Tube Missile Artillery: How do they find their targets?

[DF-31 Driver]

I was looking at some of the tube artillery and was wondering how the aiming systems worked. Do they fire blindly or are the missiltes themselves guided by some sort of laser system, are they heat seeking or are they manually guided? The specific type that I am interested in is the A-100 long range.

Note:Since this is my first topic, if this is a repeat, please close this and direct me to a better thread.

[rommel]

Well, depending of the kind of rocket, but most of the artillery rocket use a inertial guidance system. A inertial guidance system is a inertial measurment unit combined with the control of the rocket, will guide the rocket onto position.

How it work, it's the inertial measurement unit (IMU) is composed of accelerometers, altimeters, motion meters and other sensors. In fact, the IMU is a calculator that calculate the position of the rocket by determining the variation from the initial position. But this kind of guidance is prone to error, because all the instruments are never exact and also the fact that the rocket is moving cause error also. But a IMU is far less costy than a GPS Guidance System. So that's why we use this kind of system for artillery rocket, it's mainly lost cost because rocket artillery are design to hit a zone, not a accurate target.

If you have more question, just ask.

[DF-31 Driver]

So it is basically a computer in the missile, or is it guided from the truck?

Anyways, thanks for the info. Considering that they are not very accurate, are they really that effective in a war? I mean if they are just aiming for a general reigion, wouldn't they be more like ly to kill civilians than actual important targets??

Thanks for all of the info.

[rommel]

Yes, it's basically a computer/supercalculator in the rocket...

Well, for the cost, their are really effective, and also, their are used to hit a concentration of troops mainly, or a big wide position. There's also a moral effect since you never fire those rocket alone, you will always fire a volley with at least an entire battery. So imagine, a few dozen or hundred rocket hit your position, and rocket sometime have more payload than an artillery shell, so it's devasting... To give you some fact, the CPE (circular propable error) of an artillery rocket is around 5m-40m depending on the model, it's not accurate. Well, it's sad to say, but weapon and military equipement was not designed to be convenient with the civilian, they are conceived to kill and be the most efficient possible... yes, if there's a civilian in the sector, he could be hit too...To give you some idea, a 40-tube 122mm rockets BM-21 (Russian) truck can easily bombard the equivalent of area of 2 soccer field with 1 volley of 40 rockets... And normally, a russian rocket battalion is made of 18 truck, that mean each volley will be of 720 rocket... Normally, NATO's combat doctrine don't use those rockets in urban warfare and in any situation were you need poinpoint support, because it destroy the entire area... It's very effective...

[duskylim]

Dear Sirs:

In college I volunteered (yes! how stupid can you get?) for field artillery. Here's what I remember.

Artillery, whether conventional tube or rocket, is an area-denial weapon. Although pin point accuracy is desireable it is not always neccesary to do the job properly. Accuracy is expressed in terms of circular-mils as a fraction of the weapons' range. Essentially two figures are given: one expresses the weapons dispersion in range (in the direction of the shot) and the other laterally (from side to side). Generally the lateral dispersion is smaller by a factor of two or more. As you can see, the closer the target, the smaller the dispersion and the better the accuracy. As you shoot farther, accuracy diminishes and shot dispersion increases.

Guns or launchers are grouped together in units called batterys, comprising from four to eight guns. Targets are assigned to each battery and each is attacked as a "fire mission" wherein a certain number of rounds are fired to assure destruction of the target. Most large ballistic rockets are both fin and spin stabilized. They are fired succesively one after the other in "ripples" so as not to affect each others tragectory. As an example the BM-21 takes 15 to 20 seconds to fire all forty rockets.

Most tube artillery is aimed via a goniometer (or panoramic telescope, the "pan-tel"), that is if the gun is not automatically laid on the target. To use it a line on a map is drawn through the weapon's location pointing to true north, and another through an aiming point and target. Subtract the 1st angle from the second, then dial in the number of degrees, minutes (and seconds!) on the goniometer. Traverse the weapon until the aiming point appears in the goniometer and the weapon is laid in azimuth. To lay the weapon in elevation consult the firing tables, select the ammunition to be fired, the number of charges to be used, the wear on the gun barrel, factor in some meteorological data and read setting off the table, dial it in, and then elevate the gun until the spirit bubble is centered.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[Nethappy]

In college I volunteered (yes! how stupid can you get?) for field artillery. Here's what I remember.

Stupid??? I voluntereed for service since high school, if u think your stupid. What am I?

You Artillery men rock, us infantry love you guy. Same go for you Golly. Our life would be a laughting stock without you guy. When we run in to trouble what do we do? Get on the radio, find some cover then watch the show. :roll:

[Gollevainen]

In college I volunteered (yes! how stupid can you get?) for field artillery. Here's what I remember.

well i did exactly the same mistake in my drafting session...but anywya, welcome to the club, You are only seccond ever artilleryman (after me ) in this forum. Did you serve in the actual gungroup and get to fire them, or just in some HQ branch?

And thanks for the input, it was propaply better that i could have given, as Im not so familar whit the english terms of artillery gizmoes.

expesially about the aiming of the gun...thougth it reaised some questions...Does the goniometer mean collimeter? At least that what we called the device that was set about 3 meters away from the gun and in the aiming we looked trough the aiming telescope to get the numbers and cyrilic letters machs...

Also, i understand from your post that you simply took the location data of the battery ou of map, then positioned the gun barrels into the north, then calculate the degree difference and then fire the guns into that direction???

Sounds rather innaccurate to me, if you compare how we did it with the old soviet guns. We had these dedicated survey teams that meassured known ordinates from known spot and transferred them via simple queue
survey method to the battery's so called 'basic point' of where the data was given to the each guns wiht simple theodolite. But when we played around the new finnish made guns, we simple inputted the known ordinates to the guns firecomputer in the homebase...then drove a 900kms to the north and the gun knew exactly where it were. When we came to the fireposition we just pressed one buttom and the gun sended it's exact location to the HQ battery via radio. The Hq sends the firingdata via the same channel and you just aim the gun looking to the screen and when it says good in horizontal and vertical...So when the data arrives, a good aimer (like Me) can aim the gun in mere secconds...

[isthvan]

Stupid??? I voluntereed for service since high school, if u think your stupid. What am I?

You Artillery men rock, us infantry love you guy. Same go for you Golly. Our life would be a laughting stock without you guy. When we run in to trouble what do we do? Get on the radio, find some cover then watch the show. :roll:

Agreed, we may be complaining all the time about you worthless artillery f…., sitting on your asses and sleeping while real man are doing dirty jobs but when we are in deep shit we call you boys to save our ass:) …
And if we have luck and God decides to help us you even manage to hit what we tell you and not our sorry asses;)

[Nethappy]

Agreed, we may be complaining all the time about you worthless artillery f…., sitting on your asses and sleeping while real man are doing dirty jobs but when we are in deep shit we call you boys to save our ass …
And if we have luck and God decides to help us you even manage to hit what we tell you and not our sorry asses

Haha, I remember our Captain once said during traning "If it the early in the morining and your in trouble dun bother calling for the artillery cos these lasy ass are still possibly having thier hang over, use your LAW as an artillery."

[Gollevainen]

yeah...in here the artillery is basicly a midd section between 'security classes' in school and prison...and way too often I hear the expression dum, dummer, gunner...
But people in military forums tend to forget that not all military is beeing fighter pilot or some SAS member. Artillery still is the main factor of any conventional land war, in terms of destroying the enemy. Infantry just advances and controll the area after artillery (and in some occasion, air support) have crushed the enemies moral backbone.

[Nethappy]

yeah...in here the artillery is basicly a midd section between 'security classes' in school and prison...and way too often I hear the expression dum, dummer, gunner...
But people in military forums tend to forget that not all military is beeing fighter pilot or some SAS member. Artillery still is the main factor of any conventional land war, in terms of destroying the enemy. Infantry just advances and controll the area after artillery (and in some occasion, air support) have crushed the enemies moral backbone.

Golly it cool, was just joking mate.
Hey not just SAS, any SF and infanty should value their artillery boyz. We move in to control stuff, but our real firepower come from the artillery and air support without them we have little if any chance of winning a fight.

Well in modern warfare, the infanty usually move in frist then call on for pin point fire support from the artillery. As wide area artillery strike normally cause to much collateral damage which is normally unacceptable in modern low intensive warfare.

[Gollevainen]

but its notworthy that as todays european armyes move more towards 'cirisi-response' and other disguised 'lets-occupy-some-poor-thrid-world-country' type of operations, traditional artillery comes as immobile and expensive branch. Recent news of sweden completely retiring its artillery arent good news. Artillery is pretty much sience, and thougth it mostly requires brute force and good build mens, it requires much brain and mathemathical skills and If the whole tradition is suddenly cut off...there migth not be change to reviela it, when needed.

[isthvan]

but its notworthy that as todays european armyes move more towards 'cirisi-response' and other disguised 'lets-occupy-some-poor-thrid-world-country' type of operations, traditional artillery comes as immobile and expensive branch. Recent news of sweden completely retiring its artillery arent good news. Artillery is pretty much sience, and thougth it mostly requires brute force and good build mens, it requires much brain and mathemathical skills and If the whole tradition is suddenly cut off...there migth not be change to reviela it, when needed.

Retiring artillery is completely dumb… They don’t understand that you always have to have some kind of support available for the troops… And artillery is still most cost effective way to do that, not to mention that it has best response time… I believe that future of artillery is great especially whit new Caesar type guns and Excalibur and Krasnopol types of grenades… So Golly don’t be afraid, there will be few more generations of grunts making jokes about you artillery boys;-)

[Nethappy]

but its notworthy that as todays european armyes move more towards 'cirisi-response' and other disguised 'lets-occupy-some-poor-thrid-world-country' type of operations, traditional artillery comes as immobile and expensive branch. Recent news of sweden completely retiring its artillery arent good news. Artillery is pretty much sience, and thougth it mostly requires brute force and good build mens, it requires much brain and mathemathical skills and If the whole tradition is suddenly cut off...there migth not be change to reviela it, when needed.

Retiring artillery??? That the stupidest i any government or arm force can do.
Artillery is ancient, but it always have it value on the battlefield, there arn't going be anything better then traditional artillery when it come to quick fire support. Some would argue air support could do the job, but most countries aren't like the US they dun have enough plane for the job. There going be a future for artillery if any country really care for their solider.

[duskylim]

Dear Goll (hope you don't mind the nickname),

Here in the Philippines, we get a little basic infantry training in high school, then the more serious stuff in college. There's a saying that in the military you don't volunteer for anything! I think generally it's good advice - you never know what craziness the officers will think of next.

I took mechanical engineering in college and if you have a little advanced math training the officers pressure you into joining the artillery. At the time I thought it would be nice to have the actual experience of firing real guns so I joined. Our organizational system here is patterned after the American system so the officer is the master gunner (the man who commands the gun) and the fellow who does all the calculating neccesary (me) is his assistant gunner.

We have eight (8) other men assigned as "cannoneers" who help to move the gun around. They are picked from anywhere as they only have to be strong and willing. The officer controls the weapons traverse wheel, and I control the elevation wheel. I also get to pull the firing lanyard (a short rope that triggers the gun) when the order to fire is given! The actual American organization calls for just six (6) cannoneers but as we are a smaller people we just add more men.

Our standard weapon here is the American M-1, 105 mm howitzer, usually World War II vintage. It weighs 2.5 tons and is towed into action by a six-by-six truck. It fires IIRC, a "case-type, variable-charge, separate-loading ammunition" of which the standard round is high explosive, which weighs 33 lbs (about 15 kilos). Unlike most other pieces, it does not have a separate firing baseplate, so that you must be particularly careful as you set up for firing. It also has a limited amount of traverse, only 30 degrees total (15 degrees left and 15 degrees right), so if the target is beyond these limits you tell you cannoneers to move the trail left or right.

The gunner (officer) and assitant gunner (me) get to ride in front with the driver and the rest of the men ride behind with the ammunition. Ahh, the good life! This was a major perk for me, as most of the time the infantry moves around on foot! We got to ride and our truck was never far away. The complete battery includes the guns and their crews, our trucks and a communications team (with their own jeep) . The battalion also has a survey and reconnaisance team, as well as the forward observers and liason guys.

As to your question about aiming I think what your referring to as a collimeter is the surveyor's transit (theodolite) used by the artillery survey team to lay out our position exactly on the maps. The instruments we used were mounted directly on the piece. We did most of our firing by map, as we don't have any advanced gun-laying systems here. Everything is manual. We recently got a battery of Singapore 155 mm gun-howitzers, but the're special and not standard weapons.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[lazzydigger]

Hi boys.

As a ex-grunt, we loves the artillery. We are also dreaded about them. Enemy fire or "friendly fire" Air burst shells are mightmares.

I haven't got any chance to to play with the big boys. But as grunt we all required to be trained with "all arms call for fire" and Mortar handling. Mortar is the mean fire support at Australian company level. It is light, effective. The set up of the mortar is still quite manual here in the OZ land.

Once the base plate is layed. poles are set up according to compass. and location is ploted on the map via compass ( I know.. this method is old.. but it works. GPS can be used too, if u can get them).

Most 82mm shell don't have Eyes, it just controlled by the number of gunpowerpacked and trajectory. It is up to infantry or artilleryman attached to patrols. Poor bugger have to sling a rifle and crawl in mud just like the rest of us. No truck/rover for him.

Once fire support is needed, grunt give the relative location to their position. base will plot it on map, and give cordinates to lead gun. normally 3 test rounds are fired to "step" on target. Once "fire for effect" is given, it will be a nice show. Phrosphor air bursts are particularly nasty.

We grunt are the eyes for the gun. This is why Australian troop casualty in vietnam is so much lower. lots of combat patrol at section level to seek out enemy position, call to rain some fire, and leave with out a trace. They never know it coming.

Cheers

[Gollevainen]

Hi duskylim...

I was normal conscript in Finnish army and served in the artillery regiment of one of our three rapid-reaction brigades. The regiment had three training batteryes and one NCO school. (so it was in practise, a battalion) I was in the fireposition battery which trained the actual guncrews. We first practised wiht soviet D-30, 122mm howitser weighting some 3 tons. But our main weapon (in wartime) was to be the new finnish 155mm/52cal gun-howitser weighting about 14tons.

Our guncrew consisted 1 NCO as a gunleader (similar as your master gunner), aimer (which is propaply same as your assistant gunner) which I was, Loader, The guy who puts the ammunition to the chamber, charger, ammunition man 1&2. As aimer, i controlled all the traverse and elevation wheels and the aiming devices. The gunleader just checked that the numbers where correct. Gun leader mainly operated the radio and led the crew. In our longest firing camps, our gunleader had to go audition to some Finnish TV series, so as aimer I was seccond to command and i become the gunleader.

the other roles were only theorethical and the guys changed their roles according to their moods. Whit the 155mm, the aimer operated all the hydraulics and was supposed to drive the gun (it had APU)...but as i didnt have driving license, some other guy drowe the gun...which was actually more faster and flexible system.

But otherwise that sounds rather familiar to our lives....we didnt marched or skiied much, mainly drove whit our cross-country trucks...i sitted also in the front (expect when our gunleader wasent making his TV career, the platoon leader was with ours, as we were the number one gun)...a pleasent thing when we moved from our garrison to the long lapland firingcamp of 900km...My brother who served in the battalions HQ survey team had to spend the whole trip in the back of the lorry...


But of the gunlaying system, the collimator was special auxillary tool whit the fixed guns aming device...some brilliant russian innovation. There was the surveyteams theodolites and idea of firing basicly with the map almoust horrifies me...but guess its due the differences between Finlands and Philiphines civil infrastructures and carthocraphy.

[Nethappy]

lazzydigger when did u quit service?

Despite this old method is still in use, most grunt unit nowaday has a GPS and a laser-range finder in the squad, it provide much more accuracy cordinates and at time allow frist round hit possible.

[duskylim]

Hi Guys!

The Philippines may have the weakest and poorest armed forces in the region, (Cambodia and Laos are poorer in per capita GNP but because of the past wars have probably more equipment), so we have to make do. There is no way we can replace artillery with aircraft as we even can't maintain our airforce. Humiliatingly enough, the AirForce only held a parade during their anniversary as there were no viable aircraft to fly!

When I joined the field artillery, we first trained on mortars; specifically old US Army surplus 81 mm battalion mortars. Thats right! In the Philippine army, mortars larger than 60mm are organic to the artillery not the infantry! The base plate is immensely heavy and is made from a very rough and crude cast iron. The mortar tube itself must be 20 kilos or more and an ugly black ball is cast into it's base. The only smooth and machined part is the bipod assembly.
The goniometer (panoramic telescope) was attached to the bipod.

If you think about it, the mortars were good for training us. Firstly, they were plentiful and easier to handle. Second everything is smaller and lighter. Third, the principles, techniques and even appearance of the goniometer we used were the same as for the howitzer. And lastly, (probably most important) they were much, much cheaper to shoot. I would recommend them for training budding artillerymen.

The Philippines is a tropical country and we have only two types of weather, dry (like a desert) and wet (monsoon). During the dry season its easier to move about because the ground is very hard and can bear a lot of weight. During the wet season, operations are nearly impossible due to flooding and mud, mud, mud.

Most of the time, the guns stay on or near the roads, so that movement and resupply are not a problem (and not just resupply for the guns, especially for the gunners!). Still because there are old (WW2 vintage) and not well maintained (hard to get spare parts), accuracy is only fair. We do not make the ammo, so we shop around (last time I heard we bought Pakistani made ammo).

And yes Goll, we had to rely on maps. Lucky enough the main map-making facility is operated by the Army (called NAMRIA National Mapping and Resource Information Center, endowed by the Germans!) so we could get good scale maps. Just look how they did it in WW1 and WW2. We even used an old US Army manual for training!

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[Gollevainen]

So mortars goes whit the artillery. That migth be reasonable whit small and 'poor' armed forces. In here the 81mm were trained in the infantry battalions, but the 120mm's thougth part of the infantry battalion organisation were trained in the artillery regiment. But our 'real' artillery mens branch-dignity called total refusal to feel 'kinship' to the mortar mens. they were as bad 'opponents' to us as were the engineers...in the weird internal picking order...

The poor conditions are the agony of all artillerymens. In here the ground is muddy in the summertime and hard as a rock in wintertimes...not to mention about the actual rocks that you need to dig bellow the guns trailing legs...But about the support, exspecially like you mentioned, the support of the men is extremely important issue, at least from the actual mens perspective. Our food always arrived to the battery's HQ and we had to send few guys to fetch the food to the entire grew...and the HQ ususally was about mile away from the guns...Did you have the same propelm?

[isthvan]

Golly this weekend I talked whit friend who served in artillery. He served in D-30 battery and he described basically the same things you have described…
Only difference is that he says that they also used GPS for determining position of the battery and that forward artillery observer use GPS and laser range finders to get more exact target coordinates…

[Gollevainen]

Well i quess the difference is countrybased, each having their own methods. Our positioning meassurement was old, dating from the 1920's. And GPS isent the most accurate system, expecially in the old days when US officals deliberatly jammed the signal to not to give accurate information. It was said to my brother who was in the artillery survey teams that the GPS device that they had could provide same level of accuracy as the compass, and that the accuracy of compass survey was that scale that only in wartime it would have been accepted. But notably GPS is going to be future for artillery, as well as Galileo when it gets ready...

[isthvan]

Well i quess the difference is countrybased, each having their own methods. Our positioning meassurement was old, dating from the 1920's. And GPS isent the most accurate system, expecially in the old days when US officals deliberatly jammed the signal to not to give accurate information. It was said to my brother who was in the artillery survey teams that the GPS device that they had could provide same level of accuracy as the compass, and that the accuracy of compass survey was that scale that only in wartime it would have been accepted. But notably GPS is going to be future for artillery, as well as Galileo when it gets ready...

Well Golly he said that they used GPS only as supplementary method… They use old ways too… As for GPS accuracy you can increase accuracy of GPS system by using ground emitters as reference points (DGPS)… Not weary useful if you are planning to have expeditionary force but great for small country’s like ours are…

[Gollevainen]

Yeas. they sometimes used GPS in our battalion to ceck out the results of survey and aiming trainings. Lot offcoures depends on how much there is geographic fixed points avialable to the survey teams and how accurate are the information on these...

[duskylim]

Dear Goll,

Yes resupply was a constant problem with the roads being bad, especially during monsoon. Although ammunition and military supplies were a problem, food and drink were not. Let me explain. You see, we were college students and had a small stipend as well as some money from the parents. In the Philippines there are always small stores where you can buy canned food and drinks (particularly alcohol).

So we would all chip in and buy additional food for us and the men. You can even ask them to cook it for you if you buy enough and are willing to pay a little more. This was not an option for the infantry as they were in the field (we were close to the roads) and had no trucks. They had to wait for the food or buy it and carry it with them. Yes that's not unusual here. Many times the food doesn't arrive.

It was a little extravagant and expensive to have to regularly by food and drink for the men but nothing builds unit solidarity better! Especially if you buy beer or gin at night!

Regards,

Dusky Lim

[lazzydigger]

lazzydigger when did u quit service?

Despite this old method is still in use, most grunt unit nowaday has a GPS and a laser-range finder in the squad, it provide much more accuracy cordinates and at time allow frist round hit possible.

About 5 years ago. We australian diggers are poor buggers. Also when grunt need to help guncrew to operate the mortar, it is really when shit hits the fang. GPS not nesserily working. At least your map and compass works in most of the situations

[Nethappy]

About 5 years ago. We australian diggers are poor buggers. Also when grunt need to help guncrew to operate the mortar, it is really when shit hits the fang. GPS not nesserily working. At least your map and compass works in most of the situations

I know it bad, but it not that bad. What can we do, we care stuck with what we have. Anyany condition has improved a bit over the years, at lease government spend a bit more money on the army.

[Gollevainen]

Dear Goll,

Yes resupply was a constant problem with the roads being bad, especially during monsoon. Although ammunition and military supplies were a problem, food and drink were not. Let me explain. You see, we were college students and had a small stipend as well as some money from the parents. In the Philippines there are always small stores where you can buy canned food and drinks (particularly alcohol).

So we would all chip in and buy additional food for us and the men. You can even ask them to cook it for you if you buy enough and are willing to pay a little more. This was not an option for the infantry as they were in the field (we were close to the roads) and had no trucks. They had to wait for the food or buy it and carry it with them. Yes that's not unusual here. Many times the food doesn't arrive.

It was a little extravagant and expensive to have to regularly by food and drink for the men but nothing builds unit solidarity better! Especially if you buy beer or gin at night!

Regards,

Dusky Lim



Yeah....We usully shoot in areas where no human inhabitants were near by...so no shops....The garrisons cantine truck sometimes visited us, and We bougth lot of stuff in advance and took it whit us....But having alcohol (or drugs!) were bit more difficoult as they check us out whit dogs before we went into the camps...

[duskylim]

Dear Goll,

Wow! That's a really strict army you've got there. Checked you out with sniffer dogs they did! Here that almost never happens. Just in the city or camps. The Army doesn't really have a lot of dogs outside the canine corps (K9). And the best sniffer dogs are with the police... who stay away from the army cause we got better guns. Once you've left base, most (if not all) of the excess military protocol ends, and nobody wants to make enemies... cause you never know, someone could toss a grenade and frag you at night!

The real secret to surviving was to be ok with the men but not too friendly, I usually kept to my sergeants and corporals, (who were the team leaders), I would give them some of the monetary contribution and they would see to their team. It also served to reinforce their authority as they could choose who to be generous with or not. As a rule however, its very unusual for the men to have drugs (unless we were in drug country and that usually means marijauna...). The great tradition here is that the job (unless there's an emergency) is over at 5:00 PM and after that it's OK to get drunk, just don't make a scene.

Oh my, this is really off topic...

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[Mightypeon]

Well, Germany still had a "Battery" of unmobilized 155 mm which are used for salutation shots and nothing else.
The remainging 12 Battallions are split into 3 M109GA3s and 9 PZH2000 bearing units.
Main reason for continued existance of the M109GA3s (the roughly same old stuff the Americans use) is that they are significantly lighter and therefore easier to move (M109GA3 is pretty light, PZH2000 fully loaded is heavier and longer than a Leo 2-A6).
Targetting is made by GPS, if GPS is unavailable the Computers have inbuilt and more simplistic calculators.
All PZH2000s come with GPS, M109GA3 is upgraded to us it.
Additionally, a PZH2000 can use its computer to calculate distances if no GPS is available, but the crew/or the Feuerleittrupp has to manually input where itself is.
Once Gallileo gets online, the PZH2000 is fully equipped to make the switch (Which means that we can actually jam the evil Americans for a change^^).

If the Computer does not work we resort to map,pen, pencil and calculator like everyone else does.

[duskylim]

Dear Mightypeon,

You crewed a Pzh2000? Wow, some guys have all the luck!!! Here in the boondocks (which incidentally is derived from the Tagalog/Philippine word for mountain - "bundok"), our latest battery of 155 mm Gun-Howitzers (from Singapore) are supposed to have GPS and a 'complimentary' handheld gun computer (looks like a large, rugged green calculator) to set up for firing. The last time I was in Fort Bonifacio, the guns were in the parking lot so I checked them out a little, and as I suspected no APU's... towed all the way!

Doesn't really matter that much as they will be babied and guarded like anything. Also with the 155 mm ammunition being really expensive, for us here in the Philippines at least... I don't suppose they will be used much. Probably end up as display or parade pieces, while the bulk of the shooting will be with the old 105's we trained with.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[Gollevainen]

Good to have more artillerist aboard:) :)

Have I told about the PZH2000 when it was in Rova couple years ago?? (ofcourse i've told, but not in this thread;) )
Acording to our drill instructors, the PZH2000 was doing some trialshooting in our artillery shooting range at Rovajarvi. The system proudly charged to the fireposition and started shooting with suprizingly fast from the deployment...so basicly giving one hell of a appearance from outside...but when they looked where it shot...It didn't performed that well at all. Only few rounds hit to the targetarea...So we finns (without any malicious delight, ofcourse;) ) offered our tradditional meassurement data (which i explained earlier in this thread) and you all know and can quess what the results were...

This story and my other expereinces with GBS makes me bit doupt the it's use as a main firing/posioting device in artillery. It just isen't sharp enough. Our 155K98s, a 155mm/52 cal towed guns with APU used this orginally Raytheons Talin2000 system which was a computerized gyrocompass based system. We drove the gun in this very strictly guided position which we knew the exact co-ordinates and pasted them on the guns computer. Then we towed the gun to Rova, about 900 kms and the gun knew exactly where it was. In the fireposition we just pressed the button and the gun sended the positiondata via radio to the HQ and they sended back the firing values and you were able to fire in 5 mins from deployement (with D-30 it was almoust a hour!)

[Mightypeon]

Woot 5 mins from deployment?

PZH2000 needs 30 seconds to move into position and aim, then it does some 6-12 shots in a minute (depending on the charge-system used) and than it gets the hell out of there, which are some other 30 seconds.
If we fire at max range, counter artillery can only hit us if they fail to hit the intended target and accidently drop their stuff directly above us.

Off Topic
10 other nice things to do with a PzH2000:

1. Lap the Jeep of the Dutch Brigadier General who was supposed to supervise the exercize (Yeah, go 70 km/h Street speed).
2. Smile at Dutch Soldiers who mistake you for a Leopard 2
3. Point out that you, in fact, are bigger than a Leopard 2
4. Smile, because you wont get to Afghanistan/Sudan/Kongo soon, a PZH 2000 is about as airliftable as a battleship.
5. Hang a big sign reading "Compensating for something? Hell No!" at your barrel.
6. Shock other artillerists to death by having a Howitzer where the entire crew can sleep inside in decent positions without beeing dwarfs.
7. Pretend to be a Main Battle Tank.
8. Wonder if any other Howitzer is equipped with 3 different night vision apparates (one for the driver, one for the gunner, one for the leader).
9. Delibaretly mention the "WORKING HEATING DEVICE" to your fellow M109 comrades.
10. Deliberatly mention that the roof acutally keeps the rain out to your fellow M109 comrades.
.....

[Mightypeon]

No some more serious notes:
The whole System still had a lot of "child-deseases" when i served (2 years ago).
The targetting system beeing one of them.
In addition, its not really a "soldier-proof" system.
We had very different results using the same targetting system, although they propably can be attirubted to the not that intuitve computing system of the fire-directioners (if anyone has a better translation for "Feuer-Leit-Trupp" im glad to hear it, the "Feuer Leit Trupp" are the guys who compute the targetting data).
Considering the usual "solved" speed for such problems it should be fixed by now.

[Gollevainen]

welcome aboard Mightypeon...I go and pull some strings and we get you the blue colour...


Woot 5 mins from deployment?

PZH2000 needs 30 seconds to move into position and aim, then it does some 6-12 shots in a minute (depending on the charge-system used) and than it gets the hell out of there, which are some other 30 seconds.
If we fire at max range, counter artillery can only hit us if they fail to hit the intended target and accidently drop their stuff directly above us.

Thats becouse the other is SP system and other a towed one. We could do it in 2-3 mins, but that would require good geographical conditions quite rare up here. But its still miraclious fast compared to normal towed gun. The department is the key issue (as counterbattery fire wont bother you untill you've shot your firtst round) and that can be done even faster, in theory up to one minute (from last shot to be moving of) but it would require bit of luck too.

1. Lap the Jeep of the Dutch Brigadier General who was supposed to supervise the exercize (Yeah, go 70 km/h Street speed).
2. Smile at Dutch Soldiers who mistake you for a Leopard 2
3. Point out that you, in fact, are bigger than a Leopard 2
4. Smile, because you wont get to Afghanistan/Sudan/Kongo soon, a PZH 2000 is about as airliftable as a battleship.
5. Hang a big sign reading "Compensating for something? Hell No!" at your barrel.
6. Shock other artillerists to death by having a Howitzer where the entire crew can sleep inside in decent positions without beeing dwarfs.
7. Pretend to be a Main Battle Tank.
8. Wonder if any other Howitzer is equipped with 3 different night vision apparates (one for the driver, one for the gunner, one for the leader).
9. Delibaretly mention the "WORKING HEATING DEVICE" to your fellow M109 comrades.
10. Deliberatly mention that the roof acutally keeps the rain out to your fellow M109 comrades.

Sounds like real fireposition spirit:) We finns have only few old soviet 2S1 and 2S5 Self-propelled systems and we "real" artillerist always looked down upon them...got great laugh in this one direct firing demostration when 2S5 barely maked to the fire position, didn't hit anywere and broke down when trying to depart...

But about the child-ilness, Our 155K98 had lots of them when I served it, eg. we couldn't use it's maxium firing rate (9 shots re minute) due safety regulations and the automatic loading device was extremely trouplesom...but child-ilness are just what they are, a minor proplems, easily to fix (you just need to spot them...)

And finaly just out of curiosity, I have few questions if you don't mind:)

1. did you train on any other artillery system before going to the PZH2000?
2. What is the crew consisted of and what are the task of different members? Mean is there an ammunition mens and so on?
3. Support...Did you get enough food in your trainings? (we didn't :mad: ;) ) did you have tents assigned to individual guns or did you all slept in platoon or half-platoon tents?
4. Where in germany did you made live firing training? I've got this impression that the whole western europe is just too crowded for firing 40km+ range shots...

thanks in advance...

[duskylim]

Greetings Mightypeon,

In addition to Goll's questions, can the Pzh2000 fire other forms of extended range ammunition like Denel's Assegai? Or does it fire just NATO-standard 155mm ammunition? What does the Bundeswehr call its ERFB (extended range full bore) ammo? Ditto for ERFB-HB (hollow base) and ERFB-BB (base-bleed).

Vickers-Armstrong takes credit for the developement of ERFB ammo but I remember from an old Ballantine book (called German Secret Weapons) that during WWII research was done on extended range projectiles (like the arrow-shell) at places like Peenemunde (under Walter Dornberger?). I saw pictures of shells that looked surprisingly like ERFB-HB ones.

Changing the topic, we here in the Philippines don't have any sophisticated firing solutions, but we generally stick to the roads so we minimize our resupply problems. The enemy we fought doesn't have any artillery (mostly rebels) so we don't have counter-battery fire. The way we solve the rapid set-up problem is to identify the best firing location and then pour a concrete firing platform! Oh yes! The area has been laid out and pre-surveyed so we just tow the guns in, set them up on the marks and shoot! Primitive but effective.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[Mightypeon]

1: Yes, M109GA3, pretty impressive amount of "Child deseases" for a vehicle reaching the end of its operatinal lifetime.
2: Crew has a Driver, a Commander, a Gunner and 2 Loaders.
Driver is for well, driving.
The Commander for communications, checking if the targetting cordinates make any sense.
The Gunner exists for beeing helpfull in direct firing situations (although the time to lock on target is a bit to long should you "accidently" stumble upon an enemy MBT/Troop Transport) by the way, direct firing acutally works...
The 2 Loaders are, combined with the Gunner, responsible for loading the vehicle with shells and charges if it refills. They are also responsible for loading the charges into the firing mechanism. (Loading the shells is done by a semi-autoloader).

Firing practice is done in Munster, its a pretty creepy feeling if you fire over an inhabited town, but so far nothing really bad has happened.

Support:
There was only one day when we got no food, but a multiple choice test which was supposed to elevate the psychological effects of firing.
Was pretty hilarios.
Tents are assinged (and carried by) to the indiviudal soldier.
As they arent exactly comfortable(especially if you happen to be bigger than 1.8m), we prefer sleeping in the Howitzer

Shells:
Well, our range is up to 42 km, therefor we can proably use this extra ER stuff.
However, we usually only call the base bleed Stuff ER.

The only extra stuff we have is a german smart artillery bomb.
When fired, its drops 2 parachutes with a set of sensors and a modified German LAW-equivalent each. While going down, the Sensors check for the Tanks they are set to look for. If they find one they fire the LAW at the roof.
It can pretty easy distinguish Nato from eastern Tanks and can theoretically distinguish a L2A6 from an Abrams.
During a trial in East germany, they popped 18 former NVA tanks with 10 shots.

[Gollevainen]

Thanks, thats very informative...

Individual tents...how about in winter? Do they expect all sleep without any sort of heating? We had this small sectiontent which barely accomodated the entire crew (8) and small stove to heat it...It actually managed to keep the heat inside so in -20 degree and bellow we theoretically managed just fine...


by the way, direct firing acutally works...

We never used direct fire mode with the 155K98 becouse there was no optical sights assiged to the gun. But we did it with D-30s. We had mixed results, when firing with the normal gunsight (indirect firesight) we hardly hit anything exspecially when shooting with small charges. But when switching to special anti-tank sight and firing full charges, it was amaizingly accurate...Tough our instructors told us that if we see a tank, we shouldn't vaste time for loading, just run like hell ;)

[grahamsh]

All v amusing to a fomer UK reserve infantryman :) I do like the 10 things to do with a PZH2000.

Back in my day (late 1970s and 1980s) some of the reserve artillery units in UK still had WW2 period 5.5 inch guns and 25 pounders ;) No computer controlled shells in those days...which was probably why we infanteers always avoided being on the same training area as live firing gunners if we could help it....

[Gollevainen]

Well the usual ordanance of any artillery today is still the normal "piggies"...Those "smarter-than-user" type of ammunitions are for special occasions...

[Mightypeon]

Thanks, thats very informative...

Individual tents...how about in winter? Do they expect all sleep without any sort of heating? We had this small sectiontent which barely accomodated the entire crew (8) and small stove to heat it...It actually managed to keep the heat inside so in -20 degree and bellow we theoretically managed just fine...




We never used direct fire mode with the 155K98 becouse there was no optical sights assiged to the gun. But we did it with D-30s. We had mixed results, when firing with the normal gunsight (indirect firesight) we hardly hit anything exspecially when shooting with small charges. But when switching to special anti-tank sight and firing full charges, it was amaizingly accurate...Tough our instructors told us that if we see a tank, we shouldn't vaste time for loading, just run like hell ;)

Well, no, the usual Kraut does not have a heating system with him.
Guess some armies never learn from russian winter experiences.
Propably another reason why Germans like Tanks, they are heated while their Tents arent:)
If we meet a Tank we are told to make use of that reverse gear and quickly dissapear behind the next hilltop.
If we stumble upon an enemy anti air/ other Artillery we could use it, as were still faster than these guys (at least were told so), chances are that they mistake us for a Leo anyway^^.

[Delphi84]

Wow duskylim, did Singapore sell artillery guns to Philippines? Which type is it? The FH88 or the FH2000, judging from your comments, I think it is the FH2000.

I am a consript from Singapore many years back from the Guards battalion. It is actually a rapid deployment force of the 21st division, it is some sort of heli-borne infantry. Talking abt the artillery force, it provides those foot soldiers like us good neutralisation of enemy grounds before the deliberate assault and also a good defensive weapons against enemy counter attacks or to cover a retreat. Our division artillery is the new Singapore made SLWH Pegasus, which is heli portable. The gun is veri small and could be towed by a medium sized truck

How does artillery work? This is wad i was taught.........

1)How does the artillery 'see the target'?

Each infantry coy has a forward observer and gun assistant attached to the coy HQ. The 2 are artillery officer/nco respectively. Before the battalion moves out to assault an enemy objective, a route of advancement will be designed based on aerial photography and higher HQ intelligence. At each strategic points on the route of advancement, a fire-point will be established. Which means to say, for example, when ur battalion has progressed to that particular position, the division HQ will be comms, and orders will be related to the artillery to fire at the enemy position. The general rule is that as the battalion gets closer and closer to the enemy, the intensity of the shelling will be increased. The aim is to harasse them or demoralise them.

For defensive battles. The FO/GA will be deployed at all major axis of possible enemy routes of advancement. They will provide the orders to shell the incomming enemies for example, enemies travelling by 5 tonnes/ 3 tonnes things like that.

2) How to translate enemy position from the battalion to the division artillery?

Usually, the FO will have a set of maps that depicts the fire points. For example a certain Map Grid Referrence, a code will be established. He will comms the artillery likeby giving the code, and type of ammos to be used, depending on type of enemy. Ammos like HE, white phosphorous

3)Things, artillery guys need to worry abt.

Triangulation. Since when artillery fires, it exposes itself to being counter battery fired upon. Bcos there are modern euipments like artillery radar which helps to detect theincoming shells and thus enabling the enemy to produce a efficient counter fire. Thus most artilleries must depend on shoot and scoot type of firing. Enemies may also send special forces to raid or attack artilleries especially MLRS as they are deemed to be high valued assets, as they can deliver high volume of fire

[Surpluswarrior]

How different militaries organize artillery is interesting. In Canada, in the reserves, we have a rotational system in which the enlisted gunners are cross-trained to do the different tasks of loading, firing, aiming, and preparing ammunition. Our NCOs told us that while the Americans could afford to lose a loader and send in one from a pool of loaders, we all had to know every task in case we couldn't replace dead gun crew.

As you become more experienced and are promoted, you go to additional qualification courses where enlisted personnel learn how to calculate trajectories from the gun command post, drive the gun around, handle radio communications and act as a forward observer, and so on.

Our gun was a 105mm towed howitzer. It was aimed by vertical and horizontal elevation wheels, a periscope, and micrometers, and the gun itself would be picked up and moved if traverse was insufficient. You could also direct-fire with it, even through bore-sighting.

In a fire mission, we would be given numbers over the radio which indicated where we had to traverse the gun by way of the hand-wheels. Usually we would deploy so that the gun would not have to be picked up and moved at all once deployed as the gun would be "zeroed" in the right direction, so to speak, and minute adjustments made from that point on. Rapid and accurate fire was possible from that point onwards. Individual guns could be given individual fire missions, or in groups, or the entire battery or even the entire regiment.

The gun was heavy but a strong person could move its trails to traverse the entire gun on his own. The worst was carrying it through ditches, or having to dig a hole for its elevation in hard ground. If you stood in the wrong place, it would recoil against you and shatter your shin.

Like in the other militaries, we rode around in trucks instead of walking like the infantry. Of course, we were cross-trained as infantry and could be "dismounted" for infantry missions.

It was not requred to score very highly on an intelligence test to get in, though you had to be a reasonably fast learner. I had difficulty with the mental and physical part but most of the college rugby players who had joined seemed to be having a fine time of it.

[Surpluswarrior]

In addition, the worst thing for us would be to receive counterbattery fire. We were not scared of infantry. But we had some kind of emergency code word for being counterbatteried like "FIRE FIRE FIRE" or something, and everyone would pack up the entire battery in like 1 or 3 minutes and drive off without forgetting anything behind, like a muzzle cover in the dark. I got yelled at in a drill once because I was taking too long to get the elevation to proper height for towing and my sergeant yelled at me "WE'RE BEING CBed!"

I think our doctrine was a combination of the British and American model.

[Gollevainen]

First of all Welcome, there is never too much artillerist onboard:) I'll try to get all you promoted to vip membership as soon as possiple...

How different militaries organize artillery is interesting. In Canada, in the reserves, we have a rotational system in which the enlisted gunners are cross-trained to do the different tasks of loading, firing, aiming, and preparing ammunition. Our NCOs told us that while the Americans could afford to lose a loader and send in one from a pool of loaders, we all had to know every task in case we couldn't replace dead gun crew.

Here in finland we also practised a rotation system exspecially in the early stages of the training. But it was more of finding out the most suitable guy in the specific task. I was the smallest (and smartest;) ) in my crew so I was pointed out to be aimer which theoretically would have had lesser physical stress...theoretically...Our NCO school however relayed much more to the rotation system and were shifted not only inside the firing platoon but in the entire battery.

It was not requred to score very highly on an intelligence test to get in, though you had to be a reasonably fast learner. I had difficulty with the mental and physical part but most of the college rugby players who had joined seemed to be having a fine time of it.

Well it didn't need to be rocket scientist in our battery too. Before we started the actual gun training, our NCOs (actually older conscripts) had the change of picking their own guncrew and so all the best mens went to the guncrews. That wasen't entirely wise becouse some of our batterys "finests" didn't even manage from the easiest HQ troop missions like pointing out the guns spesific position in the fireposition or guiding the truck so that the gun was right at the spot on first attempt (122mm D-30 is rather painfull to move around by menpower..)

In addition, the worst thing for us would be to receive counterbattery fire. We were not scared of infantry. But we had some kind of emergency code word for being counterbatteried like "FIRE FIRE FIRE" or something, and everyone would pack up the entire battery in like 1 or 3 minutes and drive off without forgetting anything behind, like a muzzle cover in the dark. I got yelled at in a drill once because I was taking too long to get the elevation to proper height for towing and my sergeant yelled at me "WE'RE BEING CBed!"

We call it asemaralli (fireposition-race);)

[Surpluswarrior]

I was the smallest (and smartest;) ) in my crew so I was pointed out to be aimer which theoretically would have had lesser physical stress...theoretically...


LOL, I know what you mean. It can be very stressful with the sergeant yelling down your neck.

It's been a while now since I was in the military in late high school (kind of many conscripts in other countries, I guess! though we weren't conscripted of course)

But the rotation system was firmly ingrained as there was proper drill for the actual rotation itself. We didn't rotate in battery much, as we were all assigned to a gun crew per gun led by a sargeant, and only went to other guns in the battery as replacements.

[Delphi84]

Well it didn't need to be rocket scientist in our battery too. Before we started the actual gun training, our NCOs (actually older conscripts) had the change of picking their own guncrew and so all the best mens went to the guncrews. That wasen't entirely wise becouse some of our batterys "finests" didn't even manage from the easiest HQ troop missions like pointing out the guns spesific position in the fireposition or guiding the truck so that the gun was right at the spot on first attempt (122mm D-30 is rather painfull to move around by menpower..)


Wow i never knew other countries think other wise for artillery guys. Here before enlistment, guys have to go thru physical and mental ability test. Those with strong grasp of English commands and maths goes to the Signal institutes. Those with good spatial skills and logic capabilities are send to Armoured and artillery vocations. The REST OF US?................. Low IQ folks like me got to those Infantry, Guards vocation.:nono: :roll: :roll:

[Gollevainen]

We have this saying: Tyhma, tyhmempi, tykkimies...Which roughly translated to Stupid, more stubidier, an artillerist...

...man did I hear that alot when I was in the army....:mad: