Feelings about the KMT, post yours

[sze_j86]

Hey so i was reading a little bit of history about China, and i'd like to know what your opinions are in regards to the KMT, and what your point of view of who they were and what they contributed to Chinese history. Please don't turn this into a huge arguement, but rather just state your opinion. thx


:)

[The_Zergling]

It might help a bit if you started off with some of the conclusions or thoughts you may have come to after going through the history of China?

Honestly speaking I don't have a very clear understanding of the KMT before it came to Taiwan. If you're also interested in that, then okay.

[eecsmaster]

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I think it might be interesting to you that the mainland stopped demonizing the KMT about 10 years ago. I'll leave the motive interpretations up to you.

[The_Zergling]

Well, considering that the DPP first started gaining popularity and the ability to be voted into places of power, it makes sense that the PRC would prefer supporting the KMT over it.

What's better than supporting Taiwan's internal turmoil? Jokes aside, fact of the matter is that the KMT has always been tilting towards a "One-China" stance, just that their original stance used to be, "We're going to take back China", whereas nowadays it's more a mix between, "Do anything they want, just for God's sake don't provoke them into attacking" and "We have more spots in the legislature, so you can't do shit, nyah nyah."

This stance is more favorable (from a PRC POV) than the current (Taiwan) government's, "Don't tread on me. At least not without permission of the people. If so, then you may curbstomp me however you like."

[Violet Oboe]

Chen Shui-Bian is rapidly losing control about his own government and Ma Ying-jeou knows that all to well. Ma plays the waiting game and he will become president in 2008 or earlier if Chen stumbles upon his families scandals.

Once in power he will have to deal soon with a new administration in Washington which will face a daunting burden of cleaning up the global mess produced by 8 years of G.W. Bush failed policies. KMT knows it has to adapt to the new era and they are already learning that the window of opportunity for ´independence´ (the chance was actually real between 1993-2001) has invariably closed.

A democratic administration in Washington will sell independence forces on Taiwan down the river just like Carter did in 1979. Taiwan is just a small pawn on the global chessboard and conducting some democratic elections is not turning a pawn into queen. But some in KMT are obviously knowing the rules of chess very well since a viable deal with PRC (may be like Hongkong + autonomous security forces) will promote the taiwanpawn on the last row into a queen. Alone Taiwan is a small, vulnerable island country totally dependent on a foreign major power half a globe away, after a honorable and orderly reintegration (look at Hongkong and Macao´s successstory after 97/99) Taiwan will be part of a ascending world power second to none in the twentyfirst century.

[yoda9999]

I wonder if there's any possibility that the CPC will give the KMT some token power on the mainland. Like let KMT politicians run for office in small towns or districts where there are already Taiwanese busineses. If I'm not mistaken, the dream of the KMT is to return to some form of power on the mainland. Some sort of CPC-KMT power sharing scheme should not be out of the question. According to Peoples Daily, China technically has small minor parties outside the CPC.

[Finn McCool]

Taiwan is very valueable to the United States. It serves as a strategic check on China. It plays a major role in reining in China's naval power. The fact that China has lots of missles and a good part of its military pointed at Taiwan is something that causes uneasiness among other East Asian nations that might otherwise be more under Chinese rather than American influence. Lastly, Taiwan is a cash cow for the US. Conventional trade between the two is good, but arms trade is even better. And one must never underestimate the power of arms companies over the US government. So the US will try to keep Taiwan in ther situation it is in.

As for the KMT, I think they had a good idea for a while and would have taken over and ruled China if it weren't for the Japanese invasion and a few key blunders in the Civil War after WWII. I think that KMT rule would have been good for China. It would have gotten a lot of US aid during the Cold War, as it borders the USSR and its leaders would have had an automatic distrust of communism. The Mao years would have been avoided, along with the Cultural Revolution. China might have been very similar the West Germany. Perhaps Manuchuria would have been a Soviet client state. A lot of problems that slowed Asia down in the 2nd half of the 20th century would have been avoided, like the Korean and Vietnam Wars. As the KMT would probably have been more receptive to democracy (just look at what happened on Taiwan) than the CCP, China would probably be democratic today. And since China wouldn't have been closed to the world at the time, it would have had its economic explosion at the same time as the other Asian tigers, which would mean that it would have a much more mature and modern society with a middle class, etc. Lastly, the future of the 21st century might have been brighter. If China and the US were allies in the Cold War, there would not be so much distrust between them, no Taiwan issue, no China Threat Theory in the US. China and America would be strategic partners in maintaining stability worldwide, a partnership that would be good for all mankind.

Sadly, the CCP won the Civil War, and changed the course of histroy to go down a different road. We have yet to see where that road will lead mankind, because now that China has risen, it will have an affect on the whole world and its history. :china: :(

[Obcession]

I wonder if there's any possibility that the CPC will give the KMT some token power on the mainland. Like let KMT politicians run for office in small towns or districts where there are already Taiwanese busineses. If I'm not mistaken, the dream of the KMT is to return to some form of power on the mainland. Some sort of CPC-KMT power sharing scheme should not be out of the question. According to Peoples Daily, China technically has small minor parties outside the CPC.

The elections in small towns and villages that are held now do not necessarily have candidates that run for a party. Rather, it is who is more capable of delivering a fair and prosperous village to the people. They couldn't care less if the candidate was KMT or CCP.

Yes, China does technically have some KMT parties (Yes, it wasn't a typo. I mentioned "some"). According to my Chinese encyclopedia (which I haven't opened in 1 or 2 years, but I still remember a few things), there are about 4-5 different KMT parties and 6-7 CCP parties. I also believe that there are KMT members in the People's Congress, not sure though.

I would rather prefer the KMT and CCP to run the country together as well. The KMT has an important place in Chinese history and it deserves to have some sort of power.

On the other hand, given the political situation at present, it is very hard to do any major changes without someone trying to sabotage it, whether for political beliefs or personal gain.

Now, onto my personal opinion for the KMT,

The KMT was a symbol of hope change, freedom, and national pride back in Dr.Sun's days. (Note that this is my personal opinion) I also believed in everything KMT. The 青天白日旗 (Blue sky white sun flag), the 4 statements, everything.

Then Chiang Kai-Shek (Jiang Jie Shi) came along and ruined everything. Once a proud revolutionary force and working for the people has been corrupted. Chiang wanted power, by whatever means, enough said. He sacrificed millions of Chinese lives just so he can fight his fellow countrymen and kill millions of other Chinese lives. He allowed the great hope of the people to be corrupted so much that it was no better than the warlords of that era. The ideals of Dr. Sun have been forgotten.

On Taiwan: The only thing I can say about them now is that they still consider themselves Chinese. Good for them.

On China: I remain skeptical about the reasons for their existence. They're there so that the CCP can tell the people "Look, China is democratic, because we have other parties. It is the will of the people that the CCP is in power." (My opinion)

Sadly, the CCP won the Civil War, and changed the course of histroy to go down a different road. We have yet to see where that road will lead mankind, because now that China has risen, it will have an affect on the whole world and its history.

I personally saw your last 2 paragraphs as pointless. There are too many "what if's" in history to tell. No offense intended.

[Finn McCool]

I personally saw your last 2 paragraphs as pointless. There are too many "what if's" in history to tell. No offense intended.

I was just logically figuring what would have happened if the KMT won the Civil War. None of that stuff is too wacky. I agree with you that there is a good possibility that much of that would not have happened. However, I think that what I wrote is the most logical and plausible scenario. I based most of what I wrote on what the US actually did foreign policy-wise during that period, and the experience of Taiwan under KMT rule. I also removed a Communist China from other situations, like the Korean War, and replaced tt with a nuetral or pro-US China. So as you can see all of my conclusions, or at least 90% of them are plausible.

[Violet Oboe]

Taiwan will only be so long of strategic value for US as the politcal, military and economic usefulness of Taiwan is setting off the price US has to pay for this. Notably Taiwan was not a pleasant weapon customer in the last 5-6 years for US defense companies. Although some make a big fuss about some 25 year old second hand destroyers and a couple of patriot (pac-2) batteries and a bunch of AAM missiles not even stored on Taiwan.:rofl:

Remember the big deal of the eight diesel submarines! In absence of happening that Santa Claus pays the giant bill (legislative yuan certainly will not throw up to 12 billion $ out of the window) Chen Shui-bian will go down with all eight of his yellow paper submarines. Furthermore someone can be rightfully critical of PLAN´s submarine fleet (an obsolete ming boat went down with men and mice in 03) but at least they are building 6-8 subs (Song,Yuan,093,094) a year and these babies are consisting of steel not of drawing board pipe dreams. :D

The new F-16 D deal which was ventilated in Washington last week will also go down in history as a stillborn child since Taiwan neither has the prerequisite political environment (DPP majority in leg. Yuan) nor the military need (72 F-16 will have only a very marginal effect on PLAAF-ROCA balance which is already tilting heavily towards PLAAF for years now) for this deal going through.

[renmin]

Sadly, the CCP won the Civil War, and changed the course of histroy to go down a different road. We have yet to see where that road will lead mankind, because now that China has risen, it will have an affect on the whole world and its history. :china: :(What do you mean sadly? The KMT at that time practically became criminals. They started raiding chinese homes and stealing personal belongings. Oh and I bet few of you know about the KMT's plan to bomb the city of chongqing. The plan was, the KMT set around 20 barrels containing poisonous chemicals in the sewers of chongqing. In 20 years, the barrels would rot and the chemicals would leak out mixing with the sewege poluting the water system. Of course, this attempt failed for the chinese police gathered enough info from KMT spies in china to find and disarm the bombs. Thousands could of died.

[Roger604]

There is an article I highly recommend, I excerpt the relevant parts here

Some six decades ago, China emerged from a century of semi-colonial feudal economy dominated by foreign interests into the beginning of a sovereign modern socialist society based on agrarian revolutionary ideology, which continues to inform Chinese politics today. The path of escape from semi-colonialism was through anti-imperialism by political revolution against a decrepit dynasty. The political struggle for national revival was complex and protracted, spanning almost a century of violence that included a post-revolution civil war that has yet to end after the establishment of the People's Republic.

...

While the factors behind the defeat of the Kuomintang by the CCP have since been controversially debated among conservative Western historians, to most Chinese observers the key factor behind the failure of KMT was clearly its self-inflicted inability to cultivate and keep the support of the Chinese peasantry. It is the unavoidable fate that awaits any political party in China should it make the same mistake, be it imperial, monarchist, fascist, capitalist or communist. In Chinese political culture, support from the peasantry is known commonly as the Mandate of Heaven (Tian-ming). Chinese communism has strong and distinctive historical and indigenous roots that 19th-century Marxism and 20th-century Leninism re-energized.

At the top of the list of obvious reasons why the KMT fell was pervasive official corruption, which was related to inflation. Prices rose throughout KMT rule at more than 30% a year but the salary of government officials, already suffering from traditional institutional defect of below-market pay for the bureaucracy, were not indexed, so bureaucrats could not survive financially without corrupt sources of extra income. Yet the real and fatal corruption was the super-greed at the highest levels of government, which set unsavory standards for the entire public sector. Perpetrators could feel safe from persecution as long as they did not steal more than their superiors. It was an open secret that after the Nationalist Treasury ran dry from official corruption and war, the three top political families, the Chiangs, the Songs and the Kungs, related through marriages, were the exclusive beneficiaries of massive US financial aid to China from 1942-49.

Hyperinflation in the last days of KMT rule, which was caused in no small way by high-level corruption in large-scale monetary fraud, robbed the KMT of all popular support. On August 19, 1948, with US aid, a new gold-backed yuan was issued at an exchange rate of 4 yuan to a US dollar. By mid-May 1949, the yuan fell to 23.3 million to a dollar. Less than five months later, on October 1, 1949, when the People's Republic was proclaimed by the CCP, the KMT had already fled to Taiwan. The fact that the KMT fell from power with the free fall of its currency explains why China is hypersensitive about the danger of hyperinflation associated with a free-floating and freely convertible yuan.

Another reason for the demise of the KMT was that, chiefly because of its elitist outlook, the party suffered from a preference for a small number of top cadres from the time of its founding. The shortage of committed cadres was further exacerbated by the war with Japan, in which more than 100,000 young officers became casualties, two-thirds of the new graduates of the Central Military Academy, plus 19,000 of the 24,000 young civilian cadres trained for mass-mobilization and development tasks.

Even before the war, the KMT had put low priority on social reform and, in particular, the redistribution of land. The KMT relied on the conservative absentee-landlord class living in luxury in cities for support in its halfhearted resistance against Japanese aggression. After the war, US anti-communist influence prevented the KMT from introducing critically needed social reform. KMT policies, hijacked by the national bourgeoisie and conservative landlords, neglected the interior countryside and its peasant population in favor of coastal cities artificially buoyant with foreign capital, giving a false impression of a growing economy while the nation was actually falling into socio-economic chaos.

Finally, the KMT, as a political amalgam of diverse special-interest groups and privileged social classes, exclusive of the peasant masses, the only class that really counts in Chinese politics, became paralyzed by internecine factional conflicts that prevented the natural emergence of any politics of self-preservation.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HG22Ad01.html

[Finn McCool]

What do you mean sadly? The KMT at that time practically became criminals. They started raiding chinese homes and stealing personal belongings. Oh and I bet few of you know about the KMT's plan to bomb the city of chongqing. The plan was, the KMT set around 20 barrels containing poisonous chemicals in the sewers of chongqing. In 20 years, the barrels would rot and the chemicals would leak out mixing with the sewege poluting the water system. Of course, this attempt failed for the chinese police gathered enough info from KMT spies in china to find and disarm the bombs. Thousands could of died.

Well, I was saying that Communist rule in China caused much conflict for the entire world. Much more than if the KMT had won. The Korean War and Vietnam are just two examples. Also, the Chinese people would have been spared the deprivations of the Mao era and the Cultural Revolution. It is possible/probable that China would have recieved quite a bit of American aid. That would have helped the Chinese people get over the worst of the post-WWII era. More obviously China would not have remained in poverty when Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore all had their economic rise, because China would not have been closed and communist.

I'm not saying that the KMT didn't do bad things. They did. But the economic and political forces that would have acted on China if the KMT had remained in power would have made it a better place to live today. It's hard to prove, and you can argue the other way, but its my opinion.

It's even more hard to argue that Asia today (outside of China) would be better off if China had not gone communist. Imagine an Asia with a Vietnam that had never experienced a Vietnam War and was economically vibrant. Imagine and Asia with one Korea, also prosperous, and without the brutal Kim reigime and its destabilizing influence. Imagine an Asia without the Taiwan crisis, the most destabilizing force in the reigion. Lastly imagine an Asia with an economically mature China, that had already experienced a meteoric rise and was now settled down, like Taiwan, South Korea or Japan. All of these conclusions are logical. And they amount to a more stable, prosperous and happy Asia, and by extension China.

[renmin]

Well, I was saying that Communist rule in China caused much conflict for the entire world. Much more than if the KMT had won. The Korean War and Vietnam are just two examples. Also, the Chinese people would have been spared the deprivations of the Mao era and the Cultural Revolution. It is possible/probable that China would have recieved quite a bit of American aid. That would have helped the Chinese people get over the worst of the post-WWII era. More obviously China would not have remained in poverty when Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore all had their economic rise, because China would not have been closed and communist.

I'm not saying that the KMT didn't do bad things. They did. But the economic and political forces that would have acted on China if the KMT had remained in power would have made it a better place to live today. It's hard to prove, and you can argue the other way, but its my opinion.

It's even more hard to argue that Asia today (outside of China) would be better off if China had not gone communist. Imagine an Asia with a Vietnam that had never experienced a Vietnam War and was economically vibrant. Imagine and Asia with one Korea, also prosperous, and without the brutal Kim reigime and its destabilizing influence. Imagine an Asia without the Taiwan crisis, the most destabilizing force in the reigion. Lastly imagine an Asia with an economically mature China, that had already experienced a meteoric rise and was now settled down, like Taiwan, South Korea or Japan. All of these conclusions are logical. And they amount to a more stable, prosperous and happy Asia, and by extension China.Are you blaming the Veitnam and korean wars on China?!:mad: :mad: The start of the war never had anything to do with the PRC. Even if the KMT ruled china, the korean and veitnam wars would still happen. They were ment to happen. China may have played a big role in the korean conflict but they only gave supplies and did repairs in the veitnam war. The mess up of the cultural revolution had nothing to do with Mao. Are you saying Mao is evil?! I heard this BS a billion times already. When will people learn the true reason why the cultural revolution was so screwed up. It had nothing to do with Mao's reign!

[Gollevainen]

Alright, I think we have had enough, thanks for your wievs and once again you have prooved to everyone why we don't allow political discussion and are extremely cauntious towards everything related to Taiwan.

thread closed!