Peculiar Chinese military installation: Scale Model Landscape

[Jeff Head]

Can anyone provide any information or discussion on the following? We have what appears to be a military installation near the remote Chinese village of Huangyangtan with a large, very detailed scale model of mountanous landscape next to it...abut 900m by 700m. Here's two pictures of the installation and the a close up of the scale model.

http://regmedia.co.uk/2006/07/19/huangyangtan_wide.jpg

http://regmedia.co.uk/2006/07/19/huangyangtan_medium.jpg

Now here's close up of a part of the scale model terrain, followed by the actual terrain that it represents as seen from Google Earth:

http://regmedia.co.uk/2006/07/19/huangyangtan_comparison_clo.jpg

Any idea what this represents and is about. Is it purely a a geographic, geologic thing for the PRC or are their military implications. They went to a lot of trouble and expense to create this for some reason.

[Player 0]

Perhaps the PLA is planning to set up a base underneath these mountains, or will use the area as a special training ground to train mountain fighting troops.

Or perhaps the model itself is supposed to be sort of a training device for officers, familiarize them with a landscape they may face in the future.

[swimmerXC]

Perhaps the PLA is planning to set up a base underneath these mountains, or will use the area as a special training ground to train mountain fighting troops.

Or perhaps the model itself is supposed to be sort of a training device for officers, familiarize them with a landscape they may face in the future.

It's way to small for a base, people say that it is a scale picture of the border between China and India

[Jeff Head]

Or perhaps the model itself is supposed to be sort of a training device for officers, familiarize them with a landscape they may face in the future.If this is the case, then India better pa special attention to that particular border area.

Very interesting observations and thoughts...perhaps they are looking at building a "Cheyenne Mountain" there, but I would expect such an underground base would be much further in the interior and not near a border area.

My guess is that it is some type of training model, whether geared towards a specific, future operation in that particular area or not is unknown.

[Seacraft]

It maps out an area about 350 miles north of New Dehli near the India / Kashmir area. I snapshot & rotated my Google earth image 90 CCW and it is a dead ringer...

Interesting

http://www.totallykidscc.com/stuff/india4.jpg

http://www.totallykidscc.com/stuff/indiakashmir3.jpg

[adeptitus]

Back in college I used to major in environmental science (before swtiching to business). That looks like a giant model for water/soil erosion study, though I don't think anyone ever built one THAT big.

It doesn't make much sense as a military model either. You wouldn't spend that much $ just to have infantry and vehicles roll over the fake mountains and destroy them. For the air force, I think it's a lot cheaper to use simulators. Also, this huge scale-model is not concealed, so any activity on it is open for everyone to see via sat photos.

[Jeff Head]

It maps out an area about 350 miles north of New Dehli near the India / Kashmir area. I snapshot & rotated my Google earth image 90 CCW and it is a dead ringer...InterestingGreat find and thanks! I had heard it was near or along the Indian border...and you have just verified it. Very interesting indeed.

Back in college I used to major in environmental science (before swtiching to business). That looks like a giant model for water/soil erosion study, though I don't think anyone ever built one THAT big.

It doesn't make much sense as a military model either. You wouldn't spend that much $ just to have infantry and vehicles roll over the fake mountains and destroy them. For the air force, I think it's a lot cheaper to use simulators. Also, this huge scale-model is not concealed, so any activity on it is open for everyone to see via sat photos.Those are possibilities. They could also be using it for training (and I do not mean putting troops into the model). They could be ranging, establishing fire zones, etc. They could also be doing things like calibrating spy satellite images, etc. Could also be water/soil/erosion. Hard to say.

[swimmerXC]

What's this?
Chinese website says "解放军某训练中心卫星图"
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/592/13507574200608011313174971720080106xd2.jpg

[Jeff Head]

What's this?
Chinese website says "解放军某训练中心卫星图"
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/592/13507574200608011313174971720080106xd2.jpg Well, that appears to be a land-based training deck for an LPD.

What does the Chinese say?

Where is the location?

The lift arrangement looks like a Taraw class...but the island and the forward part of the deck are clearly not the same.

[adeptitus]

Well, that appears to be a land-based training deck for an LPD.
What does the Chinese say?
Where is the location?
The lift arrangement looks like a Taraw class...but the island and the forward part of the deck are clearly not the same.

The Chinese description reads "Peoples Liberation Army training center satellite map (photo)".

The "drawing" seems to be temporary. If you look at the other fading images on the ground, it looks like they had something else drawn there before, then replaced it with a newer drawing. I'm thinking of the chalk powder we use to draw baseball diamonds? Except this is on much larger scale, and prolly done with spray-on material.

If you look at the other silver-ish box, it looks a bit like a concrete pad with drawings that resemble the helicopter landing pad on back of a ship. I think this is prolly a training facility.

[swimmerXC]

Well, that appears to be a land-based training deck for an LPD.

What does the Chinese say?

Where is the location?

The lift arrangement looks like a Taraw class...but the island and the forward part of the deck are clearly not the same.

Looks like flight deck of Varyag srunken alittle

[yoda9999]

According to someone at CDF this is Marine Corps Base Hawaii (MCBH). Looks correct:

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=21.455745,-157.772019&spn=0.003964,0.004828&om=1

The internet is a funny place, isn't it? :D

[Jeff Head]

According to someone at CDF this is Marine Corps Base Hawaii (MCBH). Looks correct:

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=21.455745,-157.772019&spn=0.003964,0.004828&om=1

The internet is a funny place, isn't it? :DYes it is!

Thanks...I thought the outline looked lot like a Tarawa class. When you do the hybrid, which includes the Sat and the Map. it appears to be just what you said. Thanks.

Now, back to the original topic...that installation the Chinese have created.

[alexander]

My guess is that it is some type of training model, whether geared towards a specific, future operation in that particular area or not is unknown.

I agree with Jeff Head. In my past we used allways (if there was time enough) to prepare to future area of operations on a smaller scale back in our staging area. With the help of that, we trainend the different operational steps. Obviously not with the whole crew, just the officers and may be the NCOs. Neither we used our vehicles or arms. Just on foot.
With this approach the commander was allways able to go through the operation plan and check if everyone had understood the process.

Now, "if I would" plan to take action in the mentioned area, then I would build a small scale "terrain" (like it has been done) and train at least the commanders (down to NCO if possible).

[Jeff Head]

I agree with Jeff Head. In my past we used allways (if there was time enough) to prepare to future area of operations on a smaller scale back in our staging area. With the help of that, we trainend the different operational steps.The scale of the model is just...well, impressive.

900 meters on the long side! That's over 1/2 mile! 700 meters on the other. And such detail! A very expensive undertaking.

I am sure with it being posted so much on the internet now that the Indians have taken serious note of it and are making their own inquiries.

I'd like to be able to walk into thjat model and check out the topography and elevations. Also its operations. For example...is water being pumped into the thing and recirculated so that the rivers are actually flowing?

[googeler]

What if they built it just to intimidate the Indians - to let them know that there is always a military solution to their border dispute? I mean if it's on Google Earth it was also seen by the Indian sattelite(s).

[yoda9999]

I don't think India needs to be concerned about this scale model. They and China are negotiating over this disputed area anyways.

Here's some info on the disputed area. The political map shows the same features and bodies of water:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksai_Chin

Here's the Google discussion from the guy who found this:
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/510687/page/vc/vc/1

If this has a current military application, they probably would've put some protective covering over it. Leaving it out exposed to the elements, this model could deform and erode over time. Maybe it's an old model that has been abandoned now that they have 3D satellite imaging.

Of course, the scale model could be part of a PLA global psychology experiment to study global internet behavior, search engine patterns, Google Earth usage, public reactions, Indian reactions, etc. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. :D

[Jeff Head]

I don't think India needs to be concerned about this scale model. They and China are negotiating over this disputed area anyways.Well, if I were negotiating a settlement to border issues that had in the past resulted in warfare with a strong neighbor, and found that he had built an entire scale model of just that area which we were negotiating...I would be on my guard. I am sure India is on its guard in any case in such discussions, as is the PRC. This appears to me to just give one more reason to be so.

[Defense]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/web/the-riddle-of-chinas-area-51/2006/08/14/1155407679963.html

August 14, 2006

On the internet, a little mystery can go a long way.

Six weeks ago, a man living in Germany and calling himself KenGrok, announced a fascinating discovery on a Google Earth Community forum.

Poring over satellite images of China on the free Google Earth service, he came across a strange plot of land - approximately 900m by 700m, about the size of six Sydney Cricket Grounds.

The land, which KenGrok reckoned was landscape that had been modelled for military purposes, is situated near the town of Huangyangtan about 35km from Yinchuan, the capital of the autonomous region of Ningxia, in northern China.

Nearby, there is a substantial facility complete with rows of red-roofed buildings, scores of what look to be military trucks and a large compound with elevated lookout posts and a large communications tower.

The land was contoured in a way that was out of sync with the surrounding countryside.

It appeared to be a mountainous region, complete with snow-capped peaks and glacial valleys dotted with numerous lakes.

Yet this swatch of land was slap bang in the middle of a largely arid area due west of the rich alluvial plains bordering the upper reaches of the Yellow River.

A fellow Google Earth enthusiast suggested that the topography of the model indicated that this was probably land on one of China's frontiers.

KenGrok went looking and two weeks later came back with the answer. The swatch was a scale model of 157,500 sq km of territory in and around China's Aksai Chin border region that abuts India and Pakistan.

The scale is exactly 500:1.

Tim Brown, a senior fellow specialising in satellite imagery analysis at GlobalSecurity.org, said it was one of the more intriguing discoveries he'd come across.

He said while he was aware of military trainers using terrain models, these were most only a much smaller scale.

"These days, while terrain modelling is not completely obsolete, they do rely much more on computer-based simulation," he said.

That's not to say that the Chinese, with their vast pool of manpower, have scrapped the practise.

Last week a reader posted a link on our own MashUp blog which led to a Chinese site - wforum.com - where in late July a reader has posted a photo showing men in blue overalls on what looks to be another large-scale terrain model.

The caption does not clearly state where or when the photo was taken but it is watermarked "Xinhua" - the New China News Agency, China's state-run new agency.

Although the land on which the model is based Chinese territory, it is also claimed by India and the two sides fought a brief war over the area in 1962.

Covering an area the size of Switzerland, the Aksai Chin region is a high altitude desert plateau. It contains a strategically important highway 219 that connects the far north western province of Xinjiang with Tibet.

While that explained what this man-made landscape was, it didn't explain why there was a need to construct such an elaborate terrain model some 2400km to the east.

In the ensuing month, debate and discussion has raged across the length and breadth of the world wide web.

The story has been reported across the world in many languages by bloggers and news websites. It's become the topic of discussion on forums, blogs and bulletin boards.

Everyone from conspiracy theorists to model railway enthusiasts has joined in the debate, marvelling at the size and complexity of the structure and speculating as to its purpose.

Among the many theories doing the rounds are that the terrain model is:

:: A navigation/gunnery training area where drones drop small flour or paint bombs in an exercise to simulate trajectories and dispersal patterns.

:: A model of the catchment areas of China's major river systems, simulating the effects of climate change.

:: A model to study the dispersal patterns for chemical or biological weapons.

:: A large-scale mini putt-putt course

The Indian Express newspaper website last week quoted an unnamed Indian officer who had served in the region saying that while the military was aware that the Chinese had training facilities to prepare its forces in the event of an outbreak of hostilities in the disputed region, "the scale and detail is something new to us".

Still the mystery remains unsolved. Why is it there? How long has it been there? And how is it used.

When the Beijing correspondent for The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age contacted local officials last month, she was told that the area is a tank training facility that had been there for seven or eight years.

But this theory is dismissed by GlobalSecurity,org's Tim Brown who says that the scale of the model is just too small.

Moreover, as the actual land which the model represents is on a plateau 5000m above sea level, it would make tank warfare difficult if not impossible.

However, he did say there is evidence of a live fire range and a tank training course further to the north of the terrain model.

Brown says that that the facility is unlikely to be a hold over from the 1962 conflict. He points out the lack of vegetation around the base, indicating that it was only recently constructed.

The size of the model also means that it is unsuitable for training pilots - unless they use it as a walk-through terrain visualisation training exercise.

All of which lead Brown to speculate that the model is all about what he calls "perception management."

"It could be that it's just there as a morale builder, " he says.. "I mean look, even I'm impressed by what they've done."

[DPRKPTboat]

Judging by the description of the facility in question, it doesn't look like much. If you've ever seen satellite photos of Area 51, you'll see that it is a large complex facility, complete with a runway. This place doesn't have a runway, so i doubt it is an aerospace testing facility like Area 51. It sounds like a normal outpost. However, i admit it is unusual the chinese would make a scale model of the base, but thats probably no more than a regular construction proceedure (the article says the base was recently constructed). It could be a secret research facility, but since it is on the border with India, it doesn't sound like a stable place to site a base to test cutting-edge technology.
But the fact that such a large area has been modelled for some sort of test is intruiging. This would be a good place to test high-tech new vehicles and weapons, but for all we know, China could just be using this area for regular military exercises, probably intended to intimidate India.

I moved the post because they cover the same subject

bd popeye moderator