Foreign Military In China Pre Ww2

[grahamsh]

Is anyone out there interested in topics such as

Foreign military in Shanghai and the other treaty ports pre WW2 ?
Shanghai Volunteer Corps ?
UK and other warships on Yangzte ?
1911 revolution conflict especially around Chongqing ?

etc

If so I'd be interested to chat and compare notes. I am Brit working in Shanghai now and am doing some research on these topics as time allows.

Thanks

Graham

[Finn McCool]

I personally like the story of the Boxer Rebellion. Very interesting.

[Kampfwagen]

Ah, the Boxer Rebellion. What could be considered the Chinese version of the Zulu War.

Dont forget the Opium Wars now either. Or were those somewhere else...

[grahamsh]

Yeah sure :) ...but both the Boxer and the Opium have been covered fairly extensively by historians which is why I am more "into" the other stuff.

The Beijing Military Museum displays on the Opium Wars are rather intriguing to look at as a Brit - always good to "see ourselves as others see us" :).

[Snaykew]

Quite outrageous nowadays looking back at a nation starting a conflict over a drug trade isn't it? :P

[FuManChu]

Quite outrageous nowadays looking back at a nation starting a conflict over a drug trade isn't it?

Well a lot of things were different then. For one thing the use of opium in Europe wasn't considered bad, so no one saw the problem with selling it. Having empires was not frowned upon, it was considered the "in thing".

I wonder if in 150 years time people will decry our exploitation of the environment, for example. Not to mention the vast global arms trade, etc.

[Snaykew]

It's what I meant. Looking back and seeing what they considered ok and stuff.

[LiLaZnMaGiCsCt]

I think American forces were in China from the start of WWI.

[grahamsh]

Yes indeed - US Marines in Shanghai defending US business interests there.

[Finn McCool]

Grahamsh, I was just wondering about foreign navies in China during this period in general. I know that Germany had an East Asiatic Squadron pre-WWI, and England did as well, and that there were lots of foreign gunboats on China's main rivers, but I was wondering if you could hook me up with some sweet info and tell me a little about the naval situation in China, both at sea and on the rivers, during this time. Please?:)

[grahamsh]

Grahamsh, I was just wondering about foreign navies in China during this period in general. I know that Germany had an East Asiatic Squadron pre-WWI, and England [UK tee hee ;) G ] did as well, and that there were lots of foreign gunboats on China's main rivers, but I was wondering if you could hook me up with some sweet info and tell me a little about the naval situation in China, both at sea and on the rivers, during this time. Please?:)

Right....let me see what info I have with me (plenty in books and files back home in UK :( ) or refs I can find on web.

What period are you talking about, can you define a time span ? :)

[grahamsh]

Grahamsh, I was just wondering about foreign navies in China during this period in general. I know that Germany had an East Asiatic Squadron pre-WWI, and England did as well, and that there were lots of foreign gunboats on China's main rivers, but I was wondering if you could hook me up with some sweet info and tell me a little about the naval situation in China, both at sea and on the rivers, during this time. Please?:)

OK :) having had a rummage about, the Imperial German Navy had its 'East Asia Squadron' based Tsingtao at outbreak of WW1. It consisted of :

SMS Gneiesnau (heavy cruiser)
SMS Scharnhorst (heavy cruiser)
SMS Emden (light cruiser)
SMS Leipzig (light cruiser)
SMS Nuremberg (light cruiser)
Kaiserin Elizabeth (Austro-Hungarian cruiser)
SMS Iltis (gunboat)
SMS Jaguar (gunboat)
SMS Tiger (gunboat)
SMS Luchs (gunboat)
SMS Lauting (minelayer)
SMS Otter (river gunboat)
SMS Tsingtao (river gunboat)
SMS Vaterland (river gunboat)
S-90 (torpedo boat)
Taku (torpedo boat)

You/others can no doubt Google and find out more about these ships if you're interested :)

I've got a book about the UK Yangtze river patrol and will put some stuff up on this when I get a chance.

[ger_mark]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Chinese_Sdkfz_222.jpg

no they are not german, thats a chinese division armed with Sdkfz 222 and complete german uniform

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/NRA_gas_mask_and_Mauser.jpg
chinese soldier with german gas protection uniform

Chiang Kai-shek's son Chiang Wei-kuo got military training in germany and a nice nazi uniform aswell
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Chiang_Wei-kuo_Nazi_2.jpg

[ger_mark]

German expeditionary corps being send to china in 1911
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/China_Verabschiedung_der_deutschen_Soldaten.jpg

German Navy Soldiers in Bejing
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Deutsche%20Soldaten%20in%20China%201900.jpg

General Graf von Waldersee taking command of the combined european forces (63.000men, 24.000 of them german)
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/China_Graf_Waldersee_und_sein_Stab.jpg

Soldiers with conquered Boxer flags
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/China_eroberte_Boxerfahnen.jpg

beheading of the revolutionary chinese by jap military (dark look into future)
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/China_japanisches_Militar.jpg

[ger_mark]

German Soldiers on the great wall
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Deutsche%20Soldaten%20an%20der%20Grossen%20Mauer.j pg

Postcard
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Die%20Schlacht%20war%20heiss,%20nun....jpg

German troops in front of the chinese kaiser's palace in bejing
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Abschlussparade%20in%20Peking+.jpg

Chinese prince sung gives "letter of being sorry" (lol?) to the german kaiser willhelm II
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/China_Prinz_Chun_bei_W2.jpg

Signing peace of bejing in 1901
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Friedensvertrag%201901.jpg

[Finn McCool]

German troops in front of the chinese kaiser's palace in bejing


I didn't know that China had a Kaiser. Lol.

I have this book called the Boxer Rebellion. Very interesting read. The Boxers were pretty disorganized, as they were unbable to defeat a couple hundred Europeans, American and Japanese troops supported by some civillians and thousands of Chinese converts who didn't fight in the MIDDLE OF BEIJING, even thought they had (if I remember right) about two months to do it!

http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/China/Walls%20of%20Peking.JPG

Look how massive those walls are. I'm not sure but I think the entire city of Beijing circa 1900 is inside them. They're huge! The foreign militaries assaulted them when they rescued the aforementioned trapped Europeans in Peking's Legation Quarter. Probably the last time a military attacked walls like that. Maybe in the Japanese Invasion in 1937.

[QBZ957]

foreign military in China ay? Well i guess Hong Kong can be counted as one, with British troops, Japanes troops also was stationed there for a while. Around a couple of months ago a bunch of ammuntion was found under a suburb in Hong Kong, by my observations they looked like bazookas, mortars and some grenades not sure abt any firearms tough, they've all been destroyed. Authorities have said that they were mostly Japanese explosives. Australian Troops have also been in Hong Kong as POW's. Think there's more but that's all i know ha! :P

[grahamsh]

foreign military in China ay? Well i guess Hong Kong can be counted as one, with British troops, Japanes troops also was stationed there for a while. Around a couple of months ago a bunch of ammuntion was found under a suburb in Hong Kong, by my observations they looked like bazookas, mortars and some grenades not sure abt any firearms tough, they've all been destroyed. Authorities have said that they were mostly Japanese explosives. Australian Troops have also been in Hong Kong as POW's. Think there's more but that's all i know ha! :P

Hi, yeah sure, lots of activity in HK, although my question really related to the mainland. No pbs :)

Still finding ammo etc huh ? Careful when you dig !

[Finn McCool]

Boxer Rebellion Pics

Here are some foreign soldiers in Beijing. They look like Americans from the Relief Force.

http://www.historycentral.com/WStage/TheBoxers.jpg

A Boxer

http://www.historywiz.com/images/china/chineseboxer.jpg

Japan sent more troops to join the force that rescued the foreigners in Beijing than any of the European countries. Here are some of them.

http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/virtual/img/panel_img/2109_1b.jpg

Here is a picture or a painting (can't tell) of Allied troops storming the city Tianjin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CaptureTianjin.jpg

The Bengal Lancers enter Peking.

http://www.paulnoll.com/China/History/history-boxer-rebellion-pic-1.jpg

What happened to all my pics?!

[Bart150]

HMS Dauntless on the Yangtse 1927

My father once told me that he'd been on a British warship that sailed up the Yangtse:

"You had warlords in those days. We fired a few shots just to encourage one of them."

That was about all he said.

Years later at the National Archives I found from the logbook of one of his ships, HMS Dauntless, that in 1927 they had indeed followed a route that included trips up the Yangtse

Singapore – Hong Kong – Woosung – Nanking - Woosung – Shanghai - Woosung – Shanghai - Hong Kong – ? Danes – Canton River – Plover Cove - Shanghai - Nanking – Wuhu - Hankow

Unfortunately the logbook didn't tell me much more than that. Where can I find out more about this and related operations?

[Mike Blake]

[QUOTE=grahamsh;37066]Is anyone out there interested in topics such as

Foreign military in Shanghai and the other treaty ports pre WW2 ?
Shanghai Volunteer Corps ?

Grahamsh

I am researching these, in the context of the Boxer Rebellion 1900-01. The SVC I have little:

Shanghai Volunteer Corps (SVC)

Organisation & OOB

1853. The Shanghai Volunteer Corps (SVC) was created when the Consuls of the original Treaty Powers, Great Britain, United States, and France, met with foreign residents and decided to organise a Volunteer Corps for protection of the Settlement. [Shanghai]

1900. 27 ‘riding men’ who all knew the surrounding country thoroughly, were formed into a Company of Scouts, paying for their own uniforms and mounts. Officers were J S Fearson and A W Burkhill. [Kounin].

Customs Cyclist Company (CCC) formed as part of the SVC, apparently largely due to, Max Hey , an Austro-Hungarian bicycle enthusiast. Hey enlisted as a Corporal, later promoted to Sergeant. [AHA]

17 August 1900. Foreign troops garrisoned the Settlement. [Shanghai]

1902: Foreign garrison withdrawn. [Shanghai]

Operations
Very little is known about the CCCs activities but it was reported that it existed between May 1900 and March 1901. In British war history, the SVC only appears in footnotes and the CCC is largely unknown. [AHA]

20 June 1900. As precautionary measure defence of International Settlement placed in hands of the SVC pending arrival of foreign troops. under British control. [Shanghai]. Included in the preparations for trouble were the loosening of planking on the Soochow Creek bridges, arrangements of wire entanglements for all bridges across the Yangkingpang and construction of 26 ambulance stretchers. [Kounin].

Uniforms
This company wore British style uniforms made of local khaki fabric and Australian style slouch hats. Corporals wore 2 chevrons on the upper sleeve, Sergeants with three chevrons. [AHA]

Hey wore the Austro-Hungarian 1898 Signum-Memoriae-Medal, probably the only occasion it was worn on a British uniform. [AHA]

Weapons & Equipment
The guns and side arms were supplied by the British Army. The bicycles of the CCC came from the Customs Service. [AHA]

Sources
All About Shanghai, Appendix 2 - Chronology and historical digest of modern Shanghai, in Tales of Old China, at http://www.talesofoldchina.com/library. [Shanghai]

Annand, Maj A McK, Ed. ‘A Report on the Tientsin Volunteer Corps in 1900’. JSAHR Vol 39, 1961. [cited as Boyce Kup, the author of the original report.]

Annand, Maj A McK. ‘The Tientsin Volunteer Corps in the Boxer Rising, 1900’. JSAHR Vol 36, 1958.

Hey, Maximilian, at http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/hey.htm. [AHA]

Kounin, I I. Eighty-five Years of the Shanghai Volunteer Corps. Shanghai: Cosmon Press, 1938.

Morrison, George Ernest - Papers, 1850-1932 - Selected Diary Entries, 1900. Citation No: MLMSS 312, Heritage Collection, Nelson Meers Foundation, State Library of New South Wales, at http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au.

I would be delighted with anything you can add, please.

Mike

[DocAV]

Where does one start? By 1900, nearly every major and some minor European Powers had some military presence in Imperial China.
The British (Hong Kong & Wei-Hai-Wei); The Germans at Kaoutschou (QingDao)
The French in Shanghai, the Italians at Tientsin (Tianjin) the Austrians, Spanish, Dutch and Portuguese in various places on the coast, The Russians at Port Arthur(Manchuria), the Japanese in Formosa, and the Americans with a military detachment at the Peking legation and also at the (Remington) Arsenal at Tientsin, as well as in Shanghai (USMC).

Most of these detachments were either Navy related, these countries basing a Pacific or East-Asian squadron in China (Germany, Italy,Britain and France), or Colonial troops drafted from other areas of Asia and Africa. (the British had both British Army and British Indian Troops, the French also had, besides Naval Infantry, Senegalese from West Africa. The germans had a specific Unit, the Ost-Asiatische Shutztruppen, a battalion specially raised for service in Asia. and suitably equipped for tropical and subtropical service.

After 1900, with the crushing reparations imnposed by the Allied Powers on Imperial China, the numbers and Postings of Foreign troops increased, until 1914, when WW I changed the arrangements of foreign Powers.
Also, the 1904-5 Russo japanese war removed the Russians as a major Power in Chinese affairs, and the 1911 SunYat Sen revolution also started to change the rapport between China and Foreign occupation.
The Japanese rapidly expelled the Germans from China(Shandong peninsula) in late 1914, and of course the Austro-Hungarian Empire also disappeared from the Chinese scene.
With the passing of the 1920s, and the assertion of the KMT throughout China (Local warlords notwithstanding, the Foreign Military outpost grew smaller, concentrating on the major Port Cities (Tientsin, TsingTao, Shanghai and Hong Kong; Of course, the events of 8-18-31 (Japanese Annexation/invasion of Manchuria and establishment of Puppet state of Manch-kuo again changed the whole aspect of "Foreign" Military establishments in China. By the 1930s, most of the Foreign Military posts in China were to protect European intertests in the trading Cities from depredations caused by the ongoing Fighting between various Warlords and of course, the Communists. The original reason for the presence of Foreign troops (the collection of Taxes and reparations from the Boxer Rebellion treaties) had long since passed from the political scene.

So when the Japanese lauched the war against China proper (Marco Polo Bridge incident, 1937), the other nations "secured their backyards" and assited the refugee Chinese as and where they could.
Of course, the Japanese hostilities upset the position of the german and the italians, who in the 1920s and early 30s had larege Military Missions in China, traing the Chinese Army and Airforce (in order to combat Communism, and the Influence of Stalinist Russian Military advisors to the Chinese Communist Party. Japan finally convinced Hiotler and Mussolini to withdraw their Military aid, but by this time ( 1939,) those dictators wetre fully involved in a European War. The Italian Squadron in China finally was interned by the Japanese in September 1943 ( as had been the US Marines in 1941); Only the Germans remained ( in difficult relations) with the Japanese till 1945, sending important raw materials to Germany by "Cargo Submarines", the last reaching Germany after the end of the European War. ( Rubber, Tin, Tungsten, etc).

There is still very much to research on the presence and activity of foreign Military groups in China from 1900 to 1945, quite apart from the major WW II Players.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics Film Ordnance Services.:) :) :)