Pakistan Air Force Modernization

[Diving Falcon]

PAF gets a shot in the arm, and new wings:

Sep 10, 2005

Pakistan's key role in the war on terror and its elevation by the US to the status of Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) has given its air force much-needed access to American military hardware.

The economic and arms embargo on the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), imposed in October 1990 because of Pakistan's clandestine nuclear programme, hit it very badly because of the non-availability of spares for its fleet of US-made F-16 combat aircraft.

The sanctions also prevented delivery of at least 28 F-16s, which were ready to be supplied to Pakistan, bringing the entire F-16 programme almost to a halt.

It also forced the PAF to look for alternatives such as the Swedish Grippin, the French Mirage-2000-5 and Russian-origin SUKHOI-27 and 30.

But after Pakistan became a key player in the war on terrorism in Afghanistan almost four years ago, it ensured itself economic dividends.

Once convinced of President Pervez Musharraf's endeavours aimed at undercutting terror networks operating in Afghanistan and Pakistan, US President George W. Bush committed a $3 billion economic and military aid package for Pakistan in 2003 and followed it up with the lifting of all nuclear and military sanctions in early 2004.

The MNNA status in 2004 followed soon after making the country eligible for priority delivery of defence material.

"The F-16s always remained the best option for the PAF because we knew France, Russia and Sweden could not sell their aircraft to us for international political considerations," former Pakistani diplomat Akram Zaki said.

But the other factor obstructing the acquisition was the high price of the French Mirage-2000-5.

Pakistan's 1998 nuclear tests had triggered international sanctions that put a heavy financial burden on the Muslim country.

"American sanctions and the inability of countries such as France, Sweden and Russia to sell aircraft to Pakistan came as a precursor to strengthen indigenous capability of rebuilding existing aircraft in our fleet," said a senior air force official, requesting to remain anonymous.

At the moment, the PAF fleet numbers over 400 new and old aircraft of US, Chinese and French origin, which the air force has been able to maintain after receiving Chinese assistance to locally overhaul and rebuild these jets.

Pakistani air force engineers began rebuilding and overhauling its aircraft at the country's premier Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in the early 1980s.

"The PAC serves as the backbone of the country's aerial defence for its invaluable role in giving new lease of life to the whole range of aircraft and radars in the PAFs inventory," said Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, the Pakistani air chief, in a recent Pakistan TV programme.

The PAC is now rebuilding or refurbishing all its combat aircraft, including Chinese-origin A-5s, F-7s and F-7PGs, French-made Mirages as well as F-100 engines of the F-16s. It is also developing facilities to overhaul JF-17 (Thunder) aircraft, set for induction into the air force in December 2006.

As for the new additions to the fleet planned for next two years, some 119 planes including 77 F-16s and six C-130 transport planes from the United States, eight Chinese-made JF-17s and 28 Karakoram-8 trainer jets will become part of the PAF fleet.

Pakistani and Chinese experts have jointly produced both JF-17 and Karakoram-8 planes. Eight JF-17s are to join the PAF fleet by March 2007 followed by commencement of serial production of the planes in Pakistan. Delivery of the K-8 planes is set to commence from the early next year.

The resumption of American spare parts supplies will also enable the PAF to itself upgrade F-16s from next year, Air Vice Marshal Shehzad Hassan, a senior operations department official, told DPA.

Analysts believe the PAF's logistical troubles are now almost over.

"The air force is now well set to survive any difficult situation such as sanctions in future after becoming capable of rebuilding and upgrading its aircraft," a senior defence analyst, retired General Jamshed Ayaz said.

He said with the induction of the JF-17 jets, there will be no shortage of combat aircraft for the air force for the next five years.

"But what we need right now is to achieve a capability of manufacturing spares for F-16s and Mirages in Pakistan, which will prevent grounding of these assets in the future," Ayaz said.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=115123&cat=Asia
=============================

Pakistani and Lockheed officials meet today

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani and Lockheed Martin officials will meet today (Friday) to discuss installing defence equipment in the newly procured F-16 aircraft by Islamabad. A private TV channel reported on Thursday that Lockheed Senior Vice President Robert H Frieker would meet Defence Minister Rao Sikandar Iqbal. Islamabad has formally decided to buy at least 75 F-16s. However, the actual price of the proposed jets will be judged by the installation of the defence equipment. Pakistan hopes to get 25 F-16s by next year. online

Screenshot/Link; http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8485/sch7ty.png

[Diving Falcon]

Several things to be said;

It appears the PAF wants to buy atleast 75 F-16s, both used and new-built. Whats interesting is that the PAF hopes to have 25 F-16s by next year, that further increases the chance that atleast 15 of them would be used, while the others might be brand new.

[walter]

no mention of the variants they plan to aquire. Block 40, 50, 60? I think the US is weary of selling the latest variants due to Pakistans close ties to China and history of already having loaned one F-16 to China.

[Diving Falcon]

Not only that, the latest versions are obviously too much for the PAF to buy, at most the standard production Block-52 or perhaps Block-52+ (CFTs, spine, etc) pending on requirements.

[DPRKUnderground]

Not only that, the latest versions are obviously too much for the PAF to buy, at most the standard production Block-52 or perhaps Block-52+ (CFTs, spine, etc) pending on requirements.

But we're getting these planes for a good price, it won't be the normal $25M fee, it's going to be more like $15M. Plus we're getting the A/Bs for free. Then there's also the question of what weapons Pakistan will get in the deal! But ti's a good buy, less expensive than the Mirage 2000, more capable than the Gripen, and costs less to maintan. You finally joined Sino Defense DF!

[Diving Falcon]

Yea, it took me a while :D

Anyways, the F-16C/D Block-52 would cost the PAF roughly 35-40mn USD a piece, including the infastructure and spare-parts per aircraft, rough estimate. However that may seem a lot, but compared to its French equal, the Mirage 2000-5, which would cost the PAF 75mn USD a piece, I'd say the F-16s are a good buy.

[DPRKUnderground]

Yea, it took me a while :D

Anyways, the F-16C/D Block-52 would cost the PAF roughly 35-40mn USD a piece, including the infastructure and spare-parts per aircraft, rough estimate. However that may seem a lot, but compared to its French equal, the Mirage 2000-5, which would cost the PAF 75mn USD a piece, I'd say the F-16s are a good buy.

I might disagree w/ the price, but i agree w/ the idea!

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Yea, it took me a while :D

Anyways, the F-16C/D Block-52 would cost the PAF roughly 35-40mn USD a piece, including the infastructure and spare-parts per aircraft, rough estimate. However that may seem a lot, but compared to its French equal, the Mirage 2000-5, which would cost the PAF 75mn USD a piece, I'd say the F-16s are a good buy.

They can get JF-17s for about $15 million each.

[Diving Falcon]

Although you have to account that the F-16 has many decades of reliance behind it, as well as superior range and payload. The JF-17's current avionics aren't as good as the F-16 Block-52's. As compared to the Mirage 2000-5, the F-16s are a good buy, especially when aircraft in its league are much more expensive.

Besides, the PAF is getting JF-17s as well, atleast 150 in the committment.

[SABRE]

Several things to be said;

It appears the PAF wants to buy atleast 75 F-16s, both used and new-built. Whats interesting is that the PAF hopes to have 25 F-16s by next year, that further increases the chance that atleast 15 of them would be used, while the others might be brand new.

You are wrong they would all be 1st hand & LH-M Vice President dint say 25 F-16s by next year he said abt 15 F-16s by next year. They are only producing F-16s for Israel at the moment while Polland has yet to sign the deal. Alot of Assembly & Production facility units are free at LH-M. No surprise they can produce that much in a year.

Also there Production facility now involves computerized workings & robot like machine's help. It is said that production with lates production facility can be doubled.

no mention of the variants they plan to aquire. Block 40, 50, 60? I think the US is weary of selling the latest variants due to Pakistans close ties to China and history of already having loaned one F-16 to China.

You are going to slow on reports...if u have missed PAF was offered Block 52 C/D which are the latest verients (exclude Block 60 here). The reason for that is quite simple.

1) PAF wants advance versions

2) LH-M no longer produces Block 10,15,30,32,40. Its production is of Block 52 & 60 now.

Pakistan never gave any F-16 to china....We bought 40 of them with 32 operational now. One shot over Afghanistan in a friendly fire, 2 had minor crashed on the run way & broke off, while five accidently got broken while trying do perform self over hauling. The broken ones were canabalized to help other 32 fly.

I have seen 39 (32 operational & 7 Broken) of them at Sargodah 3 yrs back which means they were always there & now operation or disection on them was done by Chinese. All 39 F-16s were visited by US team after roumers came out on Pak giving China F-16s. They found them all here & reported no F-16 was transfered. There is a pic of the team visiting F-16 at Sargodah, u can get them from www.defencetalk.com .

[FreeAsia2000]

I think this is more an attempt to keep Pakistan tied to America's apron vis a vis spare parts etc than anything else.

America is getting worried that pakistan won't need equipment from them and they're going to lose their clout.

walter...pakistan's relationship with China is based upon friendship between
the people's...pakistan's relationship with america is based upon america's support for one tin-pot military tyrant....

when Chou en-lai visited Pakistan ordinary people turned out in the thousands to cheer him.

please see what happens when americans visit...

[Diving Falcon]

You are wrong they would all be 1st hand & LH-M Vice President dint say 25 F-16s by next year he said abt 15 F-16s by next year. They are only producing F-16s for Israel at the moment while Polland has yet to sign the deal. Alot of Assembly & Production facility units are free at LH-M. No surprise they can produce that much in a year
My mistake. I think the F-16s would be delivered by 2011 at most, assuming we get the 2-3 year default wait, it shouldn't take more than 4-5 years to deliver those F-16s.

[Diving Falcon]

You are wrong they would all be 1st hand & LH-M Vice President dint say 25 F-16s by next year he said abt 15 F-16s by next year. They are only producing F-16s for Israel at the moment while Polland has yet to sign the deal. Alot of Assembly & Production facility units are free at LH-M. No surprise they can produce that much in a year
My mistake.
BTW, when do you think the PAF will be able to recieve all 75 new F-16s.

[SABRE]

My mistake.

No worries :D u r not wrong in some ways LH-M can roll out 20+ F-16s in year for single AirForce & they will for PAF from 2007.



BTW, when do you think the PAF will be able to recieve all 75 new F-16s.

hmmm...cant realy say...as I said LH-M is capable of rolling out 25 F-16s for PAF in a year, but 1st batch is of 15 F-16s due to some busy workings at the facility. From 2007 they will send 20+ F-16s a yr. Now do the maths.

[Diving Falcon]

Sabre

Have you heard about the PAF having revived interests in Qatar's 12 Mirage 2000-5s?

Indeed if that is true, and the PAF manages to buy them with luck, it would probably mean an initial step towards having a full fledged Mirage 2000-5Mk2 fleet.

[MIGleader]

india has mirages as well. what pakistan need is different aircraft to counter indias. the f-16 and fc-17 will work, but they need more. maybe the gripen.

[Diving Falcon]

The Gripen is again like buying Mirage 2000-5, except somewhat cheaper, still not worth it IMO. In the end, I think the advanced version J-10C/D would work for PAF, but the wait would be quite a bit, however the F-16s should keep us well alive until then.

[DPRKUnderground]

The Gripen is again like buying Mirage 2000-5, except somewhat cheaper, still not worth it IMO. In the end, I think the advanced version J-10C/D would work for PAF, but the wait would be quite a bit, however the F-16s should keep us well alive until then.

The J-10 is kind of sketchy, the specs given by the Chinese government are total BS, they said it had supercruise and was stealthy! :confused: . That's retarded! Until Pakistan gets their hands and the public knows most of the specs, then we can start talking about Pakistan getting the J-10.

[SABRE]

Sabre

Have you heard about the PAF having revived interests in Qatar's 12 Mirage 2000-5s?

Indeed if that is true, and the PAF manages to buy them with luck, it would probably mean an initial step towards having a full fledged Mirage 2000-5Mk2 fleet.

Sorry I was away.

Yes PAF is in discussions with Qatar. There are 12 Mirage2000-5s total (10 single seater, 2 twin seater). But even if PAF buys them I dont think they'll increase the number or buy more.

There r 2 possibilities:

1-PAF would like to upgrade them to Mirage-2000D & induct them as nuclear capable bombers

2-Use them as maritime Role as a lead fighters of Mirage-5.

To me 1st seems reasonable. If u need them as maritime fighter than u'll need more of them, while you only need single sqdn for nuke bombings.

The Qatari mirages are very expensive but the The good thing abt buying them is that PAF does not have to worry abt over hauling & maintainance facility. By civilian air rout Qatar is 1 hr flight & UAE is 45 min flight from Karachi. It would only take few mins for Mirages to fly either to UAE or Qatar & use their over hauling & maintainance facility.

The Gripen is again like buying Mirage 2000-5, except somewhat cheaper, still not worth it IMO. In the end, I think the advanced version J-10C/D would work for PAF, but the wait would be quite a bit, however the F-16s should keep us well alive until then.

PAF is not going to buy J-10. China has yet to plan export version but it seems they will 1st induct 250+ J-10 in PLAAF than decide on export plans. PAF doesnt have that much time, besides F-16 C/D Block52+ are considered better & PAF is already looking into JAS-39 Gripens.

[DPRKUnderground]

Sorry I was away.

Yes PAF is in discussions with Qatar. There are 12 Mirage2000-5s total (10 single seater, 2 twin seater). But even if PAF buys them I dont think they'll increase the number or buy more.

There r 2 possibilities:

1-PAF would like to upgrade them to Mirage-2000D & induct them as nuclear capable bombers

2-Use them as maritime Role as a lead fighters of Mirage-5.

To me 1st seems reasonable. If u need them as maritime fighter than u'll need more of them, while you only need single sqdn for nuke bombings.

The Qatari mirages are very expensive but the The good thing abt buying them is that PAF does not have to worry abt over hauling & maintainance facility. By civilian air rout Qatar is 1 hr flight & UAE is 45 min flight from Karachi. It would only take few mins for Mirages to fly either to UAE or Qatar & use their over hauling & maintainance facility.

Pakistan could buy second-hand Mirage-2000s, they'll be cheaper and there's plenty of room for upgrades! France should be retiring plenty of them, maybe Pakistan can get 20 or so second-hand Mirage-2000s.

PAF is not going to buy J-10. China has yet to plan export version but it seems they will 1st induct 250+ J-10 in PLAAF than decide on export plans. PAF doesnt have that much time, besides F-16 C/D Block52+ are considered better & PAF is already looking into JAS-39 Gripens.

Pakistan did send a pilot to test the J-10, they weren't very impressed, they thought the electronics needed a lot of improvement. So what is there besides the J-10 to fill Pakistan's need for another fighter?

[Diving Falcon]

Yep, I think in the next five to six years, France will be retiring a fair number of Mirage 2000s and 2000-5s, the PAF could get them upgraded to Mk2 status. Roughly 20 would be a good number in addition to the 12, we need a fleet of atleast 32-40 to make the most out of these fighters. On the other hand, even with the 12 ex-Qatari ones, the PAF would be able to get new built Mirage 2000-5Mk2s for a relatively lower cost than what is being offered now. Remember the F-16 deal can be used as leverage, while the ex-Qatari planes would allow us to get familiar with the aircraft.

[DPRKUnderground]

Yep, I think in the next five to six years, France will be retiring a fair number of Mirage 2000s and 2000-5s, the PAF could get them upgraded to Mk2 status. Roughly 20 would be a good number in addition to the 12, we need a fleet of atleast 32-40 to make the most out of these fighters. On the other hand, even with the 12 ex-Qatari ones, the PAF would be able to get new built Mirage 2000-5Mk2s for a relatively lower cost than what is being offered now. Remember the F-16 deal can be used as leverage, while the ex-Qatari planes would allow us to get familiar with the aircraft.

Very True! The Mirage-2000s will help replace the A-5s and the rest of the J-7s and Mirage IIIs!

[MIGleader]

pakistan should make money buying some mirages and selling them to china. france wouldn't care. and china would be happy to put some french avionics into the j-10.

[Diving Falcon]

Once the embargo is lifted on China, which I think will be soon, China can get all the Mirage 2000-5s it wants.

[DPRKUnderground]

Once the embargo is lifted on China, which I think will be soon, China can get all the Mirage 2000-5s it wants.

But why would China need them? They already have the Su-30MKK, which is far superior, and they're going to be putting the J-10 into production soon. Anyways, used Mirage 2000s could come at the same price as J-10s, and w/ some upgrades they could be mean lean fighting machines! :D

[tphuang]

But why would China need them? They already have the Su-30MKK, which is far superior, and they're going to be putting the J-10 into production soon. Anyways, used Mirage 2000s could come at the same price as J-10s, and w/ some upgrades they could be mean lean fighting machines! :D
Mirage2K5 >>> su-30mkk. Have you noticed that China doesn't even want su-30mkk anymore?

[Diving Falcon]

Forget used man, China can get like 200+ brand new built Mirage 2000-5Mk2, and getting them in such a bulk would mean getting them rather cheaply! If and once China gets that much, PAF would likely order 40+ Mirage 2000-5Mk2 brand new as well, host a joint order with China, further reducing the price of each aircraft.

[DPRKUnderground]

Mirage2K5 >>> su-30mkk. Have you noticed that China doesn't even want su-30mkk anymore?

They do want the J-10, the Mirage 2000 isn't as good as the F-16, but the J-10 can supposedly match the F-16A/B Block 15!

[MIGleader]

the j-10 is a better match for an f-16c, abit better than pakistans, worse than americas.

you cant compare a mirage with an f-16, since the mirage has the same role as an f-15.

[BrotherofSnake]

The Mirage 2000 is comparable to the F-16. They are both multi-role fighters. The F-15 is an air superiority fighter. :)

[sumdud]

But we're getting these planes for a good price, it won't be the normal $25M fee, it's going to be more like $15M. Plus we're getting the A/Bs for free. Then there's also the question of what weapons Pakistan will get in the deal! But ti's a good buy, less expensive than the Mirage 2000, more capable than the Gripen, and costs less to maintan. You finally joined Sino Defense DF!
:eek: :eek: :eek:
OK, now that's just to dam cheap. 15 mil for a F-16? That makes the FC-1 a bad deal......

But what about the F-16s that Pakistan has already?
Are they being upgraded? They aren't BVR capable.

[adeptitus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4391775.stm
"India's defence ministry has been authorised by the cabinet to buy 12 used French-built Mirage 2000 jet fighters from Qatar."

As for Mirage 2000 vs. <insert aircraft>, I'll just say that the French is far better at "user interface" design than the Russians. For an example compare the cockpit layouts of French aircraft vs. Russian:

French:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/rafale7.html
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mirage/mirage5.html

Russian:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su27/su274.html
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig29/mig294.html

The benefit for Pakistan to purchase French aircraft is that the French are willing to sell a stockpile of spares and munitions, the Americans are not.

Although the capabilities of the Mirage-2000 and F-16 are quite similiar, the Mirage-2000 is more costly because Dassault only made ~500 Mirage-2000 planes, versus Lockheed Martin has made ~4,000 F-16's. More planes = less R&D expense per copy.

Pakistan's F-16 purchase:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16

"Current sale proposal by the USA

Recent discussion with the Indian ministry of defence indicates that the F-16 could be bought by the Indian Air Force. According to Indian media Lockheed Martin has expressed interest in the co-production of F-16s in India but there have been no such reports from US government nor has Lockheed Martin confirmed these reports. India is a big market of Russian fighter jets as IAF flies large numbers of Russian MiG & Sukhoi fighters but recently India has been trying to break away. However, Russia has threatened that if India moves away from the Russian market then Russia will open its military aviation market to India's foe Pakistan. Pakistan is interested in buying Russian Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft. India currently uses Russian MiG-21, MiG-27, and MiG-29 aircraft as well as the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, which has created the imbalance in air power in South Asia.

The USA has also lifted curbs on Pakistan acquiring the latest F-16 block 52/52+ C/D version. Pakistan is also looking into other fighters equal or superior to the F-16 — for example, Sweden's JAS-39 Gripen and France's Rafale.

Pakistan recently reported that it is going to buy 75 late-model F-16s (F-16C/D, Block 50/52) along with some secondhand USAF F-16s & discussions with US on the deal is to go under way very soon. US has already rolled out two secondhand F-16s for PAF which would be delivered in December 2005 after some necessary modifications. These two F-16s will serve as gap fillers for the current fleet as they would be sent for MLU upgrades. PAF is to send two F-16s for MLU on turn bases. After two F-16s are MLUed & delivered, an other two would be commissioned for MLU & the process will continue until 35 operational F-16s of PAF are upgraded. The two secondhand F-16s will remain with PAF permanently & may be joined with other 2nd hand F-16s. The fate of four broken F-16s which were also cannibalized for operational fighters will be decided soon whether Lockheed-Martin is to rebuild them or PAF puts them up as replicas at the head offices in major Pakistani cities.

USA has agreed to give MLU to PAF's current F-16s to the Block 50 standard.

It is believed that PAF is going to maintain 150+ F-16s with advanced avionics & weapons systems which may include AIM-120 AMRAAMs, AIM-9X Sidewinders along with AESA Radars.

Pakistan may also modify its new & old F-16s with some European weapon & avionics system."

[SABRE]

the j-10 is a better match for an f-16c, abit better than pakistans, worse than americas.

you cant compare a mirage with an f-16, since the mirage has the same role as an f-15.

Wrong my friend. J-10 is not better than F-16C/D/E/F. They are way to superior & way too evolved. J-10 is still needs time to fully evolve. It is good compared to PAF F-16s only in Radar & BVR sections. F-16A/B PAF are still very good machinese. They can be P-I-A in WVR & would be even worse after the MLU.

The Mirage 2000 is comparable to the F-16. They are both multi-role fighters. The F-15 is an air superiority fighter. :)

Correct.

Mirage2000 & F-16 are of same league (MultiRoles). F-15 are air superiority just as Su-27 & Su-30.

China has a good air superiority fighters in the form of Su-27 & Su-30MK2,MK3 but the problem is a good sustainable, reliable & proven medium tech multirole fighter which they dont have & dont see J-10 & FC-1 fit the classification at the moment. Therefore their interest is in Mirage2000-5s.

Not only Mirage2000-5 will give them reliable multirole platform they'll also have 1st hand knowledge of Western Avionics (specialy French) which will help CAC to help J-10 evolve may be even FC-1 (excluding PAF J-17 since it would already be installed with mostly French systems).

Currently PLAAF has one MultiRole platform available & thats Russian MiG-29 but PLAAF calls it "Not Good" & CAC says "Worth less machine (for study)". Besides they believe both FC-1 & J-10 can take on MiG-29 on any given day.
So once the EU lifts ban the only good multirole reliable platform available is Mirage2000-5 since they cant get JAS-39 Gripens or F-16 (which is not even European).

[DPRKUnderground]

Pakistan needs a third fighter to go along w/ the F-16s and JF-17s. Rafales look a little too expensive, J-10s are still maturing, Gripens might not be sold b/c the government doesn't want to sell military equipment to "non-peaceful" nations, b/c they are afraid Pakistan might use the Gripen in a conflict w/ India, but now that peace talks have started, there is a good chance, Mirage 2000s seem like a pretty good choice too, but they are expensive, used ones could be aquirred though.

[MIGleader]

i did not say better, i said roughly equal. as for interface, its not just aircraft. you should compare lafeyette command to a sov ciommand. and a leclerc to a t-80. but the later russian planes like the mig-29 m2 and some su-30's have fairly decent cocpits.

[swimmerXC]

Currently PLAAF has one MultiRole platform available & thats Russian MiG-29 but PLAAF calls it "Not Good" & CAC says "Worth less machine (for study)". Besides they believe both FC-1 & J-10 can take on MiG-29 on any given day.
So once the EU lifts ban the only good multirole reliable platform available is Mirage2000-5 since they cant get JAS-39 Gripens or F-16 (which is not even European).

MiG-29... i dont think PLAAF will buy that, maybe if they get a carrier they might get the naval version, buti highly doubt it; since Sukoi also have a naval flanker...
Mirage 2000... they should go for Rafale, or even better just buy all there avonics tech and self engineer them!

[SABRE]

Pakistan needs a third fighter to go along w/ the F-16s and JF-17s. Rafales look a little too expensive, J-10s are still maturing, Gripens might not be sold b/c the government doesn't want to sell military equipment to "non-peaceful" nations, b/c they are afraid Pakistan might use the Gripen in a conflict w/ India, but now that peace talks have started, there is a good chance, Mirage 2000s seem like a pretty good choice too, but they are expensive, used ones could be aquirred though.

PAF has a place for 3rd 4th fighter & as mentioned before that AVM has said new high tech Fighters are availble from Europe & any one would be inducted after practical evaluation. PAF has already dropped Mirage2000-5 from the list since PAF is getting 75 new F-16s, two 2nd hand & MLU of 35 operational f-16s. With 112 F-16s why would u need Mirage2000-5 which is almost similar.

Sweden never denied Pakistan Gripens. The problem was weapon system on which Sweden relied upon US & at that point US was not willing to provide weapons for it aswell as engine for Pakistan. Now they are & PAF is back into talks with Sweden for JAS-39 Gripen & according to many ineternational observers the discussions between PAF & Sweden are going smoothly. Since Rafale are expensive & PAF still finds Mirage2000-9 with Pakistani coustomization a better option than Rafale but is not willing to purchase any Mirages, I conclude that its Gripen that may be inducted even though I find Gripen in the same league as F-16C & also uses almost similar weapons, its just that in addition to US, Gripens also carry French Weapons.

MiG-29... i dont think PLAAF will buy that, maybe if they get a carrier they might get the naval version, buti highly doubt it; since Sukoi also have a naval flanker...
Mirage 2000... they should go for Rafale, or even better just buy all there avonics tech and self engineer them!

What did I say ??? I said that the PLAAF doesnt like it (they said "Not Good") & CAC doesnt like it either [they said "Worthless Machine (to study)"]

China might settle for MiG-29M for its AirCraft Carriers. No other better choice is available & Sukhoi's Carrier Version fighters are canceled. They dint work out. Only two are operation on some Russian AC Carrier & they too are soon to be grounded.

[MIGleader]

russia has not cancelled its sea fighters for export. they just developed the new su-33kub, very capable. migs are oky i guess, but the need to be better than indias.

[DPRKUnderground]

PAF has a place for 3rd 4th fighter & as mentioned before that AVM has said new high tech Fighters are availble from Europe & any one would be inducted after practical evaluation. PAF has already dropped Mirage2000-5 from the list since PAF is getting 75 new F-16s, two 2nd hand & MLU of 35 operational f-16s. With 112 F-16s why would u need Mirage2000-5 which is almost similar.

Sweden never denied Pakistan Gripens. The problem was weapon system on which Sweden relied upon US & at that point US was not willing to provide weapons for it aswell as engine for Pakistan. Now they are & PAF is back into talks with Sweden for JAS-39 Gripen & according to many ineternational observers the discussions between PAF & Sweden are going smoothly. Since Rafale are expensive & PAF still finds Mirage2000-9 with Pakistani coustomization a better option than Rafale but is not willing to purchase any Mirages, I conclude that its Gripen that may be inducted even though I find Gripen in the same league as F-16C & also uses almost similar weapons, its just that in addition to US, Gripens also carry French Weapons.



What did I say ??? I said that the PLAAF doesnt like it (they said "Not Good") & CAC doesnt like it either [they said "Worthless Machine (to study)"]

China might settle for MiG-29M for its AirCraft Carriers. No other better choice is available & Sukhoi's Carrier Version fighters are canceled. They dint work out. Only two are operation on some Russian AC Carrier & they too are soon to be grounded.

The Gripen would be good, but isn't their another fighter they can go for? You may think I'm being stupid, but what about the F-18?

[tphuang]

Wrong my friend. J-10 is not better than F-16C/D/E/F. They are way to superior & way too evolved. J-10 is still needs time to fully evolve. It is good compared to PAF F-16s only in Radar & BVR sections. F-16A/B PAF are still very good machinese. They can be P-I-A in WVR & would be even worse after the MLU.

you underrate J-10 way too much. Things that J-10 beats PAF F-16 A/B in:
1. avionics
2. AAM
3. engine
4. maneouverability
Things that PAF F-16A/B beats J-10
can't think of any.

As compared to F-16C/D, J-10 should be at least in the block 30 level, which is the first time that F-16 got equipped with AMRAAM and the upgraded engine.

Mirage2000 & F-16 are of same league (MultiRoles). F-15 are air superiority just as Su-27 & Su-30.

China has a good air superiority fighters in the form of Su-27 & Su-30MK2,MK3 but the problem is a good sustainable, reliable & proven medium tech multirole fighter which they dont have & dont see J-10 & FC-1 fit the classification at the moment. Therefore their interest is in Mirage2000-5s.

Do you even know what the point of having su-30mkk is? They are used mainly as ground and naval attackers in plaaf and plan. J-10 is the best A2A combat plane in PLAAF service right now. Check the J-10 thread in the aviation forum.


Not only Mirage2000-5 will give them reliable multirole platform they'll also have 1st hand knowledge of Western Avionics (specialy French) which will help CAC to help J-10 evolve may be even FC-1 (excluding PAF J-17 since it would already be installed with mostly French systems).

Currently PLAAF has one MultiRole platform available & thats Russian MiG-29 but PLAAF calls it "Not Good" & CAC says "Worth less machine (for study)". Besides they believe both FC-1 & J-10 can take on MiG-29 on any given day.
So once the EU lifts ban the only good multirole reliable platform available is Mirage2000-5 since they cant get JAS-39 Gripens or F-16 (which is not even European).
That's how the lifting of embargo will help PLAAF, China needs to learn the French radars.

[MIGleader]

china can learn french radars now, its not something the embargo will block. its illegal, but no one will care over a radar sale or liscence, especially not france.

[tphuang]

china can learn french radars now, its not something the embargo will block. its illegal, but no one will care over a radar sale or liscence, especially not france.
a poster from CDF said that the people at Nanjing development center (basically 611 I think) are pro-western (I'm guessing that means pro-French). And it sounded like we are getting help from foreign companies in the radar development. Then again, it'd be nice if we can buy the radar used on mirage 2k5.

[DPRKUnderground]

you underrate J-10 way too much. Things that J-10 beats PAF F-16 A/B in:
1. avionics
2. AAM
3. engine
4. maneouverability
Things that PAF F-16A/B beats J-10
can't think of any.

As compared to F-16C/D, J-10 should be at least in the block 30 level, which is the first time that F-16 got equipped with AMRAAM and the upgraded engine.

Do you even know what the point of having su-30mkk is? They are used mainly as ground and naval attackers in plaaf and plan. J-10 is the best A2A combat plane in PLAAF service right now. Check the J-10 thread in the aviation forum.


That's how the lifting of embargo will help PLAAF, China needs to learn the French radars.

I disagree, even though the J-10 will be fitted w/ the newest radar in Chinese development, Pakistan has upgraded their F-16s w/ the ATLAS pod and a new radar-the APG-66, which brings it close to the MLU. All the PAF needs are BVR missiles for its F-16s and they're set. Also, the MLU can be compared to the Block 40, Pakistan has brought it's F-16s to the level of the Block 30.

[tphuang]

I disagree, even though the J-10 will be fitted w/ the newest radar in Chinese development, Pakistan has upgraded their F-16s w/ the ATLAS pod and a new radar-the APG-66, which brings it close to the MLU. All the PAF needs are BVR missiles for its F-16s and they're set. Also, the MLU can be compared to the Block 40, Pakistan has brought it's F-16s to the level of the Block 30.
He was comparing J-10 to the original F-16s before the MLU. At least that's what I got out of what he said. As for MLU, it's electronics may have improved, but its frame is still the first generation frame. As you might know, there was a huge change at block 25 and then an engine change at block 30.

For MLU, it still uses the old engine (that means it's maneouverability probably didn't improve or marginally improved).

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html

let's look at its improvement in Avionics/Cockpit,
radar - APG-66(v2), I'm sorry, this is still not APG-68. It can track 10 targets. Even the moderate estimates of KLJ-3 has that. If you believe what Richard Fisher says, KLJ-3 has 150 KM search range with ability to track 16-20 targets and engage 4-8 targets. It still is a pulse doppler radar. KLJ-3 is probably at that stage or slotted array, since Zhemchug is PD.
MFD - J-10 has 3 of them.
HMS - J-10 has it
HUD - J-10 has it, although I'm not sure about the performance comparisons. Maybe the F-16 has a wider angled one.
audio/video recorder - never mentionned with J-10, so I'm guessing no

As for other improvements, it looks like there is quite a bit of improvement in GPS, digital terrain system and such. It looks like a lot of improvement in F-16's multirole capabilities. Since they are using modern systems, I think these MLUs should have better multirole capabilities than J-10 in terms of precision strikes and such.

However, I doubt these things actually help in A2A combat. Let's look at the important elements in air combat:
1. AAM - PAF still has no AMRAAM to equip the MLUs
2. radar - better, but stil APG-66, not to the standard of APG-68
3. maneouverability - engine still stinks and the air frame hasn't changed, so no substantial improvement there either.
4. RCS - probably no substantial change.

[tphuang]

after some googling, it appears KLJ-3 is either a slotted array, phase array radar or a planar array radar. According to Richard Fisher, KLJ-3 is a planar array radar. On a side note, APG-68 is also a planar array radar.

Now, if I only know the exact different between these types of radars. lol

[SABRE]

He was comparing J-10 to the original F-16s before the MLU.

I wasnt comparing the fighters before MLU. MLU still has not taken place. Only few upgrades such as self Radar upgrade.

[adeptitus]

after some googling, it appears KLJ-3 is either a slotted array, phase array radar or a planar array radar. According to Richard Fisher, KLJ-3 is a planar array radar. On a side note, APG-68 is also a planar array radar.
Now, if I only know the exact different between these types of radars. lol

Don't faint over the math :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phased_array
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slotted_waveguide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planar_array

http://kuku.sawf.org/Emerging+Technologies/2667.aspx