China's transport plane capacities

[Totoro]

If/when the advertised purchase of 30 il76 goes through it will greatly increase china's airlift abilities. With those new aircraft china's combined airlift capacities of its il76 fleet, y-8 fleet, y-7 fleet and some calculated 250 units of its y-5 fleet would rise to 3570 tons of cargo or 16800 equipped troops in one run. That's calculated for under 1000 km range, as i don't see the need for longer runs in taiwan scenario. Of course i'm not saying that a force of several hundred of transport planes can operate at the same time on an area size of taiwan, for example. I'm just talking about potential.

I used the figure of 14 previously purchased il76, minus one that is reffited for AEW. 43 Il76s would give 2020 tons of cargo lift or 8170 equipped troops. If china has more previously bought IL76 (i found a figure of up to 20) of course the airlift potential would be even greater.

48 y-8 fleet can carry 960 tons of cargo or some 4600 equipped troops. However, i don't know what number of these planes is used for roles other than transport.

80 y-7 can carry 440 tons of cargo or some 2000 equipped troops. Finally, figures for y-5 were extremely hard to find, some going into over 400 range. But given how it's an old airplane i went with a conservative 250 fleet assumption. such a number would give ability to lift 250 tons or 2000 equipped troops.

All these airplanes can load/unload their cargo on their own, without any access ramps or additional airport equipment. There is also a number of commercial airliners in PLAF's service, combined able to ferry at least additional 2000 troops at once. These, of course, need conventional runways and must have stairways and ramps to get the troops/cargo on and off the planes.

Finally, does anyone have data for cargo hold specs on the il76md? i know weight wise it could haul one tank based on t72/t80 design but is the cargo hold wide enough?

[bd popeye]

That's interesting. When the purchase of the 30 il76 goes through that will be a big boost to the PLAAF. Could you post a link about the purchase of the new aircraft? Thanks

Personally I think the PLAAF needs to improve it's in air re-fueling capablity. I read in the old forum that the re-fueling probes are not compatiable with all their aircraft. Any more info on that?

[tphuang]

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050908/41340071.html

This site is normally quite good. It says china got 40 IL-76 and IL-78 for $1 billion. The commonly speculated breakdown is 30 IL-76 and 10 IL-78. Add that to the 10 to 20 IL-76 China already has, the transport and aerial refueling capability has definitely been greatly enhanced.

[Chairman Hu]

50 Il-76 and 20-Il-78..

All China needs is those bigger An-124?? An-250?? (like 10-20 of them to provide bigger and badder units) and China will be in VERY good shape

Just 1 problem... Does China have a license to built them or is China working on a new version to replace the old ones?

[tphuang]

the ones delivered to china will be new ones, but I'm not sure if China is getting the latest MF variant. Does anyone know what the price on the IL-76MD planes are?

[Fairthought]

They are Purchasing 38 planes (most Il-76 tranports, some Il-78 refuelers, I don't know the exact mix) for a total purchase price of $1.5 billion.

If we treated the Il-76 and Il-78 has similarly priced, that comes out to $40 million per plane.

The Il-76MF is the newest version and has similar load capablilities to the C-17 Globemaster of America. They are both capable of utilizing shorter runways than the giant cargo planes like the Antonov's or the C-5 Galaxy. As far as I know the C-17 is still superior in regards to the fact that it has truly global range (hence the name Globemaster). This is because it is capable of in-flight refueling. The Il-76MF is still not capable of in-flight refueling.

Btw, the C-17 also costs $340 million per plane and has been sharply criticized by the General Accounting Office as a wasteful Pork program. I think the plane is needed, but that price tag is unjustified.

Four Il-76MF's are already under construction for Russian clients. It is doubtful that these planes were displayed in the recent joint military maneuvers, but there is a good chance it is this model that will be produced in the factory since the order is for brand new planes.

The refueling plane is comparable to America's KC-10 Extender. Forget about the Stratotanker (dated 1965), its limited range does not put it in the same league. The KC-10 costs $100 million apiece.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

These, of course, need conventional runways and must have stairways and ramps to get the troops/cargo on and off the planes.

Are you telling me soldiers will not be able to board/leave planes without ramps? Why can't they can either jump or climb up on a rope!?!

[walter]

Btw, the C-141 also costs $340 million per plane and has been sharply criticized by the General Accounting Office as a wasteful Pork program. I think the plane is needed, but that price tag is unjustified.


C-141 is no longer in production and is in fact being retired from service. Maybe you are refering to the C-17 GlobemasterIII? But $340 mil. still sounds steep to me.

[Fairthought]

Thank you Walter,

I am mistaken. The price tag is for the C-17. The C-141 has not been in production in over ten years and the last one is set to retire in 2006. Yes, I meant to say the C-17 globemaster. Terribly sorry about the mix up. The C-141 is not capable of the inflight refueling, the C-17 is.

[walter]

I did not realize the price tag ($340 mil.) was so high on the C-17--that sure is a lot of pork! :eek:
At that price i would almost prefer the US also buying the Il-76MF for $40 million a copy. :rolleyes:

[Fairthought]

Speaking economically, it would be better to just buy Il-76 cargo planes. But military industry is a strategic asset and I support any country's decision to subsidize their military corporations -capitalism and free trade be damned.

The price tag comes from GAO, and referred to the initial order of C-17's. Subsequent orders has seen the price of the C-17 come down to $202.3 ('98 dollars). That's equal to $234.4 million in today's dollars.

[Totoro]

Are you telling me soldiers will not be able to board/leave planes without ramps? Why can't they can either jump or climb up on a rope!?!

Well, sure, that'd be possible, to climb up a rope for example, but how practical is that? How long would it need to embark/disembark a full load of soldiers that way? Bigger problem there is that a boeing 737, one of the type of planes in question, is a commercial airliner with landing gear not suited for unconvential runways. I see commercial airliners being used once an airfield has been secured enough for them to come in, land, take an hour or whatever to disembark and then lift off.

[MIGleader]

the ukriainian an-124 is a viable solution, but china may need to expand her airfeilds a bit to support it. just buy a few and test it, then make your own transport.

[muyang523]

Moscow Times
September 9, 2005
Pg. 5

China To Buy Russian Jets For $1.5Bln

By Associated Press

Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Thursday that Russia would deliver long-range transport jets and tanker refueling planes to China, Russian news agencies reported.

Ivanov announced the deal after meeting in the Black Sea resort of Sochi with his Chinese counterpart, Cao Gangchuan, Interfax reported, but no details were given.

Vedomosti reported that the deal, involving 38 Il-76 transport planes and Il-78 tankers, was worth $1.5 billion.

Earlier, Cao met with President Vladimir Putin and other top members of the Russian government.

Observers say the drills also gave Russia the chance to show off military equipment, since China has become the biggest foreign buyer of Russian arms and equipment in recent years.

Since the Soviet collapse, Moscow has built strong ties with Beijing, with both countries having a common goal to counter what they see as U.S. threats to their strategic and economic interests.

[MIGleader]

so the deal is through? now china will have some true projection abilities.

[walter]

yeah, this deal will fill a much needed gap in China's overall force structure. 40 modern medium lift military planes can do a lot. Wonder when China will develop their own modern military transport?

[Totoro]

yeah, this deal will fill a much needed gap in China's overall force structure. 40 modern medium lift military planes can do a lot. Wonder when China will develop their own modern military transport?

Well, this purchase is actually suggesting it won't be developing their own transport of this class until il76s are facing retirement. This transport fleet should last decades. With almost 50 tons it's pretty much as heavy of a transport plane as china will ever need. Even US is concentrated more on c17 than c5, there's just not that big of an advantage a 100ton pus transport gives over a 50-70 ton one.

For developing its own plane, they need to be sure theres a need for a large enough quantity to justify the development. So, IF there's gonna be a domestically made transport, i see a smaller plane to replace the y-8 as a possibility. Even that not before 2015 or so.

[MIGleader]

china will be using the il-76's for a while. the y-8 will just never be as capable.

the aquisition of the il-78 tankers means they can finally refuel their sukois for loger range missions.

[Chairman Hu]

But the question is... How well can the Ilyushin-76/78 last and how well when it comes to a time of crisis

[MIGleader]

are you questionning he reliabiliuty of the planes? they will perform fine as long as china can operate them effectively.

[Chairman Hu]

not reliablity, thats like questioning Chinese leader's intellegence

I'm questioning will it get jobs done in a crisis if China has to push to like 150%

[MIGleader]

it may. i doubt the pla would actually through its transports into the midle of a huge fire fight. they need to be used covertly or drop reinforcements.

[rommel]

i got the exact number of il-76 and 78 that the PLAAF just bought, it's 30 IL-76 and 8 IL-78

Source: Jane's Weekly Defence

[tphuang]

i got the exact number of il-76 and 78 that the PLAAF just bought, it's 30 IL-76 and 8 IL-78

Source: Jane's Weekly Defence
Apparently, there are other conditions that came as part of the contract.

They included engines for these transports/tankers (obviously), also co-development of AL-41 and a few other projects that China can join development with Russia.

[Chairman Hu]

isnt the AL-41 the engine powering the S-37!??!

GIMME THE LINK!

[MIGleader]

so an al-41 is a tvc version of an improved al-31? that means china is having an interest in tvc for their fighters. it might be part of an upgrade plan for their flnkers, to put them on par with the mki and mkm.

[Chairman Hu]

YES! FINALLY! INDIA WILL NO LONGER HAVE THE UPPER HAND IN THIS AREA!

btw, what if transport planes had tvcs?

[MadMax]

the only advantage might be shorter takeoff so whats the point when you could just strap on some rato gear

[Chairman Hu]

lol, it was just for the fun of it...

BTW, now for serious, I heard something about a Y-10 project of the past, how well if that thingy to the ilyushin planes China have now?

[MIGleader]

if a transport had tvcs, i would want to be in it because id get tossed and turned around. i dont know of a y-10, but there is the y-8x, comprable to c-130.

[Chairman Hu]

LOL sweet!

Y-8X??? Gimme a link for that

Similar to the C-130?!!??! NICE!

[tphuang]

if a transport had tvcs, i would want to be in it because id get tossed and turned around. i dont know of a y-10, but there is the y-8x, comprable to c-130.
what Y-8x? do you have any source for this?

[MIGleader]

the only info on it i know of is from the sinoodefence y-8 transport page and some other members posts in the old forum. not to much info on it has been realeased.

[tphuang]

well, we just saw the unveiling of y-9 today.

[MIGleader]

y-9? elaborat please.

[Dongfeng]

y-9? elaborat please.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airlift/y9.asp

[swimmerXC]

i have a nice pic of it in the pic thread...

[MIGleader]

any mock ups or pre production models yet? this development seems to coincide nicely with the purchase of the il-76's.

[Chairman Hu]

VEry

The Y-9 is a solution of the transport problem, we can built them as much as we want to, plus itz capabilities are comparable to the C-130

It can carry at least 10 tons right?

[tphuang]

empty weight is 35 tonne and max is 65 tonne. I'm sure there are other factors too.

[Totoro]

VEry

The Y-9 is a solution of the transport problem, we can built them as much as we want to, plus itz capabilities are comparable to the C-130

It can carry at least 10 tons right?

It does seem to me china is on the right track with y-9s, if they're to be mainstay airlift plane for any potential taiwan invasion. Actually it can carry 20 tons at 1000 km ferry range, which is enough for taiwan scenario. and that's enough for various IFVs, lil under 100 equipped troops, all deployable on unprepared runways with fast load/unload times. Since it does seem to be 100% chinese made there's little reason why PLAAF couldn't double its medium transport fleet in the coming years/decade.

[Chairman Hu]

20 TONS?!?!? YAY!!!

Awesome, China can double it too, how much is China going to built?

[MIGleader]

not how many, but when is the first plane going to be built?

[Chairman Hu]

this year if there is a mircale

maybe 2007-08 ish, maybe as late as 2010?

agreed?

[sumdud]

China way needs more transports.
Too bad China has no turbofan engines.(Where the heck did those Y-10/707 feedback go?)
14 il-76 and 48 Y-8 are waaaaay not enough.
The Y-5 should go when possible.(It might be stealthy and mightbe able to float, but it's totally incapable.)
China getting more il-76s is definitely a good thing.

BTW, the Y-8X/Y-9 carries 30 tonnes, not just 20(That's the old Cubs) at a range of 2500km!
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/Il-76_Y-8X_H-6U.htm

[rommel]

well, China maybe should buy those Airbus (I don't know the name, the one that look awful and that is a cargo) for it's transport fleet. Will give China a heavy lifting capability for a time until the local industry could elaborate a follower.

[tphuang]

well, it is supposedly part of the new airbus project now.

[rommel]

well, I mean, the Airbus A300-600ST Beluga, not the 400M

[sumdud]

Eh...
What happened to the 2 Y-10 China made?
Where's the blueprints, the engines?

[ZIVOJIN]

Is there any Il-18 and Y-11/12 in PLA service?

[MIGleader]

Is there any Il-18 and Y-11/12 in PLA service?

china's light transports:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airlift/y7.asp
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airlift/y5.asp

[walter]

well, I mean, the Airbus A300-600ST Beluga, not the 400M

the beluga is for outsized cargo, like airplane fuselage sections. It does not carry exceptionally more weight than a normal cargo plane.

besides that, as long as the arms embargo stands military transports fall within that category. I am sure Airbus, and for that matter boeing or LM, would love to sell dozens of military cargo planes to china none the less. $$$ €€€

[sumdud]

Is there any Il-18 and Y-11/12 in PLA service?
iL-18s have been out. The Y-11?
The Y-12 exists, but I've never seen it in Chinese service. (It's a STOL prop plane.)

[tphuang]

another article on China's possible huge transport
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/jzwq/02/11028430/20051118/12862802.html

中国引进大型运输机的影响

台风

据外电报道，中国有关方面正与乌克兰安东诺夫航空科技联合体磋商，拟购买该公司生产的安-124或安-225大型运输机，此外中国航空工业第二集团公司还与安东诺夫就合作开发安-124-300型大型运输机的可能性进行了初步探讨。安-225和安-124系列运输机是目前世界上载重量数一数二的战略运输机，既能用于军事领域，也可用于民用领域，具有强大 的运载能力。国内目前尚没有类似的大型运输机，如果能引进这两种飞机及其技术，无疑将增强中国航空工业的实 力，提高中国军用及民用航空运输能力。

战争离不开军用运输机

军用运输机系指用于运送军事人员、武器装备和其他军用物资的飞机，具有较大的载重量和续航能力，能执行空运 、空降和空投任务，保障地面部队从空中实施快速机动。根据运输能力和使用范围的不同，运输机通常分为战略运 输机和战术运输机两大类。

战略运输机主要用于远距离（美国的战略运输机通常用于全球范围内的运输任务）运载大量人员和各种重型装备， 在大范围内实施快速机动。这类运输机的主要特点是载重能力强、航程远，起飞重量一般在150吨以上，载重量 超过40吨，正常装载航程超过4000千米，能空降、空投和快速装卸，适于在远离战区的大中型机场起降，必 要时也可在野战机场起降。美国的C-5“银河”、C-17“环球霸王”，俄罗斯的安-124、安-225、伊尔-76等都属这类飞机。

战术运输机主要在前线战区从事近距离军事调动、后勤补给、空降伞兵、空投军用物资和运送伤员。这类运输机的 特点是载重量较小（20吨左右），起飞重量60到 80吨，可运送100多名士兵，航程3000到4000千米，适于在前线中小型机场起降，有较好的短距起降 能力。美国的C-130“大力神”、乌克兰的安 -12以及我国的运-8等均属这类飞机。

美国于二战期间建立了战略空运部队，并在战争中发挥了巨大作用。如在我们所熟知的“驼峰空运”行动中（19 42年5月到1945年9月），中、美双方共空运各种物资72.5万吨，人员33477名，最大月空运量达 到35000多吨，远远超过滇缅公路每月4000吨的运输水平，极大地支持了我国的抗日战争。苏联在战后也 建立起自己的战略空运部队。苏军在1968年入侵捷克时最先进行机动的是空降部队，并在短时间内控制捷克的 全部要地；空运部队为先头部队源源不断地运来了大量的增援部队和武器装备，奠定了苏军在短时间内占领捷克全 境的基础。1973年第四次中东战争期间，支持阿拉伯一方的苏联动用了战略空军，紧急向埃及空 运了大量的T-55和T-62坦克、米格-21战斗机、“萨姆”防空导弹及大量的军用物资，以补充高强度战争所造成的物资消耗。而苏军入侵阿富汗的战 争虽然失败，但其运输机的表现却相当不错。

现代战争对空运的依赖性更大。由于现代战争具有突发性强、作战节奏快、作战强度大、物资消耗大、时效性要求 高等特点，因此需要各军兵种全面协同，将各种先进武器装备迅速部署到位。从某种意义上讲，现代战争就是在打 后勤保障能力的仗。以大型军用运输机为主体的空中运输可快速、灵活和有效地保障作战人员和物资的供应，能快 速远距离提供机动能力，从而成为部队战略开进和快速部署的重要支柱，是战争物资和武器装备后勤供应的关键手 段，因此军用航空运输力量已成为决定战争胜负的重要因素之一。

在海湾战争、科索沃战争、阿富汗反恐战争和伊拉克战争中，军用运输机的作用都表现得淋漓尽致。在这些战争中 ，以大型军用运输机为主的支援保障飞机首当其冲，动用规模接近主战飞机，在整个作战过程和体系对抗中地位十 分显著，充分体现了大型军用运输机在快速、机动和大纵深作战中的重要作用。可以说，大规模运用军用运输机直 接提高了整个部队的机动和快速反应能力，加强了对战争进程的控制能力，增强了部队持续作战的能力。如在20 03年的伊拉克战争中，当土耳其拒绝美军使用其空军基地时，美军15架C-17从意大利起飞，用时9小时，将近千名伞兵组成的第173空降旅空运到伊拉克北部，开辟了北方战线。相比 之下，采用海运方式将在土耳其的美军绕道苏伊士运河运到伊拉克南部时，仗已经打完了。

俄罗斯空军的大型运输机与美军的相比也不逊色。在1999年科索沃维和行动中，俄罗斯空军出动 6架伊尔-76中型运输机，先将1000名士兵和物资运送到科索沃境内，然后空降200多名伞兵，以迅雷不及掩耳之势 抢占了普里什蒂纳机场，赢得了俄罗斯同北约讨价还价的重要筹码。

我国的空运能力现状

除美、俄传统军事强国外，其他国家也都十分重视军事空运能力的发展，纷纷着手建立本国的空运部队。英国从美 国引进了C-130和C-17大型运输机；印度购买了伊尔-76运输机；日本引进了C-130运输机。在2004年出兵伊拉克行动中，日本还租借俄罗斯空军的安-124大型运输机向伊运送兵员和装备。 2004年6月，除美、英两国之外的15个北约成员国签订了“战略空运过渡方案”谅解备忘录，授权各签字国 使用乌克兰的安-124-100战略运输机支援盟国或欧盟部队。那么我国的情况怎样呢？

由于运输机不直接参加作战，过去我国对运输机的重视程度一直低于战斗机、攻击机和轰炸机等作战机种，不但对 运输机研制的投入远远不足，而且运输机的装备数量也非常有限。解放军在90年代以前使用的运输机包括国产的 运-7、运-8和从前苏联引进的少量安-24等。运-7源自前苏联的安-24，载重约5.5吨；运-8源自安-12，载重约20吨。用现在的技术水平来衡量，这两种机型的载重量、航程都不能满足快速空投和部队机动的需 要。因此，我国从90年代起从俄罗斯引进了伊尔-76中型运输机。目前，解放军空运部队主要由伊尔-76中型运输机、国产运- 8和运-12中小型运输机构成，尽管空运能力较以往有了明显增强，但尚无与其它大国空军媲美的战略空运部队，存在现 役运输机数量不足、运载量较小、作战航程有限等不足。

伊尔-76中型运输机由前苏联伊留申设计局（已改制为莫斯科的伊留申航空股份公司联合体和乌兹别克斯坦塔什干市的 塔什干飞机生产企业）设计，北约代号“耿直”。伊尔-76机长46.59米，机高14.76米，翼展 50.5米，机翼面积 300平方米，空重70吨，最大起飞重量170吨，最大燃油重量 70吨，最大平飞速度 850千米/小时，巡航速度 760～780千米/小时（9000米～12000米高度），巡航高度 9000～12000米，升限 20695米，起飞滑跑距离 1600米，着陆滑跑距离 780～1000米，最大载重航程 5000千米。动力装置为4台索洛维耶夫设计局生产的配备有反推力装置的D-301M型涡扇发动机，分别吊装在机体两侧内翼之下，单台推力117.6千牛。

伊尔-76飞机共有7名机组人员，其中驾驶舱内正、副驾驶员并排坐在前面，领航员在机头下面的玻璃机头罩内，两名 货物装卸员坐在驾驶舱后部。货舱尺寸（长×宽×高）为20米×3.46米×3.4 米，可运载150名全副武装的士兵或120名伞兵，也可装运各种军用车辆或设备。货舱后部有蚌壳式舱门和货 桥，带有装卸导轨，导轨宽度可调。机舱内设有2 台电动起重机和2台绞车以方便装卸，每台起重机可起重5000千克，每台绞车的牵引拉力为3000千克。为 适应粗糙的前线机场跑道，伊尔-76采用了低压起落架系统以及能在起降阶段低速飞行时提供更大升力的前后襟翼。该型机可作为作战支援运输飞 机，用于运送步兵和轻装甲部队，能在简单的前线机场起降；也可执行伞降任务，可空投货物或经妥善包装的军用 车辆；还具有改装成飞行医院的能力。

国产运-8是陕西飞机制造公司在前苏联安-12基础上开发的四发涡轮螺旋桨中程多用途运输机。1969年开始设计，1974年12月25日01号机首 次试飞成功，1980年1月国家批准设计定型后转入小批量生产，至今已发展出多个型号。该型机翼展38米， 机翼面积121.86平方米，机长34.02米，机高11.6米，展弦比11.85，空重35.5吨，最大 起飞重量61吨，最大载油量23吨，最大有效载重量20吨，最大平飞速度662千米/小时，升限10400米，航程5620千米，货舱尺寸（长×宽×高）为13.5米×3.5米×2.6米。动 力系统为4台WJ6型涡轮螺旋桨发动机，配用J17-G13自动顺桨自动变距螺旋桨，单台最大功率3120千瓦。机组人员6名，分别是正副驾驶员、领航员、通信 员、空中机械师和尾炮射击员。机身整个前段为密封舱，中段为货舱。驾驶舱后的气密段座舱可乘坐14名随机人 员。货舱为非气密舱，有加温和低空通风设备，可运送96名全副武装的士兵或82名伞兵，或60副担架重伤员 和23名轻伤员加3名医护人员；货运时可装载2 辆卡车或20吨货物。货舱内装有多种装卸工具，包括2台电动绞车，单台拉力15吨，可将大型货物拖入货舱； 中小型货物可用机上2.3吨的梁式吊车随意搬动，解放牌卡车可由随机货桥直驶货舱。运-8运输机具有空投、空降、空运、救生及海上作业等多种用途，可空投1、2、4及6米规格的空投平台，空投单 件最大重量7.4吨。

国产运-12是哈尔滨飞机制造公司（原哈尔滨飞机厂）在运-11基础上进行改进发展而来的轻型双发多用途运输机，1980年初开始设计，1985年取得了中国民航局颁 发的第一个民用飞机型号合格证，翌年又取得该局颁发的第一个生产许可证。该型机采用双发、上单翼、单垂尾、 固定式前三点起落架的总体布局，翼展17.24米，机翼面积34.27平方米，机长14.86米，机高5. 58米，展弦比8.67，空重3吨，起飞重量 5吨，最大载油量1.23吨，最大载重1.7吨，客货舱容积 12.9立方米，最大平飞速度328千米/小时，巡航速度292千米/小时，实用升限7000米，航程1340千米。与伊尔-76和运-8比较，运-12 的空运能力相当有限。

引进大型运输机及其作用

在战争中向较远地区运送物资，空运是最好的方式；向某些特殊地方运送物资，空运是唯一的方式；向任何地点运 送物资，空运都是最快的方式。军用运输机可执行运送兵员、作战装备及其他军用物资、撤离伤病员和进行空降空 投等任务。现代军用运输机的巡航速度一般可达800～900千米/小时，是陆上运输速度的15 倍，海上运输速度的25倍，是这三种运输手段中最快捷的。而且现代大型运输机的航程已达数千甚至上万千米， 可覆盖辽阔的疆土，经空中加油后还可实施全球性运输，所以军用运输机尤其是大型军用运输机的装备数量、技术 水平和运载效能已成为衡量一个国家国防实力的重要标志。

我国在研制运-8、运 -12等中小型运输机的同时，从俄罗斯引进了伊尔-76中型运输机，并且也开始与乌克兰安东诺夫航空科技联合体磋商，拟购买或联合开发大型运输机。在 2003年9月第10届北京国际航空展上，中国航空工业第二集团公司与乌克兰安东诺夫航空科技联合体联合召 开了新闻发布会，披露了双方正在就运- 8F600、运-8X、安-70等型号的运输机项目合作进行深入的探讨，并且就双方合作研制安-124-300型运输机进行了讨论。近期，外电又传我国欲从乌克兰引进安-124或安-225大型运输机。

那么，如果引进这些大型运输机，将对我国产生什么影响呢？首先我们从上述两种运输机的作战性能 谈起。

安- 124绰号“鲁斯兰”，取自俄罗斯民间故事中一个英雄的名字，是前苏联安东诺夫设计局（现乌克兰安东诺夫航 空科学技术联合体）研制的四发远程重型运输机，起飞总重超过美国C-5A重型运输机。1982年12月26日第1架原型机首飞，1986年第5架原型机参加了英国范堡罗航展， 1986年1月首次交付使用，1987年投入批生产。

该型机翼展73.3米，机长69.1米，机高21.08米，机翼面积 628平方米，空重175吨，最大燃油重量230吨，最大起飞重量405吨，最大巡航速度865千米/小时，正常巡航速度800～850千米/小时（高度 10000～12000米），进场速度230～260千米/小时，起飞滑跑距离2520米，着陆滑跑距离（最大着陆重量时）900米，最大燃油航程 16500千米。

安-124运输机的动力系统为4台扎波罗什 “进步”机器制造设计局研制的D-18T型具有反推力装置的涡扇发动机。其货舱分为上下两层，其中上层舱室较狭小，6名机组人员和1名货物装 卸员的座位均在此，还可载88名乘客；下层主货舱的尺寸（长×宽×高）为36米×6.4米×4.4米，容积 1013.76立方米，载重可达150吨。这一运载能力是美国C-17运输机的2倍，C-5运输机的1.25倍，安-22运输机的1.875倍。货舱前后舱门采用液压装置开闭，可分别在7分钟和3分钟内打开。货舱顶部装有2 台起重能力为10吨的吊车，地板上还另外有2部牵引力为3吨的绞盘车，用于货物装卸。

安-124运输机的运载能力已经很惊人，而安-225运输机则更胜一筹。安-225是目前世界上最大的运输机，在安-124基础上发展而来，绰号“梦幻”。1985年中期开始设计，1988年 12月21日原型机首次试飞，1989年5月13日进行背带“暴风雪”号航天飞机的飞行。该型机翼展88. 4米，机长 84米，机高 18.2米，机翼面积 905平方米，总重达到600吨，巡航速度800～850千米/小时，起飞跑道长3500米，最大燃油时的航程为15400千米。货舱比安-124加长了 7米，尺寸（长×宽×高）为43米×6.4米×4.4米，内部容积为1210.88立方米。动力系统采用6 台扎波罗什“进步”机器制造设计局的D-18T 型涡扇发动机，单台推力为229.5千牛，机组包括6名空勤人员，分别是正副驾驶员、2名飞行工程师、1名 领航员和1名通讯员。安-225不仅保持体积最大运输机的世界记录，运载能力也是世界上最大的，总运载量可达250吨。

无论是安-124还是更大的安-225运输机，其优势不仅在于它们的运载量大，而且还在于它们都可以运送超大、超长或超重的装备，这是我国 现役伊尔-76或运-8、运-12运输机所不具备的能力。如安-124运输机可运载重型主战坦克、大型车辆、弹道导弹、桥梁等大型军用设备。安-124运输机能够运送的，安-225运输机均可以运送，而且其货舱内可装16个集装箱，可运载大型航空航天器部件，天然气及石油勘探、采 矿、能源等行业的大型成套设备和部件。从民用角度上讲，这种飞机的作用不言而喻，运送大型设备无须求人；从 军事方面讲，目前美国、俄罗斯等军事大国的战略空运部队事实上已成为一支威慑力量，因为只要大型运输机出动 ，作战部队就可迅速部署到世界上任何地区。就我国而言，日益复杂的台海局势迫使我们必须尽快拥有大型运输机 ，为建立一支现代化的具备强大威慑能力的空军，也需要有大型运输机，并在此基础上建立战略空运部队。如果能 够引进足够数量的安-124或安-225大型运输机，我国的军事空运能力将会出现质的变化。

期待国产大型运输机

军用运输机的主要任务是空运军事人员、散装货物（包括食品、医药和弹药等）、大型车辆（包括卡车、吉普车、 装甲车、防空车和小型直升机等）、特大型车辆（包括坦克、大炮、工程和建筑设备、大型卡车和面包车、大型货 运直升机）等。但不能忽视的一点是，大型军用运输机还是预警指挥机、加油机、电子战飞机等特种作战飞机的空 中载机平台。如俄罗斯以伊尔-76运输机为平台发展了A-50预警机和伊尔-78空中加油机。美国以波音-707民航客机为平台开发了KC- 135空中加油机、E-3预警机、E-6战略对潜指挥机、E-8雷达监视机以及EC-18高级靶场测量飞机等。

靠外购是买不来一个国家的军事现代化的。军用运输机不同于民用运输机，如果单纯依靠进口，不但要花费大量经 费，而且飞机的使用维护和技术支援也将受制于人，战时很可能无法发挥应有的作用，更重要的是在飞机的升级改 进及更新换代等方面将无从解决。西欧国家虽然大多使用美国提供的C-130运输机，但是仍然要投巨资研制A-400M运输机，这不仅有经济上的原因，更重要的是安全方面的考虑。因此，就像战斗机、导弹驱逐舰一样，在 购买国外先进产品的同时，我国还必须自力更生开发本国的大型运输机技术。只有拥有国产大型运输机，所有有关 空运的难题才能迎刃而解。

实际上，我国的航空专家早已开始考虑这一问题。在2004年的全国人大会议期间，中国工程院院士、著名航空 动力专家、现任中国航空工业第一集团公司科技委副主任的刘大响向大会提交了《关于尽快开展大型飞机研制的建 议》，呼吁尽快开发我国的大型运输机。刘大响院士在他的提案中指出，“对于中国要不要搞大飞机、能不能搞大 飞机，我认为各方面专家们的意见基本上是一致的，都认为中国一定要搞自己的大飞机。第一、中国有这个需要。 第二、中国有这个技术基础，有这种可能性。第三、这也是我们走向航空强国的必经之路。如果没有自己的大飞机 产业，就只能算是航空大国，而不能说是航空强国，大飞机是个重要标志。”

从航空专家的建议中可以看出，我国有实力开发自己的大型运输机。目前军用运输机正向着大型化、数字化、短距 起落、直接送达、高生存性、低使用成本和“一机多型”的方向发展。国外有许多成功的经验值得我们在开发本国 大型运输机时借鉴。我国航空专家指出，我国要研制大型运输机，首先必须提高对大型运输机的重视程度；其次是 改进现有运输机与研制新型运输机并举，加强我国军用运输机的工业实力；三是坚持自力更生，在研制我国的军用 运输机时，虽然要引进一些国外的先进技术装备、采用一些国外的系统和零部件，但是一定要把自力更生的理念贯 彻始终，在一些关键技术、重要部件上绝不能受制于人；四是走军民结合的道路，与作战飞机相比，运输机更容易 走军民结合的发展道路，在研制军用运输机时应尽量多地采用民用运输机的技术和系统、部件，以降低研制成本。 期待在不久的将来，我国国产大型运输机能腾空而起，飞上蓝天!

http://www.sinodefence.com/news/2004/news011004.asp
China Seeks Heavylift Aircraft

Jane’s Defence Weekly (JDW) reported on 16 September 2004 that China is approaching Ukraine for heavylift aircraft to boost its long-distance strategic power projection capabilities for the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). JDW cites its sources in Beijing that China has launched preliminary talks with Ukraine on the potential acquisition and/or licensed production of Antonov heavylift transport aircraft.

It is understood that China may be interested in purchasing few Antonov An-124 (NATO codename: Condor) four-engine freighters, the world’s largest production aircraft with a maximum payload of 120 tonnes. Additionally, China may also consider the even larger six-engine An-225 Mriya (Dream) freighter, which is the largest aircraft ever built in the history of mankind, with a maximum payload of 250 tonnes.

With its unique transport capabilities and the high performance, the An-124 will provide China with the strategic airlift capabilities it does not possess currently. The PLAAF currently operates fourteen IL-76MD military transport aircraft, each of which can carry 140 troops or 125 paratroops. The An-124 can carry 448 troops or 268 paratroops, or 16 pallets of cargos for airdrops, each weighting up to 4.5 tonnes, outperforming any strategic transport aircraft in service with the Western air forces.

Another important reason that may have attracted China to pursue the An-124 is the potential opportunity of technology transfer or licensed production of the aircraft. The Chinese aviation industry has been long to build a large, modern transport aircraft for both civil and military purposes. Following the several failed attempts to build large commercial airliners jointly with McDonnell Douglas and Airbus in the 1990s, China may well turn to countries like Ukraine and Russia for helps.

It is possible that China may purchase few planes for initial evaluations before further deals are made. It is also possible that the aircraft will be acquired through commercial airlines to keep a low profile.

[tphuang]

This is probably one of the biggest news for China recently. I'm not sure where to put this but transport plane thread probably works the best. It's hard to say how much this will help the transport industry. The MD-90 project with McDonnell Douglas in 1992 really helped jump start the development on ARJ-21. ARJ-21 is a regional jet developed by AVIC-1 that plans to carry 70 to 100 passengers. Whereas, A320 by Airbus will carry any where from 107 to 185 passengers depending on the variant. If China gets to manufacture the larger version, then it does a few things:
1. raise the quality level of production in Chinese aviation companies
2. give Chinese aviation industry the ability to develop larger planes
3. give Chinese aviation the full blueprint and assembling instructions and such for a mature airliner.

I think all of the above would be critical for better indigenous civil airliners and transport planes. It would also allow for development of larger transport and better platforms for AWACS.

Anyhow, the article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051206/bs_afp/chinaaireuairbususboeing_051206114347

SHANGHAI (AFP) - Promises of aerospace technology transfers that helped Airbus clinch its largest-ever order from China could be the first step towards the Asian nation becoming a jet production hub.
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[-78160]

A key incentive of allowing China to produce Airbus jets for the first time was attached to the deal clinched on Monday for 150 mid-range A320 planes worth nearly 10 billion dollars at list prices.

The cooperation protocol agreed to a day earlier foresees the "possibility" of establishing an Airbus assembly plant in China that would turn out single-aisle planes such as the A320.

"It's a very clever move as it obviously brings China into the equation in terms of developing its own capacity," said Ian Thomas, an analyst at the Sydney-based Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation.

"China has a fledgling aircraft manufacturing operation of its own that is nowhere near in the same league as either Airbus or Boeing but no doubt would like to be.

"So from that point of view it brings a lot of value to China... and to actually set up a manufacturing facility in that country is a big bonus."

China has repeatedly stated its ambitions of building large passenger jets by 2020 although it is still struggling to develop a market for domestically built jets of 70 to 90 seats.

The secretary general of European aerospace and defence equipment body GEAD, Olivier Gorge, has already warned Europe's aviation industry needed to be careful not to give away all its trade secrets in its rush to win business in China.

"It is necessary to be sure, therefore, that French technology in terms of aerospace equipment does not go to China through production sub-contracting," Gorge told AFP in an interview last week.

"There have been examples in the past of some parts suppliers returning from China having seen piracy of their technology."

However, if Airbus does proceed with producing jets in China, Thomas said the European conglomerate may well gain an edge over Boeing, its arch rival from the United States.

"There is some political resistance in the US... there are political issues concerning protection of jobs within in the US," said Thomas.

"Boeing is hamstrung, it's a private company but because of its size and importance to the US economy it is essentially an arm of the US economy."

As part of the wide-ranging accord signed during a visit to France by Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, Airbus also offered China a five percent stake in its A350 aircraft program.

The A350 is the European group's response to Boeing's new generation 787 "Dreamliner" passenger jets.

Airbus has yet to receive any orders from China for its A350 aircraft whereas Boeing signed a deal with Beijing in January to sell 60 of its "Dreamliners".

"That (A350 orders) will be the next big milestone achievement for Airbus in the Chinese market," said Derek Sadubin, another analyst with the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation.

In the battle for supremacy of the skies in China and around the globe US aerospace giant Boeing says it has booked 800 commercial plane orders in the first 11 months of 2005, giving it an apparent lead over European rival Airbus.

Airbus, which has been the market leader in recent years, says it has booked 494 orders as of October, compared with 674 for Boeing for the same period. Airbus is due to release new figures this week.

But the new course taken by Airbus to more closely integrate China into its operations may just be enough to allow it to overtake its US rival, especially in China.

Boeing, which has over 70 percent of China's market, predicts the industry will need 2,600 new planes, quadrupling the nation's present fleet, over the next 20 years.

Airbus, a government-run aerospace conglomerate that includes Germany and Spain, wants to grab 50 percent of the market share over the next eight years.

[tphuang]

more commercial airplane news, the first time China has made a sale of it's passenger planes. A breakthrough for China's commercial industry:
http://english.people.com.cn/200512/26/eng20051226_230904.html
China exports batches of regional passenger aircraft

China has made a breakthrough in batch export of new high-tech electromechanical products, signing sales contracts with countries, including Zimbabwe, for 17 Xinzhou-60 aircraft, as learned from the delivery ceremony held on Friday at the Xi'an Aircraft Industry Group Co in Xi'an, according to People's Daily on Monday.

The Xi'an-based company is the designer, developer and tester of Xinzhou-60, the new generation regional passenger aircraft that has reached or been close to international standards in terms of safety, comfort and ease of maintenance. They feature low sales price and oil consumption.

The sales target of about 300 Xinzhou-60 aircraft is hopefully to be achieved around 2020 according to the market survey and analysis released by the China Aviation Technological Import and Export Corporation (CATIEC).

At the delivery ceremony on the same day, Zimbabwe's ambassador to China signed the test certificate for the third plane of the first batch on behalf of the country's national airlines. Prior to this, China delivered two homemade regional aircrafts to Air Zimbabwe, and they are operational in that nation. Air Zimbabwe gave high evaluation to the aircraft, believing that the planes are good in performance with low oil consumption and convenient maintenance.


more news on ARJ-21
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/jan/1252175.htm
China to Trial Make First Independently-developed Regional Jet

(SinoCast China Business Daily News Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge)BEIJING, January 03,. 2, SinoCast -- China has recently passed the examination of airworthiness to the aircraft structure and system drawings of its first regional passenger aircraft under its own property right, ARJ21, and then it will be brought to trial production, domestic media reported.

The development of ARJ21 is one of the significant tasks of most political and strategic meaning undertaken by China Aviation Industry Corporation I.

At the beginning of 2005, it had successfully completed the detailed structure and system design of ARJ21, which had been optimized from the end of last August, and in December, the aircraft's 100% structure drawing and 50% system drawing had been send for examination of airworthiness as scheduled.

And presently, since the examination has been passed, the aircraft's technical status has all been frozen and the related drawings are to be sent for trial production on the full scale.

The report said that the birth of ARJ21 will end the era of provision monopoly by Boeing and Airbus in China.

[tphuang]

Well, it's a huge long article, but this is a real nice read regarding to China's plans of building cargo planes and civlian airliners and such. Our friend Richard Fisher also went through the surveillence platforms a little bit.

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.113/pub_detail.asp

[MIGleader]

Theres a couple of errors...
1. it says the y-8f600 has not flown yet, but we alll know it has in the form of the balance beam AEW. on a side note, the crash could mean the design is not perfect

2. reference to the ZLC-2000 as a light tank:roll:

[tphuang]

news on IL-76

　　中评社香港9月20日电／据俄罗斯《生意人报》报道，中国从俄罗斯采购的伊尔-76型军事运输机以及伊尔-78型空中加油机的合同，在执行中遭遇困难。根据合同，第一架运输机本应在今年夏季交付，但由于飞机生产厂 人员流失严重，交货时间至今仍是未知数。
　
　　香港《文汇报》引述报道，由于不满俄方违约行为，中国最近取消了俄国防部长9月访华计划。此外，双方计 划讨论和签署的大约8亿美元（约合60亿港币）的军火交易订单（按，详见表）也面临搁置。
　
　　去年，中俄举行首次大规模联合军演后，中国立刻决定采购34架伊尔-76型军事运输机和4架伊尔-78型空中加油机，合同总金额达到15亿美元（约合110亿港币）。
　
　　然而，负责组装的奇卡洛夫飞机制造厂（位于乌兹别克斯坦首都塔什干），由于长期没有订单人员流失严重， 目前已无能力生产大批飞机。
　
　　虽然，俄罗斯空军总司令米哈伊洛夫8月曾表示，将把该厂从乌兹别克移至俄罗斯境内。但分析人士认为，转 移及重组生产需要花费时间，因此，俄方的交货日期仍是未知数。
　
　　不过，专家指出，由于普京政府将中国看成是战略伙伴，因此，俄方可能会积极解决问题。

中俄搁置武器购买计划：
项目／金额

■4艘欧洲野牛式大型气垫登陆舰／2.1亿美元
■15架别-200型反潜飞机／4亿美元
■40架卡-29型空降运输直升飞机及20多架卡-31型无线电定位导航侦察直升飞机／2亿美元　

looks like the Russians are having trouble delivering the IL-76. It also states that there is 800 million USD of weapon that China is about to purchase from the Russians that is put on hold due to IL-76.

they include
4 Zubr - 210 million USD
15 Be-200 - 400 million USD
40 ka-29 and 20 ka-31 - 200 million USD

[BLUEJACKET]

I hope this will help!-
The PLAAF has been reportedly considering to acquire the IL-78 aerial refuelling tanker for many years. Although China has developed its indigenous refuelling tanker on the basis of the H-6 (Tu-16 Barger) medium bomber, its performance is much inferior to that of the Russian IL-78. Additionally, the aerial refuelling probe on the PLAAF’s Su-30MKK fighter-bombers is said to be not compatible with the refuelling system of the H-6 tanker. http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airlift/il78.asp
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/il76-01.htm
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-airlift-il76-3.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/il-76-specs.htm
http://www.aeroworld.net/1ra02177.htm
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/Il-76_Y-8X_H-6U.htm
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.8/pub_detail.asp

The AN-70 could be reengined with jets instead (if the original ones couldn't be fixed), and China could use them too!
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-an70-8.jpg
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.113/pub_detail.asp

The developmental aircraft is capable of carrying 35 tons of freight and has a flight range of 5,000 km. The market demand has been estimated at over 1,000 planes.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200604/06/eng20060406_256429.html

http://www.mosnews.com/money/2006/10/06/venezuelaantonov.shtml

[Totoro]

CDF site/blog (not the forum section) says that the 38 il76/78 china ordered from russia were to be be made (assembled?) in china. But apparently that fell through and is the reason why that project is not really moving along yet. Is that true? It goes against what has been said all along till now, that it was to be a simple russian made delivered to china purchase, especially with recent articles citing slow russian manufacture which made chinese angry and threatening to cancel the deal. So what is the truth here, in the end? I must say that prospect of constructing that type of plane in china could very well help its heavy plane design/construction capabilities and could be a huge boon for the kj2000 awacs project.

[tphuang]

CDF site/blog (not the forum section) says that the 38 il76/78 china ordered from russia were to be be made (assembled?) in china. But apparently that fell through and is the reason why that project is not really moving along yet. Is that true? It goes against what has been said all along till now, that it was to be a simple russian made delivered to china purchase, especially with recent articles citing slow russian manufacture which made chinese angry and threatening to cancel the deal. So what is the truth here, in the end? I must say that prospect of constructing that type of plane in china could very well help its heavy plane design/construction capabilities and could be a huge boon for the kj2000 awacs project.

I was under the impression that the contract always to be completed in Russia, because China simply did have enough to gain by license producing them. I'm sure there is a heavy transportation plane in development in AVIC, but no clue when it might be available. In a way, it's kind of hard for China to threaten, since it actually needs and doesn't have that many IL-76. Maybe it will go for An-124 or An-70? Who knows.

[tphuang]

Hey, the Russians are making more promises, let's see if this deal gets fulfilled or not. China is definitely pissed.

ZHUHAI. Nov 1 (Interfax-AVN) - The contract to deliver Ilyushin Il-
76MD military-transport planes and Il-78 refueling aircraft to China
will be honored, whichever problems may arise at the Tashkent aircraft
corporation, Russia's Federal Military Technical Cooperation Service
said.
"There are problems, but the contract will be definitely
fulfilled," Russian delegation leader and the Service's deputy head
Alexander Denisov said at the Air show China-2006 international aviation
and space show on Wednesday.
"Ways to settle the current problems are being negotiated with the
Tashkent aircraft corporation and different options are being
considered, but our Chinese partners must not worry," Denisov said.
An agreement to deliver 34 Il-76MD military-transport planes and
four Il-78 refueling planes to China was signed in September 2005. The
deal is valued at some $1.5 billion. According to unofficial reports,
Russia has yet to confirm the contract's entry into force since the
Tashkent aircraft corporation said it could not guarantee the planes
would be built.

[wanderingmind]

All the hue and cry in this thread seems to be how China needs IL-76 and IL-78 aircraft and their Y-9s for tactical transport. Here, again, everyone's overlooking the little guys on the ground. Big lifters are great, as long as you've got big runways to put them on.

But how about footslogger Chen Wu's platoon way out in the boondocks? Where's China's equivalent of the C-27? Where's their equivalent of the U-8 Beaver? When young Chen gets hungry, does he have to wait for his bowl of rice to be trucked 200 miles from the big runway, then another 50 miles by helicopter, then another 10 miles by jeep? And vice-versa if he gets hurt?

If the PLA is smart, the PLAAF will do some expenditures on "ground interface support." Little birds aren't flashy big-ticket items, but they're the heart and soul of support operations. It's like the USA: the flyboys forget where they came from...

[isthvan]

All the hue and cry in this thread seems to be how China needs IL-76 and IL-78 aircraft and their Y-9s for tactical transport. Here, again, everyone's overlooking the little guys on the ground. Big lifters are great, as long as you've got big runways to put them on.

But how about footslogger Chen Wu's platoon way out in the boondocks? Where's China's equivalent of the C-27? Where's their equivalent of the U-8 Beaver? When young Chen gets hungry, does he have to wait for his bowl of rice to be trucked 200 miles from the big runway, then another 50 miles by helicopter, then another 10 miles by jeep? And vice-versa if he gets hurt?

If the PLA is smart, the PLAAF will do some expenditures on "ground interface support." Little birds aren't flashy big-ticket items, but they're the heart and soul of support operations. It's like the USA: the flyboys forget where they came from...

Hi wanderingmind.
China has quite decent fleet of An-24/26 and indigenous version of An-26 called Y-7. This is more or less equivalent of C-27... As for Beaver I believe that Chinese still have large number of Y-5(An-2) in active service...

[tphuang]

on Y-8F600 from the Zhuhai airshow as reported by flightglobal
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/11/07/Navigation/197/210444/Airshow+China+2006+Shaanxi+assembles+first+batch+o f+Y8-F600+test+aircraft%2c+sees+certification+by.html

Airshow China 2006: Shaanxi assembles first batch of Y8-F600 test aircraft, sees certification by year-end
By Leithen Francis

Shaanxi Aircraft is undertaking final assembly of the first batch of Shaanxi Y8-F600 test aircraft and expects the freighter variant to be certificated by the end of next year. Shaanxi vice-president Liu Bin says the Y8-F600's first flight will be "in January or February next year".

China Postal Airlines, which operates five Y8-F100s, signed a letter of intent to be launch customer for an undisclosed number of Y8-F600s.

AIR SHOW CHINA


This article is part of a full report into Airshow China 2006. For more news stories from the Zhuhai show, click here

Shaanxi has also been speaking with other potential customers, such as Shaanxi United Delong Airlines in Xian and Okay Airways in Tianjin, says Liu. Shaanxi is waiting for United Delong's air operator's certificate to be approved before beginning formal negotiations.

The Pratt & Whitney Canada PW150B-powered Y8F-600 is a derivative of the Y8F-400, which used the indigenous WJ6 engine.

[BLUEJACKET]

"Russia & Ukraine agreed to resume joint series production of AN-124 cargo plane. (max payload 150T, 30T more than the C-5 Galaxy). Cruise speed-750-800 км/hr., Range with max payload 4500 км, with 100 т - over 7,000 км."
Please see my post here-

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?p=48602#post48602

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Schlifer/1648.jpg

http://www.sinodefence.com/news/2004/news011004.asp

The PLAAF may also consider TU-330:
The aircraft is capable to operate on routs of 5600 km with payload of 20 t and for 3000 km range with payload of 30 t. Thus this aircraft can fully replace AN-12 a/c and partially IL-76 a/c on mid-range flights.
TU-330 a/c has been optimized to operate on mid-range routes wherein the aircraft has the best prime cost parameters.
Further important advantage of TU-330 a/c is a deep (up to 75%) commonality with certified passenger aircraft TU-204 and TU-214. Wide application on TU-330 aircraft the TU-204 and TU-214 a/c units and components tried out and tested during operation made it possible to cut down sharply the dates of research and development works and certification process for TU-330 a/c.
The aircraft will have more favorable market situation especially among airlines which operate TU-204 and TU-214 a/c. It also can be provided with engines of foreign production – Rolls-Royce, Pratt Whitney - which will facilitate its realization in western markets.
Airlines of Eastern and Western Europe, Middle East and South-East Asia express their keen interest in TU-330 a/c project during International Airshows.

http://www.tupolev.ru/English/Show.asp?SectionID=123

http://www.tupolev.ru/English/Show.asp?PubID=3440

[tphuang]

well, a little more detail on how that IL-76/78 order will be fulfilled.

MOSCOW. Dec 27 (Interfax-AVN) - The Tashkent Aircraft Production
Association (TAPO) will produce 16 Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft under a
Chinese contract, while another 22 aircraft, including four Il-78
refueling tankers, will be produced at Aviastar-SP in Ulyanovsk, with
the Ilyushin Aviation Complex being the main contractor, a source in the
defense and industry complex told Interfax.
"Assuming that TAPO cannot execute the Chinese contract by its own
means for objective reasons, a decision to build some Il-76 and Il-78
aircraft in Russia was taken. The launch of a serial production at the
Ulyanovsk's Aviastar-SP enterprise is being prepared," the source said.
In fact, the contract will be divided between the factories in
Tashkent and Ulyanovsk, he said. "The work to produce 16 Il-76 aircraft
in Tashkent has begun. Planes will be completed and delivered to China.
The other 22 planes are scheduled to be produced at the Ulyanovsk
factory in close cooperation with other Russian enterprises," the source
said.
All Il-76 modifications (Il-76MD, Il-76MF, Il-78 and others) will
be produced in Ulyanovsk. Actual production is unlikely to begin before
2010, he said.
The relocation of Il-76 production from Uzbekistan to Russia will
require significant investment, some $400 million-$500 million, with all
the money expected to come from the budget.
"Taking into consideration that the U.S. dollar exchange rate has
declined substantially since the deal was reached 18 months ago, while
prices for materials and components have grown, the Chinese contract is
barely profitable. Assuming the relocation of the Il-76 production to
Russia, the contract is even a loss maker. Nevertheless Russia cannot
fail to implement the contract, because a Chinese customer has
officially informed Russia that the contract has already come into
operation on its side," the source said.
The contract to deliver 38 planes, including 34 Il-76MD and four
Il-78 aircraft, to China was signed in September 2005. Experts appraise
the deal at $1.5 billion. The first plane is to be delivered to the
customer in 2007, the last in 2012. "The terms are likely to be
extended," the source said.

[BLUEJACKET]

Dec. 27, 2006
Ilyushin Co. to Construct Aircraft for China
Russia’s state exporter of armaments, Rosoboronexport has changed the key contactor for constructing 38 Il-76 and Il-78 transport aircraft for China worth more than $1 billion overall. Ilyushin Co. will be in charge of the contract instead of Tashkent Chkalov Aircraft Association, Rosoboronexport decided.
In January, Rosoboronexport will conclude an agency agreement (i.e. the agreement with the key contractor) with Ilyushin Aircraft Co., said a source with the government on condition of anonymity.
The agreement will set into motion the last year’s contract for supplying to China 34 Il-76 MD transport and assault aircraft and four Il-78 refueling aircraft for a total worth of $1.045 billion. The former main contractor, Tashkent Chkalov Aircraft Association will construct no more than 15 planes to be delivered from 2008 to 2010. Aviastar-SP, Ulyanovsk, will make the remaining 23 planes.
Russia’s goverment will appropriate 6.4 billion rubles for this purpose before 2009. The serial production is slated to begin in 2010, and Ulyanovsk enterprise is expected to annually come up with ten planes of Il-76MD or Il-76MF type starting from 2012. The change of the main contractor will put off the contract deadline from 2012 to 2013.
www.kommersant.com
http://www.kommersant.com/p733446/r_529/Il-76_change_contractor/

To fulfill the contract on time, the Russians could also either sell some newer Il-76MD/78s from their AF stocks (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/il-76.htm) and/or offer some AN-124s (each can haul twice as much) instead of some IL-76s.
Indeed, PLAAF may also want to get more capable Il-76MFs later, (as Jordan already (http://http://www.idexnews.com/News.asp/id/357) ordered 2).
The Il-76MF is a 6.6m (22ft) stretch of the Il-76MD Candid (military) or TD (civil) freighter. It can carry 60t (132,600lb) over 3,600km (1950nm) and its maximum range is 9,600km.
http://81.144.183.107/Articles/2000/04/18/64622/Uzbekistan+to+fit+Il-76MFs+with+CFM56+engines.html

[Deino]

Just found at the CDF !!

一航公布的大飞机专项的概念图 类似于C-17的大型军用运输机

... is it a real concept or only another "dream" ??

Deino :confused:


http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/Y-New_all.jpg

[tphuang]

hey Deino, I think this might interest you

2007年01月08日20:21 中国新闻网 %I vhSp{

　　中新社北京一月八日电 (记者 孙自法)中国国防科学技术工业委员会秘书长、新闻发言人黄强八日下午说，目前，中国正在对大飞机研制这一国 家重大科技专项进行积极、谨慎的论证。  IS8|]

?5",tl6
　　中国二○○七年国防科技工业工作会议当天在北京举行，黄强在是次会议的新闻发布会上回答本社记者提问时 透露了这一信息。他说，中国的大飞机研制一直以来备受海内外关注，中国老百姓的呼声也越来越高。大飞机代表 一个国家竞争力的制高点，中国将通过军民统筹来推进大飞机的研制。 !U`-"`#g1
5rl6n2cUk_
　　这位发言人表示，大飞机研制的难度很大，周期当然比较长，他估计中国大飞机专项将跨两到三个五年计划， 关键是前期工作要做得充分、扎实一些。 |rV5Qb[H
qMU9":g>
　　国防科工委于上一年度工作会议上首次披露，“十一五”期间，中国航空工业将适时启动大飞机的研制。此后 不久，国务院发布《国家中长期科学和技术发展规划纲要(二○○六—二○二○年)》，大飞机与载人航天工程、 “嫦娥”工程等一起被列入该纲要十六个国家重大科技专项中。

basically, saying that China is looking to develop a new plane, but the project is extremely challenging and it would take two to three five year period to develop it. So, the project is probably going to take from 2006 to 2020.

[Pointblank]

Just found at the CDF !!

一航公布的大飞机专项的概念图 类似于C-17的大型军用运输机

... is it a real concept or only another "dream" ??

Deino :confused:


http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/Y-New_all.jpg

Looks like a Boeing C-17 Globemaster... Same basic shape and configuration...

[montyp165]

AS-90 engined Il-76s would be best for placeholders until the new domestic medium transport is developed. Domestic production of An-124 would be great for heavy lift, though.

[Chengdu J-10]

An-124 yes but the PLAAF is looking for a military aircraft that can be launched on unprepared, bad, broken paveway. An-124 would be a good heavey lift aircraft for the PLAAF but it is too big and expensive worth over $100 million per aircraft. But the PLAAF next generation of transport besides the Y-9 which is comparable to the C-130J which can carry 20,000kg, should also introduce another transport aircraft that can carry 30,000kg something comparable to the Airbus A 400M. If the PLAAF is looking for a truly strategic airlifter capable of carrying MBT then the C-17 Globemaster 3 would be the way to go not purchasing it but something comparable. Though it is expensive and China hasn't exactly perfected the art in turbofan technology. So the turboprop Airbus A 400M comparable aircraft would be the way to go. C-17 can carry 74, 785kg so 2 A 400M equavlent would be a cheaper solution and safer. Two carriers instead of one single expensive one to go down in flames.

[BLUEJACKET]

That's why AN-70 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/an-70.htm)may be an option. Also, there are some AN-22s (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/an-22.htm)in flying condition that Russia and/or Ukraine could sell to PLAAF to fill the gap.
..the An-22 (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/transport-m/an22/)could take off in 1,400 meters (4,265 feet) in fully-loaded condition. ..
[it]was designed for rough-field operation, with two-wheel nosegear and three levered-suspension dual main landing gear assemblies in each fairing, for a total of six main gear assemblies and twelve main gear wheels. The aircrew could adjust tire pressure from the cockpit to compensate for field conditions. ..It is unclear how many An-22s still remain in service, maybe about a dozen or two dozen in all.
http://www.vectorsite.net/avantgt.html#m1

http://www.aviation.ru/afherald/596/an22_1.jpg

[Pointblank]

An-124 yes but the PLAAF is looking for a military aircraft that can be launched on unprepared, bad, broken paveway. An-124 would be a good heavey lift aircraft for the PLAAF but it is too big and expensive worth over $100 million per aircraft. But the PLAAF next generation of transport besides the Y-9 which is comparable to the C-130J which can carry 20,000kg, should also introduce another transport aircraft that can carry 30,000kg something comparable to the Airbus A 400M. If the PLAAF is looking for a truly strategic airlifter capable of carrying MBT then the C-17 Globemaster 3 would be the way to go not purchasing it but something comparable. Though it is expensive and China hasn't exactly perfected the art in turbofan technology. So the turboprop Airbus A 400M comparable aircraft would be the way to go. C-17 can carry 74, 785kg so 2 A 400M equavlent would be a cheaper solution and safer. Two carriers instead of one single expensive one to go down in flames.

Sometimes, you need the lift provided by a heavylift aircraft, such as the C-17 or the AN-124, as you can't break down the load into smaller parts. That is why some NATO nations are so interested in the C-17, because they have loads that cannot be broken down into smaller components.


That's why AN-70 may be an option. Also, there are some AN-22s in flying condition that Russia and/or Ukraine could sell to PLAAF to fill the gap.
Quote:
..the An-22 could take off in 1,400 meters (4,265 feet) in fully-loaded condition. ..
[it]was designed for rough-field operation, with two-wheel nosegear and three levered-suspension dual main landing gear assemblies in each fairing, for a total of six main gear assemblies and twelve main gear wheels. The aircrew could adjust tire pressure from the cockpit to compensate for field conditions. ..It is unclear how many An-22s still remain in service, maybe about a dozen or two dozen in all.
http://www.vectorsite.net/avantgt.html#m1

AN-70's development has been in trouble for a long time. No one is interested in the aircraft, as most nations are either turning to the IL-76 or the A400M or C-130J. The lack of political will from Russia and the Ukraine to continue funding development will mean that this will be a private Antonov project, and Antonov has enough issues with funding.

[Chengdu J-10]

Sometimes, you need the lift provided by a heavylift aircraft, such as the C-17 or the AN-124, as you can't break down the load into smaller parts. That is why some NATO nations are so interested in the C-17, because they have loads that cannot be broken down into smaller components.



AN-70's development has been in trouble for a long time. No one is interested in the aircraft, as most nations are either turning to the IL-76 or the A400M or C-130J. The lack of political will from Russia and the Ukraine to continue funding development will mean that this will be a private Antonov project, and Antonov has enough issues with funding.
Yes China is obviously in need for heavey lift aircraft besides its current fleet of lift aircrafts IL-76 and Y-8. The Ukrain has proposed the large transport aircraft programe to China for the possible future heavey airlift aircraft. Its aparently based on the original An-70 but replacing its 4 turboprop with 4 turbofans. This would give the aircraft a 55-60 tonne payload, classifying it as a heavey lift aircraft. Something comparable to the C-17 only shy to its 70 tonne payload. It would increase the PLAAF strategic airlift and will give them an aircraft that is comparable to the Western C-17 strategic airlift. Already the PLAAF is developing something that is comparable to the latest C-130 Transport aircraft something in the C-130J cabality the aircraft is said to be designated Y-9.

[sumdud]

Hmm? How much can the An-70 lift? I read somewhere it can lift about 103 metric tonnes??? :confused:
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/index.htm
Down in the yellow box. Plausible?

Anyway, here's a link on China's jetted Antonov.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/airlift/newtransport.asp

[Scratch]

Hmm? How much can the An-70 lift? I read somewhere it can lift about 103 metric tonnes??? :confused:

I think it's a typing error and means 103.600lb, since empty weight is 66t and maxTOW 130t.

[BLUEJACKET]

While waiting for the AN-70 or some other model, China could get AN-22s and maybe license produce them like they reverse engineered the AN-12 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/an-12.htm)which became the Y-8 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/y-8.htm). If they should also introduce another transport aircraft that can carry 30,000kg something comparable to the Airbus A 400M. then having a 40 ton capacity is even better for an extra margin- or it could be downgraded by less floor strength/engine power.
Today some An-70 (http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news094.htm)developers allege that Airbus "borrowed" many features of the An-70 for its A400M: in the end the "evaluation" of the An-7X by the DaimlerChrysler was not a complete waste of time for the German company. Europe's EADS is actively trying to attract some of the An-70 developers to working on the A400M program. These attempts will continue and already there are reports of various distinct technical solutions developed for the An-70 being applied to the A400M to make the aircraft more affordable.

[Chengdu J-10]

While waiting for the AN-70 or some other model, China could get AN-22s and maybe license produce them like they reverse engineered the AN-12 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/an-12.htm)which became the Y-8 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/y-8.htm). If they then having a 40 ton capacity is even better for an extra margin- or it could be downgraded by less floor strength/engine power.
You need both the balance of turboprop and turbofan engine aircraft lifters and transporters. It is really unwise just to have turbofan transport planes because they can lift more payload then turboprops can. Turbofan engine aircrafts require a longer runway while turboprops require less runway. Also Chinese turbofan sector isn't what you say booming. Though they have mastered the turboprop engine area.

[BLUEJACKET]

An-70 may end up with another kind of engine, as was already mentioned here. IMO if the Chinese felt the need for another cargo plane in 30-40T range they would have gotten it by now, or at least be working on getting it. The A400M may fall under embargo- unless 2 things happen:
1. It's offered in a civilian version;
2. The price is lower and/or its capability is higher than other bids.

[tphuang]

i guess it was pretty obvious that this is going to happen. IL-76 deal looked to be in trouble for about a year now. Wondering what's going to happen.

http://www.kommersant.com/p-10706/Il-76_delivery_China/
Russia Not to Profit on Il-76 Deliveries to China
Russia has faced difficulties while implementing the contract for delivering
Il-76 aircraft to China, Gazeta reported on Monday.
Sticking to the prices of 2005 agreement will result in material losses for
Russia, said Ilyushin Aviation Complex General Director Viktor Livanov. So, the
contract has been suspended and today's concern is to find ways to execute it
without hefty financial losses.

The difficulties related to the contract's implementation will be the highlight
of negotiations that Boris Aleshin, chief of Federal Agency for Industry, will
hold in Uzbekistan.

The thing is that the subcontractor is Uzbek Tashkent Aviation and Production
Association. This enterprise used to make such aircraft in time of the former
Soviet Union and Russia lacks the respective facilities.

According to analysts, Russia is willing to construct an Il-76 production line
in one of its enterprises and may suggest amending the contract to partners in
China, prodding them to share the costs for launching the line. The estimated
amount is between $80 million and $100 million.


Russian-Chinese deal of 38 Ilyushin aircraft suspended (repeat)

Moscow. May 14. INTERFAX-AVN - The execution of a contract for the sale
of 34 Ilyushin Il-76MD military transport aircraft and four Il-78 tanker