Japan spots Chinese Warships

[Fairthought]

Here is the source:

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2005-daily/10-09-2005/world/w4.htm

Here is the article:

Japan spots Chinese warships

TOKYO: Japanese authorities said on Friday they had seen Chinese warships for the first time near a disputed gas field in the East China Sea, which Tokyo recently opened to exploration.

A fleet of five ships, including a 7,940-tonne Sovremenny-class destroyer, had been spotted mid-morning by a Japanese P-3C patrol plane near the Chunxiao gas field, said the Defence Agency’s maritime staff office.

The gas field lies just on China’s side of what Japan claims to be the median line between their exclusive economic zones. China does not recognize the line. In November, Japan spotted a Chinese nuclear submarine intruding into what it considers its waters near the gas fields. Relations between the nations have seriously deteriorated this year over both the gas field and memories of Japan’s bloody wartime occupation of China. Beijing has been incensed at visits to a Tokyo war shrine by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, who is predicted to win a general election Sunday, which he has kept focused on domestic economic reforms.

[chinawhite]

here are the pictures. creds to cyberhorse

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/86/3989901bx.jpg

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/322/3989918gt.jpg





http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/

[chinawhite]

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/1411/3989938xs.jpg

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/5774/3989943ks.jpg

[chinawhite]

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/6403/3989952dx.jpg

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/4984/3989962zf.jpg

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/1266/3989971sn.jpg

[President]

Japanese warships visit gas feild more often than us. they are actually everywhere in west pacific. they have better navy

[BrotherofSnake]

I wonder what would have happened if the Japanese sunk that ship.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

I wonder what would have happened if the Japanese sunk that ship.

China would declare war on Japan, the world would condemn Japan, and the US will pull out of Japan.

And can someone tell me what ships are shown in those pictures? Only one of them looks modern, and only two look like warships. What are the other pictures? Especially the one with what looks like a electrical pylon over its bridge.

[DPRKUnderground]

China would declare war on Japan, the world would condemn Japan, and the US will pull out of Japan.

What are you talking about? The US would stay in Japan and fight the Chinese to help defend Japan! OK, so it was China's before, but oh well, Japan invaded it and the Chinese didn't realize that it was origanlly apart of China until the 70's! They didn't even know it was their island! :eek: .

[ger_mark]

they would just find a stupid excuse for that sunk ship
maybe it was hit by a whale or something
pentagon is very good in lieing

just ask rumsfeld :D
everyone knew that his proves from 2003 were faked, they even said that they were faked on the same day in security council, but somehow this does never reached u.s. media until these days :rolleyes:

[T-U-P]

they would just find a stupid excuse for that sunk ship
maybe it was hit by a whale or something
pentagon is very good in lieing
pentagon? why would pentagon make up excuses for japan? sure, US would help japan if there's a war but what's the point of making up excuses for something US didn't do? japan on the other hand would. probably something like giant crabs. you know, there've been giant crabs living near japan, and there was a few incidents where they killed some swimmers.

[Gollevainen]

And can someone tell me what ships are shown in those pictures? Only one of them looks modern, and only two look like warships. What are the other pictures? Especially the one with what looks like a electrical pylon over its bridge.

well the Sovremennyy...everyone should know it, also the other warship, Jianghu I ( :( ) class. The support vessels are the bran new Underway replashement ship and the Intelligent cathering ship Yuan Wang 4....

[walter]

pentagon? why would pentagon make up excuses for japan? sure, US would help japan if there's a war but what's the point of making up excuses for something US didn't do? japan on the other hand would. probably something like giant crabs. you know, there've been giant crabs living near japan, and there was a few incidents where they killed some swimmers.

maybe godzilla would be blamed :D

[Liberator]

What are you talking about? The US would stay in Japan and fight the Chinese to help defend Japan! OK, so it was China's before, but oh well, Japan invaded it and the Chinese didn't realize that it was origanlly apart of China until the 70's! They didn't even know it was their island! .

What are you talking about? If China declare war on Japan, USA will NOT even gonna help Japan, and are going to pull its forces and base from Japan and bring em back to thier USA... NO OFFENSE.

[walter]

What are you talking about? If China declare war on Japan, USA will NOT even gonna help Japan, and are going to pull its forces and base from Japan and bring em back to thier USA... NO OFFENSE.

It all depends on the context of the declaration of war, but rest assured the US is legally obligated to defend Japan if it is attacked.

[walter]

Curse the pentagon. Any 1 who visted it shall be killed.

PENTAGON is the most hated symbol of USA power. Curse it! Damn it.

I personally hate McDonalds more than the Pentagon, but that's just me.

[bd popeye]

Curse the pentagon. Any 1 who visted it shall be killed.

PENTAGON is the most hated symbol of USA power. Curse it! Damn it.

Let me get this correct..You want everyone that ever visited the Pentagon dead? That is sick. I visited the Pentagon some years ago. Do you want me dead? What about all the average everyday people that visited the Pentagon for one reason or another? You want them dead also? Sick :mad:
A sick disgusting comment.

I had a friend ,Lt.CDR Otis Tolbert, that was killed there on September 11th 2001. I guess you are happy about that?

I myself would not wish death on anyone,any race, any country. Anything ever.

Your comments are dispicable.

[bd popeye]

What are you talking about? If China declare war on Japan, USA will NOT even gonna help Japan, and are going to pull its forces and base from Japan and bring em back to thier USA... NO OFFENSE

What are you posting about? The US is bound by treaty to help in the defense of Japan. That's one reason there are about 40,000 US Marines,Sailors and Airmen station in Japan and Okinawa.

If you really think the US would pullout in the event of a conflict with the PRC please stae a reason why the US would pull out.

Thank you.

[Chairman Hu]

Yea no offense but that comment IS sick and today is 9/11 so ITZ EVEN SICKER! Well people itz always war war war war war and war...

SO what if the japanese spots our ship, China and veto Japan's place on the security council, China can get 3rd world nation to break diplomancy with Japan as long as China provides the needs for those country, like half a year earlier China provided African nations fresh water tech and they gradly wont support Taiwan's independence... so... yea thats my point

[Obcession]

Today is 9/11? I never knew.

My condolensces to all whom died that day.

Yea, so what if Japan spots the ships? They ain't gonna do anything about it.

[PLABUDDY]

Today is 9/11? I never knew.

My condolensces to all whom died that day.

Yea, so what if Japan spots the ships? They ain't gonna do anything about it.

Exactely...

[bd popeye]

Yea, so what if Japan spots the ships? They ain't gonna do anything about it.

Exactly. what could they do? It's not an invasion force or anything. Last time I checked the sea is international territory.

[Fairthought]

I think you forget the context.

China and Japan are contesting the gas fields in those waters. China isn't going to just stand by and watch Japan steal what they see as their energy resources. The ships are sending a message: Stop what your'e doing and dismantle your rig.

This may or may not be a bluff.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

What are you talking about? The US would stay in Japan and fight the Chinese to help defend Japan! OK, so it was China's before, but oh well, Japan invaded it and the Chinese didn't realize that it was origanlly apart of China until the 70's! They didn't even know it was their island! :eek: .

OMFG. Are you retarded!?!?! No wait, I shouldn't be mean to someone with MENTAL DISABILTIES!

Could you not read the article? The Chinese ships were on what even the Japanese said was the CHINESE SIDE OF THE ISLAND CHAIN! If the Japanese attacked a Chinese ship on Chinese territory without any provacation (and Chinese ships sailing on their own territory DOES NOT COUNT), then there will be NO WAY IN HELL that the US will back Japan!

[MIGleader]

nice squadron of ships, although the kaigun would ink every one of them except the sov with a few kongos.

the Us help japan in a war that japan started? i dont thinks so. even if they did, the chinese could use it as an excuse to raise defence spending and ask the russian baltic fleet for help.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Plus the PLAAF would sink every Japanese naval vessel within 1500 km of the Chinese coastline. Maybe the Japs might shoot down a few dozen Flankers and Lepoards, but thats about it.

[MIGleader]

leopards? is that a chinese plane?

[FriedRiceNSpice]

nice squadron of ships, although the kaigun would ink every one of them except the sov with a few kongos.

the Us help japan in a war that japan started? i dont thinks so. even if they did, the chinese could use it as an excuse to raise defence spending and ask the russian baltic fleet for help.

Well, out of the 5 ships, only 1 is a modern warship. The others are either the outdated Jianghu or support ships.

leopards? is that a chinese plane?

Ever heard of the Flying Leopard?

[MIGleader]

nope. is it a j-8 varient. i heard of the south african plane modified from the mirage three. very inovative.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

The Flying Lepaord is also known as the JH-7.

[Su-27 Pilot]

I wonder what would have happened if the Japanese sunk that ship.

That will be an Act of War which will result in massive nuclear strike on the japanese homeland. Somehow Japan and Nuke linked together always. !!

[Su-27 Pilot]

The Flying Lepaord is also known as the JH-7.

Yes, Jh7 improved version. The improvement included better fire-control systema and other minor computer and radar system. But the turbo-engine is still the same Chinese made one. JH-7 is still in service with the PLAN naval air force

[BrotherofSnake]

That will be an Act of War which will result in massive nuclear strike on the japanese homeland. Somehow Japan and Nuke linked together always. !!

I don't think nukes will be invovled.

[T-U-P]

even if they did, the chinese could use it as an excuse to raise defence spending
that would be a bit too late if there's a war happening already.

and no, nukes would not be used. because the whole world would be watching china's next move so there's all the international pressure and china wouldn't dare to use nukes even if it was planned (and i highly doubt that china would've planned on using nukes in the first place).

Su-27 Pilot, please use the "edit" button located at the bottom right-hand corner of your original post if you want to add something instead of double-posting.

[MIGleader]

sry. i forgot about the jh-7a. no nukes will be used, though im sure it will be threatened. the chinese would just sanction japan and the war is won. if not, they could send their taiwan marines to amphip japan before it was ready.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

sry. i forgot about the jh-7a. no nukes will be used, though im sure it will be threatened. the chinese would just sanction japan and the war is won. if not, they could send their taiwan marines to amphip japan before it was ready.

The Taiwan part brought up another good point. Taiwan would probably declare war on Japan too. Maybe even the Koreas.

[MIGleader]

if japan sunk the ships, the chinese would be even more pissed. how would the japs worm their way out of such an incident? that would definitly bar permanent Un membership. maybe thats why china sen the ships, because they knew japan would not sink them.

[Su-27 Pilot]

that would be a bit too late if there's a war happening already.

and no, nukes would not be used. because the whole world would be watching china's next move so there's all the international pressure and china wouldn't dare to use nukes even if it was planned (and i highly doubt that china would've planned on using nukes in the first place).

Su-27 Pilot, please use the "edit" button located at the bottom right-hand corner of your original post if you want to add something instead of double-posting.

Oh no I'm not double posting. Im just trying to show some respect to different members instead of pushing all the answers from different posts to one.

[Su-27 Pilot]

if japan sunk the ships, the chinese would be even more pissed. how would the japs worm their way out of such an incident? that would definitly bar permanent Un membership. maybe thats why china sen the ships, because they knew japan would not sink them.

Japan is basically a goon controlled by a NATION to both spy and disrupt PRC's political and military activies as much as they want.

[drunkhomer]

China deploys ships to area Japan claims
Tensions rise as fleet of warships appears near disputed gas field just days before election and a few weeks before drilling is to begin
Norimitsu Onishi, Howard W. French, New York Times

Sunday, September 11, 2005

Tokyo -- In a muscular display of its rising military and economic might, China deployed a fleet of five warships on Friday near a gas field in the East China Sea, a potentially resource-rich area that is disputed by China and Japan.

The ships, including a guided-missile destroyer, were spotted by a Japanese military patrol plane near the Chunxiao gas field, according to Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Forces. It is believed to be the first time that Chinese warships have been seen in that area.

Although the fleet's mission was unclear, the timing suggested that it was no coincidence. The warships appeared two days before a general election in Japan, whose results could greatly influence relations between Asia's two great powers, and weeks before China is scheduled to start producing gas in the area, despite strong Japanese protests.

Until Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi diverted Japanese voters' attention away from Japan's deteriorating relationship with China, the focus for several months had been on the increasing diplomatic, military and economic rivalry with China -- much of it taking place in the waters between the countries. Both Japan and China are determined to wield a strong hand in the oil-rich seas and strategic shipping lanes that lie between them.

"It is like the 1930s again, when the central Pacific became a vital concern to both the United States and Japan, whose navy was expanding," said Adm. Lang Ning-li, who until his recent retirement was Taiwan's director of naval intelligence. "That means there could be conflict between China and Japan, which both see these seas as vital and can't share this space."

Security experts from China, Japan, Taiwan and the United States say that all the elements are in place for a showdown over Taiwan between Beijing and Tokyo. No one is predicting war, but Taiwan poses a permanent and unpredictable potential crisis. The United States has a close alliance with Japan, security commitments with Taiwan and a complex relationship with China that mixes rivalry with extensive economic ties.

For America, whose support of either Japan or China has historically tipped the balance in the region, the implications are enormous. The recent statement by a Chinese general that his country would use nuclear weapons against the United States if the U.S. military intervened in a conflict over Taiwan was a sharp reminder that Taiwan's fate remains one of the region's biggest flash points. Many analysts argue that such confrontation, verbal or otherwise, could lead to a regional arms race culminating in a nuclear Japan.

Japan imports all of its oil, and because much of it passes through the seas surrounding Taiwan, it believes that its survival is dependent on keeping those seas stable. Chinese control of Taiwan could hurt Japan's access to oil, Japan fears.

The United States, which has pledged to defend Taiwan if it is attacked by China, would like to count on Japan's help. During the Cold War, Japan conducted joint operations with the United States to keep Soviet submarines out of the Sea of Japan. The submarines are now Chinese, but the policy toward them is pure containment.

"You can come out as much as you want, unless you do something wrong," said Adm. Koichi Furusho, who served as chief of staff of Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force until January.

This view of China emerged recently in Japan, but Japan's embrace of it is one of the reasons behind the worsening relations between the countries.

During the Cold War, the United States was willing to let Japan remain militarily passive as long as it remained a loyal ally, continued to buy American arms and allowed tens of thousands of U.S. troops to be stationed on Japanese soil.

The Bush administration has pushed Japan to take a more assertive stance. It has called for closer cooperation between the countries' militaries and defense industries and has encouraged conservative Japanese politicians who have long wanted to change the Self-Defense Forces into a full-fledged military and revise Japan's Constitution.

In short order, the Japanese government reinterpreted the Constitution to allow it to dispatch noncombat troops to Iraq and effectively abandoned the decades-old ban against arms exports by joining the American missile defense shield.

Then Japan assumed its familiar role of junior ally to the United States in containment. After China shocked Japan by becoming the third nation to launch a human being into space in late 2003, Japan, which had always regarded such missions as wasteful, recently announced that it would send a Japanese astronaut to the moon within 20 years.

In a major readjustment of its defense policy late last year, Japan redeployed its forces away from northern Japan and the containment of Russia to Okinawa and the containment of China in the East China Sea. Japan's Defense Agency said China was a "concern" because of its nuclear and missile capabilities and the modernization of its navy and air force.

Japan has joined the United States in lobbying the European Union not to lift its arms embargo on China. But the strongest signal yet was Japan's tougher public stance on defending Taiwan against China.

"The joint statement had less to do with Taiwan and more to do with the rise of China, and how Japan and the United States feel a threat from China," said David Huang, Taiwan's vice chairman of mainland affairs. He added: "The joint statement is a signal to China: 'Don't push too far.' "

The United States may see its future rivalry with China as playing out on a global stage. But for Japan, the stage is Asia and the epicenter is around Taiwan.

Most of Japan's oil is shipped through two sea lanes: one directly south of Taiwan and another farther south, which increases the shipping length by two days.

"If you assume conditions are balanced now," said Furusho, the former chief of staff of Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Forces, "they would collapse as soon as Taiwan unifies with China. The sea lanes would turn all red."

For a generation, asserting control over Taiwan has been the most deeply cherished dream of Beijing's politicians. Because so few Chinese still feel ideologically bound to the Communist Party, reuniting Taiwan with mainland China is one of the most important ways to bind the government in Beijing to its public. Standing up to Japan is another, and the two thoughts are increasingly intertwined.

China's leaders have always felt the need to tread carefully in challenging the United States over its security commitments to Taiwan, preferring to bide their time as the Chinese economy grows and its military, particularly its air force and navy, develop into world-class fighting forces. Already, by some estimates, the country has deployed 40 to 60 submarines in the East China Sea, and it is rapidly modernizing this force, acquiring quieter models from Russia and developing increasingly sophisticated nuclear submarines of its own.

But lately, China has shown no patience with Japan and has moved swiftly to warn its neighbor in unusually blunt terms that any interference with Beijing's designs over Taiwan will be dealt with forcefully.

"I would like to say calmly to Japan, 'The Taiwan issue is a domestic affair and a matter of life or death to us,' " Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing sternly told his Japanese counterpart recently. "It is dangerous to touch China's matter of life or death."

Indeed, a potentially explosive tussle between the countries is already being played out over large natural gas reserves and potentially important oil reserves beneath the East China Sea. The two countries disagree over how to draw the maritime dividing line between them in these waters.

China has offered to jointly exploit the energy resources in the area, but Japan has refused. Japan, meanwhile, has asked China to share seismic data and other information, and more recently has unsuccessfully urged Beijing to freeze its plans to begin pumping gas.

Chinese officials refused several requests for comment on the issue, but Chinese legal experts say they worry that the situation could get out of hand. "China has given out warnings many times, using tough words, telling Japan not to take any dangerous actions that could disturb stability in the region," said Xiu Bin, an expert in international maritime law at Ocean University in Qingdao, China.

Tokyo recently upped the ante by granting a Japanese company, Teikoku Oil, the rights to test-drill in disputed waters. China, which is conducting gas projects near the test-drilling areas, immediately protested.

No one watches the face-off between the countries more closely than Taiwan, which also has maritime territorial disputes with Japan but cooperates with Japan and the United States in policing the region's waters.

"They are going to be colliding for the foreseeable future, and I don't see how you can avoid that," said Andrew Nien-Dzu Yang, director of the Chinese Council of Advanced Policy Studies in Taipei, the Taiwanese capital.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/09/11/MNGDGELU7M1.DTL

[IDonT]

ARMED FORCES OF THE WORLD: China, Japan and Their Naval War



September 12, 2005: Recently, a Chinese surface group was detected by a Japanese P-3C in disputed waters near the Senkaku Islands. The group, which consisted of a Sovremenny-class destroyer, two Jianghu I-class missile frigates, a replenishment ship, and a missile observation support ship, was a reasonably powerful force. It does lead to the question: Who would prevail in a fight with Japan over the Senkaku Islands?

Such a battle would primarily involve the navies of both sides. Each operates on a different premise. Japan has a force of destroyers that are highly capable in anti-surface and anti-submarine operations. Japan’s guided missile destroyers are also highly capable anti-air vessels.

Japan has a total of 30 destroyers, nine guided-missile destroyers, and nine frigates. At least two of the older Tachikaze-class guided-missile destroyers will be replaced by the new Atago-class destroyers. Japan also has 16 modern diesel-electric submarines.

The Chinese navy is larger in numbers – carrying 25 destroyers and 45 frigates. However, of these 25 destroyers, 16 are the obsolete Luda class. The same is true for the Chinese frigates – two-thirds of them are the obsolete Jianghu-class ships. These are equipped with antiquated HY-2 missiles, which are copies of the old SS-N-2 Styx – state of the art for 1960. These days, a Styx is an easy kill for any modern surface-to-air missile. China has 65 diesel-electric submarines, but 52 of them are obsolete Romeo and Ming-class submarines. China’s Han-class SSNs are also old and noisy. Again, in terms of modern vessels, China is outnumbered.

Another factor is air cover. The disputed waters are within 300 kilometers of Okinawa. This is easily within the combat radius of the Japanese Air Self-Defense Force’s F-1, F-4EJ Kai, F-15J, and F-2 fighters. Japan has a major air base in Naha, and there is also Kadena Air Force Base, where the United States Air Force keeps a wing of F-15s. The oldest aircraft in service with Japan are the F-4EJ Kais and F-1s – the latter are being replaced by the F-2.

China’s fighters tend to be very old. The only real modern fighters are the J-11 (Russian Su-27) and the Su-30MKK (an Su-27 variant). Japan is almost at parity in terms of numbers (187 F-15J/DJs and 140 F-2s to 380 J-11/Su-30MKK in Chinese service). Japan has superb pilots as well, who get plenty of training. Chinese pilots get less flying time, although they are increasing their training.

Japan also has E-2 and E-767 airborne early warning aircraft that they have years of practice using, while China has only recently acquired Russian A-50 Mainstays.

In a straight naval-air fight over the Senkaku Islands, Japan has an advantage, even if they are on their own. While China is modernizing, Japan is not standing still, modernizing its military and keeping a qualitative edge over its larger neighbor. – Harold C. Hutchison (hchutch@ix.netcom.com)

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=htworld.htm

[Neko]

No doubt Japan would win the Senkakus.

Things that bugs me about it is that it'd make it even harder for the Ryukyu (Okinawans) to get self rule.

[Su-27 Pilot]

ARMED FORCES OF THE WORLD: China, Japan and Their Naval War



September 12, 2005: Recently, a Chinese surface group was detected by a Japanese P-3C in disputed waters near the Senkaku Islands. The group, which consisted of a Sovremenny-class destroyer, two Jianghu I-class missile frigates, a replenishment ship, and a missile observation support ship, was a reasonably powerful force. It does lead to the question: Who would prevail in a fight with Japan over the Senkaku Islands?

Such a battle would primarily involve the navies of both sides. Each operates on a different premise. Japan has a force of destroyers that are highly capable in anti-surface and anti-submarine operations. Japan’s guided missile destroyers are also highly capable anti-air vessels.

Japan has a total of 30 destroyers, nine guided-missile destroyers, and nine frigates. At least two of the older Tachikaze-class guided-missile destroyers will be replaced by the new Atago-class destroyers. Japan also has 16 modern diesel-electric submarines.

The Chinese navy is larger in numbers – carrying 25 destroyers and 45 frigates. However, of these 25 destroyers, 16 are the obsolete Luda class. The same is true for the Chinese frigates – two-thirds of them are the obsolete Jianghu-class ships. These are equipped with antiquated HY-2 missiles, which are copies of the old SS-N-2 Styx – state of the art for 1960. These days, a Styx is an easy kill for any modern surface-to-air missile. China has 65 diesel-electric submarines, but 52 of them are obsolete Romeo and Ming-class submarines. China’s Han-class SSNs are also old and noisy. Again, in terms of modern vessels, China is outnumbered.

Another factor is air cover. The disputed waters are within 300 kilometers of Okinawa. This is easily within the combat radius of the Japanese Air Self-Defense Force’s F-1, F-4EJ Kai, F-15J, and F-2 fighters. Japan has a major air base in Naha, and there is also Kadena Air Force Base, where the United States Air Force keeps a wing of F-15s. The oldest aircraft in service with Japan are the F-4EJ Kais and F-1s – the latter are being replaced by the F-2.

China’s fighters tend to be very old. The only real modern fighters are the J-11 (Russian Su-27) and the Su-30MKK (an Su-27 variant). Japan is almost at parity in terms of numbers (187 F-15J/DJs and 140 F-2s to 380 J-11/Su-30MKK in Chinese service). Japan has superb pilots as well, who get plenty of training. Chinese pilots get less flying time, although they are increasing their training.

Japan also has E-2 and E-767 airborne early warning aircraft that they have years of practice using, while China has only recently acquired Russian A-50 Mainstays.

In a straight naval-air fight over the Senkaku Islands, Japan has an advantage, even if they are on their own. While China is modernizing, Japan is not standing still, modernizing its military and keeping a qualitative edge over its larger neighbor. – Harold C. Hutchison (hchutch@ix.netcom.com)

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=htworld.htm


All good points, and what about during the naval engagement PLA uses medium range cruise missiles against all Japanese Naval and Airfield in the area ??

[MIGleader]

japan would win no doubt. but i dont think their economy would stand it any more. its already doing bad, but without china, it will fail, china dosn't need japan so much. china should also do a good deed and claim some waters for taiwan. if china won the war using unorthodox methods, it might change taiwans view aswell.

[IDonT]

All good points, and what about during the naval engagement PLA uses medium range cruise missiles against all Japanese Naval and Airfield in the area ??


You are escalating the conflict. What is stopping Japan from attacking Chinese bases or invading islands within the Chinese EEZ?

[tphuang]

it continually amazes me that anyone can call that AF a defensive AF. Seriously, Japan doesn't need to change its constitution. It already has a powerhouse military.

[IDonT]

it continually amazes me that anyone can call that AF a defensive AF. Seriously, Japan doesn't need to change its constitution. It already has a powerhouse military.

Actually they do. Japan is locked in to spend only 1% of its GDP on defence. Even at this percentage it is still at 60-90 billion. Imagine if they raise it up to within US levels (3-4% of GDP)

[MIGleader]

i hust highly doubt this incident will start a war, but furthur incidents like it may trigger some conflict.

[TJJH]

There is no point in having a strong military if your economy can't stand going to war with a potential opponent. Just look what happened to the Soviet Union.

[MIGleader]

There is no point in having a strong military if your economy can't stand going to war with a potential opponent. Just look what happened to the Soviet Union.

you saying japans economy cant stand a war, or china's?

if its japan, i agree

[FriedRiceNSpice]

the next time someone posts garbage from strategypage, please write "total bullshit" on top of the leader.

if you're getting info solely from stratpage, you have problems.

I agree. J-8IIs would wipe the sky clean of Jap fighters.

[sino52C]

J-8IIs would wipe the sky clean of Jap fighters.
???

They have F-15Js, which are slightly inferior to the Flankers in Chinese Inventory. It is the FLankers that will wipe the sky clean.

Japan's GDP per capita is among the highest, if not the highest in the world.

[MIGleader]

i guess the flankers are pretty on par with the slightly downgrade f-15 j's. in a navl battle, japn would win hands down.

even if japn won, it would hurt the country in the long run.

[IDonT]

i guess the flankers are pretty on par with the slightly downgrade f-15 j's. in a navl battle, japn would win hands down.

even if japn won, it would hurt the country in the long run.

In an air war you got to remember that the F-15J pilots train constantly with their E-3 support. They have worked out tactics and how best to employ. This will give them an edge. PLAAF AWACS are still to be put into service.

[MIGleader]

the kj-2000 may be used, or a smaller awacs. i'm pretty sure china has already trained some pilots to work with awacs, though they wont be as effective as japns.

chinas one advantage is if it can slip its taiwan marines protected by subs and moderrn destroyers through the kaigun, it can land them in japan pretty easily and gain an upper hand on land.

[Su-27 Pilot]

You are escalating the conflict. What is stopping Japan from attacking Chinese bases or invading islands within the Chinese EEZ?
We are already at war with Japan. So attacking their military installations makes perfect sense. Also PLA should missile key Japanese cities to teach Japan a lesson again.

[Su-27 Pilot]

There is no point in having a strong military if your economy can't stand going to war with a potential opponent. Just look what happened to the Soviet Union.

China's Economy is one of the top in the world. Even US's economy with China will suffer hugely. I think if China can support the largest military in the world and spend so much at modernizing so fast, and still China can support itself with the helpful flow of the world economy for the war.

[IDonT]

the next time someone posts garbage from strategypage, please write "total bullshit" on top of the leader.

if you're getting info solely from stratpage, you have problems.

Point taken about strategy page. Now can you fix your ass holish problem? You are so obnoxious, if you have nothing to add do not post.

[TJJH]

In case anyones wondering, I'm referring to Japan here. It pretty much can't afford to war with anyone but Africa at the moment...

[sumdud]

Could you not read the article? The Chinese ships were on what even the Japanese said was the CHINESE SIDE OF THE ISLAND CHAIN! If the Japanese attacked a Chinese ship on Chinese territory without any provacation (and Chinese ships sailing on their own territory DOES NOT COUNT), then there will be NO WAY IN HELL that the US will back Japan! You never know if the USA will help Japan, just make a reason. Look at Vietnam.

But if the Japanese do commit war, don't go attack the ships at sea. Send a few to follow them, but don't attack them. Attack the ports, the islands instead, and see who will win.

BTW, Japan has E-767s, not E-3s.

[Lavi]

I believe that a lot of countries fear China, and especially the possibility that China could become SEA's strongest superpower, these include Taiwan (obviously), Japan, South Korea, India and the USA. If these join togheter in some kind of a 'anti-Chinese alliance', then China will have a hard time. Especially Japan has started to become more aggressive towards China and friendlier towards Taiwan, these two joining in a U.S. backed alliance already could be quite a threat to China, and then we have India sitting at the 'backdoor'.

The Japanese Self-Defence Forces are also undergoing a quite rapid (and expensive) modernisation, and now with Koizumi re-elected they might drop the 'Self'-part and become 'ordinary' defence forces. Japan already has a navy that is both modern and guite large, a very god air force, and good fround forces.

Also: China has never forgotten the Japanese attack in the 30's and what the Japanese did then and in WWII, and Japan knows this very well.

[Mr_C]

Dear Friends
I as a Chinese dude have great respect for all cultures including the Japanese. In fact I admire various aspects of Japanese culture. Indeed Japan ahs a very modern and capable military, i have heard great things abt them but i was rather disappointed to witness their poor strategic and tactic performance. The first although not military... was a japanese police SWAT equalvalent (can't spell) execution of a hostage rescue, from memory it ended with dead hostages.. it was very poorly executed. Another was the response to a Ming class submarine that was able to penetrate japanese defences. The response was a kongo class shooting metal boxes with its gun. The ship indeed was excellent but it also shows the lack of strategic creativity of the Japanese. Lastly the recent deployment of Japanese soldiers to Iraq also demonstrates their immaturity as combatants coz who the hell has a flag badge on the front of ur helmet, the back of ur helmet, the front of ur shirt, the back of ur shirt and on the arm. And a huge flag on the side of ur vehicles which stands out like dogsh*t. Also i remember the japanese soldiers making all these poses for the local news with their equipment. Only an inexperience military make such silly poses.

The PLA however although have not fought a war for 20yrs seems to have passed on their experience to the current generation which is demonstrated in the execution of their jobs.

Correct if i am wrong but this is just my strategic point of view.

[Lavi]

Hmm... China seems to be on the move:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/china-raises-stakes-in-japan-oil-row/2005/10/03/1128191658054.html

Short summary: a PLAN ship has trained its gun towards a low-flying JASDF P-3 who was taking a closer look at the ship and a bunch of other PLAN ships that also where there.

This is quite aggressive, the Japanese are a very proud people (as are the Chinese) and they probably wont tolerate that the PLAN moves around, waving with their guns, in water they think is theirs (ANY country would be upset by that...).

[Mr_C]

It is a great shame that most people from these 2 cultures have forgotten their great friendship for more than a thousand yrs. It is only during the last 200 yrs that we began to hate each other. It is much better to have Japan as a friend than an enemy. At least the majority of everyday people from these 2 cultures are not hostile to each other.

[MIGleader]

Hmm... China seems to be on the move:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/china-raises-stakes-in-japan-oil-row/2005/10/03/1128191658054.html

Short summary: a PLAN ship has trained its gun towards a low-flying JASDF P-3 who was taking a closer look at the ship and a bunch of other PLAN ships that also where there.

This is quite aggressive, the Japanese are a very proud people (as are the Chinese) and they probably wont tolerate that the PLAN moves around, waving with their guns, in water they think is theirs (ANY country would be upset by that...).


its gun? withc gun? an ak-630? both countries claim the waters, so both have legal rights to move force their. the chinese kade the first move

mr.c, the chinese an japanese will bnever be frinds, naot afeter ww2

[vincelee]

Point taken about strategy page. Now can you fix your ass holish problem? You are so obnoxious, if you have nothing to add do not post.


if I have nothing to add? That's actually pretty damned funny, considering that you probably don't have an engineering background.

[Lavi]

Japan and China being friends forever until the last 200 years? What about the Mongol/Chinese invasion attempts of 1274 and 1281? And before you start claiming that the Mongols aren't Chinese I would like to point out that that is completly the opposite to what many people stated in another thread at this forum.

[IDonT]

Japan and China being friends forever until the last 200 years? What about the Mongol/Chinese invasion attempts of 1274 and 1281? And before you start claiming that the Mongols aren't Chinese I would like to point out that that is completly the opposite to what many people stated in another thread at this forum.


And don't forget Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea in 1500. It was Korea + China vs Japan.

[SampanViking]

Back to original topic........

I think you have all misunderstood the prescence of the Chinese Warships in the Gas Fields. This is not China threatening Japan, it is China sending a statement to the Japanese following Japanese allegations of Chinese Directional Drilling into and Gas theft from, the Energy fields on the "Japanese" side of the line.

If this ever got "hot" China and Japan would announce exclusion zones of whatever proportions, and try to Police them in such a manner that the other side has to shoot first and prefferably in Ocean they do not normally claim to control.

There can be a lot of tension and face offs without anything more than a warning shot being fired. US would not seek to get "directly" involved but would publicly re-affirm its commitment to Japanese territorial integrity.

PS China and Japan are working frantically behind the scenes to agree a joint exploration and exploitation deal for these fields. Much of this sabre rattling is just negotiaition method.

[Mr_C]

Japan and China being friends forever until the last 200 years? What about the Mongol/Chinese invasion attempts of 1274 and 1281? And before you start claiming that the Mongols aren't Chinese I would like to point out that that is completly the opposite to what many people stated in another thread at this forum.

True.. the Mongols have become part of Chinese society and all Han Chinese people admire the acheivements of Kenghis Khan and Kublai Khan. One must understand Asian history in its entirity. True the Yuan Dynasty tried to invade Japan, however it is only 7 years in a 2000 yr period.

And don't forget Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea in 1500. It was Korea + China vs Japan.

Toyotomi Hideoyoshi's invasion took place during the Seng Ku Ju Dai. He was looking for more resources to fuel his campaign against the other Diamyos. Also it was only a very short time it Our 2000 yrs of history.

mr.c, the chinese an japanese will bnever be frinds, naot afeter ww2

They can be friends... its just a question of how.
The teacher of a young prince of the Qin Kingdom told his student "When there is mutual interest people will be friends, when people don't get into each others' way they will still be friends, when people have conflicting agendas they will become enemies".

[Fairthought]

Hideyoshi Invaded China, make no mistake about it. Korea was merely a vassal state belonging to the Chinese Emperor. The war lasted over two shogunates and ~20 years. There was no daimyo rivalry in Japan at the time. All power was consolidated and Japan wanted to march into Beijing through Korea so that Hideyoshi could crown himself emperor of the whole universe, as he knew it. It was foolish of Hideyoshi to believe that if Beijing fell, he would acquire the whole of the Chinese Empire. But he couldn't resist the chance. it is believed he negotiated secret alliances with the Manchurian tribes to the north.

The japanese believed their superiority in the use of gunpowder weapons for every soldier would assure victory. But they got held up by heavily fortified resistance in Pyongyong. ultimately the Chinese imperial navy decimated the japanese navy and the Japanese had to abandon their whole campaign. After that Japan turned inwards for the next three centuries. Their belief that expansion into China was impossible led them to isolationist policies. The shoguns feared if the masses remained armed with firearms they would loose power. Japanese gunpowdered weapons were abandoned in favor of the more aristocratic weapons of sword and bow. Japan's class system became more rigid, more caste-like.

Three hundred years later, Japan reawakened their long held dream of conquering China. In the early 1900's, they ventured forth on the belief the superiority of their military weapons would assure victory. They went considerably farther than korea, but the end was the same. since japan's defeat in WWII, Japan became a pacifist nation.

If history is any guide, it is a certainty that japan would invade China again if they sensed they had the capability. Why does japan keep picking on China? It is a matter of geography. Japan has nowhere else to go for expansion. They must go into China, through Korea. Also, Japan has traditionally been ruled by a militaristic form of govenrment (kinda like Sparta). Hopefully, Japan's current American-styled government have abandoned their expansionist attitudes. Considering the example America is currently setting, things don't look very good.

[Mr_C]

Lovely and informing historical facts. But however correct me if i am wrong. Hideyoshi was never Shogun, therefore power was not centralised. Tokugawa Ieyusa was the man who became shogun after Hideyoshi's death. But either way, i do agree with u that Japan had Chinese conquest desires. Infact historically the countries in Asia beleived that if they could conqueor China, they will be powerful enough to conqouer the world. Which was true to a certain extend back in those days since China was the most power nation on Earth. As demonstrated by Kublai Khan, his Golden Horde basically conquered almost all of Asia and Europe. In fact from memory Kenghis Kahn said to his followers "If we can Conquer China, we can conquer the world". Such mentality also explains the Japanese foolish presistance in trying to control central China during WW2.

Also i met a old Japanese man once, he is a nice man. He said during the WW2 he was in primary school. The teacher gave the entire class an apple. The students including himself all ate the apple in a happy kiddy way. After they finished the teacher will ask the students "did the apple taste good"? The students will naturally reply "yes". Then the teacher will ask them "where did the apple come from"? Firstly the kids have no idea, then the teacher will tell them the answer "The apple came from China".

[Jeff Head]

"The apple came from China".

Great discussion.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

You are escalating the conflict. What is stopping Japan from attacking Chinese bases or invading islands within the Chinese EEZ?

What do they attack with? Godzilla?

LOL.

Thanks for the laugh IDonT.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

What do they attack with? Godzilla?

LOL.

Thanks for the laugh IDonT.


Also i met a old Japanese man once, he is a nice man. He said during the WW2 he was in primary school. The teacher gave the entire class an apple. The students including himself all ate the apple in a happy kiddy way. After they finished the teacher will ask the students "did the apple taste good"? The students will naturally reply "yes". Then the teacher will ask them "where did the apple come from"? Firstly the kids have no idea, then the teacher will tell them the answer "The apple came from China".

Very beautiful. Is the point that the teacher was trying to counter Japanese racism towards China?

[Jeff Head]

What do they attack with? Godzilla?

I would counsel not underestimating the JMSDF. They have, arguably, the second most powerful surface combatant Navy in the world.

And they have a very strong amphibious capability as well.

I believe before 2015 we will see them with a light carrier capability as well.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

I would counsel not underestimating the JMSDF. They have, arguably, the second most powerful surface combatant Navy in the world.

And they have a very strong amphibious capability as well.

I believe before 2015 we will see them with a light carrier capability as well.

They have superior offensive and power-projection capabilities to the PLA. However, they could not overcome the defensive power of the PLA, nor they have stocks of ballistic and cruise missiles like the PLA does.

[MIGleader]

I would counsel not underestimating the JMSDF. They have, arguably, the second most powerful surface combatant Navy in the world.

And they have a very strong amphibious capability as well.

I believe before 2015 we will see them with a light carrier capability as well.

a carrier certainly does not meet the requirements of a defensive navy. it would be seen as an offensive wepon by china and taiwan(no to frindly with japs either). most likely an lpd like sk.

[Jeff Head]

amost likely an lpd like sk.

They already have three of those, with a fourth building

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/images/osumi02_h.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/images/lst-4001_01.jpg

It is my understanding that they are looking at a BTOL, "Helicopter" carrier for the near future. building tow of them I believe.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/images/ddh-new_091l.gif

Clearly capable of JSF operations.

[Sea Skimmer]

It is my understanding that they are looking at a BTOL, "Helicopter" carrier for the near future. building tow of them I believe.


The ships are being called destroyers, but the concept art that's been handed out clearly show a full-length flight deck. They are intended to replace the existing destroyers of the Shirane and Haruna class. Those ships are more or less conventional destroyers, with 5-inch guns and ASROC forward, but a really big helicopter hanger and pad with space for three aircraft aft.

The planned displacement of the new ships is around 13,5 00 tons, with eleven helicopters. So far, only one of the ships has actually been approved and funded for construction, with the lay down date set for 2006. The second ship has been delayed so that money can be directed to other modernization programs.

[bd popeye]

You know that ship #400 has no hangar. It does have a well deck. That LPH type ship in the drawing does have a hangar.

S. Korea is building at least 3 LPH's. They refer to them as LPX...Question is..Where is the PLAN LPH? Or LPD for that matter.:confused:

[Sea Skimmer]

You know that ship #400 has no hangar. It does have a well deck. That LPH type ship in the drawing does have a hangar.

S. Korea is building at least 3 LPH's. They refer to them as LPX...Question is..Where is the PLAN LPH? Or LPD for that matter.:confused:

Since China isn't realistically interested in invading Taiwan, and their navy is way below the army and air force in funding, they just aren’t interested in building a big one I’d assume. They do have a couple modern, if modest amphibious ships, which are presumably enough for day to day stuff, like hauling equipment to the Spratly islands.

Now as for why South Korea is building them... that has me head scratching a bit; they are putting a whole lot of money into long range and expeditionary capabilities, since North Korea just isn't a threat in any way except its NBC weapons. I suppose they do have some islands they might want to have the capability to retake, and they might be interested in joining into international operations, shit like Bosnia and that sort of thing, which would gain the ma great deal of prestige and political capital. Japan’s gator vessels make sense defensively, since there are only a few easily destroyed connections between the major home islands.

[Mao23]

Quote:
What are you talking about? The US would stay in Japan and fight the Chinese to help defend Japan! OK, so it was China's before, but oh well, Japan invaded it and the Chinese didn't realize that it was origanlly apart of China until the 70's! They didn't even know it was their island! .

the US aren't gonna stay and help the japanese. they don't want to get killed for something that is not theirs.

[MIGleader]

the kive class to an extent can be thougt of as lpds...they can haul helicopters. but they also haul vtols and more missles than u can imagine.

china can convert its kievs to lpds, but leave out the missles. but the best way is to make its own. not to hard at all.

[Gollevainen]

the kive class to an extent can be thougt of as lpds...they can haul helicopters. but they also haul vtols and more missles than u can imagine. .


By kive class i'm sure you mean Kiev class? Kievs can no way be tought as an amphibious ship of any kind. Not whit or whit out it's missiles...You see the most important factor for amph. ships is the capapility to support and transport troops and equipment...now whit Kiev class, where did you plan to do it? In the hangar? You see Kievs have way too small hangar to theyr size at the begining (130 X 22 m) and if you take way of that to troops, there's no left for any helo to transport them...Kievs are at best just ASW ships but more to be counted as an experimental aviation ships...and no way of any use any more to even China...

[MIGleader]

you realize the kievs have alot of potential room for helos and troops if you take out the missles, right?

but your right, thay still are 1970's crap. i dont know why china has not built a lpd yet, both japan and sk have them or are building them, so they have excuse to complain. china cetainly is capable of making an lpd, so why not?

[Gollevainen]

No they dont have. You just dont make ships that way, when some profesional shipbuilder says its posible and shows some scetches to prove it, i will buy it. Other wise... even whit one year of constructive studies, i can tell that much...you just dont make ships that way...

[Sczepan]

...Kievs are at best just ASW ships but more to be counted as an experimental aviation ships...and no way of any use any more to even China...they would be great escort ships in CBGs - but thats another topic

[Mr_C]

Very beautiful. Is the point that the teacher was trying to counter Japanese racism towards China?

No it was the Japanese's Syllabus justification to invade China. Because i forgot to type the last words of the teacher. The teacher said "The apple came from China". The teacher then ask the class "Do u want another apple"? The children will usually reply "Yes". The teacher will smile and say "Then we will have to go to China to get the apple".

Education is truely lovely

you realize the kievs have alot of potential room for helos and troops if you take out the missles, right?

but your right, thay still are 1970's crap. i dont know why china has not built a lpd yet, both japan and sk have them or are building them, so they have excuse to complain. china cetainly is capable of making an lpd, so why not?

Strategically speaking, the Chinese are extremely patient and prudent in their strategic planning and seldom rushes anything just because there is a desire for a peice of equipment. Things are always quite and subtle and then they just pop out and comes into existence. And usually when things pop out, it usually serves a specific purpose in their greater strategic scheme of things and a precursor to their ultimate objective. Chinese... patience, West.......rushes.

[MIGleader]

Strategically speaking, the Chinese are extremely patient and prudent in their strategic planning and seldom rushes anything just because there is a desire for a peice of equipment. Things are always quite and subtle and then they just pop out and comes into existence. And usually when things pop out, it usually serves a specific purpose in their greater strategic scheme of things and a precursor to their ultimate objective. Chinese... patience, West.......rushes.

no, the indians are the best at rushing things.
well, if china wants to catch up, it needs to do so fast.

[sumdud]

If I am right, didn't Japan change its military doctrine from "self-defence" to "regional security"?

--------
It is a great shame that most people from these 2 cultures have forgotten their great friendship for more than a thousand yrs. It is only during the last 200 yrs that we began to hate each other. It is much better to have Japan as a friend than an enemy. At least the majority of everyday people from these 2 cultures are not hostile to each other.
Yes.........*sigh*

[Jeff Head]

It is much better to have Japan as a friend than an enemy. Yes.........*sigh*

Irrespective of what else might be said, the greatest example of turning former enemies into strong and productive allies is the US. Germany, Japan, Spain...even England. All were mortal enemies to the US at one time or another, now they are among the US's strongest allies.

There are others at various stages along that path.

How long that will hold is yet to be seen. But it is nevertheless the facts of the matter at this point in history.

[bd popeye]

Irrespective of what else might be said, the greatest example of turning former enemies into strong and productive allies is the US. Germany, Japan, Spain...even England. All were mortal enemies to the US at one time or another. They and many more are now among their strongest allies.

How long that will hold is yet to be seen. But it is nevertheless the facts of the matter at this point in history.

My son that's in the Navy has trained numerous JMSDF sailors on advanced sonar. He says those fellows are squared away. And the JMSDF has almost the same ASW capablity as the USN.

The JMSDF is very capable.

[Lavi]

The thing is that if a conflict between Japan and China would beocme a full-scale war, neither one would probably be able to invade the mainland of the other one. This means that they would fight using only air and sea assets, which are the areas where Japan has the better assets.

[Jeff Head]

He says those fellows are squared away. The JMSDF is very capable.

Yes...arguably the second most powerful navy in the world at this time.

[MIGleader]

well, isalnd nations do need huge navies to protect themselves. but lpds...definitly not something of a defensive nation. also, if china builds an lpd, thet would mean japan has no right to complain.

[Lavi]

Well MIGleader, the world doesn't work that way ;) Any time someone builds something that there is an even remotly chance that it can be used against someone else, that 'someone else' will start quarreling and claiming that it is an aggressive act. Although I agree that some of the ampphibious assets in the region seems a bit unneccesary...

[MIGleader]

Well MIGleader, the world doesn't work that way ;) Any time someone builds something that there is an even remotly chance that it can be used against someone else, that 'someone else' will start quarreling and claiming that it is an aggressive act. Although I agree that some of the ampphibious assets in the region seems a bit unneccesary...

both japan and sk operate or plan to lpds. and the japnese and koreans have aegis warships too. they cant really complain. i dont either would want to, becaue of their extensive economic realations with china.

taiwan might complain, but whod care?

[Fairthought]

Currently, Japan has the second strongest navy in the world. Behind only the US. Unless of course you are including nuclear options in your naval comparisons. In that case China, India, Russia, Britain, France, and even Israel have a strategic naval superiority over Japan.

But if you presume nukes are for deterrrence only, then Japan has the second strongest navy in the world. Japan has a large surface fleet, some of the best naval technology, and extremely well trained crews. Don't let the innocuous name 'self-defence force' fool you.

China's navy is still in a massive transition phase. They have recently retired all their Whiskey class submarines, and are still phasing out large numbers of Romeo class submarines. These old noisy obsolete subs are worthless in attack, but they do provide China with patrol services and require diversion of enemy resources for tracking. As China continues to replace them with new advanced subs, China's submarine fleet has grown smaller and more lethal. There is no actual naval buildup in terms of numbers. China's fleet is actually shrinking. But once the old junk is completely decommissioned (in about ten years) there will be a buildup, and it will be of a very potent variety.

[Jeff Head]

There is no actual naval buildup in terms of numbers. China's fleet is actually shrinking. But once the old junk is completely decommissioned (in about ten years) there will be a buildup, and it will be of a very potent variety.

In terms of raw number, this is true. In terms of actual, ongoing shipbuilding, the PLAN is building more rapidly than any other country at this time, and perhaps more rapidly than at any time since World War II.

[Lavi]

both japan and sk operate or plan to lpds. and the japnese and koreans have aegis warships too. they cant really complain. i dont either would want to, becaue of their extensive economic realations with china.

taiwan might complain, but whod care?

That's exactly what I meant, Japan I can understand, being an island nation means that it might be good to make amphibious landings, but South Korea? Maybe planing a new Inchon-landing in case of war with the DPRK? Btw I don't think South Korea has any Aegis-ships.

[IDonT]

That's exactly what I meant, Japan I can understand, being an island nation means that it might be good to make amphibious landings, but South Korea? Maybe planing a new Inchon-landing in case of war with the DPRK? Btw I don't think South Korea has any Aegis-ships.


Not yet, but the up coming KDX III will have aegis.

http://www.jjma.com/Documents/Services/ShipDesign/intnat/skorea_kdx3.htm

[Jeff Head]

I don't think South Korea has any Aegis-ships.

Not yet...but they are coming. Right now the best is the KDX-II class, of which they have three Here's a pic.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/images/kdx2-1.jpg

But trhe KDX-III class is already building, the first to be completed in 2008, and they will be very similar to the Japanese Kongo class, and the Flight IIa Burkes. Here's a pic of that design (clicking on that pic will take you to a link describing the design).

http://www.jjma.com/Documents/Services/ShipDesign/intnat/kdx3.jpg (http://www.jjma.com/Documents/Services/ShipDesign/intnat/skorea_kdx3.htm)

[adeptitus]

Currently, Japan has the second strongest navy in the world. Behind only the US. Unless of course you are including nuclear options in your naval comparisons. In that case China, India, Russia, Britain, France, and even Israel have a strategic naval superiority over Japan.

But if you presume nukes are for deterrrence only, then Japan has the second strongest navy in the world. Japan has a large surface fleet, some of the best naval technology, and extremely well trained crews. Don't let the innocuous name 'self-defence force' fool you.


I'm curious to know why you guys think Japan has the 2nd most powerful navy after the USN? Briton's Royal Navy has far better power projection capability and recent/modern battle experience.

[Jeff Head]

I'm curious to know why you guys think Japan has the 2nd most powerful navy after the USN?

Well, I wasn't really talking in terms of total force projection with carriers, just in terms of their DDG fleet. I base my comments on the testimony of a number of US sailors that I know who have conducted exercises with both, and on the makeup of their surface combatant fleet.

Short of the Invincible class, the JMSDF combatants are more powerful, more numberous, and IMHO, more capable.

I believe the Osumi amphibs are the equal of the single Ocean and two planned Albions because they too are new and there are more of them (3 now and a total of six planned), even if they are smaller.

Once the JMSDF launches and commissions its DDH carriers, and potentially places the JSF on them, they will catch up in the carrier area as well...at least of course unti the two large UK carriers come on line.

Here's another good pic of the Osumi class:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/images/osumi07_h.jpg

[bd popeye]

I'm curious to know why you guys think Japan has the 2nd most powerful navy after the USN?

Excellent ships. Well trained crews. Like my son(active duty USN sonar tech) says. "Those dudes are squared away" He has had them in his class room teaching them advanced sonar technology. They have the lateet equipment. They constantly operate their ships. They make frequent trips to the US mainland, Guam and Hawaii for training. My son's says their ships are "squared away. They are clean and are in excellent operating condition according to most accounts.

I'm not sure but numbers wise don't they have the second largest navy in the world??

Plus they have P-3's patrolling the sea.

[IDonT]

They have the 2nd navy and WHAT? You think they are able to invade China mainland again. Sorry, noway even US are not able to do it. China is not Irak!

If they try to invade China, it will be very easy wipe them all from the surface of the Earth. Just explode a nuclear missile above their heads!!! Where are the 2nd fleet :D:D :D


There was no discussion about whether Japan will invade the Chinese mainland. SO calm down.

JMSDF do have the capability to invade those disputed islands near Taiwan and have a credible capability to stop a Chinese effort to reoccupy those islands.

Escalating to nuclear weapons is irrational.

[adeptitus]

CG of new Japanese DDH:
http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2005-10-11/20800.htm

The British Royal Navy today still has 2 x 20,000 ton Invincible Class carriers (after HMS Invincible decommissioned this year), and are planning to replace them with 2 x 60,000 ton carriers in 2012 and 2015:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_CVF_programme

If you guys think the Japaneses sailors are "squared away", wouldn't you think the British ones are just as good?

Comparisons between Japanese & British Navy:
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/europe/uk.htm
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/asiapac/japan.htm

IMO the European PAAMS system w/Aster missiles is just as good, if not better than the Aegis system installed on Kongo. Since the Europeans designed the PAAMS system, we can assume that they're using the best production variants. If the Japanese are purchasing or licensing US systems, I suspect they're getting a downgraded variant.

[Jeff Head]

If you guys think the Japaneses sailors are "squared away", wouldn't you think the British ones are just as good?

The British are good, no doubt whatsoever. Just expressed my own opinion that the JMSDF was arguably the 2nd most powerful Navy today. I still believe that when comparing their pure surface combatants...no doubt whatsoever, in my opinion.

But, that's all it is, just my opinion. Differing opinions and the discussion of such is welcome.

My own personal opinion is that the AEGIS system, as it is continuously developed with new features and capabilities (ie. the latest of which included TBM defense) is the best naval air defense system on the planet.

I have gone so far as to recommend that they consider taking the VLS cellls, packaging them for land launch, and then mating them to more powerful ground based PAR systems and E-3 Sentinels to provide a great land based, 2nd tier defense system around major cities and bases to compliment the longer range ballistic missile defenses going into Alaska right now, and later into the Dakotas

Stay on topic.......

[bd popeye]

My own personal opinion is that the AEGIS system, as it is continuously developed with new features and capabilities (ie. the latest of which included TBM defense) is the best naval air defense system on the planet.

I agree with that statement. Did you know that immediatley after 9/11 Aegis ships were positioned on both coast of the US for air defense? Also did you know that since 9/11 Aegis ships only turm off their systems when in the shipyard for overhaul(refit)??? The system is so flexible and is constanly being upgraded.

Stay on topic.......

[Jeff Head]

the system is so flexible and is constanly being upgraded.

They are going to have an AEGIS vessel situated in the Sea of Japan to take shots at any NKOR craziness too. The TBM capability is impressive. Three or four AEGIS vessels will be able to provide a layer of that type of defense to the whole west coast.

Not to mention its continuing vaunted conventional service as the defender of the fleet...and the carriers.

[MIGleader]

yup, aegis is a great system. and the chinese stole it. i hope they can keep upgrading the stolen tech.
the kaigun has some of the best silors in the world, 140 state of art warships, moder subs(not to many) and lpds...which may not be so defensive. the somewhat even the floor, china needs more advanced subs, facs , and most of all, a full carrier.
but china can also rely on the help of the russian pacific fleet for help against japan. and the chinese can sink the jap navy simply with money

Proof?

[MIGleader]

Yea thanks to Bubba Clinton!

Say does anyone know how well the PLAN Ageis may work? How much tech did they really get? I think they got some.

im pretty sure they got the about 70% of modern aegis use. they already have some experince in advenced softwares and filled in the gaps. they may be developing a system based on the stolen aegis right now.

[Raven]

Someone mentioned that the UK Navy is more powerful than the Chinese and Japanese Navies. I beg to disagree. Firstly, the PLAN matching ship type against ship type I think is in better shape. The PLAN has a mix of weapons from ciws type cannons to SSM and SAM and their associated systems. The UK Navy is slowly dying. In fact, the 1983 Falklands War was a rout. The UK Navy lost a number of ships,sailors and equipment. In fact, had the Argentine AF and Navy used proper weapons, more UK ships would have been destroyed. The UK got lucky that many bombs which hit it's ships simply pasted thru the ships or bounced off of them.

The PLAN I has the excellent Kilo Class SSKs and while the Royal Navy does maintain and excellent fleet of boats and training crews, they like the US Navy would be out numbered. As for the surface forces, the UK Navy does not have large DD/DDG type warships able go toe to toe with the PLAN. I think even the PLAN FFGs match or surpass the over the horizon capability of the UK destroyers and corvettes.

As for the PLAN Air Force, they would have no problem dealing with the Fleet Air Arm, which is losing deadicated fleet defense fighters (FA2s) and the AIM120 capabilities they bring to bare. I think the H6s would be a major threat as would various air,surface and subsurface launched ASMs.

[Su-27 Pilot]

The USN out numbers the PLAN.

In Modern warfare # plays a minor role. PLAN will catch up the tech gap with the USN.

[Sea Dog]

before anyone start talking about how the Chinese stole AEGIS, go take a signal processing class and a semiconductor class.

I agree. I think it would be impossible to steal the entire technology behind AEGIS. It is quite likely that Chinese front companies were able to steal some of it though and incorporate it into their own crude designs. Chinese "AEGIS" wanna-be ships will never be as capable as American designs. There is so much built into the AEGIS architecture. And this technology is spread too far and wide throughout the U.S. defense infrastructure. You can't steal your way to the top.

The PLAN has shown alot of improvement, but they are barely trying to get "AEGIS" type of ships. IT takes years to make these things work, and get crews trained to force levels adequate to tackle real world naval missions. The USN has tens of millions of man-hours in experience in running these types of ships. I personally don't think the PLAN will ever catch up.

AND BTW, the USN will incorporate technologies beyond AEGIS with the new CGX and DDX designs. What most people forget when they talk of PLAN, is that the U.S. is not standing still. They're still moving forward very rapidly also.

Never?

[Sea Dog]

USN is one. A joint multi-national navy is another one. A future Russo-sino navy is one too.......if the future allows.....

:p The USN and the UK are like brothers. No threat for UK carriers there.

No such thing as a multi-national navy.

Russia-Sino navy is a pipe-dream.......and here you're what-iffing the future. So my point stands. UK carriers aren't in any danger whatsoever.

[IDonT]

Someone mentioned that the UK Navy is more powerful than the Chinese and Japanese Navies. I beg to disagree. Firstly, the PLAN matching ship type against ship type I think is in better shape. The PLAN has a mix of weapons from ciws type cannons to SSM and SAM and their associated systems. The UK Navy is slowly dying. In fact, the 1983 Falklands War was a rout. The UK Navy lost a number of ships,sailors and equipment. In fact, had the Argentine AF and Navy used proper weapons, more UK ships would have been destroyed. The UK got lucky that many bombs which hit it's ships simply pasted thru the ships or bounced off of them.

The PLAN I has the excellent Kilo Class SSKs and while the Royal Navy does maintain and excellent fleet of boats and training crews, they like the US Navy would be out numbered. As for the surface forces, the UK Navy does not have large DD/DDG type warships able go toe to toe with the PLAN. I think even the PLAN FFGs match or surpass the over the horizon capability of the UK destroyers and corvettes.

As for the PLAN Air Force, they would have no problem dealing with the Fleet Air Arm, which is losing deadicated fleet defense fighters (FA2s) and the AIM120 capabilities they bring to bare. I think the H6s would be a major threat as would various air,surface and subsurface launched ASMs.


I'm sorry but you are wrong.

PLAN AAW and ASW capability is lacking. Most of the SAMS are crotale except for the Sovs, 052B, and 052C. Modern ASW warfare is non-existant.

The UK won and re-captured the Falkland Islands, they lost around 5 ships in doing so.

RN has 4 Astute Class and 7 Trafalgar Class SSN's are comparable to Improve LA Class subs. PLAN does not have the capability to effectively prosecute these subs with out suffering catastrophic losses.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/astute/
IT is armed with tomahawk cruise missiles and spearfish torpedoes.

RN has 14 type 23 Frigates
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/t23/

8 Type 42 Destroyers.

Planning to acquire 12 of the new Horizon Class DDG, aremd with PAAMS and Aster 30.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/horizon/

Plus 2 new CVF that they are building. PLAN is out match.

[adeptitus]

Someone mentioned that the UK Navy is more powerful than the Chinese and Japanese Navies. I beg to disagree. Firstly, the PLAN matching ship type against ship type I think is in better shape. The PLAN has a mix of weapons from ciws type cannons to SSM and SAM and their associated systems. The UK Navy is slowly dying. In fact, the 1983 Falklands War was a rout. The UK Navy lost a number of ships,sailors and equipment. In fact, had the Argentine AF and Navy used proper weapons, more UK ships would have been destroyed. The UK got lucky that many bombs which hit it's ships simply pasted thru the ships or bounced off of them.


Upcoming RN acquisitions from 2005 - 2015:
2x 60,00 ton Aircraft Carriers
4x 16,000 ton Largs Bay Class amphibious transports
4x 7,200 ton Astute class nuclear powered attack submarines
12x 7,200 ton Daring Class (Type 45) Frigates's with European designed air defense system (SAMPSON, PAAMS, Sylver VLS, Aster 15/30).

So what makes you think the Royal Navy is slowly dying? They won the Falklands war and I think everyone here would agree that the RN is far more powerful than the Argentine Navy today.

By 2015 the RN will be operating 2x 60,000 ton A/C's with JSX and possibly carrier version of Eurofighter, protected by Type 45 Frigates. The Royal Navy's power projection capability in 2015 will be a lot stronger than the 20,000 ton Invincible class A/C's in service today.

[Sea Dog]

[QUOTE=Sea Dog]:p The USN and the UK are like brothers. QUOTE]

In the world Every man is for himself.

You obviously don't understand Western philosophy or the situation between our two nations. The USA and the UK will always have an economic and military bond. Chinese philosophy doesn't quite cut it in this situation.

[Jeff Head]

I think this thread has gone way off

Well, then here. Let's try and get it back on target. In a few short years...these Japanese ships may be spotted...two of them.

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-10-11/815841_001063171.jpg

Probably escorted by a Kongo and othjer JMSDF DDGs.

[Su-27 Pilot]

Well, then here. Let's try and get it back on target. In a few short years...these Japanese ships may be spotted...two of them.

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-10-11/815841_001063171.jpg

Probably escorted by a Kongo and othjer JMSDF DDGs.

When will those Japanese have their own true naval forces call NAVY instead of naval self-defense corp.
Us military occupationl will be there for how long? As long as Japan exists ?? As long as the US wishes or Japan Wishes ??

[Jeff Head]

When will those Japanese have their own true naval forces call NAVY instead of naval self-defense corp.

That is up to the Japanese people and their constitution.

Us military occupationl will be there for how long? As long as Japan exists ?? As long as the US wishes or Japan Wishes ??

Well, I certainly wouldn't call the current situation any kind of occupation. The US maintains a presence in Japan at a few bases...and that will go on as long as the Japanese people want it to I imagine, just like with the first question.

Right now the US and the Japanese are pretty strong allies.

[bd popeye]

Well, then here. Let's try and get it back on target. In a few short years...these Japanese ships may be spotted...two of them.

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-10-11/815841_001063171.jpg

Probably escorted by a Kongo and other JMSDF DDGs.

Now that's some stealth. I've seen that little red x as a ship several times thogh. Must be a common design;)

I don't know why that happens with pictures.

Until some of you guys turned into comedieans this was a good thread...Still is..good discussion.

Later this evening I'm going to see if I can ask someone..(my son)...about the Aegis system on JMSDF ships. I will let you guys know what he asid.

[Sea Dog]

[QUOTE=Sea Dog]
Just for a break. Back on track here, and I agree on your points on US/UK brotherhood and everything, but do you think US and UK will provide aids to help China's civil/military fields ?? Making China a higher standard nation. Together with China and USA will bring a era of NEW peace and humanity.

First off Su-27 Pilot. I want to apologize to you for my previous post. It sounded sarcastic and combative and I didn't mean to have that tone. It was more a joke. And to your other question, I say yes. I believe the USA and the UK will help China if China cooperates in return. It would benefit us all in the long run. The USA and Chijna already benefit eachother economically. But as long as China proliferates some of her most dangerous weapons to unstable areas of the world, and the Taiwan situation exists, total cooperation is not in the near-term.

Another question you pose. Japan can ask the USA to leave at any time. But they never will. They don't want the USA out.

[Jeff Head]

Now that's some stealth. I've seen that little red x as a ship several times thogh. Must be a common design;)

I don't know why that happens with pictures.

Hmmm...I'm seeing the DDH pic just fine. Try typing in this url---http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2005-10-11/20800.htm and clicking on the pictures

[bd popeye]

I tried that. I can't se that page. Probaly some porn attatched to that website. My computer won't allow any sort of porn to be viewed. I like it like that!

[Jeff Head]

I tried that. I can't se that page. Probaly some porn attatched to that website. My computer won't allow any sort of porn to be viewed. I like it like that!

Oh no...no porn at all. I am a very religious and happily married man and granpa, popeye, believe me when I tell you we agree on that issue.

It's a Chinese web site that hosts lots of military pics. Here's the main URL-http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/index.html.

If there is anything bad there...I haven't seen it. It's all in Chinese.

I will get a copy of that Japanese DDH pic and host it on my own server and post iot so you can see it. Pretty mpressive.

[MIGleader]

I agree. I think it would be impossible to steal the entire technology behind AEGIS. It is quite likely that Chinese front companies were able to steal some of it though and incorporate it into their own crude designs. Chinese "AEGIS" wanna-be ships will never be as capable as American designs. There is so much built into the AEGIS architecture. And this technology is spread too far and wide throughout the U.S. defense infrastructure. You can't steal your way to the top.

The PLAN has shown alot of improvement, but they are barely trying to get "AEGIS" type of ships. IT takes years to make these things work, and get crews trained to force levels adequate to tackle real world naval missions. The USN has tens of millions of man-hours in experience in running these types of ships. I personally don't think the PLAN will ever catch up.

AND BTW, the USN will incorporate technologies beyond AEGIS with the new CGX and DDX designs. What most people forget when they talk of PLAN, is that the U.S. is not standing still. They're still moving forward very rapidly also.

so you think the chinse arnt capable of making a good system from the stolen tech? all they can do is use the basics? you underestimate them. thales probably helped them anyways.
lets say the pla gets 15 points every year
and u.s gets 10
the u.s starts out wit 100 and
the plan gets 30. the plan will catch up eventually.

[Sea Dog]

so you think the chinse arnt capable of making a good system from the stolen tech? all they can do is use the basics? you underestimate them. thales probably helped them anyways.
lets say the pla gets 15 points every year
and u.s gets 10
the u.s starts out wit 100 and
the plan gets 30. the plan will catch up eventually.

At the current pace....not likely. The U.S. is heavily vested in it's own R & D in naval engineering and is currently going beyond AEGIS technology. This leaves PLAN in the dust. And PLAN lacks the actual experience in operating this equipment. The USN has tens of millions of man-hour experience operating this advanced type of hardware. PLAN has zero. PLAN is only trying to copy. And I'm telling you, you just can't copy an AEGIS like ship and throw 250 men on it, and say you have the AEGIS ships. If you think so, you're delusional. The Soviets in their heyday tried to copy tons of U.S. military hardware and failed miserably. They were very successful in their own designs however.

There is alot more to an American AEGIS ship than the missiles, sensors, and software. It is a totally integrated network capable of prosecuting aircraft, missile, surface, sub-surface, land, and ballistic missile targets simultaneously. They have time-sharing management protocols and cooperative engagement utility. Not to mention the integration with C4I. China cannot steal the system, nor can China steal her way to the top. The AEGIS like ships you see China producing now are crude copies of known naval hardware. Just because they have a PAR and missiles in a VLS configuration means nothing. Chinese naval engineering lags pretty far behind as is. I'm not putting down the PLAN, but if you look objectively, they are nowhere near the USA's naval capabilities, and will not catch up anytime soon.

[Sea Dog]

Anytime soon ? NO. I believe give sometime for the PLAN to building its own. Time is the most important factor.

Yeah, but the thing you're not taking into consideration, is the USA is not just sitting still. They are pressing ahead also with newer and better technology all the time. China's trying to copy AEGIS ships. Meanwhile USN is going beyond the most advanced AEGIS technology currently in existence. Wait and see what's in the USN inventory in 2015.

There's no doubt the PLAN is improving. But the US would have to drop the ball for the PLAN to be able to catch up. Do you know how much money goes into US defense infrastructure from various sources?

[vincelee]

just a clarification to IDont, UK is out of the Horizon project because of radar disputes with France/Italy. They are going for SAMPAR instead of EMPAR.

[Jeff Head]

I tried that. I can't se that page.

Here's the pic of how the Japanese DDH will look. I hosted it myself:

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/jeffhead/carriers/jmsdf-ddh.jpg

[IDonT]

just a clarification to IDont, UK is out of the Horizon project because of radar disputes with France/Italy. They are going for SAMPAR instead of EMPAR.


thanks for the heads up, I meant Type 45 destroyers.

[bd popeye]

That Japanese DDH looks interesting. Thanks for posting that picture Jeff. I will have to look it up on line for more information.

The PLAN should be building 6-8 of these type ships. But probaly in the 20,000 ton range.

Now did they call it a DDH because some politicans in Japan did not want to call it a CV or LPH? I think the Japanese consitution limits their naval capality.

That CWIS mounted on the bow looks out of place.

[Jeff Head]

That CWIS mounted on the bow looks out of place.

Well, if they keep the CIWS there on the bow there they surely are not planning any STOLs, only VTOL. But the JSF can handle that too. We shall see. Clearly the DDH designator is a political/legal issue. The thing is clearly a VTOL carrier, either purely helo, or perhaps VTOL fighters at some point.

[MIGleader]

That Japanese DDH looks interesting. Thanks for posting that picture Jeff. I will have to look it up on line for more information.

The PLAN should be building 6-8 of these type ships. But probaly in the 20,000 ton range.

Now did they call it a DDH because some politicans in Japan did not want to call it a CV or LPH? I think the Japanese consitution limits their naval capality.

That CWIS mounted on the bow looks out of place.

DDH=lph
heavy aircraft carrying cruser=aircraft carrier
pocket battleship=battlecrusier
all political reasons.

the forward mounted ciws is for politics too, so no onw will think they plan to operate aircraft.

[Gollevainen]

well if the term LPH comes from 'landing platform helicopters', i wouldnt call DDH as LPH. To my knowlidge, its purely ASW platform so Sea Controll ship migth be more accurate term...

[bd popeye]

DDH=lph
heavy aircraft carrying cruser=aircraft carrier
pocket battleship=battlecrusier
all political reasons.

the forward mounted ciws is for politics too, so no onw will think they plan to operate aircraft

I agree with you about 99%. I'm not sure why that CWIS is mounted that way. It is just a drawing afterall. But MIGleader you could be right.

Any real pics of the construction of those ships like the S.Korean LPX? I have to start using Google instead of Yahoo. I'm missing a lot!

[Jeff Head]

well if the term LPH comes from 'landing platform helicopters', i wouldnt call DDH as LPH. To my knowlidge, its purely ASW platform so Sea Controll ship migth be more accurate term...

I believe DDH was the term to satisfy the Japanese politicians. The JMSDF already has four DDH's and these are billed as the replacement for two of them...but here is what the current DDH looks like:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/images/dd-143-DN-ST-87-09121.jpg

Compared to the new proposal:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/images/ddh-new_091l.gif

[Gollevainen]

yea, we shouldnt look all flat topped 10 tonners as LPHs...

[Jeff Head]

yea, we shouldnt look all flat topped 10 tonners as LPHs...

Now, the French and the Russians operated real, pure helicopter ships.

The French Jeanne d' Arc:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/r-97-jeanne-d-arc-DN-SC-92-04468.jpg

The Russians Moskva

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/moskva-DNST8204653.JPG

[MIGleader]

why does the moskova looked like a red X?

quote:Any real pics of the construction of those ships like the S.Korean LPX? I have to start using Google instead of Yahoo. I'm missing a lot!

well, there is a threa in the world military forum called south koreas naval rearmament with a pic of an lpx.

[Gollevainen]

well Whit LPH, i mean at least some sort of amphibious capapility. Moskva wasent involved to landing operations and De Gaulle was primaly a training ship (thus whit limited ASW and Amph. capabilityes)

proper LPHs are HMS Ocean and USN's Wasp, Tarawa and retired Iwo Jimmas...

[Jeff Head]

why does the moskova looked like a red X?

I fixed it. Look up there again.

well Whit LPH, i mean at least some sort of amphibious capapility....

Agreed. I was just pointing out that those two ships were true Helo carriers and not Amphib, or aircraft (fixed wing) carriers.

[MIGleader]

the japanese DDH proposal=amphibous light carrier
just look at it!! it can clearly handle stols and vtols with ease!
such a ship also would forfit japans complaning rights if chna builds a "DDH"

[Gollevainen]

the japanese DDH proposal=amphibous light carrier
just look at it!! it can clearly handle stols and vtols with ease!
such a ship also would forfit japans complaning rights if chna builds a "DDH"

Moskva and Kiev could both use V/STOL planes (tough the first used them only in testing purpose) but still wheren't able to do any amph. missions. It's not about the aircapapility, but the ability to transport (and store) troops and equipment...those japanese vessels would would be quite crowded if amph. battalion would have to squeese in whit all they equipments...

Anyway i'm bit amaized about this sudden ethusiaism for LPHs...USMC realized that the Iwo Jima class wasen't a complete succes as it relied sole for helicopters. Bad weather is way too limiting factor and also the fact that no heavy equipment could be transported. Therefor the Wasp and Tarawas have docking wells...

[bd popeye]

well, there is a threa in the world military forum called south koreas naval rearmament with a pic of an lpx.

MIGleader I meant to say does anyone have any pics of the JMSDF new DDH uner construction. I can't find any...

[bd popeye]

Anyway i'm bit amaized about this sudden ethusiaism for LPHs...USMC realized that the Iwo Jima class wasen't a complete succes as it relied sole for helicopters. Bad weather is way too limiting factor and also the fact that no heavy equipment could be transported. Therefor the Wasp and Tarawas have docking wells...

So very true. The old Iwo Jima class LPH's were limited severly by there lack of a well deck and there smaller size.

The Tarawa class and Wasp class can are probaly the most capable amphip ships ever built.

USS Wasp LHD-1
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/lhd-1-dvic041.jpg

[MIGleader]

MIGleader I meant to say does anyone have any pics of the JMSDF new DDH uner construction. I can't find any...

im not sure there are any. we dont really have any japenese members.
now, im sure everyone wants to see a plan lph...why has the plan delayed so long anyways? china has a suberb shipbuilding ifrastructure, clearly capable of making lph's. but instead, they build the tank landing ship.

perhaps the plan does not want its neigbors to see it as a threat
but all its neibors have lph's!

[Jeff Head]

So very true.

Popeye...have you seen the brand new French LPH, the first in class Mistral was recently launched?

Here's a link on my new web sie.

FRENCH MISTRAL LPH (http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/worldwideaircraftcarriers/mistral.htm)

It's fairly good size (21,000 tons - bigger than the new South Korean one) and appears very capable.

Until just recently, I did not even know it existed.

[bd popeye]

Jeff I have seen the French Mistral ship. In fact I have a pic of one in my pic files of my computer.

im not sure there are any. we dont really have any japenese members.
now, im sure everyone wants to see a plan lph...why has the plan delayed so long anyways? china has a suberb shipbuilding ifrastructure, clearly capable of making lph's. but instead, they build the tank landing ship.

MIGleadre makes a good point! China can build one. But where is it? Honestly I won't be surprised when it happens.

perhaps the plan does not want its neigbors to see it as a threat
but all its neibors have lph's!

They sure do, Japan, S. Korea and Thialand all have LPH type ships. PRC we China watchers are waiting! Hey maybe that's what in that big blue building at Dialian shipyard!

[Jeff Head]

Jeff I have seen the French Mistral ship. In fact I have a pic of one in my pic files of my computer.

Great...I had not seen it until last week.

PRC we China watchers are waiting! Hey maybe that's what in that big blue building at Dialian shipyard!

I would not be surprised to see them, in the next few years, put more than one unit of both LPH and their own carrier. Once they get going...and they do have a propensity to build two at a time.

[MIGleader]

maybe the plan wants to wait until most of its immediate neighbors obtain lphs, so nobody will complain. of course, taiwan will be crying, but no one will care.

[Jeff Head]

maybe the plan wants to wait until most of its immediate neighbors obtain lphs, so nobody will complain. of course, taiwan will be crying, but no one will care.

Well, even Taiwan already has a large Amphibious assault ship. They got one of the US Austin Class and already have it commissioned. 17,000 ton full load displacement and can carry up to six large helos and more smaller ones.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/lpd-8_040706-n-6551h-003.jpg

[Su-27 Pilot]

Well, even Taiwan already has a large Amphibious assault ship. They got one of the US Austin Class and already have it commissioned. 17,000 ton full load displacement and can carry up to six large helos and more smaller ones.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/lpd-8_040706-n-6551h-003.jpg
Which will fell preys to the PLAN Naval Airforce and PLAAF.

[Jeff Head]

Which will fell preys to the PLAN Naval Airforce and PLAAF.

Perhaps that is true if it comes to war.

Of course, should it come to war, the ROCN feels the same way about PLAN ships.

Let's hope and pray it does not come to that.

[Neko]

That particular ship strikes me as primarily a massive ASW prosecution craft, so it likely won't see much battle without there being sub threats nearby.

Then you again have to consider US involvement in a fight between the two states.

[tphuang]

why would Taiwan need such a huge ship? Are they trying to invade China now? lol.

[Su-27 Pilot]

why would Taiwan need such a huge ship? Are they trying to invade China now? lol.

They try to bully US to fight for their causes of INDEPENDENCE "rolleyes"

[Lavi]

As far as I know there are a lot of strategic islands in the waters around China, and if it comes to a war this will probably be battlegrounds, it probably is there where a Taiwanese amphibious capability will come into the picture. And the ship really is a true amphibious ship, as opposed to sub-hunting carriers like the Garibaldi.

[swimmerXC]

im not sure there are any. we dont really have any japenese members.

isn't jatt japanese?

FRENCH MISTRAL LPH

WOW!!!

Well, even Taiwan already has a large Amphibious assault ship. They got one of the US Austin Class and already have it commissioned. 17,000 ton full load displacement and can carry up to six large helos and more smaller ones.

i can already see CHEN leading the fleet to Shanghai :roll:

LPX Dokdo Korea
http://sig.megapass.net/club/home1/archives/ALBUM/29_photo.gif
http://sig.megapass.net/club/home1/archives/ALBUM/32_photo.gif
http://sig.megapass.net/club/home1/archives/ALBUM/34_photo.gif

[swimmerXC]

cont...
JMSDF'S 13,500t CLASS NEW DDH
http://www.ships-net.co.jp/detl/200107/084l.jpg
http://www.ships-net.co.jp/detl/200107/091l.jpg

[MIGleader]

i can see jsf's flying off the decks of those ships in a few years.:D
naming a ship a certain name is the best way to disguise its mission.
china should start building a large fleet of "lpd's" and "heavy aviation crusiers"
taiwan, japan, and sk have no excuse to complain