Croatian military photos

[isthvan]

Degman MBT
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7398/degman06v5ka.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8157/degman09v6ar.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Joint exercise with USN
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1420/dd7ai6ih.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4325/hv90pula078ez.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Pilatus Pc-9
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6039/hv8586mikulic1c4hg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[isthvan]

Croatian navy minehunter "Korcula"(Korcula is croatian island, birth place of Marko Polo)
http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/1096/lm51korcula16yi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Croatian army M-84mbt with USMC M1mbt on joint exercise
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/5060/1f7br.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Croatian soldiers boarding USS Austin LPD during PHIBLEX joint exercise
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9127/phiblex200010zd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Military police
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/3816/rgb633my.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

MiG21bis
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/3706/mig21a1tx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Finn McCool]

That Degman looks nasty...I didn't even know those exsisted. I'll check it out. And the coastline the Mig-21s and the Hornet are flying over is very pretty. I would like to travel to Croatia.

[isthvan]

That Degman looks nasty...I didn't even know those exsisted. I'll check it out. And the coastline the Mig-21s and the Hornet are flying over is very pretty. I would like to travel to Croatia.

I’m glad you like Croatia.
As for Degman, it is further modernization of ex. Yu M-84 MBT with improved armor, ERA, FCS, engine etc. Development was finished and Army wonted to start production but ministry of defense decided to purchase wheeled AFV (Patria AMV or Pandur2) instead…

degmans manufacturers page:
http://www.ddsv.hr/tenk_degman_eng_1.html

[Finn McCool]

Yeah...purchasing an AFV would probably be a better idea for Croatia. I doesn't really need to many MBTs. Considering that Croatian troops are experienced in guerilla warfare, and have been trained in more conventional tactics by the US military, they would probably be a good addition to the UNs "frequent peacekeeper" list.

[isthvan]

Croatian Mig and Pc-9s
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1925/45bl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/3299/32ix.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Pc-9 and An-32b
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9196/an32bipc90io.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Croatian Strela-10cro (local version of SA-13)
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3184/368358449jjkwkofs1rq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Bell 206
http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/1171/bell20609n8ly.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Gollevainen]

Here's some from Croatian navy...
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3825/14126krkadb824xn.jpg
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3152/ari2006umanjen8hx.jpg
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9800/r0010074ut0cm.jpg
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/4993/r0010256go3dl.jpg

by the way, what is that chasis on the Strela 10??? Looks kinda odd...

[isthvan]

Here's some from Croatian navy...
by the way, what is that chasis on the Strela 10??? Looks kinda odd...

Well Strela10 was made during the war and since (because UNs arms embargo) there were not available chassis we used armored civilian truck chassis as base…

As for Navy those Shersen´s and Osa 2´s were captured in remount shipyard in Sibenik and hastily introduced in new Croatian fleet… Later they were converted to minelayers and scraped from fleet after the war…

[isthvan]

Army
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6836/ervatskivojnicisinst7ww.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8584/f2velika5rf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5079/g0000525gd9ru.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5897/hlika22og8so.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/4397/m840pe.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Totoro]

It sort of is too bad degman probably won't ever be produced in serious quantities. I don't have any concrete info but i doubt it can be cheap enough to compete with other t-72 variants on the market today.

Would like to see some more pictures of missile boats, ones croatia built / finished after the war.

But, truth to be told, missile boats are overkill for croatia. Taking into consideration the possible agressors, it'd be more effective to go for a purely defensive navy for policing the seas - basically a slightly enlarged coast guard with couple of minelayers and small amphibous landing ships.

Patria seems like an excellent choice to me, those would be a good addition to croatian army, but only as a complementing force to some MBTs. But I don't think the economy of croatia's size can afford itself to have a great number of those.

Also, those mig 21s are old stuff. and it's quite questionable if there's enough money to go around for new stuff. It'll probably be a competition between 6-8 new planes or 12 or so used ones. Actually fc-17 seems like a perfect choice for croatia, as it would mean a brand new plane of decent capabilities for low enough price that 12 or so can be bought. Of course that's not gonna happen if croatia becomes a part of NATO.

[Gollevainen]

Would like to see some more pictures of missile boats, ones croatia built / finished after the war.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/posejdon/21.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/posejdon/CORVETTEa.jpg

But, truth to be told, missile boats are overkill for croatia. Taking into consideration the possible agressors, it'd be more effective to go for a purely defensive navy for policing the seas - basically a slightly enlarged coast guard with couple of minelayers and small amphibous landing ships.

Well Missile boats are defensive warships...and i dont think them overkill....Croatia is still one of the few european countryes that have had war on its soil for recent decades, and the balkan situation can flame up in the future, the situation is far from solved. Nationalism is bitchy thing when marryed whit economical downstreams and things can flame up in Bosnia, Serbia or even in croatia. a fleet of three modern missile FACs gives HRM a punch that makes it superior to older generation Serbian boats, and also gives them ability to confront various threads that migth be unexpected. Missile FACs of scandinavian model (that the Type-400 Copra desing is) are versitile and yet relatively cheap platforms that offers much of the bunch delivered by bigger and expensive hulls of larger navyes.

[isthvan]

It sort of is too bad degman probably won't ever be produced in serious quantities. I don't have any concrete info but i doubt it can be cheap enough to compete with other t-72 variants on the market today.

Would like to see some more pictures of missile boats, ones croatia built / finished after the war.

But, truth to be told, missile boats are overkill for croatia. Taking into consideration the possible agressors, it'd be more effective to go for a purely defensive navy for policing the seas - basically a slightly enlarged coast guard with couple of minelayers and small amphibous landing ships.

Patria seems like an excellent choice to me, those would be a good addition to croatian army, but only as a complementing force to some MBTs. But I don't think the economy of croatia's size can afford itself to have a great number of those.

Also, those mig 21s are old stuff. and it's quite questionable if there's enough money to go around for new stuff. It'll probably be a competition between 6-8 new planes or 12 or so used ones. Actually fc-17 seems like a perfect choice for croatia, as it would mean a brand new plane of decent capabilities for low enough price that 12 or so can be bought. Of course that's not gonna happen if croatia becomes a part of NATO.

Degman probably won’t se operational service because Army does not have money for new MBT and new IFV so only chance for program is to find foreign customer…
Army is planning to buy around 150 new IFVs to complement our M-84 and T-55s.

As for missile boats Navy have only 3, one older ex. Yu class401 (last picture whit serial no.21) which was modernized in 1994 whit RBS-15s, and 2 new Petar Kresimir IV class (first from class is finished during war and can be seen on last picture serial no.11, second is now entering operational service)… They are armed whit RBS-15s, Swedish 57mm gun and AK630ciws…
Navy also have plans for 2 new OPV…

Air force plans to buy one squadron of new fighters (12-15) and 10 – 15 Mi-171…
Candidates are F-16 and Gripen depending on who offers better offset deal(same goes for new IFV)


And regarding NATO membership US Congress have recently suggested to White House that Croatia should join NATO as son as possible. Government expects that we will join in next 4 years…

[Totoro]

For country like china, missile boats would constitute a defensive navy. But for croatia i believe they're offensive. Cause only possible enemies are just few km away from croatian border. And serbian and montenegro navy is in even worse condition than croatian navy is. Not to mention what any possible separation of serbia and montenegro will bring. In my opinion it is VERY unlikely croatia will have any natural enemies on the sea, save for smugglers, etc - which police and / or coast guard should take care of.

Truck mounted coastal launcher would be more effective instead of missile boats, as well as using helicopters and/or airplanes for any possible anti ship missions.

Not to mention the fact those rbs-15 systems are not operational anymore. Lack of maintenance/tech support. According to status of croatian armed forces report, anyway.

And, in reality, only way croatia can afford to buy 12-14 new f16c / gripens is if significant savings are made on other areas. turning navy into coast guard would be one step, not investing in SAMs would be another. Even then, just look how much gripens costed hungary or czech republic, or how much greece or poland payed for their f-16s. Those are huge sums. Croatian equipment purchase budget just can not sustain that. army budget would have to go up by 50% overnight for that plan to be realistic. Offset plans are not sure deal - there have been instances where not even half of promised investments have been made, even years after contract has been signed.

I do hear sweden wants to get rid of its gripen A/Bs, as its downsizing its AF. They're still fairy fresh airframes, they're good for air2air and better for air2ground than mig21s offer. Seems like a sane choice to me.

[Gollevainen]

No, no, no missile FACs are defensive weapons. They dont sufficent into power-protection or landing occupation troops. In coastline like Croatian's best naval tactics are to use extensive minefields to block entrnace tot he key shiping routes, and guard these whit fast Missile combatants that can wipe out any enemy MCM units and tie down as much enemys combatants as possiple. Missileboats are at their best by datching behind small islands and fire their missiles towards enemy landing ships.

To make them offensive weapons or better to say, fit for offensive doctrines, you need to add helicopter pad and sufficent space to accomondate small commando teams, to have larger than AA gun in calibre of the main gun, and most importantly, land attacking SSMs.

Truck mounted batteryes are good, but more easyly destroyable than floating platforms, and to have aircrafts to do the job is well beyond Croatian reach for another decade or so.

[isthvan]

Navy already has few truck mounted coastal RBS-15 launcher and managed secured funds for modernization of missile boats and finishing mine hunter Korcula in this year’s defense budget…
As for other plans I am just repeating what defense minister said in recent interview…

[Totoro]

Um, once again, lets be realistic. What enemy? Albania? Italy? Serbian navy exists only on paper. Minefields would be great, i agree, thats why i pointed out they should remain as the part of navy. But its too expensive to operate missile boats when coastal launcher (or airborne launchers but only if they're not dedicated antiship plaforms as croatia would never be able to afford that) would be just as efficient. And i definitely do not agree its easier to find and destroy a truck on the coast than it is to find and destroy a missile boat. Quite on the contrary. Trucks you can move and hide in the forest in matter of minutes. For trucks you can have cheap and numerous realistic decoys.

I don't know what newest things croatian secretary of defense said but the report about the status of the army in published in the beginning of 2006 stated that no rbs15 systems are operational. I would, of course, assume that is one of the goals in 2006, to get it back up and running, with getting the new missile craft operational.

If there IS another war it will not involve battle on the sea. But given the problems that both croatian and serbian forces are facing on their own, plus their respective economies, it is very unlikely there will be any conflicts in the near future that would have for their goal an invasion of the neighboring country.

[Finn McCool]

Does Croatia have any ships in the Danube? I looked at the map and it appears that Croatia only has a few miles of the river, but it might be useful to have some forces in it, if only to mine the river or conduct operations, like, for example, speeding down river into Serbia and blowing a few bridges. (How great of an idea is that:nana: ?!)

[Gollevainen]

Well the world migth change...like we say in here. You cannot determ your defence needs purely by the curent political state of your neighbours. Three missileboats would not owerthrone Croatian goverment or slip it inot deep depression. Why does Finland have two+ one emerging squardons of missile FACs? Of our martime neighbours, sweden is never going to attac against anyone, Estonia hasent got anything to attack whit, and Russian Baltic fleet is on neglet and any post Stalin Moscow regime isent going to wage war against us....but you can never tell...neither can Croatians


Im not 1000% sure about the division of the former Yugoslavian Danube/Sava/and Drava river flotillas, but some old yugoslavian river crafts do appear in international naval charts.

[isthvan]

Secretary of defense basically said that they plan to reduce armed forces to 16000 men, increase military budget to 2% of state budget by FY2010 and sell or rent real estates military no longer needs… All saved money would go for modernization of armed forces…
Also Macedonia decided to buy new AFV whit us and since majority of AFV is planed to be produced in Croatia we could get part of that deal to…
Also Government is looking at Swedish offset deals in Hungary and Czech republic and believe that buying equipment that way may reduce unemployment (don’t forget that in country whit 4.5mil people 2000 new jobs are pretty much important).
Navy plans to change engines in missile boats this year whit new ones, they will lose some speed but will lover maintenance costs…
Military also expects that reducing the types of equipment will reduce maintenance costs...

As for Danube River most of the patrolling is in police hands and Navy have only few little river patrol crafts…

[Totoro]

Recently a minehunter boat for croatian navy has been completed, scrawny lil thing of 25 m length. It costed almost 12 million dollars to complete. You can bet a missile boat with modern sensor and weapon systems costs over a hundred million.

Croatian defense budget just can't sustain those things. Currently, after all the salaries have been payed and all the costs of running the existing army have been met - the money left for procurement of new weapons is just tens of millions of dollars. The plan is to get that up to some 100 million in 2008 with finally getting to 20% of entire budget to be used for purchasing new equipment around 2010, which could then amount to 150 million dollars. Compared to situation today when there's barely enough money to go around to keep stuff working it's a big improvement, but realistically, its miniscule amount of money for ambitious plans like a fleet of missile boats, fleet of new fighter planes, new air defense systems, new IFVs, etc. Something will have to be overlooked and in my opinion - navy would be most cost efficient choice.

And while one has to look into the future and keep an eye what the neighbor does, one should not do the first move and start an arms race. If serbia for whatever reason starts building up its navy, thats when croatia should build up its forces more. Enemy can't hide its procurement of new weapons, its a process that takes years. Also, with possibility of montenegro separating from its union with serbia, the whole point becomes moot as serbia will lose its access to sea and montenegro on its own has no need to attack anyone and even if it did its way too small to afford any kind of force.

[Gollevainen]

well cost of them is another thing, and usually gets well beoynd reasonable arguments. But as in doctrine level, missile boats are still usefull to a navy of Croatian size...or better say, to a navy of country size of Croatia.

But what comes to the budgetary cuts, the best way has always been to cut from there, were the expenses are most extravagant, or simply cut in all services. Its rather short minded to focus on two of three important sectors of country like Croatia, whit huge coastline and importance to commercial shipping.

[isthvan]

I agree with some of the things you have said… But we are not starting an arms race… Army will be much smaller; there will be only one tank brigade whit M-84s and AFVs and one mechanized infantry brigade, plus few military police, special forces, NBC and engineering battalions … Now that’s really is no threat to any neighbor…
Basically army is just trying to replace big amounts of old soviet and ex. Yugoslav equipment whit small number of modern system and to prepare itself for NATO membership…
New fighters will only replace migs after 2010 and one squadron is really not a threat to nobody …
As for Navy they are only trying to repair assets they have and since they already have missile boats and equipment for them they are trying to find founds to maintain them… It is not like they are trying to build more of them and I doubt that operational costs for 3 FACs and spare part for RBS-15s cost hundred millions… There is nothing that can replace them currently that we can afford and we still have huge coastline to patrol…
Helicopters will be delivered from Russia as payment of ex. CCCP dept (same way Hungarians got Mig-29s), radar air defense system is delivered in 2003 and currently is being installed, and currently there are no plans for new SAM…

[Finn McCool]

I just thought of this...Since Croatia will probably be fighting its wars on land, why not develop a naval platform that can support the ground troops? Basically what I'm suggesting is a sort of gunboat, except on steroids. It would basically be a floating artillery platform, with plenty of artillery to fire inland and put a lot of rounds into an area, in a fashion that is very difficult to counter or predict. When it is based on land, you know that artillery's rounds are only going to come down a certain number of miles from "the front". But if you have a ship with a bunch of artillery on, and you are in an area like the Balkans with a lot of countries on a small area of coastline, this would be a useful tool. Your land based artillery might be 50 miles away from a valueable enemy supply depot, but if it is close enough to the ocean you can just sail down with a couple of these boats and blow it up. They would be far cheaper than missle boats and would serve Croatia's interests much better. Any ideas for a name?

Goll will like this idea. Cuz of the artillery. :D

[Gollevainen]

well in modenrn world any sort of 'monitors' wuld be too vunerable to air thread...Basicly all ships are, thats why trend is going more towards bigger platforms. But Croatia do operate some old yugoslavian landing craft that could be in theory, fitted whit old naval artillery, to use as support craft....

[ger_mark]

its was a mess to cross croatia with my ford mondeo, it must be impossible with a mbt

[isthvan]

its was a mess to cross croatia with my ford mondeo, it must be impossible with a mbt

Well my friend that would depend about time of the year and the part of Croatia you went true… During a Tourist season I would be weary happy driving MBT. That would be great way to avoid those traffic jams;)

[isthvan]

Mig and AN-32b
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8210/66nh1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Migs and USN F-14
http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/2334/hv90pula140qk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Migs, USN Hornets and Tomcat
http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/3546/hv90pula00naslovna1bg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

PC-9
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5145/xmg00190hq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

PC-9 and 2 Italian AMXs
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8254/xmg00245tv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[isthvan]

US-Croatian SF during joint exercise
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/6182/hv82miladinnaslovna5hk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Croatian MP with croatian RT-20 20mm anti-material rifle
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2935/rt2021yf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Croatian MP with croatian RBG-6 grenade launcher
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9802/rgb611cd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Orkan MRLs
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7408/orkan51fr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Taifun MLRs
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/8409/tajfun31kp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[isthvan]

Croatian MP in Afganistan
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4063/erovedba20bojevog20gadjan3901s.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6049/d2enasi20pripadnici27732xi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/1488/enrglavassmadarskom0pk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/6779/faznatalijerbiciraza7tj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/4491/edlazakzastava1bx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[isthvan]

Joint exercise whit USAF
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2498/sivacmehanicari14cj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/6973/hv84acsa2000105db.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/5282/hv84acsa2000129ce.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8056/hv84acsa2000082yd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/1868/hv84acsa2000152th.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Red not Dead]

Here's some from Croatian navy...
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3825/14126krkadb824xn.jpg
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3152/ari2006umanjen8hx.jpg
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9800/r0010074ut0cm.jpg
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/4993/r0010256go3dl.jpg

by the way, what is that chasis on the Strela 10??? Looks kinda odd...



Czech OT-60

[Gollevainen]

OT-60 hmm? Doesen't sound familiar, does it have anything to do with the Tatrapan? Mean OT-64, which the chassis resamples have eight wheels instead of six in this particular vehicle....

[googeler]

Isthvan, would you happen to have a picture of the MiG-21bisD serial 110 in the new camo? - that's the only one I don't have out of the 12 overhauled ones...

[isthvan]

Sorry I don’t have that picture… I will try to find it for you.