Taiwan weapons bill goes from NT$610 billion to NT$6.3 billion

[FuManChu]

Cabinet approves new procurement budget for weapons (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/06/15/2003313649)

The Cabinet yesterday proposed a new weapons procurement budget totaling NT$6.3 billion (US$197 million).

"We made some changes in response to lawmakers' and the public's requests. We also hope that the Ministry of National Defense will continue to negotiate with lawmakers and try to approve this new proposal as soon as possible," Government Information Office Minister and Cabinet Spokesman Cheng Wen-tsang (鄭文燦) said during a press conference shortly after the weekly Cabinet meeting.

A special arms procurement budget worth NT$610.8 billion -- including 384 Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) missiles, 12 P-3C maritime patrol aircraft and eight diesel power submarines -- was proposed two years ago but has been stalled in the legislature. Opposition lawmakers complained that the weaponry cost too much.

The ministry tried to get the budget passed by amending its proposal three times -- reducing the request to NT$590 billion, then NT$480 billion and now NT$6.3 billion. However, Cheng said the NT$6.3 billion request will not just pay for new weapons. In the new proposal, the plan to buy eight submarines has become "the evaluation to buy diesel submarines;" the plan to buy PAC-3 missiles has become "the upgrade of the remaining PAC-2 system." The plan to buy the P-3C aircraft remains as it was in the original.

The revised budget would also cover the cost of building a runway on Taiping Island (太平島), the southernmost point of Taiwan's territory.

Cheng said Taipei Mayor Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九), who is also chairman of the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT), was present at the Cabinet meeting and was asked by Premier Su Tseng-chang (蘇貞昌) to comment on the revised proposal.

Ma "did not make any comment during the meeting," Cheng said. Cheng said the country needed to be able to defend itself to make sure that its 23 million citizens were secure. "It is our hope that the legislature would see and comprehend the efforts that we have made here and help us on this one," he said.

I thought this might be news-worthy, as they've really cut the budget down. I suppose upgrading PAC-2 batteries to PAC-3 standard is more cost-effective than getting new ones, though of course the exact details of that aren't explained here.

Any thoughts?

[sino52C]

Why, of course,

Taiwan does not have the money to sustain its military budget. 6 billion still seems a bit much though.

[The_Zergling]

Why, of course,

Taiwan does not have the money to sustain its military budget. 6 billion still seems a bit much though.

You do realize that 6 billion NT is about how much it would cost to buy 4 F-15s?

I'm not exactly sure how the submarine deal will work out under this new arms budget. However, seeing as Taiwan will still be getting the P-3s, plus a new runway as well as a PAC-2 upgrade with this new DRASTICALLY reduced budget, I'd say it's definitely a good (if very odd) deal, and not one I would have expected the US to agree to.

[FuManChu]

I'm not exactly sure how the submarine deal will work out under this new arms budget.

They put some money up for sorting out the design. Then when there's a workable deal on the table, with a final price, etc, they can decide whether to go ahead with it or not.

sino52C, US$ = NT$32

Taiwan can afford to spend more on defence - currently it's only about 2.6% of GDP.

[Finn McCool]

God, that's a huge cut. 590 billion to 6.3 billion. Is that right? Taiwan can't do much with 190 million dollars, or however much that is in US $. If I were them I would spend it on something boring but necessary, like motor transport, since you can't get much advanced weaponry with 190 Million.

[kovona]

New here so excuse me if I am wrong. Didn't the UN put a international arms trade ban in effect awhile back? So these new aircraft must be of course of Taiwan origin?

[The_Zergling]

I don't know of any UN ban of weapon sales to Taiwan, the closest thing there is to something of that regard is China's "discouraging" of any countries selling weaponary to Taiwan.

P-3s are made by the US...

Frankly I still think something's very odd about this. Like Finn McCool stated, it's WAY too big of a price cut, I just find it very hard to believe the US would sell all of this stuff to Taiwan for that kind of price. Just the 12 P-3s would normally sell for more than 197 million USD, in my opinion.

[kovona]

Well, it could be possible that Taiwan can get a discount perhaps, seeing how its American interest to keep Taiwan defended against PRC. Perhaps second hand P-3s?

[Snaykew]

I don't know of any UN ban of weapon sales to Taiwan, the closest thing there is to something of that regard is China's "discouraging" of any countries selling weaponary to Taiwan.

P-3s are made by the US...

Frankly I still think something's very odd about this. Like Finn McCool stated, it's WAY too big of a price cut, I just find it very hard to believe the US would sell all of this stuff to Taiwan for that kind of price. Just the 12 P-3s would normally sell for more than 197 million USD, in my opinion.

The US agreed with the PRC that Taiwan couldn't purchase military hardware from the US up to a certain value. But they didn't mention that the US could severely undercut the prices on it. So basically the US are selling their equipement to Taiwan for way way way cheap.

Concerning the arms embargo, thats with the EU and the US concerning highly sensative military technology and hardware being sold to the PRC, which was a response to the Tiananmen Square incident. Although other nations are not in the embargo, the US "encourages" them not to sell any to PRC.

Israel is an example of US pressure being applied to them. They've tried to sell China military technology or hardware and then were forced to change its decision.

I don't think the UN can order specifically an arms embargo, but they can do economic sanctions which is just as effective. Although with Iraq, France and Russia decided they could do it covertly. :P

[FuManChu]

The US agreed with the PRC that Taiwan couldn't purchase military hardware from the US up to a certain value. But they didn't mention that the US could severely undercut the prices on it. So basically the US are selling their equipement to Taiwan for way way way cheap.

I'm not sure where you got your information from, but the US didn't say it wouldn't sell stuff to Taiwan based on price. If there was any agreement, it was that it wouldn't sell offensive technology or weapons, like cruise missiles.

The US actually was selling its items for more than it usually would before, as Taiwan had few alternative sources. That said it may be that it has decided it's better to be more flexible with price than it used to be. As kovona said, these may well be second-hand Orions. But personally, if I was the US, I'd sell them the stuff they wanted with only a minimal amount of profit. It is in the US' best interests that Taiwan is able to hold of the Chinese armed forces as long as possible.

The PAC-3 batteries will have to be bought later, due to the Pan-Blues' objection to the sale. That might go through next year in the ordinary budget, depending on how things are working out in the Legislative Yuan. And the final price of the submarines may still be very high.

[Snaykew]

You're right about them not being able to sell offensive weapons. But I'm pretty sure there's a limit on how much they can sell though. It's in one of those agreements made between the US and the CCP. Forgot the name of the legislation though.

[KYli]

You're right about them not being able to sell offensive weapons. But I'm pretty sure there's a limit on how much they can sell though. It's in one of those agreements made between the US and the CCP. Forgot the name of the legislation though.
US and PRC did had some agreements regarding amount of weapons sell to Taiwan, but USA had already broken this obligation in 1992. So I doubt US would care to break this agreement again.

[tphuang]

The US agreed with the PRC that Taiwan couldn't purchase military hardware from the US up to a certain value. But they didn't mention that the US could severely undercut the prices on it. So basically the US are selling their equipement to Taiwan for way way way cheap.

Concerning the arms embargo, thats with the EU and the US concerning highly sensative military technology and hardware being sold to the PRC, which was a response to the Tiananmen Square incident. Although other nations are not in the embargo, the US "encourages" them not to sell any to PRC.

Israel is an example of US pressure being applied to them. They've tried to sell China military technology or hardware and then were forced to change its decision.

I don't think the UN can order specifically an arms embargo, but they can do economic sanctions which is just as effective. Although with Iraq, France and Russia decided they could do it covertly. :P
not true, the original package was shot down, because the Americans were charging way too much for them (like 6 billion for 8 subs?). Give me a break. And they didn't even know which sub they are getting.

[Bueller]

Taiwan never had a NT$610b (US$20b) procurement budget. That proposal got shot down repeatedly in the parliment. Even if it were approved by the parliment, it was to be spread over 10 years, not 1 year.

US$200m of procurement seems incredibly low for a defence budget of roughly US$10b. I'd take that piece of news with some salt.

You're right about them not being able to sell offensive weapons. But I'm pretty sure there's a limit on how much they can sell though. It's in one of those agreements made between the US and the CCP. Forgot the name of the legislation though.

That's just it. It wasn't a piece of legislation and the Taiwan Relations Act, a piece of legislation, thus law, overrides it. What you are referring to was the third joint communique between the US and China, often referred to as the 817 Communique by the PRC. Though no concrete agreement was reached between the two sides on the issue of arms sale to Taiwan, the US pledged the following:

Having in mind the foregoing statements of both sides, the United States Government states that it does not seek to carry out a long-term policy of arms sales to Taiwan, that its arms sales to Taiwan will not exceed, either in qualitative or in quantitative terms, the level of those supplied in recent years since the establishment of diplomatic relations between the United States and China, and that it intends gradually to reduce its sale of arms to Taiwan, leading, over a period of time, to a final resolution. In so stating, the United States acknowledges China's consistent position regarding the thorough settlement of this issue.