The Standard Missile

[IDonT]

Since the last thread was closed before I could respond, I will make a new topic.

The Standard Missile has a secondary anti-surface capability. Against ships that are packed with munitions, like the Sovremenny, it is deadly. It is armed with a 137 lb high explosive warhead. This can wreck havoc on the Sovs's electronics and spread fire to her volatile missiles.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/sm.htm

The Standard Missile is one of the most reliable in the Navy's inventory. Used against missiles, aircraft and ships, it first came into the fleet more than a decade ago.

Operation Praying Mantis in the late 80's, the Standard missile was use to sink several Iranian navy warships.

[Gollevainen]

...And standart isen't alone, Soviet S-125 (SA-N-1) SAM system was also capaple to be used against ships. Therefor Project 61 BPKs wheren't completely (in their orginal outfit) whitout anti-surface capapility. The S-125 missile supposedly dived from high altitude towards the target ship.

But as this topic is more suitable to the world defence forum, i'll move it to there...

[BrotherofSnake]

Do you know the top speed of the SM-2?

The SM-2 probably can't sink a Sovremenny, but it can definitely mission kill it.

[IDonT]

Do you know the top speed of the SM-2?
Somewhere around Mach 3

[vincelee]

several warships my ass. It killed a Greek made patrol corvette and damaged another. Against an armored target, I don't expect too much. Let's not forget the nature of the warhead here.

[swimmerXC]

yep, the warhead is too small to do major damage to an DDG or even a FFG.... i guess they can use the SM's on targets that aren't worth sinking with a harpoon, like FACs, patrol boats, patrol corvette....

[Sea Dog]

yep, the warhead is too small to do major damage to an DDG or even a FFG.... i guess they can use the SM's on targets that aren't worth sinking with a harpoon, like FACs, patrol boats, patrol corvette....

Well, right and wrong here. It's not just warhead size. It's also kinetic energy of the missile which does most of the damage. But the SM-2 does have a relatively large explosive warhead, not a small one. I believe 147 lbs (approx.) is pretty large, as far as a SAM goes. Also, it's dimensions are about the same as a Harpoon. It's kinetic energy can rip it through thick, hardened materials. Some SINKEX's have demonstrated it. And a Sovremenny target where you have exposed missile launchers, high RCS, large sensor masts, and lots of flammable materials would make the ideal SM-2 kill. I have no doubt that the AEGIS ships would utilize it's SM-2's in the anti-ship role if they made the tactical decision to do so. A strength to this is that they can ripple fire lots of them.

SM-2's may primarily be Surface to Air (AAW role), but you shouldn't underestimate them in the anti-ship role. AEGIS ships firing 8-12 towards a surface platform would likely damage or destroy exposed missile launchers and sensor masts (mission kill), and slice through the inside of the ship(killing personnel, destroying equipment and spreading fire). Once that's done a few Harpoons can come in to obliterate the rest of the target.

And BTW, most ship to ship warfare would be conducted within range of SM-2's capabilities. That is, unless carrier aircraft didn't get to the enemy fleet first (which is the most probable outcome anyway). In that regard, it is unlikely we will see Arleigh Burkes taking on PLAN ships directly. But if we did, Burkes would make mince meat out of em' IMO.

[bd popeye]

Excellent response Sea Dog.

SM-2 stats...

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=1200&ct=2

General Characteristics, SM-2 Block III/IIIA/IIIB Medium Range

Primary Function: Surface to air missile.
Contractor: Raytheon and others.
Date Deployed: 1981 (SM-2 MR).
Propulsion: Dual thrust, solid fuel rocket.
Length: 15 feet, 6 inches (4.72 meters).
Diameter: 13.5 inches (34.3 cm).
Wingspan: 3 feet 6 inches (1.08 meters).
Weight: SM-2: 1,558 pounds (708 kg).
Range: 40-90 nautical miles (46-104 statute miles).
Guidance System: Semi-active radar homing (IR in Block IIIB).
Warhead: Radar and contact fuse, blast-fragment warhead.

General Characteristics, SM-2 Block IV Extended Range

Primary Function: Fleet and extended area air defense.
Contractor: Raytheon and others.
Date Deployed: 1998.
Propulsion: Two-stage solid fuel rockets.
Length: 21 feet 6 inches with booster (6.55 meters).
Diameter: 21 inches (booster) (34.3 cm).
Wingspan: 3 feet 6 inches (1.08 meters).
Weight: 3,225 pounds (1466 kg).
Range: 100-200 nautical miles (115-230 statute miles).
Guidance System: Semi-active radar homing.
Warhead: Radar and contact fuse, blast-fragment warhead.

[BrotherofSnake]

Since the SM-2 has a secondary surface to surface role, can Patriot PAC-2s fire at land based threats?

[vincelee]

if you have a radar LOS with the intended target. But why would you ever want to spend a mil dollar missile on a ground target?

[ger_mark]

Since the SM-2 has a secondary surface to surface role, can Patriot PAC-2s fire at land based threats?


maybe if the enemy troops are on a wide open landscape, but i dont think they are that stupid

[MIGleader]

the pac 2 is probably good against partrol craft only. i dont think it will have good sucess penatrateing the ak-630s cause it comes from up top. it would probalby just knock out the part of the sov it hit, not even mission kill. if it could kill destroyers, you dont need the harpoons anymore!

[ger_mark]

the pac 2 is probably good against partrol craft only.

lol
unlike the chinese sams pac2 is able to take down modern fighters and even cruise missiles

[MIGleader]

lol
unlike the chinese sams pac2 is able to take down modern fighters and even cruise missiles

chinese sams will take out tour house if u dont stop posting stupid nationalist crap. the pac, in ITS SURFACE ATTACK MODE, can only take on patrol craft.
yeah, but the pac2 just cant seem to get those silkworms...

[ger_mark]

actually the iraqis shot 15 silkworms against kuwait
9 of them have been destroyed

the other targets were not fought because they have not been in a route wich dangers a protected aerea

[MIGleader]

actually the iraqis shot 15 silkworms against kuwait
9 of them have been destroyed

the other targets were not fought because they have not been in a route wich dangers a protected aerea

some proof? can u ever stop using the word all? even if one slips through, that means there is a flaw.

[BrotherofSnake]

some proof? can u ever stop using the word all? even if one slips through, that means there is a flaw.

Echo Battery, 2nd Battalion, 43rd Air Defense Artillery fired and successfully engaged with the first PAC-3 missiles in combat. The Patriot also hit several non-Scud missiles launched against Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, including anti-ship missiles like the Silkworm missile. These missiles arc low to the ground (50km) compared to the Scud missiles which enter the stratosphere, allowing much less time to target and intercept the missile. As a result several of the missiles did get through but their effect was minimal.
:nana:

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/thisweek/2003_4_1_misd.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile#Usage_during_the_2003_invasion_of_ Iraq

[vincelee]

apparently the German doesn't know what cost effectiveness and second fire role mean, and little Banana (yellow on the outside, white on the inside) is just repeating stuff he doesn't understand.

Going back to the original topic of using the PAC2 in SURFACE TO SURFACE mode, it can be done, probably. After all the PAC2 used TVM, which means it's under radar guidance during the entire flight path. So if a battalion of T-72s is advancing on your position in open terrain, which means you are presented with a clear line of fire, and a certain German in our forum is in command and decides to engage enemy armor with a SAM battery due to either testosterone or alcohol poisoning (or really, just the lack of a good brain), and some how, your radar can suppress the massive background return and discriminate against the incoming armor, then yes, you can engage them.

Do note that in practice, it's inpractical, even impossible, to implement the kind of signal analysis and filter required to turn an air search/illumination radar into a SAR.

[FreeAsia2000]

apparently the German doesn't know what cost effectiveness and second fire role mean, and little Banana (yellow on the outside, white on the inside) is just repeating stuff he doesn't understand.

Going back to the original topic of using the PAC2 in SURFACE TO SURFACE mode, it can be done, probably. After all the PAC2 used TVM, which means it's under radar guidance during the entire flight path. So if a battalion of T-72s is advancing on your position in open terrain, which means you are presented with a clear line of fire, and a certain German in our forum is in command and decides to engage enemy armor with a SAM battery due to either testosterone or alcohol poisoning (or really, just the lack of a good brain), and some how, your radar can suppress the massive background return and discriminate against the incoming armor, then yes, you can engage them.

Do note that in practice, it's inpractical, even impossible, to implement the kind of signal analysis and filter required to turn an air search/illumination radar into a SAR.


Very well argued.
ger_mark do you have any response to that based strictly on technical
criteria and not opinions ?

[MIGleader]

Echo Battery, 2nd Battalion, 43rd Air Defense Artillery fired and successfully engaged with the first PAC-3 missiles in combat. The Patriot also hit several non-Scud missiles launched against Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, including anti-ship missiles like the Silkworm missile. These missiles arc low to the ground (50km) compared to the Scud missiles which enter the stratosphere, allowing much less time to target and intercept the missile. As a result several of the missiles did get through but their effect was minimal.
:nana:

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/thisweek/2003_4_1_misd.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile#Usage_during_the_2003_invasion_of_ Iraq

yeah, in a dewsert landscape a few missles getting through are fine, but what if its new york? can u affor a few misses then?

[Sea Dog]

Well, this is now totally off topic. I thought this thread dealt with the Standard Missile. But I will interject one thing. If the U.S. military wanted to destroy land targets, there are far better and more efficient ways to do it than with a PAC-2 (if even possible). But the Patriots have proven very effective as a SAM. Even with a couple of problems most PAC shots have been spot on.

Now back to the topic. I've heard the Standard Missile family will also include a Land attack variant in the near future. Therefore Standards will be able to kill aircraft, missiles, ships, and land-targets in a very effective manner.

[tphuang]

I will post this once and for all. PAC2 that were used against the Scuds in operation desert storm were really ineffective. It was widely reported that they destroyed the scuds, but in fact they didn't. The wikipedia link just carries on that myth. Check Ted Koppel's report on Patriot's performance against the scuds. A documentary was shown recently. It was quite an eye opener for me personally. If you don't believe me, just remember what was shown on TV during those days:
1. Israel getting hit by the Scuds like there was no tomorrow
2. The software failure that caused the majority of American death in ODS
3. Watching TV, seeing how the American commander Norman Schwartz were saying patriot missiles destroyed Scud here, here and here, but Scud kept on going anyways.

In Operation Iraqi freedom, a couple of things stuck to me:
1. A RAF plane getting shot down by PAC3
2. An american plane destroying a patriot missile battery because it sensed that a SAM battery locked onto it.

[MIGleader]

Well, this is now totally off topic. I thought this thread dealt with the Standard Missile. But I will interject one thing. If the U.S. military wanted to destroy land targets, there are far better and more efficient ways to do it than with a PAC-2 (if even possible). But the Patriots have proven very effective as a SAM. Even with a couple of problems most PAC shots have been spot on.

Now back to the topic. I've heard the Standard Missile family will also include a Land attack variant in the near future. Therefore Standards will be able to kill aircraft, missiles, ships, and land-targets in a very effective manner.

well, its a bout time. the russians have had a progrm like that for a while.
well, wht troiubles me is, why did japnese pac threes not shoot down the missle fired from nk?

[adeptitus]

yep, the warhead is too small to do major damage to an DDG or even a FFG.... i guess they can use the SM's on targets that aren't worth sinking with a harpoon, like FACs, patrol boats, patrol corvette....

In some cases the warhead doesn't need to explode to kill or mission-kill a ship. In the Falklands war the Argentine scored a hit on the HMS Sheffield with an Exocet missile. The missile warhead did not explode, but the fuel from the missile splattered allover the ship and caused a fire that burned it to a hulk.

[MIGleader]

yep, the warhead is too small to do major damage to an DDG or even a FFG.... i guess they can use the SM's on targets that aren't worth sinking with a harpoon, like FACs, patrol boats, patrol corvette....

its called the main gun. and it even has a longer range than the pac-2 in surface attack mode.

[Sea Dog]

well, its a bout time. the russians have had a progrm like that for a while.
well, wht troiubles me is, why did japnese pac threes not shoot down the missle fired from nk?

What is the Russian program? Sounds interesting. About the PAC-3's. From what I understand, the major problems have been worked out. And there are block enhancements coming.

I forgot to add, with the SM-3's, the Standards are also able to destroy ballistic missiles. :)