader]

quote:But the use of aircuhsion vessels was cancelled in finnish navy and this truly revolutionar ship was left whitout users and is now tryed to be sold. It was the first time when missileboat and aircushion vessels where succesfully united but sadly the whole process was useless...what a waste...

take off the guns and sell it to china. cnina has been interested in ourchasing aircushionvessels like the zubr class for some time now.

sad...aircushion craft have so many feature you cant do with a regular ship

quote:This little Itpsv 90 is built togheter by a English turret, Swiss cannons and a Polish-built vehicle.
nice vehivcle, with a decnt gun turret. but a polish vehicle=t-72 chassis

[Knarfo]

hello, how many soldiers in Fin Amry? and how many population in Finland?
the FAC is so cute. does finland produce their own weapon system or use euro standard? more picture please. :)

Blame yourself for asking... :)

All things Finland, by the foreign ministry
http://virtual.finland.fi/

Finnish defence forces "pocket guide"
http://www.mil.fi./perustietoa/julkaisut/taskutieto/pdf/taskutietoa05_en.pdf

...and other guides and publications
http://www.mil.fi./perustietoa/julkaisut/

Finnish defence forces homepage in english
http://www.mil.fi/english/

The main producer of arms in finland
http://www.patria.fi/index.asp?id=072883FB7F06455EA6C53A1AE3D0DB44

Finnish Swedish joint venuture
http://www.patriahagglunds.fi/

Finnish software radio programme
http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles/anmviewer.asp?a=223&z=7
http://www.mil.fi/laitokset/pvtt/fsrpbook.pdf

Helmets composite armour etc
http://www.fy-composites.com/
http://www.sinex.fi/

Naval ships
http://www.akerfinnyards.com/

[Knarfo]

nice vehivcle, with a decnt gun turret. but a polish vehicle=t-72 chassis

Nope, it is a T-55 alright. The turret is actually more than decent once they got it debugged. The chassis however, is a bit on the small and underpowered side.
http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00128_en.dsp

[Knarfo]

Btw, I hear Singapore is attempting to market the Bronco All terrain tracked vehicle to Finland, any latest news?:rolleyes: :D :)

The bronco is up against the swedish BSv 10 and a possible new joint patria/hägglunds proposal.

[Lavi]

Patria/Hägglund or BSv 10 probably takes it, the nordic countries are among the few capable of producing vehicles that actually can operate in subzero conditions.

[Knarfo]

Patria/Hägglund or BSv 10 probably takes it, the nordic countries are among the few capable of producing vehicles that actually can operate in subzero conditions.

Because of the strong ties between patria and hägglunds and the desire for more cooperation with sweden I guess you are right. But who knows? Umkhonto might be considered to have been quite the outsider in the competition for a sam for the navy too.
However I do not think the singaporeans lack the capabilty to design a vehicle for subzero conditions. I do not think it is a capability thing. It is more like a set of factors that have to be considered. These are well known. But of course experiance helps. The important thing is testing. It is very likely that the bronco, was designed for broad range of environmental circumstances.
The bronco posesses some uniqe capabilties, iirc, like being able to detach the rear cab and still drive the front end. Not something a nasu or bv 206 can do.
In any case it is likely that whatever vehicle is chosen it will be licence built by patria or patriahagglunds.


The bronco posesses some uniqe capabilties, iirc, like being able to detach the rear cab and still drive the front end.

Crap...
It is the
Active Articulation Vehicle (AAV)
that can split into two driveable units.
http://www.stengg.com/kinetics/listing.aspx?pdtypeid=1


sorry for the smelly stuff in previous post..

[Delphi84]

Wow the average soldier in Finland only serve lesser than 1 yr for conscripts, here we serve a minimum of 2 yrs regardless of rank!:mad: ;) :D

[Lavi]

From what country are you Delphi84?

Israel has one of the thoughest conscription periods, 2 years for women and 3 for men, but then I read somewhere that their GHQ sees civilians as 'soldiers that are in leave eleven months a year' :D

In Finland we actually plan on sticking to the system with conscripts, as opposed to e.g. Sweden. There they in theory have conscription, but so few persons serve each year that Swedish military analyticans claim that it can no longer be called general conscription.

[Delphi84]

Hi Lavi,
from the 'lavi' word are u an Israelite? I'm Singaporean. Here we pratice conscription of 2 yrs for officers, nco, and non-nco. I am actually a reservist which means I must go back for a compulary 4 weeks military training:) ;) :D

[Jones Henry]

Since i today live in Finland i know a litle about the Finish army:) Sorry to say this "kuolevainen" but i think they need a "make over" My plan would be a small specialiced force. I think, that for now a years mandatory military service migh still do good(even for us more multicultural:D )fins, but it shouldnt be that series. EVERYONE has known since the Cuban missile crisis what would happens, if Finland goes to a war with Russia! So "kuolevainen", everybody knows, that they will literally bomb and burn the living shit out of you(sorry for the harsh language) And today mother Russia has made an alliance with Asias rising start China. She has allready her own antimatter ptoject on the way just like the US. New, difficult to trace stealth plains and missiles. Personally, id recomend good relations with Russia:) Do not try to change you border with them(and the same goes for Estonia as well!) Do not deliberatly make them pissed. Russia is acually a declining nation, because of there low birthrate, for a European country still quite high death toll and immigration! Anyway, Russias atention is now 90% focused on the caucasus, midle-east, the pacifig and Asia! Personally, i think Finland should get a good airforce! Then you would need missiles(maybe with movable lauch boards)and ofcourse a NUKE! Surdenly mother Russia would get quite pissed off once shed realice that Finland has gotten herself a new toy, but you really shouldnt let them scare you. You should have enough movable nukes(cruise missiles laucnhed from both the air and the sea?)so Russia could not attack Finland without having saint petersbugh nuked! Lets face it;WMD:s always save the day:) You could develope your own WMD:s mostly by yourself, and then say, that if Russia makes a fuz out of it, youll call USA in to the conlicft, wich has really bad relations with Russia mostly do to Iran and China. The Russians will not risk it;they got enough of there own problems! Just tell them, that if they try to "chek the border" anymore to the west youll nuke Pietari and the Murmansk subbase. The Russians would possibly use nukes in an attack against Finland anyway("mininukes")so it's really wouldnt be a big deal. They wont attack! They dont have the man power, they dont have the money, and ALL there atention is practicly focused on somwhere else! Ofcourse it dosent mean you should give up your regional forces, but please try to make the training a bit more intrestetting and motivated. WMD:s are the ONLY thing that will keep mother Russia off your back for good, trust my on this;)

[Gollevainen]

you thougth Gollevainen is corrupted word of kuolevainen?:D

well mayby not nukes:rolleyes: ...they tend to piss lots of bigger nations headmen and women. besides, if the curend wind keeps blowing, we find our selves pretty deep inside of NATo or whatever comes from the EU's military element...

[Knarfo]

Regarding Jones henrys proposal:.....

Uhmm..ohhhh....HELP!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: Running off to hide under my bed....

Hope you are joking!! Your suggestions are sensless and contradictory

[Jones Henry]

you thougth Gollevainen is corrupted word of kuolevainen?:D

well mayby not nukes:rolleyes: ...they tend to piss lots of bigger nations headmen and women. besides, if the curend wind keeps blowing, we find our selves pretty deep inside of NATo or whatever comes from the EU's military element...


Thats true! But i still belive, that Finland should have modern armed forces. Just in case something goes wrong(The original Russian empire allready fell in 1918, but they STILL came after you again in 1939. This proves they can be somewhat persistent:rolleyes: ) Finland could have a nuke as a part of the EU army. I think, that both eastern-europe, balkan and Russia should also join the EU:) And im sure in time it will happen, because without the EU there really can be no peace in Europe. The EU should also improve it's ties with the China-India axis, and distant itself from the US, wich i think is a bad influence. Anyway i think, that immigrant crime today is a lot bigger threat to Finland then the Russian armed forces(wich are being integrated with China for a possible fight with the US)

[Lavi]

'Lavi' is a Hebrew word, which I've taken from the IAI fighter prototype, but I'm from Finland really.

I think that a conscript army still can be a great benefit for Finland, a small country who needs to use all resources it has if invaded by a bigger country (we all know who I talk about :rolleyes: ). However, increasing the amount of professionals in the army and/or joining NATO surely would add to the defensive credibility of the Finnish defence.

[Gollevainen]

joining in nato or going to more deeper inside EUs defence programs migth make us armed forced look nicer but also it gives Russia lot more reasons to attack us, not mention all other trouples in differnt parts of the world were bush (or his followers) had decided to attack. Thougth it was Stalin who started the winter war, we didint do nothing to prevent it, and im firm believer that if the foreing policy of us back in 20's and 30's wouldnt have been led by those AKS facist, Stalin would have felt himself far more safer on our part of his borders. The key to small countryes survival is to assure biggers that we arent any thread, not shout it up to their face that we are...I dont like to see same things to happen again.

[Jones Henry]

joining in nato or going to more deeper inside EUs defence programs migth make us armed forced look nicer but also it gives Russia lot more reasons to attack us, not mention all other trouples in differnt parts of the world were bush (or his followers) had decided to attack. Thougth it was Stalin who started the winter war, we didint do nothing to prevent it, and im firm believer that if the foreing policy of us back in 20's and 30's wouldnt have been led by those AKS facist, Stalin would have felt himself far more safer on our part of his borders. The key to small countryes survival is to assure biggers that we arent any thread, not shout it up to their face that we are...I dont like to see same things to happen again.


Russia is truly a great nation:two great empires in only about a thousand years:eek: But i think they just dont have the "human capital" for another "empire" For now Russia will first try a revenge against the US. And a good tool for this is a Sino-Russian alliance. I still dont think they want a war(Armageddon)with the US. All the players in the great game are just playing time. The US will invest A LOT[/B ]in there missile shiled, wich i talked about before. Personally, i really dont think it will never work, but i could be wrong:confused: It's just that the the other party will get EMP weapons, and super sonic stealth missiles. I think the US knows, that this time it cant just [B]SAY it has a missile shield;they also need to prove it works atleast 90% They know there also running out of money, and have only about a 5-10 year advantage to there opponents, while in the "original" cold war it was
more like 20. I think the US is losing it. One thing that im afraid of is, that they will try a "pre-emtive" strike once the realize they cant make themselves invurnable. Theyll count on the fact, that Chinas and Russias second strike capability isnt that good, so they can block atleats most of there missiles. Or atleast they can threaten both China and Russia with a first strike(allready doing that with Iran:mad: ) I think it's time for China and Russia to start learning from the CIA(built "minibombs" and plant them in the enemy area) For Finland this can get quite troubeling, since the American nazi government might choose to hit targets(murmansk, saint petersburg)near Finland. Anyway, i think the US system will collapse economically anyway, but it still dosent mean they might not try a last desperate attempt (war?) Maybe a Finish nuke in this short of an eviorment is not the best solution:o ? But you must decide wich side to support(China or the US)because it is wery difficult to be "puolueeton" thede days!

[sumdud]

Question to Gollevainen:
Why aren't torpedoes allowed/used in Finland?

[Gollevainen]

Question to Gollevainen:
Why aren't torpedoes allowed/used in Finland

Becouse the Paris peace treaty...all offencive weapons were banned. Althoug we no longer follow that threaty torbedoes have been so long out of service so it's actually quite difficoult to adapt to "new" systems.

[Knarfo]

Becouse the Paris peace treaty...all offencive weapons were banned. Althoug we no longer follow that threaty torbedoes have been so long out of service so it's actually quite difficoult to adapt to "new" systems.

...and as previously mentioned Sweden and Finland is currently co-developing a new torpedo.

[Knarfo]

Along whit actual german troops came also some six thousand 'jaegers' or voluntary finns serving in imperial german army.

Some nitpicking...

About 2000 were trained. And only 1261 participated in the independence/civil war.
http://www.uta.fi/suomi80/teema6.htm


So remembering that every generation prior to independence had fougth against Russians also, .

If you mean armed fighting. I do not remember reading about any armed resistance 1809-1917. Although there were some weapons smuggling affair and the Bobrikoff assassination. In this time period quite number of finns had military careers in the imperial russian army. No famous names need to be mentioned:)
But since you are a navy buff maybe you know the name of the finn who commanded a vessel or was it even a squadron in the infamous Tsushima battle??
Anyhow, plenty of fighting pre 1809 though.


After some five to ten years most are called into annual refferesment trainings...(I havent been yet :( )

Do not worry. Our defence forces both work and dysfunctions in mysterious ways :D
I waited for 16 years, and I know a person that waited for 20 before he got called.


Currently the 60 combat planes are still being maitaned in form of 57 F-18 Hornets and

F-18D is fully combat capable too. 57 C and 7 D were ordered. Two Cs have collided. One went down the other one got quite alot of damage. It is to be repaird at some point. But last I read it may not be to full combat status:confused:

So at the moment we have 62 fighters.

[Gauntlet]

After skimming through that handy pocket guide to the Finnish Armed Force (http://www.mil.fi./perustietoa/julka...ietoa05_en.pdf), I noticed something shocking! Your data on the Norwegian Armed Forces are a little wrong!

For example:
Norway:
Tanks: 170.
That is with only our old Leo 1s. We bought 60 Leo 2s from the Dutch in '01, making the grand total 230 tanks.

Fighters: 48
If we didnt loose 10 fighters this last week, we still has 58 F-16s.

Warships: 15
We have 15 MTBs alone. 14 boats from the 80's, with one of the new Skjold class (limited stealth capacity) delivered (6 in total by 2008).
We have 3 old frigates from the 70s, and we just fot the first of totally 5 brand new Frigates delivered. All of the rest will be delivered by 2009.
We got one large minelayer, and 8 large minesweepers/hunters.
And our coastguard operates 3 large helicopter carrying patrol vessels.
In total [REAL]: 23 (31 with minesweepers/hunters)

I am about to write a letter to the Finnish inteligence with this info! ;)


PS: Otherwise, splendid little pocket guide.

[Gollevainen]

If you mean armed fighting. I do not remember reading about any armed resistance 1809-1917. Although there were some weapons smuggling affair and the Bobrikoff assassination. In this time period quite number of finns had military careers in the imperial russian army. No famous names need to be mentioned
But since you are a navy buff maybe you know the name of the finn who commanded a vessel or was it even a squadron in the infamous Tsushima battle??
Anyhow, plenty of fighting pre 1809 though.

well that was exeption but as the relation goes back for some thusand years, we can forgive one century of almoust peacfull coexistence can we?:D

Do not worry. Our defence forces both work and dysfunctions in mysterious ways
I waited for 16 years, and I know a person that waited for 20 before he got called.

Well they frightened us 'Brigade2005' rapid-reaction artillerymens that refres trainings are going to hit us in 5 years. But my brother managed to ditch out in same brigade so that he was placed in 'military district's' reserve and migth never have to go refressing:mad:

After skimming through that handy pocket guide to the Finnish Armed Force (http://www.mil.fi./perustietoa/julka...ietoa05_en.pdf), I noticed something shocking! Your data on the Norwegian Armed Forces are a little wrong!


Well im not responsible of our defenceforces intelligence about Norway, but you can always do similar thread in here about norwaigian armed forces.

[BrotherofSnake]

Fighters: 48
If we didnt loose 10 fighters this last week, we still has 58 F-16s.


How did you guys lose those fighters? :confused:

[Gauntlet]

I was trying to say that since we didnt loose 10 fighters last week, we still have 57 (sorry, not 58) F-16s flying. I was just stating that the Finnish pocket folder used wrong numbers. :p