Can China wage "small wars"?

[Finn McCool]

Chinese Nationals Flee Solomon Islands By RAY LILLEY, Associated Press Writer
Sat Apr 22, 3:15 PM ET



HONIARA, Solomon Islands - Nearly 90 Chinese refugees fled the troubled Solomon Islands on a Beijing chartered aircraft Saturday — the second group to quit the Pacific archipelago after a series of riots razed their homes and businesses.

Arsonists, looters and rioters inflicted tens of millions of dollars in damage on the capital Honiara's Chinatown district this week, sparked by rumors that either China or Taiwan had paid lawmakers to elect an unpopular new prime minister, Snyder Rini.

Rini served in a previous administration accused of corruption.

Gao Feng, a diplomat who traveled from China's embassy in nearby Papua New Guinea to help with the evacuation, said the Solomon Islands no longer were safe for ethnic Chinese.

"Most of these people are homeless, their livelihoods are finished so they have to go," he told The Associated Press as he helped 89 evacuees into trucks heading for the airport.

"People feel their lives are being threatened, too, even though half of them are citizens of Solomon Islands."

The Solomon Islands, like many other Pacific island countries, is caught in a tug of war for diplomatic influence between China and Taiwan, which split amid civil war a half-century ago.

The nation is one of a handful that officially recognizes Taiwan, but China is trying to lure it and Taiwan's other diplomatic allies away. Both sides accuse the other of spending lavishly to influence the outcome of the tussle.

Some experts have said the "dollar diplomacy" exercised by both China and Taiwan has destabilized the Pacific and exacerbated problems of corruption in the region.

Beijing and Taipei vehemently deny having any influence on Rini's election, but a widespread belief among many locals that both governments may have meddled has prompted a general anti-Asian backlash.

Over the past few days, Australia, New Zealand and Fiji have boosted police and troop numbers in Honiara to more than 1,050 to restore law and order.

Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer met with Rini on Saturday to discuss the ongoing tensions in the capital and encourage deep reforms.

Following those talks, Downer said the Solomon Islands must fight corruption.

"Economic reform is going to be central to the survival of the country," Downer told reporters. "There needs to be significant improvement. There is no doubt corruption has been a major problem in this country over a long period of time."

Rini responded by saying anyone with knowledge of corruption in government should present their evidence to the authorities.

"I'm not saying he (Downer) is wrong, but I say there should be evidence before we can say ... there is corruption," the prime minister said.

Meanwhile, Rini is encouraging members of the Chinese community — which controls much of the retail and business sector in Honiara — to stay, promising a share of the government's "meager resources" to help them recover their losses.

But as Rini spoke, dozens of refugees, many clutching bundles of personal possessions, rode through the capital on the back of open trucks, escorted by armed troops and police.

At the airport, dozens of Chinese mingled as they awaited their departure, some hugging bottles of water, others hugging neighbors who came to say farewell.

Some said they planned to leave for good; others said they planned to return when the crisis lessened.

But for some, like 69-year-old merchant and farmer Paul Yee, leaving was not an option.

"I have no place to escape (to)," he said. "I am a Solomon Islander."

This is the sort of situation I've been talking about for a while. Would the PLA be able to rescue/evacuate its citizens from a small, weak nation like the Solomon Islands, or invade it? This isn't resticted to the Solomons, it is just a good example. Chinese logistical, naval and special forces capability would probably be good enough, in my opinion, but the would definately have many more problems than for example the US did in the invasion if Panama. Basically the topic is "Is China able to wage a small, short war against a weak nation in order to protect its growing international interests, even though it is a great distance from China and has an abundance of weapons?" Examples of countries that might see a Chinese "intervention" in this manner are Central asian countries, the Solomons, Nepal, Brunei, esentially places that are a bit unstable and where China has citizens and interests. :china:

[bd popeye]

I don't think the PLA has the ablity to invade the Solomons like the US did Panama in '89. But I think they would have the ablity to rescue a group of PRC citizens from such a place.

The PLA forces lack the logistical capablity to invade as of this moment. No foward bases. Lack of airlift ablity. Lack of sealift. Limited airborne refueling ablity.

A rescue mission would be quite diffrent. You just need a smalll highly trained force that has only onemission..rescue. Quick in..perform the rescue and return to the PRC. Basiclly you need to gain a landing zone. Secure it. Perform the rescue and leave as quickly as possible. That can be done by PLA forces.

[Roger604]

Remember that episode back in the mid-90's when Indonesia was ethnic cleansing its Chinese population? There are millions of ethnic Chinese in Indonesia and they've been there for generations. There were a lot of rapes, according to reports.

This would be the kind of scenario where a PLAN aircraft carrier could provide humanitarian assistance and security. Going through the UN is another option, but it takes a lot more time.

Finally, China has fought small border skirmishes with bordering countries. But it historically has not acted on impulse but waited until things got really ugly, like the Sino-Vietnamese conflict.

[Vlad Plasmius]

Considering the Solomon Islands have no military capability. . . . . . . uh.. . . . . yeah. The Chinese could certainly do this. Just three or four Il-76s drop in and unload like 570 troops and completely dominate the islands then evacuate any citizens. It wouldn't take much force, would quickly end, and provide a suitable base for future operations.

[Finn McCool]

This is why I think the PLAN needs to have an Indian Ocean base, so it can react all around the reigion very quickly. China should gear its future military development not towards a very unlikely was with the United Staes, but towards smaller conflicts China is engaged in to protect its economic interests.

[FuManChu]

Remember that episode back in the mid-90's when Indonesia was ethnic cleansing its Chinese population? There are millions of ethnic Chinese in Indonesia and they've been there for generations. There were a lot of rapes, according to reports.

This would be the kind of scenario where a PLAN aircraft carrier could provide humanitarian assistance and security. Going through the UN is another option, but it takes a lot more time.

Which is why I've always said an LPH would be better for China in the short-term than a platform to launch strike-aircraft :p

I like the idea of China going to the UN for help - doesn't it insist that nations should stay out of the internal affairs of other countries, regardless of what's going on there? :rolleyes:

*cough* DARFUR *cough* DARFUR

Ah, what irony there would be.....

Pop is right. Invasion would be difficult, rescue would be a lot simpler. He said it a lot better than I could, so I'll leave it there ;)

Vlad, the French had difficulty pacifying a few island natives armed with bows & arrows, despite sending in the cream of their armed forces. When your supply lines are overstretched/non-existant then one slip-up can end a military endeavour. Of course if any such government raised the white flag at the sign of a PLA helo, then fair enough. But if they tried to fight it wouldn't necessarily be that easy.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Vlad, the French had difficulty pacifying a few island natives armed with bows & arrows, despite sending in the cream of their armed forces.

This is the French you're talking about here... the only strategy that ever worked for them was the I Surender Attack, succesfully executed against great odds during WWII. How can a bow even manage to kill a modern soldier?

[Gollevainen]

How can a bow even manage to kill a modern soldier?

same way as it killed acient soliders...

...But i advice you to not making such a lame and immature comments about french, Remeber you are on the edge with two warnings already, don't get a third from silly countrybashings like these...

[Dongfeng]

Theoretically China has the capability to use naval forces to evacuate her citizens from Solomon, but it will take PLA Navy weeks to moblise its ships and forces before a taks group/force can be dispatched, which would be too late for an emergency situation like this.

However, from legal point of view, there is no reason why China needs to send military forces to evacuate its citizens. The riots were started by general public, not by Solomon government (and its government had no intension to do so). So the two countries are not in the state of war. Unless the situation gets much worse, charted civil aircraft would be enough to fulfil the mission.

[FreeAsia2000]

Theoretically China has the capability to use naval forces to evacuate her citizens from Solomon, but it will take PLA Navy weeks to moblise its ships and forces before a taks group/force can be dispatched, which would be too late for an emergency situation like this.

However, from legal point of view, there is no reason why China needs to send military forces to evacuate its citizens. The riots were started by general public, not by Solomon government (and its government had no intension to do so). So the two countries are not in the state of war. Unless the situation gets much worse, charted civil aircraft would be enough to fulfil the mission.

Exactly.

Also China does not want to create the perception that it engages in gunboat
diplomacy which would have grave consequences for the other ethnic han people living in south east asia.

It would be best to mount a rescue attempt

[DPRKPTboat]

I was going to open a new thread on the same topic, but seeming as someone has already done that, I'll post my ideas here. I had a thought about possible small war scenarios China might get involved in as it becomes more powerful. Heres an alternative example form the solomons. Lets say if China decides to join a coalition against a certain country threatening international interests or commiting mass atrocities, or if it finds a certain poorer country suppourting terrorists in areas such as Xinjiang. In this case there would probably be no invasion, but an aerial bombing campaign.
My question is - would China be able to mount a precision guided bombing campaign against a smaller and poorer power, like America did with Libya in the 80s and Serbia in the 90s? In my opinion, the scenario would involve H-6 missile bombers firing KD-65 precision missiles at key targets, and then waves of J-10s, Su-30s and possibly JH-7s mounting a precision bombing campaign against military targets, probably air bases and air defences. Long-range cruise missiles may be used if China can develop them. Comments please.

[isthvan]

I was going to open a new thread on the same topic, but seeming as someone has already done that, I'll post my ideas here. I had a thought about possible small war scenarios China might get involved in as it becomes more powerful. Heres an alternative example form the solomons. Lets say if China decides to join a coalition against a certain country threatening international interests or commiting mass atrocities, or if it finds a certain poorer country suppourting terrorists in areas such as Xinjiang. In this case there would probably be no invasion, but an aerial bombing campaign.
My question is - would China be able to mount a precision guided bombing campaign against a smaller and poorer power, like America did with Libya in the 80s and Serbia in the 90s? In my opinion, the scenario would involve H-6 missile bombers firing KD-65 precision missiles at key targets, and then waves of J-10s, Su-30s and possibly JH-7s mounting a precision bombing campaign against military targets, probably air bases and air defences. Long-range cruise missiles may be used if China can develop them. Comments please.

I think that PLAAF momentarily can not do it ... PLAAF do not have real aerial refueling capability’s to operate outside region or any real SEAD capability to destroy enemy air defenses and they lack electronic warfare systems for jamming enemy communications and radar systems... PLAAF have fighters and bombers for job but like PLAN lacks logistics capability’s for that kind of war...

[Finn McCool]

I think China would use its ballistic and missle capability to blanket the enemies most powerful air defence capabilites, such as SAM batteries. That way, you have a pretty good chance of destroying the target (especially becuase poorer countries lack the integrated radar and air defence capability to withstand a large missle attack.) without loosing any valueable J-10s SU-30s (eventually) FC-1s. Then what was still functioning of the air defence network would be picked apart as DPRK was saying. The more nimble craft would then go in to destroy ground targets and the enemies air force.

This could not be eaisily done far away from China. Lacking aerial refueling, Ships capable of conducting crusie missle attacks against targets on land and any sort of foreign base network, China simply can't engage in this sort of "small war." It can mount a rescue mission into the Solomons, but I was just using that as an example. It is interesting to think that China can give the USN a severe bloody nose, but would have a lot of trouble taking down, say, Brunei, Papua New Guinea, or any country outside of East Asia, no matter how weak.

[isthvan]

I think China would use its ballistic and missle capability to blanket the enemies most powerful air defence capabilites, such as SAM batteries. That way, you have a pretty good chance of destroying the target (especially becuase poorer countries lack the integrated radar and air defence capability to withstand a large missle attack.) without loosing any valueable J-10s SU-30s (eventually) FC-1s. Then what was still functioning of the air defence network would be picked apart as DPRK was saying. The more nimble craft would then go in to destroy ground targets and the enemies air force.


Congratulations you have just managed to kill half of civilian population around SAM sites and destroy maybe 1/20 of SAMs and that only if they were to stupid to move them from known sites... You know like Serbs did;) . How on h... you think to destroy SAMs with ballistics missiles? They do not have enough accuracy for something like that, SAM batteries are mobile systems and not enemy airfields... So you would cause severe casualties to civilian population, spend hundred millions of dollars worth BM and turn public opinion in enemy’s favor without cousing any damage to its air defenses…

[Nethappy]

Well if it was a war against a neighbouring a dozen of conventional arm IRBM or MRBM lauched simultaneously aimed at high value Military targat and Airfield would keep enemy air defence buzy. During this time, it would make it easy to lauch a SEAD style strike with the SU-30 and it KH-31P. The JH-7 and when the J-10 become operational could use KH-31P to support the SEAD mission for a more important attack and make sure enemy airfield redeem useless. The H-6 Bomber can use there KD-63 at standoff range to destory command post.

The SU-27 and J11 would supply Air-defence with the support of these prototype AEW&C system.

If they manage to pull this off, it effeicently gain air superiority. But this only work against some of the smaller state for example Vietnam.

[FreeAsia2000]

Well if it was a war against a neighbouring a dozen of conventional arm IRBM or MRBM lauched simultaneously aimed at high value Military targat and Airfield would keep enemy air defence buzy. During this time, it would make it easy to lauch a SEAD style strike with the SU-30 and it KH-31P. The JH-7 and when the J-10 become operational could use KH-31P to support the SEAD mission for a more important attack and make sure enemy airfield redeem useless. The H-6 Bomber can use there KD-63 at standoff range to destory command post.

The SU-27 and J11 would supply Air-defence with the support of these prototype AEW&C system.

If they manage to pull this off, it effeicently gain air superiority. But this only work against some of the smaller state for example Vietnam.

Has nobody learnt any lessons ? First examine what you want to achieve, then your methods and finally whether it is achievable.

Any military option without a political involvement will be worse than useless besides drawing in opposition from other parties.

Guerilla wars are by their nature politically intensive. A short, sharp war will soon drag into years and the economic and political costs start to escalate way beyond initial expectations.

[isthvan]

Well if it was a war against a neighbouring a dozen of conventional arm IRBM or MRBM lauched simultaneously aimed at high value Military targat and Airfield would keep enemy air defence buzy. During this time, it would make it easy to lauch a SEAD style strike with the SU-30 and it KH-31P. The JH-7 and when the J-10 become operational could use KH-31P to support the SEAD mission for a more important attack and make sure enemy airfield redeem useless. The H-6 Bomber can use there KD-63 at standoff range to destory command post.

The SU-27 and J11 would supply Air-defence with the support of these prototype AEW&C system.

If they manage to pull this off, it effeicently gain air superiority. But this only work against some of the smaller state for example Vietnam.

Not exactly... Majority of small countries like Vietnam does not have any missile defenses. Knowing that they can not do a damn thing about BM they would just scatter their military forces and divert all assets for facing treats they can do something about…
So with launching BMs you would just alert there air defenses and lose element of surprise.
There is only two ways to deal with air defenses, first is American with stealth planes in the first wave and second is Israeli with fighters doing SEAD missions. For PLAAF first way is not the option since it does not have stealth fighters and Israeli way requires element of surprise(wich you lost after attack with BM)… And decent EW and jamming capabilities, one other thing PLAAF lacks…
Also I’m curious what kind of SAR capabilities PLAAF have and what kind of SEAD capabilities they poses other then Su-30/KH-31P combo?

[DPRKPTboat]

China will get aerial refuelling capability once those Il-78 tankers arrive - and if it gets enough inlfunece around the opposing country then it may be able to establish air bases there. China could destroy SAM and radar sites with GPS guided DF-15 missiles, but they are not very useful for the job. The PLAAF could destroy Radar sites and disrupt the enemy air defence control system using Kh-31 ARMs. And H-6s armed with KD-63s could fire their missiles outside enemy air defence. The enemy radar is likely to be outdated, as it is a poorer country, so the J-10s and Su-30s could do what the Coalition air force did when it was bombing Iraqi airfields in Desert Storm - fly low-level attack missions to advoid enemy radar, which only covered medium to hig altitude. If they get Tu-22s they could carry out even heavier bombing. And once they get their carriers they could also be useful. (This is likely to be 5 or 6 years from now)

[Nethappy]

BM they would just scatter their military forces and divert all assets for facing treats they can do something about…
So with launching BMs you would just alert there air defenses and lose element of surprise.
But if the launching of BMs and the SEAD operation simultaneously with these aircraft flying in at low-level might just create an element of suprise as the BM would mostly likely grab all the attention of the radar operator all the way up the Command and these BMs should mostly be aimed at Airforce Base. As you should know many of these nation are not as professional as the western world.

But the likelihood of any war happen in the near future are very slim.

[DPRKPTboat]

I think we're pretty sure then that ballisitc missiles will not be used in a precsion strike. So maybe there will not be a Chinese equivalent to operation Allied Force or Desert Storm. But what about a single, strategic precison strike against a threat to China's interests?
Lets say Taiwan decides to build nuclear weapons as a deterrent to a Chinese invasion. China protests to the U.N., and identifies the main Taiwanese nuclear sites - including an enrichment facility and a nuclear reactor under construction. A Chinese equivalent to the Iran crisis, if you will (this doesn't have to be likely or true, but I am using this as a typical scenario to try to determine China's capabilities). So eventually China decides to launch a precision air strike against the reactor and enrichment facility. There are two options that the PLAAF could use:

1) H-6s armed with KD-63s approach the Taiwanese coast. The they fire their missiles and fly back to base. The KD-63s are GPS guided and can destroy the reactor and enrichment plant, without putting any aircraft at risk to enemy air defence. Of course, the H-6s would be sent with fighter escort in case they were detected.

2) The PLAAF decides to use Israeli tactics and sends smaller fighter-bombers on an Osirak-style low-level air strike. They will probably be Su-30s escorted by J-10s or Su-27s/J-11s, lauched from mainland airbases or even an a Chinese aircraft carrier (this will probably be 4 or 5 years in the future - so Varyag will have been commisioned by then) The weapons used may be laser/TV guided bombs such as the KAB-1500/500 or guided missiles such as the Kh-29. Whatever the weapon, it would have to be a precise and carefully planned strike, and would probably be done without adavnce warning to gain the element of surprise. But sending aircraft against advanced Taiwanese air defences could be risky, and some aircraft would be lost.

Personally I think a KD-63 attack would be the best option for a precision strike like this. It would not require much planning, would be easier to carry out, and no aircraft would be at risk and wouldnot require a lot of resources. However if anyone has any other ideas or opinions, please post it here.

[Roger604]

Launching strikes against government targets is only one part of the big picture.

Overseas Chinese are often targets of opportunity for the people of a country. Ethnic conflict between overseas Chinese and "locals" is very common. The government won't openly support it, they just won't enforce their law. Or perhaps the government is politically weak and they don't want to go against the mob.

So when the government doesn't do anything, it's not so productive to attack their military. Instead you need precision weapons to attack the mobs that are attacking overseas Chinese.

I think in these cases, you need something FAST that can carry enough munitions. The best bet would be having something similar to the Tu-195 Blackjack bomber on 24hr standby somewhere in Southern China (;) ;) ). If some kind of ethnic conflict flares up and the government is not doing anything about it, you get intelligence from the ground about which targets to strike (just ask the overseas Chinese population where the mobs are gathering) and then drop some bombs.

[isthvan]

Launching strikes against government targets is only one part of the big picture.

Overseas Chinese are often targets of opportunity for the people of a country. Ethnic conflict between overseas Chinese and "locals" is very common. The government won't openly support it, they just won't enforce their law. Or perhaps the government is politically weak and they don't want to go against the mob.

So when the government doesn't do anything, it's not so productive to attack their military. Instead you need precision weapons to attack the mobs that are attacking overseas Chinese.

I think in these cases, you need something FAST that can carry enough munitions. The best bet would be having something similar to the Tu-195 Blackjack bomber on 24hr standby somewhere in Southern China (;) ;) ). If some kind of ethnic conflict flares up and the government is not doing anything about it, you get intelligence from the ground about which targets to strike (just ask the overseas Chinese population where the mobs are gathering) and then drop some bombs.

Congratulations Roger you just made worst possible thing you could do… Bombing civilian population( even if they are angry mob) of other country is stupidest thing China could do… You know that 5 minutes after bombing run you would have open hunt seson on your nationals, not to mention that Europeans and US will scream bloody murder and impose economical sanctions before you could say "sanctions":coffee: …
There are much better ways to protect your nationals in other contries and if you are interested how to do it look what Europeans and Americans do…

[Don't Shoot]

I think the chinese would use their newest weapons and overwelming force
in a situation like this mainly just to show the world they could do it. or maybe
they would use air strikes and paratroops. maybe an amphibious landing?

[isthvan]

I think the chinese would use their newest weapons and overwelming force
in a situation like this mainly just to show the world they could do it. or maybe
they would use air strikes and paratroops. maybe an amphibious landing?

First of all there are no small wars... Small opponents can be dangerous as big...
China doesn’t have means to deliver "overwhelming force" beyond first island chain ... They can’t do it for now... For amphibious landing beyond first island chain PLAN lacks LHD class amphibious ships, fleet replenishment ships, attack helicopters, aerial refueling capabilities, training and experience...
China has means to fight any neighbor but outside first island chain PLA can send only symbolic number of troops...

[jackbh]

Who ever said China has to wage war that involves sea. China could wage land war on the continent whcih China is mostly a land locked nation.

[Golden Horde]

China has done correctly in Solomon, now the new installed Solomon Government will open diplomatic relation with China and abandon Taiwan.

Hi Golden Horde and welcome to our forum!..In this forum we do not allow one liners You need to post more than one sentence to keep the forum going and provoke comments from other forum membes. Since this is your first post I will not delete it. Please read the forum rules before posting again!!

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=20

Thanks..edited by bd popeye moderator

[isthvan]

Who ever said China has to wage war that involves sea. China could wage land war on the continent whcih China is mostly a land locked nation.

This thread is about Chinese logistical, naval and Special Forces capability to rescue/evacuate chinese nationals or invade small, weak nation... Please read first post in this thread...
As I said China has means to fight any neighbor (nevertheless some neighbours would be tough not to crack;) ) but this thread is not about that...

[SampanViking]

In these situations I think China will employ its most recent and smartest weapon. It unerringly targets its key enemeis in key locations and completely avoids the Civilian population.

This weapon is already widely deployed especially in the Pacific Islands and is likely to be unleashed in full force against the Solomons now that China's population is evacuated and if the new Govt is hostile.

Ok well I think you get the point, it is obviously money!!!!!

[MIGleader]

ah hah!!! that reminds me of an IBM comercial..."are you saying we throw money at the problem?":roll:

How do you suppose china will use its latest weapon then? it could give it to the military, and let them do something. China could call for UN troops to go in.

Or it could bribe the solomen goverment. But the solomons are such obscure islands. the average american doesnt know where they are. Why waste the money?

[isthvan]

ah hah!!! that reminds me of an IBM comercial..."are you saying we throw money at the problem?":roll:

How do you suppose china will use its latest weapon then? it could give it to the military, and let them do something. China could call for UN troops to go in.

Or it could bribe the solomen goverment. But the solomons are such obscure islands. the average american doesnt know where they are. Why waste the money?

Agreed:). It would be waste of money and resources... Rather let Australia and New Zealand do the job for you;). It is not like you could do anything about it with Aussie and NZ troops already on Solomon’s...

[Nethappy]

Under these circumstance I believe China would most likely exploit a diplomatic solution and most country would comply to the Chinese goverment to use chartered aircraft for an evacuation.

When all fail then it could easily sent in the SF. China SF should have the capablites of running a clandestine operteration or something. All they really need to do it go in fast rally up as many Chinese as possible and protect them and get the hell out.

It shouldn't be hard for such an opertaton, China

[Finn McCool]

Congratulations you have just managed to kill half of civilian population around SAM sites and destroy maybe 1/20 of SAMs and that only if they were to stupid to move them from known sites... You know like Serbs did;) . How on h... you think to destroy SAMs with ballistics missiles? They do not have enough accuracy for something like that, SAM batteries are mobile systems and not enemy airfields... So you would cause severe casualties to civilian population, spend hundred millions of dollars worth BM and turn public opinion in enemy’s favor without cousing any damage to its air defenses…

You notice I never said that the ballixtic (and cruise) missles would fully destroy the enemies SAM capability. Their task would to be to suppress the enemies defences, keeping them occupied, destroying some and preventing them from being able to concentrate on aircraft. This would not work against the United States for example, because it has the capability to handle that many threats, but against a poorer country without a state of the art air defence, it would serve to "overload" the air defence system if used in conjunction with what few electronic warfare capabilites that China has and with air strikes. Basically one site wouldn't be able to support another, and with the chaos caused by missles raining down on your radars, SAMs and command posts, it would be very difficult to mount a coordinated defence. The air defence network could be defeated in detail, divide and conquer. Bludegon the air defence to stun it, then go in for the kill.

And I don't really think that the PRC is all that concerned with civillian casualties. That is a luxury only nations with precision capability can afford. and who in their right mind is going to sanction China?! "Yeah, I'm gonna deprive my self of trade with the world's fastest growing, second biggest economy because they killed some Indonesian people." Not trying to start a flame war, but as Sampan Viking said, money is China's biggest weapon. Nations aren't going to give up trade with China. However, they will use it as a chance to criticize Chnia as much as they can.

Golden Horde copied my name! That's my name in Defence Forum.

[Nethappy]

And I don't really think that the PRC is all that concerned with civillian casualties. That is a luxury only nations with precision capability can afford. and who in their right mind is going to sanction China?! "Yeah, I'm gonna deprive my self of trade with the world's fastest growing, second biggest economy because they killed some Indonesian people."

Under current world political situation the only kind of war China going to get involed in would be a low-intense. In these circumstance a disregard of civillian life and causing large civillian casualties is totally unacceptable no matter who draw fire frist. It may not be saction, but Thank You Finn McCool, you just effectively destory all the support, goodwill and soft power China been working so hard for the last two decade.

You notice I never said that the ballixtic (and cruise) missles would fully destroy the enemies SAM capability. Their task would to be to suppress the enemies defences, keeping them occupied, destroying some and preventing them from being able to concentrate on aircraft. This would not work against the United States for example,

You can not hit something the size of a SAM with a BM, you just end up hitting something else and hope it not a town or City.

DF-21 MRBM would be best as it have a CEP of 300-400m and it would NOT be aimed at the Air Defence but rather at an Airforce base. Which are nomarlly in remote area, away from the dense of the population. Simultaneously an combind air strike flying in at low level would be needed to destory the Air defence and comand centre. Then hopefully these BM can destory or damage part of the Airforce base and minimizes the enemy figther operation capability and the airstrike destory and minimizes the airdefence and C3 cpability. Hopefully they can gain air superiority.

[isthvan]

You notice I never said that the ballixtic (and cruise) missles would fully destroy the enemies SAM capability. Their task would to be to suppress the enemies defences, keeping them occupied, destroying some and preventing them from being able to concentrate on aircraft. This would not work against the United States for example, because it has the capability to handle that many threats, but against a poorer country without a state of the art air defence, it would serve to "overload" the air defence system if used in conjunction with what few electronic warfare capabilites that China has and with air strikes. Basically one site wouldn't be able to support another, and with the chaos caused by missles raining down on your radars, SAMs and command posts, it would be very difficult to mount a coordinated defence. The air defence network could be defeated in detail, divide and conquer. Bludegon the air defence to stun it, then go in for the kill.

And I don't really think that the PRC is all that concerned with civillian casualties. That is a luxury only nations with precision capability can afford. and who in their right mind is going to sanction China?! "Yeah, I'm gonna deprive my self of trade with the world's fastest growing, second biggest economy because they killed some Indonesian people." Not trying to start a flame war, but as Sampan Viking said, money is China's biggest weapon. Nations aren't going to give up trade with China. However, they will use it as a chance to criticize Chnia as much as they can.

Golden Horde copied my name! That's my name in Defence Forum.

My point was that with BM strikes you would destroy small or none part of opponents air defenses, you would alert its defenses and cause considerable civilian casualties… By so doing you would firstly completle lost element of surprise and secondly shift international public opinion on his side…
Since you taken Indonesia for your example lets see who would care? Since it is largest Muslim country on the world you would have mulas screaming jihad from Bosnia to Saudi Arabia and Iran (by-by oil agreements), then since it is tourist destination for every European with enough cash you could expect few dead Europeans and so you have European investments shift from “world's fastest growing, second biggest economy” to some other country with cheep labor (India, Pakistan, Russia, South America) and so on…

DF-21 MRBM would be best as it have a CEP of 300-400m and it would NOT be aimed at the Air Defence but rather at an Airforce base. Which are nomarlly in remote area, away from the dense of the population.

Air force bases in small countries are mostly located near on in mayor cities because there airfields have dual roles (both civilian and military)… It is not same thing if you are score hit on enemy airstrip or for example Air France 747 full of tourists…

[SampanViking]

The Solomons are just too small and too far away for China to really care. They have got soom good PR by rescuing its citizens and bringing them back home.

The money arguement is about its withdrawal not use, so it costs China nothing, quite the opposite let Australia and New Zealand put their hands in their pockets, now the Islanders have burnt down their Commercial District and chased away their business community.

Do not underestimate the value and quantity of Chinese money sloshing around the Asia Pacific region through either Trade or Aid. The loss of access to this particular gravy train, by any small country in the region will hurt and hurt a lot.

If similar problems were to occur in countries closer to home, I still think China would be reluctant to use a military response. This is not out of fear or inability, but simply because it is Politically Expedient. It plays better to portray itself as the victim and to use muscular diplomacy to economically isolate the offending country.

I think it would require a direct Government ordered attack by regular forces against Chinese territory or possesions to actually provoke a military retalitory strike. Somehow I do not see to many small countries queing up for this privilige.

[Roger604]

Congratulations Roger you just made worst possible thing you could do… Bombing civilian population( even if they are angry mob) of other country is stupidest thing China could do… You know that 5 minutes after bombing run you would have open hunt seson on your nationals, not to mention that Europeans and US will scream bloody murder and impose economical sanctions before you could say "sanctions":coffee: …
There are much better ways to protect your nationals in other contries and if you are interested how to do it look what Europeans and Americans do…

I would have thought that an angry mob targeting a particular ethnic group would be considered "irregular combatants" and use of force is justified. Assuming, of course, that the government is knowingly complacent.

Am I wrong?

[The_Zergling]

Something that we tend to forget when discussing "precision" weapons is that they still tend to cause heavy unwanted civilian casualties. Sure, your laser guided bomb is accurate enough to hit the building you want. However, when it is packed with a thousand pounds of explosives, more often than not it's going to take out the entire block.

Is it as bad as carpet bombing? Of course not. It's still going to piss off whoever's on the receiving end of the bombs, though.

[isthvan]

I would have thought that an angry mob targeting a particular ethnic group would be considered "irregular combatants" and use of force is justified. Assuming, of course, that the government is knowingly complacent.

Am I wrong?

If we talk about Darfur or Ruanda kind of situation where you have locals driving around armed Toyotas and killing ethnic minority they are “irregular combatants" and you bomb them to Hell if you want… But to bomb angry mob like in Solomon’s would be considered attacking civilian population…
If that would not be the case you would have bombs fouling every time riot starts… Denmark would bomb mobs in Syria; French would bomb mobs in Paris etc

[Nethappy]

Air force bases in small countries are mostly located near on in mayor cities because there airfields have dual roles (both civilian and military)… It is not same thing if you are score hit on enemy airstrip or for example Air France 747 full of tourists…

Well, if it was one of these small country, a few cruise missile aimed at C3ISR facilities would be enough to diverse attention from the main Air Strike and there airforce would poses limited challenge to the PLAAF.

Almost every nation would have at lease one airforce bases which is of limited to civilian and over a few km away from the capital city the, which is nomally their most important Base. Although there are a few expection.

[SampanViking]

It seems to me that there is a little confusion between a small war and civil unrest.

A small war is waged against a state with the Governement and its instruments of power being the primary targets.

Civil Unrest is just riotinging between a population and its own government. If it gets worse and rioters start arming and becoming militia, you can call it an insurgency. In these conditions, foriegners (esp wealthy foriegners) will become targets of opportunity for rioters etc.

If a govt however ceases to function because of unrest and this unrest threatens either a vital interest or to spread over the borders to your own territory, you may consider a military intervention as a form of Police Action, in order to re-establish order.

On that note, and maybe dangerously, I am surprised nobody has mentioned Nepal, which as an Ally of China, bordering a sensitive area, could be a prime candidate for a Police Action.

This could happen as a last ditch invitation by the King in order to retain his position, or after the event if the whole country descended into chaos.

Lets see if we can discuss these matters sensibly, otherwise........

[Roger604]

If we talk about Darfur or Ruanda kind of situation where you have locals driving around armed Toyotas and killing ethnic minority they are “irregular combatants" and you bomb them to Hell if you want… But to bomb angry mob like in Solomon’s would be considered attacking civilian population…
If that would not be the case you would have bombs fouling every time riot starts… Denmark would bomb mobs in Syria; French would bomb mobs in Paris etc

I don't think analogy works. The mobs in Paris (if this is what you're referring to), are protesting wages! The mobs in Syria were not going around targetting a specific ethnic minority in their country. They're just saying "we're angry."

Trust me, there are MANY countries in the world where they absolutely hate the Chinese. I think just about everywhere where there is a big population of Chinese, many of the locals dislike them.

When an angry mob starts ethnic cleansing Chinese people (like in Indonesia), I see no reason why they should be considered "civilians." They are committing an atrocity, and China must step in and help the overseas Chinese!

The closest analogy I can think of is the state of Israel going after people who deliberately kill jews in other countries. Usually they do it by having Mossad assassinate. A Tu-160 Blackjack strike into the heart of an angry mob trying to ethnic cleanse Chinese, I think, is justified.

[The_Zergling]

Some valid points above, but I would also like to note that the definition of what constitutes a "Chinese national" isn't very clear.

For instance in Indonesia many of the "Chinese Nationals" you are talking about basically have been there for many generations. They may look "oriental" (meaning looking like people from China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and not Indian, Pakistani, Vietnamese... you get the drift. I just don't want to use the phrase "Asian") but they're basically Indonesians.

That's not to say there isn't some animosity or tension between "Real Indonesians" and "Chinese Indonesians" however one must question what the duties of a government are. In this case the Chinese Indonesians have been in Indonesia... well, nearly as long as Black people have been in the States. Where do you draw the line? And why? Because they have similiar external characteristics? Or because they immigrated to Indonesia from your country several hundreds of years ago?

This has been a topic of interest for me, especially after I visited Indonesia last summer. We frequented with some "Chinese" Indonesian kids, and I couldn't really note any affiliation to "The Motherland". They spoke Indonesian, many of them didn't know how to speak Chinese (courtesy of the recently lifted ban by the Indonesian government) and as far as I can tell their home was Indonesia.

This was even more strongly apparent because our job was to teach them about life and language in Taiwan because the government had funded a project to help a group of them go to college in Taiwan, and return to Indonesia. Externally we all looked alike, but it was obvious where their loyalties lied. So it's hard to say whether China has any jurisdiction over people who left their country hundreds of years ago.

[isthvan]

I don't think analogy works. The mobs in Paris (if this is what you're referring to), are protesting wages! The mobs in Syria were not going around targetting a specific ethnic minority in their country. They're just saying "we're angry."

Trust me, there are MANY countries in the world where they absolutely hate the Chinese. I think just about everywhere where there is a big population of Chinese, many of the locals dislike them.

When an angry mob starts ethnic cleansing Chinese people (like in Indonesia), I see no reason why they should be considered "civilians." They are committing an atrocity, and China must step in and help the overseas Chinese!

The closest analogy I can think of is the state of Israel going after people who deliberately kill jews in other countries. Usually they do it by having Mossad assassinate. A Tu-160 Blackjack strike into the heart of an angry mob trying to ethnic cleanse Chinese, I think, is justified.

Roger I admit that my analogy was wrong (even if some Dutch and other Europeans were killed or abducted during cartoon riots in Muslim countries) but only because I misunderstood what you are trying to say. I have thought of scenario were you have riot that is gone to hell and civilians looting shops and attacking minorities and not Hutu – Tutsi kind of scenario which you describe… But even in situations you describe military intervention in form of police action like Sampan Vikings scenario is only correct thing to do… By doing so you are protecting your nationals and restoring low and order… Bombing mobs would bring only negative publicity and would only bring more suffering to Chinese population in that country… Mobs would just retaliate on them…

[SampanViking]

I would add to that that the Mossad analagy is also useless for a Mob riot. This is an infrastructure you set up to target politically/religously motivated groups who are driving the targting of your citizens. In other words this to combat deliberate and directed attacks.

If such groups do exist, the precdents set by the war against terror is probably good enough for China to set its special ops forces to eliminating them. Although to be honest, if such groups existed I would be surprised if this was not happening anyway.

This of course is not for Unfriendly Govts, Asassination would be very counter productive, botched Asassination a Diplomatic disaster.

Zergling is also right, A country only has a duty to its own citizens, I think a commitment to a greater China in this way would unsettle a lot of "Greater Chinese" and a lot of the countries of which they were citizens.

[KYli]

China could hardly interfere with that. If they are able to, just to a limited extent. Take note that many Overseas Chinese are not Chinese citizens; therefore, not protected by the Chinese laws. But eventhrough China don't have the jurisdiction and obligation to do so, doesn't imply China should let these discrimiation actions happened over and over again. Through people suggested that it was wrong for China to help Oversea Chinese, since they are not Chinese citizens are simply too ignorant.

So how do you suggest Indonesia Chinese to protect themselves, let's face it. The Indonesian government is unbelievably corrupt and whenever the economy is doing badly in Indonesia, people look for scape goats. The Chinese community is a handy scapegoat because some of them are very rich, tend to keep to themselves. There are also religious differences as well, namely between Indonesia's large Muslim population and the Chinese minority.

And so, whenever the government looks bad in the eyes of the native Indonesians, they deflect all the blame onto the rich Chinese. And guess what, the average poor Indonesian believes them and then riots and violence happens. So even poor ethnic Chinese get attacked.

[SampanViking]

Hi Kyli

There is a big difference between help and military intervention.

I have heard of the Emperor of China I never heard of the Emperor of the Chinese and this is the scale of difference you seem to be suggesting.

If a National Govt is waging a campaign against its Chinese minority, then yes you should expect China to direct its displeasure against the offending govt, you should also expect the world community UN etc to be vigourous in its condemnation.

Otherwise, without a Govt directing the attacks, you are back to a Police Action.

[Finn McCool]

On that note, and maybe dangerously, I am surprised nobody has mentioned Nepal, which as an Ally of China, bordering a sensitive area, could be a prime candidate for a Police Action.

This could happen as a last ditch invitation by the King in order to retain his position, or after the event if the whole country descended into chaos.



I wrote about that event, hypothetically, in the PLAN chokepoints thread, except it was India intervening to prevent chaos and Maoist takeover. In my hypothetical scenario, the Chinese decided they did not want India to succed in its venture and assited the Maoists, starting a Sino-Indian war.

About ethnic unrest, I think it is a situaiton-specific sort of thing. But if China wants to send a message that it is a true world and regional player, as well as gain some international legitamacy, then intervening in a poor country to end ethinc/political strife is a good move. Think about it. Only rich, Western countries are the ones you see intervening in other countries "for their own good". By doing that, China helps to establish its self as a member of the international community every bit as legitimate as the US, Britain or France.

[The_Zergling]

Through people suggested that it was wrong for China to help Oversea Chinese, since they are not Chinese citizens are simply too ignorant.

So how do you suggest Indonesia Chinese to protect themselves, let's face it. The Indonesian government is unbelievably corrupt and whenever the economy is doing badly in Indonesia, people look for scape goats. The Chinese community is a handy scapegoat because some of them are very rich, tend to keep to themselves. There are also religious differences as well, namely between Indonesia's large Muslim population and the Chinese minority.

And so, whenever the government looks bad in the eyes of the native Indonesians, they deflect all the blame onto the rich Chinese. And guess what, the average poor Indonesian believes them and then riots and violence happens. So even poor ethnic Chinese get attacked.

Valid points, however what I was addressing was that where does the Chinese government draw the line? I wasn't suggesting that the Chinese government should simply ignore the plight of oppressed people around the world, but one must wonder how far obligations go, and why. Should China protect (and possibly intervene in other country's internal affairs) to protect 5th or 6th generation Chinese immigrants? 4th generation? 3rd generation? Are they Chinese simply because they look "Oriental"? Or because of where their ancestors came from? If so, I can argue a pretty strong slippery slope...

[KYli]

Hi Sampanviking and Hi Zerling

since both of you are asking the same question, I would answer them in one post.

I am not suggesting or implying that what happened in the Solomon Islands incident needed military intervention, or Chinese government should do otherwise. Actually what China has done so far, was the best solution on this situation. I totally don't have problem with it, and there is no dispute on this point of view.

But I do disagree that China could not do more than what they had done, I think there are many different categories of ethnics conflict, and quick frankly what had happened in Solomon Islands was only minor incident.

1. What happened in Solomon Islands was just native residents turned their hatred and dissatification toward Chinese, and the government did not protected Chinese or they had the ability to do so. This in term only needed diplomacy and political pressure to make the Solomon islands government to be more responsible and do more to protect Chinese. And China could also send in civilian airplane to pick up ethnic Chinese, so what Chinese government was doing is what it should be.

2. What happened in Indonesia was totally difference, the riots and discrimation were wide spead. And the government didn't protected Chinese, they also tried to blame Chinese as the problems of their failed policies and corruption. The Indonesia government also somewhat encourage the natives to attack Chinese Indonesians, as a result chinese were targeted of riots and many were killed. This in term will need more actions from chinese government. I would not suggest a military intervention, but China could send in their navy or military to get the Chinese Indoesnians out of the country if diplomacy does not work.

3. The last one will be ethnic genocide of overseas Chinese, which should call upon military intervention if necessary. I knew that these were overseas descendants of Chinese migrants are citizens of another country, but the relationship between them and China is special enough for the government of China to intervene politically for these people on the basis on their ancestry.

But as citizens of Indonesia or whatever, these overseas Chinese are nationals of their respective countries. If the government China intervenes, it should be on the basis of them as human beings.

Of course the intervention should only occurs when there are no longer any alternatives left within the situation. As the state that fails to protect it's citizens, the first thing Chinese governments should do is to send in the helicopters and Warships to bring out Chinese. It didn't matter whether they were already citizens of the country, so long as they were Chinese, they will be lift out. If the country refused to accept peaceful intervention to let Chinese out of the country and continued to killed Chinese, then China should call upon the UN to moblize their force to launch an attack on the respective country in small scale to demotrate that they were serious. As long as the genocide stopped, China should not be overly extend their persent in the respective state. For the overseas Chinese China should ensure their safty before they left, or if it is impossible china could always take them back.

[Gaginang]

regarding to the chinese evacuate the chinese indonesian, it's pointless because no chinese indonesian would go to china. the motherland. and become to the slave of chinese, while they live like king indonesia.

the chinese indonesian had lived prosperately with the indonesian natives for centuries. the chinese were target in the recent riots a few years back, were from jealousy of chinese business success.

militarily indonesia is a tough beat for the chinese. indonesia do have a quiet impressive navy crack with.

[Nethappy]

Originally Posted by Gaginang
regarding to the chinese evacuate the chinese indonesian, it's pointless because no chinese indonesian would go to china. the motherland. and become to the slave of chinese, while they live like king indonesia.

What do u mean slave of Chinese?
How much do u know about life in China?
For a matter of fact have you ever been there?

Well, if the roit was really bad enough, some chinese might going back to the motherland. Better alive then being king and dead.
Not the whole ethnic chinese population in Indonesian were really rich. It was only a minority of the chinese Indonesian were rich.

Originally Posted by Gaginang
Militarily indonesia is a tough beat for the chinese. Indonesia do have a quiet impressive navy crack with.
Indonesia navy crack more info pls!
From my knowledge even the Aussie Navy can knock out the Indonesia Navy.

Originally Posted by KYli
Of course the intervention should only occurs when there are no longer any alternatives left within the situation. As the state that fails to protect it's citizens, the first thing Chinese governments should do is to send in the helicopters and Warships to bring out Chinese. It didn't matter whether they were already citizens of the country, so long as they were Chinese, they will be lift out. If the country refused to accept peaceful intervention to let Chinese out of the country and continued to killed Chinese, then China should call upon the UN to moblize their force to launch an attack on the respective country in small scale to demotrate that they were serious. As long as the genocide stopped, China should not be overly extend their persent in the respective state. For the overseas Chinese China should ensure their safty before they left, or if it is impossible china could always take them back.

KYli, I can understand you stance and I hope the Chinese Govt. can protect all the ethnic Chinese in the world too. Nevertheless, it not always possible.
Everything has too be done according to internation laws, some time not even the UN Security Counil can do anyway when it's a Nation Internal matter. Most of the time the Chinese Govt. only option in these crisis is to extend it political pressures on the related country, with the exception that Chinese citizens a involed were as a military option is available when all political option fail.

For matter of fact, some time is not the Chinese govt. don't want to help the ethnice Chinese but it also because of the consequence.
In the worse situation it may lend to open war and the possible that US would jump at the opportunity to damage as much of PLA as they can.
Politically and soft power is really Chinese best option.

[KYli]

regarding to the chinese evacuate the chinese indonesian, it's pointless because no chinese indonesian would go to china. the motherland. and become to the slave of chinese, while they live like king indonesia.

the chinese indonesian had lived prosperately with the indonesian natives for centuries. the chinese were target in the recent riots a few years back, were from jealousy of chinese business success.

militarily indonesia is a tough beat for the chinese. indonesia do have a quiet impressive navy crack with.
If there are some Chinese don't want to go to China, they could always have the choice to go to third countries. And I strongly disagree there would not be many Chinese want to return back to motherland, you might not known there are many Weathy indonesia fujainese Chinese who lived in Xiamen. I knew it because after what had happened in 1998, many of them flee from Indonesia and came to Xiamen. Yeah, some of them go to other countries, but still send their children to Xiamen for education. So do not give me the BS about they would be slave of China, you just don't know enough to say it. BTW I am a fujianese.

There are many rich and weathy Indonesia who live in very comfortable life in Indonesia, but there are also many poor Chinese Indonesians who want to have better lives elsewhere. Of course it might not necessary be China, but you can't rule out many of them would like to back China. Actually when China abandon the dual citizens in 1955, there are quick a lot of outcry from Indonesia Chinese.

After the Asia Financial crisis, Indoesnia really don't stand a chance against Chinese Navy, it would take time for them to rebuilt their force upto what they are capable in 1998. I wouldn't even think there are remote possibility that Indonesia could defeat Chinese Navy, if you don't believe me ask anyone here which are not Chinese.


KYli, I can understand you stance and I hope the Chinese Govt. can protect all the ethnic Chinese in the world too. Nevertheless, it not always possible.
Everything has too be done according to internation laws, some time not even the UN Security Counil can do anyway when it's a Nation Internal matter. Most of the time the Chinese Govt. only option in these crisis is to extend it political pressures on the related country, with the exception that Chinese citizens a involed were as a military option is available when all political option fail.

For matter of fact, some time is not the Chinese govt. don't want to help the ethnice Chinese but it also because of the consequence.
In the worse situation it may lend to open war and the possible that US would jump at the opportunity to damage as much of PLA as they can.
Politically and soft power is really Chinese best option
I knew that it wasn't possible sometime, but I just think China should do the share to help Overseas Chinese especially in the South east Asia. China had let down these people many time from the Ming Dynasty to Today, how many genocides are conducting toward Chinese. But the Chinese government never acted to protect them, just because it would be difficult does not mean it should not worth the efforts. It don't have to be military intervention, but more politcal pressure and right diplomacy always help. You have to understand when the CCP want to spread Communism in SEA, how many harms has been done to these people. I just want to see China do more.

Of course everything should act according to international laws, I would not suggest otherwise.

But there are quick many incidents that US and western nations send in their military to airlifed their people. As far as I remember that they had airlifed every white in Rwanda even the citizens of Rwanda as long as they were white. So China could do the same, just they should be more careful and only acted when all other options are out.

Actually how many countries really care about internation laws, as far as I knew US and Israel always broke them or get around them.:)

I think there should be no afraid of US military intervention if these were only humanitary aisstance, even if US got involved. China could claim the moral high ground, as long as China did not exposed the situations for political interest. US could not do significant damage if China only got in and get out quickly just enough to help the overseas Chinese. But of course all of these would has to be done only all options are unavailable, also there really are genocide toward the Overseas Chinese. Also China should only do it according in the international laws.

[Nethappy]

Of course everything should act according to international laws, I would not suggest otherwise. But there are quick many incidents that US and western nations send in their military to airlifed their people, as far as I remember that they had airlifed every white in Rwanda even the citizens of Rwanda as long as they were white. So China could do the same, just they should be more careful and only acted when all other options are out. Actually how many countries really care about internation laws, as far as I knew US and Israel always broke them or get around them.

I think there should be no afraid of US military intervention if these were only humanitary aisstance, even if US got involved. China could claim the moral high ground, as long as China did not exposed the situations for political interest. US could not do significant damage if China only got in and get out quickly just enough to help the overseas Chinese. But of course all of these would has to be done only all options are unavailable, also there really are genocide toward the Overseas Chinese.

As far as I know the Rwanda opt was aproved by UN SC, any military intervention by the Chinese need to be UN SC approved. Otherwise it doesn't really even matter if China claim the moral high ground, the US or country wich the gencide is in can offical claim the rescue mission as an invasion.

Many country really care for internation laws, and I think China should obey these laws. That would in time allow China to be in the moral high ground.

I agree with you that CHINA should help overseas Chinese.

[Gollevainen]

Ok, do i smell nationalism in here?? Dry to keep it down, and focus more on the actual topic, not squabeling about where can outside chinese go and on what motives...

Ps. and Indonesia has quite impressive navy, maybe not similar in size as in china, but still very potent opponent against what ever PLAN could send to their back waters....Wheter they will beat chinese or not, is different question, but PLAN today isent that impressive, to be bratteled on distant invertion operations, which require power projection capapility

[KYli]

Ok, do i smell nationalism in here?? Dry to keep it down, and focus more on the actual topic, not squabeling about where can outside chinese go and on what motives...

Ps. and Indonesia has quite impressive navy, maybe not similar in size as in china, but still very potent opponent against what ever PLAN could send to their back waters....Wheter they will beat chinese or not, is different question, but PLAN today isent that impressive, to be bratteled on distant invertion operations, which require power projection capapility
Don't worry, Golly. I would never post anything offensive enough or any Nationalism outburst. But I would probably not post in this forum anymore, it would be better for me just spend more time reading posts such as I used to do in many other forums. So no worry;) .

Indonesia Navy was quick impressive, but after Asia Financial Crisis they were no more than than just medium. PLAN might not have the power projection capability, but they still are outnumber and outgun what Indonesia had. Of course I would not suggest it would be easy task for China, but unless Indonesia had more warships and subs they simply were not capable to defend from China's navy assault. Since Indonesia had better economic right now, they would probably do some purchase. So the future will be brighter for Indonesia Navy.


As far as I know the Rwanda opt was aproved by UN SC, any military intervention by the Chinese need to be UN SC approved. Otherwise it doesn't really even matter if China claim the moral high ground, the US or country wich the gencide is in can offical claim the rescue mission as an invasion.

Many country really care for internation laws, and I think China should obey these laws. That would in time allow China to be in the moral high ground.

I agree with you that CHINA should help overseas Chinese
I agreed with you that China should act only upon international law, I would not suggest otherwise. My implication was that many countries didn't fellowed international law, but not necessary China should do the same. I might write the post too fast, and get you confused so I would edit it now.:)

[SampanViking]

One brief point.

If deliberate genocide was being waged against a Chinese population, this would be a very different situation. The United Nations is under an obligation to intervene with massive and decisive force in such situations and China is of course a Permenant Member of the Security Council.

I do not think you can easily generalise on this subject, each instance would really need to be judged on its particulars. World opinion and the appearance of proportionality are all important and any reaction would be weighed carefully in these scales.

These are probably factors which will affect China's ability to fight these small wars even more than its military capabilites.

[Finn McCool]

Well, we can see one thing from all this. China is going to need to adjust to the constraints of superpower-dom. It never had these sorts of problems before, and things world opinion and proportional response in military action are things that the PRC has never had to deal with before. They might make some mistakes.