The JS's performance and speculations

[sumdud]

The new JS SMG has come out (Operation status unclear, but it's out.) recently, and being a derivative of the type 95 rifle, a bullpup, how will it do compared to other (Chinese) SMGs?

I have read an article provided by Dongfeng back on ezboard that talked about the type 79, and it was not good at all. The submachine gun was light and had a relatively long range. But it has one fatal fault: its bolt/carrier (I am not good with gun parts) is capable of flying off and knocking out the user.

Now China has 2 new SMGs, the JS and a helical gun.
The JS is compact, but the main question for the JS is: how will it do on CQB when the enemy is around the corner on the right?

[Nethappy]

The JS is light, compact, nice barrel lenght, 9mm, integral silencer, firing from the closed and locked bolt for all mode should make the JS extremely accurate and controllable.
Overall it should be great for CQB. Nevertheles they need to find some way to eject empty casings downward, to fix the right side problem.

Anyway, I could very well be wrong. As it's very hard to judge how good the JS is because there are not enough information.

[isthvan]

The JS is light, compact, nice barrel lenght, 9mm, integral silencer, firing from the closed and locked bolt for all mode should make the JS extremely accurate and controllable.
Overall it should be great for CQB. Nevertheles they need to find some way to eject empty casings downward, to fix the right side problem.

Anyway, I could very well be wrong. As it's very hard to judge how good the JS is because there are not enough information.

I agree that construction looks good but cartridge ejection problems make it unsuitable for CQB… But I could be completely wrong because I draw these conclusions from weary limited sources…
Since my experience is limited on classical smgs( Uzi and mp5) I have some doubts about bulpup designs… One of them is changing the magazine; you can’t do it as fast like whit classical design…

[Nethappy]

Since my experience is limited on classical smgs( Uzi and mp5) I have some doubts about bulpup designs… One of them is changing the magazine; you can’t do it as fast like whit classical design…

Well, I had experience in firing both the bullpup and classical rifle, there it maybe a bit of different between rifle and SMG. Nevertheless, from experience i gain from the rifle it just take some time to get use to, once your use to it you can change the magazine just as fast.

[sumdud]

Yea, ejecting cases downward can be a good idea. (Having the ability to change the port to the left wouldn't help right? There's not going to be that time during a battle.) Now you just need to think of the placement for the ejection port.

As for reloading time, I'd think the Nethappy is right. What makes bullpups longer to reload? If it is because you have to stick the magazine farther in through the stock, well, wouldn't the Uzi take even more time?

[isthvan]

As for reloading time, I'd think the Nethappy is right. What makes bullpups longer to reload? If it is because you have to stick the magazine farther in through the stock, well, wouldn't the Uzi take even more time?

Well whit Uzi or mp5 I joust drop used magazine and insert other, without even lowering gun and eyes and manage to do it in maybe second and a half depending on a gun…
Now because weary compact design of JS magazine would be almost at my shoulder and I joust can see how I would manage to do it in such short time and without some distraction… I CQB that time and distraction can cost you life… Again I joust stating my doubts and I could be completely wrong because my limited experience …

[Nethappy]

Well whit Uzi or mp5 I joust drop used magazine and insert other, without even lowering gun and eyes and manage to do it in maybe second and a half depending on a gun…
Now because weary compact design of JS magazine would be almost at my shoulder and I joust can see how I would manage to do it in such short time and without some distraction… I CQB that time and distraction can cost you life… Again I joust stating my doubts and I could be completely wrong because my limited experience …

Well with JS is the same as most mp5 and Uzi just have to drop the used magazine and insert another but you just have to move the magazine hand in a bit more. With enough practice it could be done at the same speed, and in term of uzi possibly with less distaction. As you push the magazine deep up the pistol grip it would most likely some kind of distaction.

Therefore the only main problem i see with the JS at the moment is the ejection of the casting during a right corner engagement, which have to be resolve before it can be operational.

[isthvan]

Well with JS is the same as most mp5 and Uzi just have to drop the used magazine and insert another but you just have to move the magazine hand in a bit more. With enough practice it could be done at the same speed, and in term of uzi possibly with less distaction. As you push the magazine deep up the pistol grip it would most likely some kind of distaction.

Therefore the only main problem i see with the JS at the moment is the ejection of the casting during a right corner engagement, which have to be resolve before it can be operational.

Nethappy since you have experience whit both design I can only agree whit your opinion… Since I really have no experience whit bulpups I have joust express my doubts… I like bulpup assault rifles but I joust don’t like bulpup smg…

[ahho]

Well one question that i want to ask is, other than cost, what benefitial does the bullpup design in smg does it bring. I mean, most smg have effective range under 250m.

[Gollevainen]

Well perhaps the same benefits as it brings to rifle caliber weapons
...longer barrel, better accuracy and range...

[Nethappy]

A longer barrel would should increase accuracy even at shorter range. IMO the JS barrel shouldn't be much longer then the MP5 at most 10mm or possibly te same, however if your compare the 2 design you would find then the JS is lighter and more compact.

JS: 450mm without silencer, 2kg (persume unloaded)
MP5: 660mm without silencer, 2.5kg unloaded

[swimmerXC]

Here
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg75-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg74-e.htm

[SteelBird]

Well whit Uzi or mp5 I joust drop used magazine and insert other, without even lowering gun and eyes and manage to do it in maybe second and a half depending on a gun…
Now because weary compact design of JS magazine would be almost at my shoulder and I joust can see how I would manage to do it in such short time and without some distraction… I CQB that time and distraction can cost you life… Again I joust stating my doubts and I could be completely wrong because my limited experience …

Generally I agree with Isthvan that US type guns are easier and faster to change magazines. You can do it by using just your left hand, pressing the button to drop the used magazine and then insert a new one. But again, I think it's just a matter of habbit.

Comparing JS to AK47, JS can change magazine much faster. My limited experience is on AK47 only that I learnt shooting at some shooting range. When changing magazines on AK47, you need to release your right hand from the gun, press the lever to pull out the used magazine (you can then throw it away :) ) pick out a new one from your chest-pocket and insert it into the gun, then pull the XX (I don't know how to call it, the THING you pull to push bullet into the bore), everything's done with right hand. This is slow. I guess JS can do all the things with left hand. In real battle, when changing magazines, no matter which way you use, you must hide yourself up first, else it will surely cost you life.

[ahho]

when i looked at the pic of the js which have a removable handle bar, does type 95 have that option??

back on topic well true, but just wondering, is this weapon for only police and the military??

[sumdud]

Well, the gun is certainly one of the shortest/most compact SMGs around, and also one of the lightest. (China has some of the lightest SMGs around. type 85 is only 1.9kg, but has a fragging bolt!)

The 5.8 variant can take on 50 rounds?!

Removable handle bar? I think that's just a variation/experiment. The gun isn't in real service yet. (And I hope it doesn't until the right death is solved.)

[Nethappy]

enerally I agree with Isthvan that US type guns are easier and faster to change magazines. You can do it by using just your left hand, pressing the button to drop the used magazine and then insert a new one. But again, I think it's just a matter of habbit.

Comparing JS to AK47, JS can change magazine much faster. My limited experience is on AK47 only that I learnt shooting at some shooting range. When changing magazines on AK47, you need to release your right hand from the gun, press the lever to pull out the used magazine (you can then throw it away ) pick out a new one from your chest-pocket and insert it into the gun, then pull the XX (I don't know how to call it, the THING you pull to push bullet into the bore), everything's done with right hand. This is slow. I guess JS can do all the things with left hand. In real battle, when changing magazines, no matter which way you use, you must hide yourself up first, else it will surely cost you life.

You can't really compare the JS to the AK-47 or the M-16. One is a SMG the other an assault rifle, almost all smg can reload faster then a assault rifles and I can't really name one then can't. Anyway is fairer to compare the Type 95 to the AK and M-16. The Type 95 an revolutionary for the PLA, it's a step aways from russian design. I can't really see much different with reloading a Type 05 and a FAMAS or SA80.

Back to topic: Don't they all have to pick out a new one from your chest-pocket and insert it into the gun, I though they do and from what you are saiding both the JS and US gun reload by using the left hand what the different.

A Yes and a NO. In real battle you find cover most of the time when you are reloading. Nevertheless there are time when u have to reload on the move and/or there a very limited cover around. Which the abitity to reload with one hand is a plus. However I really dun see any reason why you can't load the JS with one hand, and just as fast as the western counter-part.

The 5.8 variant can take on 50 rounds?!
I really dun think the PLA would want to keep their 5.8mm SMG round, moving on to the 9mm is a good idea. As it would provide a improve in performance.

[RedMercury]

What performance measures? "Performance" isn't just one number. The advantage of the 5.8mm pistol round is probably better penetration against soft body armor, while the 9mm probably has better stopping power and energy retained downrange. If I recall, the 9mm is offered to police, PAP, and export, while the 5.8mm is for military, if it is adopted.

[Nethappy]

What performance measures? "Performance" isn't just one number. The advantage of the 5.8mm pistol round is probably better penetration against soft body armor,While the 9mm probably has better stopping power and energy retained downrange. If I recall, the 9mm is offered to police, PAP, and export
SMG is use in CQB situation most the time, or i should said in situation which required CQB, which the 9mm is more suitable. There is a possibly that the 5.8mm have better penetration against SOFT body armor, but it doesn't have the stopping power. Prove me wrong if you can,
The JS is design for CQB, and 9mm is the better round for the role. Prove me wrong if u can!!

[RedMercury]

Geeze chill out. :P I don't have to prove anything to anyone. If you don't believe what I say, whoptie do.

The 9mm version is designed for police and PAP precisely because those organizations do not expect to be confronted with opponents with body armor (and logistically, the civies won't want to deal with another type of ammo unless they need to). The 5.8mm is designed for military because soft body armor is more likely to be encountered. I can dig up the article that says 5.8mm fired out of a Type 92 pistol can pierce soft body armor, but 1) I'm lazy and 2) just because you want proof, I'm not going to bother.

A pistol bullet is unlikely to penetrate hard body armor anyway, so shouting soft in bold is really a moot point. Besides, body armor will help stopping power, because it will help transfer more momentum to the target than having the bullet zip through flesh. Also, if I recall correctly, the 5.8 pistol round, like the 5.8 rifle round, has an air pocket to make tumbling happen earlier inside flesh. The PLA has adopted the 5.8mm pistol round, so they believe it fits their needs. Whether the PLA will use the JS, only time will tell.

[Kampfwagen]

It looks like the weapon suffers from a major flaw of Bullpup weapons; it is not ambedexterous. Unless everyone who will use this submachinegun is right handed, it might cause some compatability issues with some soliders. However, considering it's compact nature, it looks to be a reliable PDW and will come in handy for use by armor crews.

The Chang-Feng however looks to be a real stinker. If you think a bullpup design is dificult to load, Helical magazines are a real nightmare. Not to mention the bulky nature of the magazines causes problems with the storage of magazines on the body. (You could carry two MP5-style magazines back-to-back in a single pocket on the body without much bulk, but one Helical obviously will take up more space. Couple that with three or four, and weight becomes an issue)

[The_Zergling]

It looks like the weapon suffers from a major flaw of Bullpup weapons; it is not ambedexterous. Unless everyone who will use this submachinegun is right handed, it might cause some compatability issues with some soliders. However, considering it's compact nature, it looks to be a reliable PDW and will come in handy for use by armor crews.

Just wanted to point out that the Steyr AUG is ambidextrous, so it's not necessarily a problem with the Bullpup design scheme... but maybe there aren't enough left-handers in the PLA to warrant a design change.

[RedMercury]

There are 0 or close to 0 left-handed shooters in the PLA, thus PLA weapons don't have to be ambidextrous. There are close to 0 left handed writers in China, since in grade school natural left handers are forced to use their right hand. In the PLA, they have more recruits than they need, so any lefty is out of luck. For Chinese domestic use, it's really not an issue.

But if they are going for export orders, it is indeed an issue. Bullpup and lefty aren't incompatible, as Zergling pointed out. It just takes more design hassle, which Chinese arms manufactuerers seem largely to skip.

Hehe, indeed, perhaps helical magazines are impractical while looking good on paper. The original Chang-Feng was duel-fed, it could take clips as well (possibly for faster reloading, dunno). I haven't heard much more about it, probably another concept that didn't get past evaluation.

[isthvan]

Well I would like to explain my doubts about Js…

We used MP5 with fixed butt stock for CQB training… Like Nethappy said its 680 mm long smg whit 225 mm barrel length… There is also A3 type whit retractable stock (490mm long)…

I preferred A2 version because better stock and her length… Longer gun joust sits better on your shoulder and you have better grip and better situation awareness…
Whit shorter gun sights are to close to your shoulder and line of sight is pretty much f… up…
(Sorry but since English is not my native language I have some problems whit terminology; try aiming rifle from shoulder position and then tray to aim handgun that way and you will understand what I mean)…

We usually taped two clips together so we can change clips quicker and tried to never lover gun from shoulder position during reloading…
Now try to imagine using 450mm smg with clip almost at your shoulder and then tray to replace clip in second and a half… I doubt that I cold… If I’m shooting from hip then yes( but that we never did) but from shoulder definitely no… Shorter soldier maybe could but I have 1.85m…

So I can see Js as great PDW but I would not use it for SWAT work…
Again I do not have problem whit bulpup rifles but I really don’t like bulpup SMGs…

[Obcession]

It looks like the weapon suffers from a major flaw of Bullpup weapons; it is not ambedexterous. Unless everyone who will use this submachinegun is right handed, it might cause some compatability issues with some soliders. However, considering it's compact nature, it looks to be a reliable PDW and will come in handy for use by armor crews.

To be honest I've never heard of such a thing as a left handed person when I was in china (well, I left China when I was 10, so...)

I don't know why you guys are arguing about 5.8mm vs 9mm, the JS is already a 9mm...

I can't speculate about the reloading procedure on the JS, but I would imagine it's pretty much the same for all bullpop weapons, so reloading could indeed take a much longer time than regular designs. You'd have to rotate the weapon up so that the magazine is facing forward, and reload that way, is that correct? I think we all can see the disadvantages in this.

[Nethappy]

Well I done some searching about the ammo, during my spare time, while i was working. Been in China the last few day. so been busy
There are some US research which show the chinese 5.8mm rifle round is superior to the 5.56 X 45mm. Nevertheless there are no available infomation which show and prove to me which the 5.8mm piston is bette then the 9mm.
You can't use the same comparation of a rifle round to a pistol round.

1) I'm lazy and 2) just because you want proof, I'm not going to bother.
Dun state anything which u can't prove.

I can't speculate about the reloading procedure on the JS, but I would imagine it's pretty much the same for all bullpop weapons, so reloading could indeed take a much longer time than regular designs. You'd have to rotate the weapon up so that the magazine is facing forward, and reload that way, is that correct? I think we all can see the disadvantages in this

It really a matter of practice, it's prossible to reload a bullpup as fast as classical rifle.

[sumdud]

I see the 5.8mm bullet as a counter to the Belgain 5.7x28mm round. (But I'd guess it's weaker with less power, don't know how much more punch 1mm will give.)

I don't think lefty is a problem here, but the right corner is a fatal one.

But its longer barrel (First, it's a bullpup, second, the type 95 has a really long barrel, even when comparing it to other bullpups, it's like a downgraded SAR-21 of Singapore) and is really small relatively speaking. It'd be a pretty good SMG if you get used to bullpups and solve the right corner problem.

PS: Do you have to fully reload a magazine before loading it onto a gun and shoot?

[Gollevainen]

PS: Do you have to fully reload a magazine before loading it onto a gun and shoot?

No, all magazines works in same principle. There's a spring in the bottom which is attached to this little stopper that moves downwards everytime the bullet is installed. Atop of the magazine is a little clips to hold the bullets in the magazine and stops them flying over. We hardly ever loaded the magazines to their full capasity, usually just 5-10 rounds...

[Nethappy]

I see the 5.8mm bullet as a counter to the Belgain 5.7x28mm round. (But I'd guess it's weaker with less power, don't know how much more punch 1mm will give.)

Well I can see what you mean, it not really going to be much different. Nevertheless the 9mm should give a more powerful punch.

The right concers can be fatels, it really need a solution to fix it and fast.

[SteelBird]

No, all magazines works in same principle. There's a spring in the bottom which is attached to this little stopper that moves downwards everytime the bullet is installed. Atop of the magazine is a little clips to hold the bullets in the magazine and stops them flying over. We hardly ever loaded the magazines to their full capasity, usually just 5-10 rounds...

I don't see why we can't fully reload a magazine, with 5-10 rounds you will exhaust the magazine within 1 ~ 2 triggers. To install a bullet into a magazine, we place the bullet a little bit forward to the magazine, and then push it down-backward. That is hard but not impossible. During the Vietnam war (oh, is it allowed to mention about Vietnam war in this forum?) The Viet Cong (communist vietnam) fired as few round as he could. An experienced soldier can fire 1 ~ 2 rounds per trigger. So, by hearing the gun sound we can classify if the gun man is an experienced soldier. In forest fighting, especially when both sides are very near to each other, firing a whole bunch of rounds will expose yourself to the enemy, same meaning as exposing yourself to the death.

[sumdud]

Well, if you don't have to fully load a magazine to shoot, I don't see why helicals are deadly.
1st: You are going to have more than 1 loaded magazine with you.
2nd: You don't have to load all 50 bullets at once.
Well, a noob might not be good with #2, but I don't think an experienced user will fully load a magazine during combat.

Also, the guns are for CQB, with things like SWAT being more common. What's the chance it'll take more than a magazine? A scenario with 15 people or more in a case againstrunagates are not very common outside war, wouldn't it?

[Gollevainen]

well offcourse in combat situations, you use as much fully loaded mags as you can...But in training, like on shooting range, its almoust dangerous if everyone has the fully loaded rifles/SMGs on hand. The situation satys at hand far better when the drill instructors order the troops to load whit let say like five rounds to each of the three mags. Then the troops shoots them by some training program. and after the shooting is done, there supposedly isent any fear of loaded weapons when the men have to travel to the targets to see how they have hit.

[Kampfwagen]

First off, intresting stuff about the whole Left Handed situation in China. Had I known about that, I probably would not have posted that.

Second, I never really said that Bullpup weapons could never be made ambedexterous, and that is my fault for not elaborating on that point. Rather, it is dificult to design a rifle or SMG in a manner that does not create a needlessly technicaly complex and expensive weapon.

Third, it is all a matter of practice. But the shift between classic configurations and bullpup is probably causing quite a bit of fustration among some who are used to training with classic configurations.