PLAN's Lack of sufficient helicopters...an issue?

[chicket9]

PLAN does possess ship borne aircraft...Z-9, Z-8 and the Ka-27 Helix.

The issue is are there enough?

According to Janes for the past decade, reported only 10 Z-9s, until recently this year's Fight Ships finally changed its numbers to 26 Z-9s.
This is a mix of the old French built units and the new Z-9Cs.

Next is the Z-8, at least a dozen are serving the PLAN, but these are more better suited for submarine/auxilary/shore support than actually being based onboard surface combatants.

And so far, only 8 Ka-27 Helix are in service, half of them being SAR versions. More maybe expected.

PLAN's fleet used to be one that operated without helicopters, with small ships, few frigates and destroyers, and even for the largest combatants, they did not carry aircraft.

But now times have changed. the modern PLAN has 31 combat ships that can facilitate helicopters, including four ships that have double hangars. In addition, PLAN has at least 8 fleet auxilaries that have large hangars, and nearly 20 Yuting/Yuting II LSTs that all have helo decks.

Assuming Janes is right, PLAN having 26 Z-9Cs and 8 Ka-27s, and about 15 Z-8s, it appears that PLAN has far more ships than aircraft. If the true situation is that Z-9C numbers are only around 10, then that would even be more disastrous.

In most Western Navies, each ship would have its own attachment of aviation personnel and of course the pilots and one aircraft (or two/three depending on how many are assigned to one ship). Western navies always operate more helicopters than the ships, ensuring that in time of war, there are spare aircraft to go around, in addition to performing shore based tasks.

I fear the PLAN has much work in this area of ship borne aircraft. The pilots for starters are probably not as well trained as their Western counterparts, especially in ASW flights and combat operations. There are seldom live exercises of Z-9C/Z-8 using torpedoes, and Z-8 despite being claimed to be able to fire missiles, has had no such practise.

Each ship cannot possess its own aircraft and aircrew due to the lower numbers of helicopters already. Therefore, I highly doubt PLAN has perfected the process in which to integrate aircraft to one ship...in otherwords if a PLAN ship cannot continually possess its own aircraft in the long term, there maybe serious defincies in joint training and operations.

I think PLAN should aim for 40 Z-9Cs, 30 Z-8s and at least 20 Ka-27s.
That is 90 aircraft compared to the current 40-50.

40 Z-9Cs would be sufficiently adequate to equip the 20+ ships that operate the Z-9, as well as fulfilling coastal patrol functions.
30 Z-8s...PLAN's only auxilary support working horse so far, and needs a replacement badly, though the new and improved Z-8F is set to fly. 30 are needed at least...considering that the majority of them are increasingly used for transporting marines. With 20 Ka-27s, this ensures that PLAN has enough aircraft in the long term to equip the latest surface combatants.

[tphuang]

well, PLAN is exporting 6 Z-9EC as part of the F-22P deal. That kind of scares me, since it barely has any Z-9Cs to begin with. The number 26 sounds like a lot actually. How many Z-9Cs have the people on CDF identified? Also, we don't need that many ka-28. Once naval version of Z-10 or naval version of Z-15 comes out, they will be mass equipping the surface combatants.

[bd popeye]

If i were the CNO of the PLAN ASW modernazation would be my #1 priority. #2 would be helo's. They don't have near enough to to the job. Way to many ships. Not enough helos. Those ships should not go to sea without an caple ASW/SAR helo or 2 onboard.

The PLA needs to strive foward on this matter and get what ever helo they are developing in service and in numbers suitable for force projection.

ASW/SAR are important missions that the PLAN is lacking in at this time.

Imangine that the PLAN ahd say two LPH type ships with enough helos for both to operate at the same time. When the "Boxing Day" Tsunami hit on 26 Dec. 2004 the PLAN could have storied to the disaster to perform refief and rescuse missions. Instead the U...:o .well we all know what happened.

[chicket9]

Although the Z-9 is based on the old French Daulphin, Z-9C is quite a capable helo itself, afterall not many countries have managed to adapt an indigenous helicopter design for naval or ship board operations.

Of course, I can't wait for Z-10 or Z-15, because PLAN needs something up there with the Lynx and Seahawk. Ka-27 does bridge this gap, and because Z-10 or Z-15 naval variants won't be ready till at least 2015 (I'd guess anyway), I'd say import more badly needed Ka-27s for now...another dozen at least.

[bd popeye]

Although the Z-9 is based on the old French Daulphin, Z-9C is quite a capable helo itself, afterall not many countries have managed to adapt an indigenous helicopter design for naval or ship board operations.

Of course, I can't wait for Z-10 or Z-15, because PLAN needs something up there with the Lynx and Seahawk. Ka-27 does bridge this gap, and because Z-10 or Z-15 naval variants won't be ready till at least 2015 (I'd guess anyway), I'd say import more badly needed Ka-27s for now...another dozen at least.

The USN has had navalized helos for over 50 years...The Russians almost as long.

What you have posted may well be all true. but right now the PLAN is suffenciently lacking in the operation of helos. They need helos at sea on ships right now. Is there a quick fix? Nope. Unless they are willing to purchase numbers of Ka-27's until a servicable helo comes on line.

[MIGleader]

just correcting you guys, the ka-27 is the version in service with the russian navy. The imrpoved model for export is called the ka-28.

The PLAN seems to purchase one new ka-28 with every modern destroyer it commisions or buys. hopefully from now till 2015, the ka-31 will be purchased instead.

[tphuang]

hmm, I have some serious doubts about ka-31
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1682975&C=asiapac
In the recent news, IN had to ground its fleet of ka-31 AEW helicopters. I don't know whether China should buy any ka-31. If catapult is not added to Varyag (which is likely), then would would China get? Y-7 AEW is planned for future carriers with catapults, but Varyag seems to have no other option than ka-31.

Also, if this kind of problem is found with ka-31, can China really trust ka-28? As usual, reliability is a huge issue with Russian systems.

[sino52C]

They should still build more Z-9Cs, even though I don't think that they are large enough to conduct distant operations.

[akinkhoo]

If i were the CNO of the PLAN ASW modernazation would be my #1 priority. #2 would be helo's. They don't have near enough to to the job. Way to many ships. Not enough helos. Those ships should not go to sea without an caple ASW/SAR helo or 2 onboard.

The PLA needs to strive foward on this matter and get what ever helo they are developing in service and in numbers suitable for force projection.

ASW/SAR are important missions that the PLAN is lacking in at this time.

Imangine that the PLAN ahd say two LPH type ships with enough helos for both to operate at the same time. When the "Boxing Day" Tsunami hit on 26 Dec. 2004 the PLAN could have storied to the disaster to perform refief and rescuse missions. Instead the U... .well we all know what happened.
i agree with this view.

other then ASW heli, a LST/LPH/LPD that can land and supply a few helis which can more people and equipment of rescue mission are also welcomed considering a long coastline that doesn't always get good weather.

---

i was impressed by the amount of work singapore could do with it's LST (classed as LPH by other countries) during the Tsunami. these 6000 tons ship can carry quite abit of stuff and support a couple of Super Puma helis.

for singapore, i think there isn't navalized heli too. the SP which was used with the LST, seem to be place on trials with the frigates. i wonder if a ASW kit will be develop for it after the trials, or will the RSN procure it's own helis later on.

the lack of navalized heli doesn't seem to be an issue until you are ready to break out of friendly waters i guess...

[bd popeye]

Thank you for your response akinkhoo.:)

I just know if the PRC could have better responded to the tsunami they would have built up favor among the effected nation. But instead the US is building on there tsunami relif efforts. Simply because they have the ablity to do so. There really is no reason why the PRC should not be doing more in humanitarian relief efforts except the lack of equipment and trained personnell. Most notably helicopters & one single LPH type ship.

The USN is deploying it super sized west coast hospital ship USNS Mercy to the Pacific on 24 April 2006. Their mission?? To build up a "good neighbor policy". To build on the rappourt the US established during it's recent disaster relief efforts. You fellows are smart enough to know why.

Aledgelly the Mercy has been re-fitted with a temperory hangar for helos. I can't find any recent pics to back that statement up.

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=23226

[MIGleader]

The nations hit by the Tsunami do not hold good relations with the PRC. The PRC offered money but was rejected. Even if they had a ship,. it would likely be rejected too.

[bd popeye]

The nations hit by the Tsunami do not hold good relations with the PRC. The PRC offered money but was rejected. Even if they had a ship,. it would likely be rejected too.

I did not know that Miggy...Humm.:confused: I'm going to look that up on the net. In the mean time why did they reject help from their neighbor the PRC???????? I've read that the PRC sent little if any help.

[tphuang]

I'm not sure about that part. I thought China was engaged with this donation race against Taiwan. It was only worried about offering more to the tsunami-devastated countries than Taiwan. Kind of pathetic actually, if you think how much smaller Taiwan is. However, if we look it from another angle, it was probably the first time in the history that China actually donated to disaster stricken countries. (consider how poor the country is until pretty much this past decade)

I think the problem was due to the fact that PRC simply did not have the capability to conduct the kind of mission to help these guys. They probably just didn't have the capability to send ships over. They probably had enough resources, but not necessarily the coordination to be able to do so. I mean, the Indians didn't do it either, right? And they were actually closer to the other hit countries.

On a side note, I think PLA would've done a better job at disaster relief than anyone else if their relief team was actually sent there. If you look at the work pla has done in the past in terms of helping out hit areas in China, it's nothing short of spectacular. I mean southern China gets flooded pretty much every year, but they do keep the losses to a minimum.

Anyhow, this is getting a little off track, let me just get back on the lack of helicopters.

According to http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/z9c.asp, 20 AS565 were purchased in the 80s. If that's the case, then the number of 26 should be more accurate. Also according to http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/ka28.asp, there are 10 identified ka-28.
INVENTORY

* East Sea Fleet: 9124, 9134, 9144, 9154, 9164, 9174, 9184
* South Sea Fleet: 9664, 9666, 9454
That means 7 are planned with the 136, 137, 138, 139, 525, 526 and 3 are planned with 167, 168, 169, 170, 171. I guess that means more are needed for the south fleet (probably needs 6-8 in total) . East fleet doesn't see to be doing as badly with 7 for 6 ships.

Another article on this:
http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles/anmviewer.asp?a=509&z=30

Six Chinese destroyers and 12 frigates equipped with helicopter decks initially had Z-9 helicopters that were copies of French Super Frelon, but only a few of these had French ASW avionics, including the SS-12 dipping sonar. The first Z-9 dates from 1985, and there are now 36 units, but only three are known to be equipped with dipping sonar. Photographs of Z-9s with externally mounted torpedoes show the Z-9s labeled as ASW helicopters. China negotiated with Russia for 12 modern Ka-28 Helix-A ASW helicopters in the 1998 Sovremenny deal. The PLAN now has ordered 12 more of these potent helicopters with sophisticated sensors, fire control and ASW weapons.

Who knows?

[bd popeye]

That's right who knows?? I do know this the PLAN better get to steppin' and get some modern helos for ASW and SAR missions. I wonder how many PLAN sailors have been lost at sea because no SAR helo was available? Sailors do fall overboard ya' know. Wait a minute!!..the number of the lost maybe small because as best as I can establish the PLAN ships only spend limited amount of time at sea a year. But the loss of one sailors life is too many:(

Maybe one of these types is for sale.
http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/5d/images.art.com/images/-/Airplane-Military-Helicopters--C10018937.jpeg

[MIGleader]

These helos wont help.
why?

1. alot are attack helos
2. Alot are european and american ones under sanction
3. There is a ka-27, which china already has.

Anyhow, the Plan has to get more helicopters if it wants to keep building destroyers.

[bd popeye]

These helos wont help.
why?
1. alot are attack helos
2. Alot are european and american ones under sanction
3. There is a ka-27, which china already has.
Anyhow, the Plan has to get more helicopters if it wants to keep building destroyers.

Miggy,I realize that. I was being facisious. I was just trying to piont out that the PLAN needs something! What I should have said is the same thing you have...."the Plan has to get more helicopters if it wants to keep building destroyers"..They just simply have too if they want a viable force.

To bad the Eruo embargo is still in effect. If it were ever lifted the PLA fans and China watchers would be happy.

Hey... if the embargo were lifted what should the PLAN purchase for an ASW/SAR helo?

[tphuang]

Miggy,I realize that. I was being facisious. I was just trying to piont out that the PLAN needs something! What I should have said is the same thing you have...."the Plan has to get more helicopters if it wants to keep building destroyers"..They just simply have too if they want a viable force.

To bad the Eruo embargo is still in effect. If it were ever lifted the PLA fans and China watchers would be happy.

Hey... if the embargo were lifted what should the PLAN purchase for an ASW/SAR helo?
assuming we are looking at the EADS
http://www.eads.com/web/content/en/1024/content/OF00000000400004/5/82/40820825.html
The possible selections are:
Fennec - AS-555SN - payload not enough, maximum takeoff is only 2250 kg
Panther - AS-565MB - basically Z-9C is based on this - Again, the payload is not really adequate. That's why we have been complaining about it in the first place.
Cougar - AS-532SC
NH-90NFH - my personal favourite

[chicket9]

EH90 would be an absolute favourite, and only if that embargo was lifted, perhaps PLA would get some too, and a joint production agreement may come across.

But somehow, I don't think China would do that. With an increasing priority in indigenous developments, I think the closest EADS will come is cooperation in Z-10 or Z-15 projects.

I can't wait till Z-10 and Z-15 get off the ground in terms of being transport and naval helicopters. THey will probably still fall short of S-70 Blackhawk and definitely fall short of EH90, but they would have more power, endurance and flexibility than Z-9.

[tphuang]

EH90 would be an absolute favourite, and only if that embargo was lifted, perhaps PLA would get some too, and a joint production agreement may come across.

But somehow, I don't think China would do that. With an increasing priority in indigenous developments, I think the closest EADS will come is cooperation in Z-10 or Z-15 projects.

I can't wait till Z-10 and Z-15 get off the ground in terms of being transport and naval helicopters. THey will probably still fall short of S-70 Blackhawk and definitely fall short of EH90, but they would have more power, endurance and flexibility than Z-9.
they may not be as powerful as NH-90, but the technology used on them (well at least Z-15) should be newer. I would think Eurocopter would put the latest technology on this thing. Whatever we want to say about Z-9 series, it's an old platform. It may be China's most successful helicopter program, but it's still ancient.

[chicket9]

In addition to the thing about humanitarian aid etc...

I think China, in terms of coatal humanitarian capabilities...is quite capable.

The Sichang for example is a multipurpose vessel capable of handling two helicopters. Its deck space enables it to carry much aid on board as well.

The Yuting and Yuting II, of which 20 are in service with more expected, each have a deck claimed to support two medium helicopters. THese LSTs also carry the LCVP, of course nothing comparing to USN LCVPs, but at least they can ferry quick personnel or priority supplies quickly to shallow coasts.

In addition, you got the large number of amphibious warfare ships and auxilaries capable of partaking in humanitarian aids around the coast.

Ships like the Yutings and Sichang, if needed, could have operated in the Tsunami region, if supported by ports and tankers. Of course, the reason why China didnt get involve more is something worth debating about (in another thread though).

In addition to more helicopters, I think PLAN should build another one or two ships similar to Sichang for aviation support. Sichang has shown great usefulness for humanitarian, cargo freighting, aviation training, military lift, and recently, able to carry the Type 22XX stealthy catamaran. The current vessel I believe is doing very well, but has too many roles to perform considering it is the only vessel of its type in Chinese service.

The LPH may help, but I got a feeling that would be reserved for more combatant operations than pure training or lifting. Therefore perhaps an improved or enlarged design based on the Sichang should be built.

[MIGleader]

Russia to Delivery Aircraft Equipment for China’s Navy

Yesterday there were meetings in Beijing of vice premier and defense minister Sergey Ivanov with the premier of the PRC state council, Web Jiabao, and PRC defense minister, General-Colonel Cao Gangchuan. The prospects of military and military-technical cooperation were discusses at them, in the area of which right now a deadlock is being observed. Sergey Ivanov only reported on the results of the secret negotiations that Russo-Chinese military cooperation will be developing even further. According to Kommersant’s information, details of contracts were discussed in Beijing for the delivery for China’s navy of almost 40 Ka-29 assault transport helicopters, more than 20 Ka-31 radar patrol and control helicopters and also more than 15 Be-200 anti-submarine amphibious airplanes, which are equipped with the modular “Morskoy Zmey” ((Sea Dragon)) search and targeting system.

The signing by Rosoboronehksport of these contracts is expected in the fall of this year. Sergey Ivanov announced that “Russia’s military and technical cooperation system with China will not be changing for the time being.” By the way, at the same time he did not rule out the possibility (true, in the future) of Beijing’s participation in future high technology projects, including the fifth generation fighter project. However, according to S. Ivanov, for this, it is necessary to resolve a whole series of legal problems. In particular, to sign an agreement about the protection of intellectual property.

i pulled this off of china-defence blogspot. Good news. It appears the PLAN has finally decided to wise up and get more helicopters. Two thoughts:

1. ordering ka-29s means the naval z-8 project is not doing so well
2. ordering 40 ka-31s means the PLAN wishes to equip more ships with helos. it might also mean it will be a long while before the z-15 is out. I hope the plan is satified with the ka-31.

[Roger604]

It seems that negotiating a sale of some helicopters is too insignificant for a meeting between the number two Russian, Ivanov, and the number two Chinese, Wen Jiabao (and Cao Gangchuan). The helicopter sale is really just the tip of the iceberg, I think. It's interesting that they talk about collaboration on the 5th generation fighter program, right at the same time that the final designs from CAC and SAC were submitted. Most likely the PAK-FA program wants to be a contender also. (Sorry if this is a bit off topic.)

[Troika]

i pulled this off of china-defence blogspot. Good news. It appears the PLAN has finally decided to wise up and get more helicopters. Two thoughts:

1. ordering ka-29s means the naval z-8 project is not doing so well
2. ordering 40 ka-31s means the PLAN wishes to equip more ships with helos. it might also mean it will be a long while before the z-15 is out. I hope the plan is satified with the ka-31.

Where did you get number of 40 Ka-31s? From above quote and other sources only 'more than twenty' has been given, not figure of 40.

[chicket9]

PLAN is about to get a massive boost, and I am very very excited about this, despite the lack of additional purchases of KA-28 which China needs more of badly.

So until Z-9C gets off the production line in good numbers, PLAN still lacks sufficient numbers of ship board ASW/SAR choppers.

But 40 KA-29...20+ KA-31...15 BE-200?

That sounds about right for the current requirements.

15 BE-200, that will boost PLAN's ASW capabilities, for the first time PLAN would have a proper Maritime Patrol Aircraft with attack capabilities too (if it can carry torpedoes etc) coz the Y8MPA unfortunately cannot carry weapons.

40 KA-29...this is interesting. PLAN has those 20+ LSTs and upcoming LPH platform that all can operate helicopters. While we mostly expected a Z-8 variation, I didn't see this coming. This is great, perhaps the PLAN marines will form their first aviation units using KA-29s. This beast could seat 16 troops, is armoured, and can carry a variety or rockets and cannon.
WIth this, the Z-8s currently performing so many roles in transporting marines maybe relieved by the next decade to fill in the auxilary support or shore based patrol role.

KA-31...very interesting. Pre cursor for a PLAN carrier? Afterall, Russian and Indian carriers operate the KA-31 as its AEW platform. 20+ is more than sufficient for one air group. So maybe they'd perform shore based roles in addition?

[MIGleader]

Where did you get number of 40 Ka-31s? From above quote and other sources only 'more than twenty' has been given, not figure of 40.

sry...must of been typo

15 BE-200, that will boost PLAN's ASW capabilities, for the first time PLAN would have a proper Maritime Patrol Aircraft with attack capabilities too (if it can carry torpedoes etc) coz the Y8MPA unfortunately cannot carry weapons.

i never got the impression the y-8 was lacking anything in its role as a MPA. The be-200 is not an MPA.

The be-200's ordered do not even have to be for the military. the plane was orginally designed to fight fires, and thats what the chinese might do with it.

If the military does use it, it could be freight carrying, or amphibious hauling of troops.

40 KA-29...this is interesting. PLAN has those 20+ LSTs and upcoming LPH platform that all can operate helicopters. While we mostly expected a Z-8 variation, I didn't see this coming. This is great, perhaps the PLAN marines will form their first aviation units using KA-29s. This beast could seat 16 troops, is armoured, and can carry a variety or rockets and cannon.
WIth this, the Z-8s currently performing so many roles in transporting marines maybe relieved by the next decade to fill in the auxilary support or shore based patrol role.

The ka-29 is probably serve as the creme de crop of PLAN naval aviation helicopters. they might first serve with PLANAF units. in terms of passenger payload, the ka-28 is far inferior to the z-8. thus, it is unlike the PLAN has decided to replace the z-8 with the ka-29.

KA-31...very interesting. Pre cursor for a PLAN carrier? Afterall, Russian and Indian carriers operate the KA-31 as its AEW platform. 20+ is more than sufficient for one air group. So maybe they'd perform shore based roles in addition?

probably for FFGs anbd DDGs. Any remaining ones might go towards a future carrier. Remeber, the first ka-28s served with PLANAf units, not the PLAN. the same could happen here.

[chicket9]

No about the Z-8 being 'replaced', im not saying they should retire!

But think about it, number 1...Z-8 was never intended as a tactical transport. It is a good naval helicopter for ship board and shore based work. But remember, Z-8A has only been delivered in small numbers to PLA Aviation, and the naval Z-8s, despite having a good payload and are still being produced in small numbers, ultimately PLAN cannot spare all of them purely for transport...

They have no armour, or self defense suites. It makes them large and lumbering targets. So you may argue that Sea Knights, Chinooks and Sea Stallions and Commandos are used as naval assault transports even though they are huge. Well boy,these were mostly designed to be military transports to start with, and many have self defense and some armament fitted.

Z-8s were originally designed as naval ship board choppers, not foremost in the assault role. Of course, why not use a handful, afterall they can carry heavy payloads such as small vehicles and howitzers. But ultimately, I would not depend on them as first line transports, because

a) too slow, not so agile, lack of self defense
b) Not too many of them around

If it was Z-8A, that is a different story, course I'd depend on it, unfortunately they are going to the army.

40 KA-29s, perfect for PLAN. Armoured, armed, it is probably China's best assault chopper purchased yet.

Since Z-8s aren't many in number, they can now be relieved in this 'transport' role, and perform other much needed tasks in war...such as aerial mine sweeping, SAR, ASW, aerial-to-ship replenishment, auxilary support and as the French originally designed the Super Frelon...SSBN cover if needed.

[tphuang]

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/head/83/20060429/13286731.html
This report does mention 40 ka-29, 20 ka-31 and 15 b2-200

中评社香港4月28日电／俄罗斯媒体报道，中国海军最近向俄罗斯采购一批登陆战装备和反潜飞机。包括40架 用于伞兵空降作战的Ka-29直升机，20架带有无线电定位导航系统、可用于侦察作战的Ka-31预警直升机，以及15架最新式的别-200型水陆两栖反潜飞机。

美国之音引述俄罗斯商人日报报道，刚结束访中行程的俄罗斯副总理兼国防部长伊凡诺夫，在北京与中国方面讨论 这笔新的军火交易细节。报道指出，最新式的别-200型水陆两栖反潜飞机，这种飞机具备专门用于反潜作战的海蛇式搜寻瞄准攻击系统。
　　
　　据报道，中俄双方计画在今年秋季正式签订这笔军火交易合约。
　　
　　资料显示，Ka-29是在Ka-27反潜直升机的基础上，研制的双发动机突击运输及电子战直升机。这种直升机有众多改型，其中Ka-29RLD后改名为Ka-31雷达预警直升机。
　　
　　Ka-29直升机备有四管卡特林7.62公厘机枪，备弹量为1800发，可装8枚AT-6螺旋空面导弹，及80公厘火箭发射巢，最高平飞速度每小时280公里，作战半径（6或8次目标进入）10 03公里。
　　
　　Ka-31直升机机腹有个长方型旋转天线（每分钟6转），平时收起紧贴于机腹下，使用时垂直放下；在3000米巡 航高度下，机上的E-801MOko空用雷达能同时追踪最多20个目标，战斗机大小的目标侦测距离为110公里，水面船舰侦测距 离为200公里。
　　
　　美国之音报道，由于俄罗斯一直拒绝将最尖端的武器装备出售给中国，双方军火交易的规模近年来一直停滞不 前。
　　
　　伊万诺夫26日在北京表示，为打破这种局面，未来不排除邀请中国参与部分高科技武器装备研发的可能性， 包括第五代战斗机的设计研制。

Seriously, this is a huge purchase. As big of a purchase you will see china make off the Russians in a while.

And Roger, there is no way China will actually accept pak-fa as a possible design. it may participate with the Russians to finish certain areas faster, but that's about it.

Even this deal, i'd like to see some russian side commenting on it before thinking it will actually go through.

[MIGleader]

well, the article i pulled got its information form kommersant, so i did a little research:

Russia, China Not to Change Military & Technical Cooperation Now
Russia’s Deputy PM and Defense Minister Sergey Ivanov, who is in Beijing now, met Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and Defense Minister Cao Gangchuan yesterday, April 26. The highlight was the future of military and technical cooperation, which is rather stagnant, and this stagnation, the analysts say, roots in Russia’s unwillingness to supply the most updated armaments to China.

When it comes to the export of Russian weapons to China, the ‘no comment’ attitude is the usual practice for both countries. The recent negotiations proved no exception. Russia’s-Chinese military and technical cooperation will be developing, Ivanov was brief after negotiations.

As usual, the anonymous sources were more eloquent. In Beijing, Russia and China canvassed the contracts for shipping to China’ Navy nearly 40 Ka-29 assault and transport helicopters, more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters of radar observation and more than 15 Be-200 amphibious aircraft equipped with the Sea Serpent weapon-aiming system. Rosoboronexport is willing to conclude these contracts this fall.

Asked about possibility of the joint projects with Beijing, Ivanov said the pattern of military and technical cooperation of the countries won’t change for the time being. In future, Beijing may join some high-tech projects, including the project for the fifth-generation fighter. But this participation, the defense minister said, calls for settlement of a number of legal issues and concluding an agreement on intellectual property protection is among them.

This report agrees exactly with whats been metioned before, except it calls the be-200s radar the "sea serpent" rather than "sea dragon". Since kommersant isa highyl reliable russian source, im tempted to believe the contract will go through.

[Sczepan]

The different helicopters are very usefull in different jobs - and China (in my opinion) should take all helos they can order by russia or which can be build in national factories.

For SAR and sub-hunting (by DDGs, Frigates and future carriers) I would prefere a mix of the Ka-28 ASW/SAR and Z-9C Naval Helicopter, also supportet by a small number of Z-8 helos (there combat range 500km (with 3,000kg payload) is much better than that of KA-28, as I know) in sub-hunting missions.

For amphibious operations i would prefere some new amphibious carriers, operating PLA Navy Z-8 and Attack-Helos (like WZ-10, WZ-9 Night Variant Attack Helicopter) and "mixed prof." like the Mil Hind (1st wave).

For AEW - operating onboard of Varyag and new carriers - I would prefere the Ka-31 Radar Picket Naval Helicopter.

For transport (carriing something between harbours and/or between different ships) a number of Z-8s should be in service to.

[isthvan]

IT looks like someone in PLAN have been reading this thread;) … They covered everything except ASW helicopters… Now they only need to buy some more Ka-27s and they solved all problems…


But this participation, the defense minister said, calls for settlement of a number of legal issues and concluding an agreement on intellectual property protection is among them.

Now is it just me or Russian defense minister seems to be little pisst off:)? Maybe they are not to happy with some Chinese projects based on Russian weapons?

[MIGleader]

IT looks like someone in PLAN have been reading this thread;) … They covered everything except ASW helicopters… Now they only need to buy some more Ka-27s and they solved all problems…

if im not mistaken, the ka-29(if modifed slightly) is very much capable of performing the main roles of the ka-28. The ka-29 has a survalence radar aswell, and can carry dipping sonar.


Now is it just me or Russian defense minister seems to be little pisst off:)? Maybe they are not to happy with some Chinese projects based on Russian weapons?

when your broke and have to sell other people your weapons for a living, you accept deals on their terms. russia can stop selling weapons, but i highly doubt they would do that. The defence minister is awfully ambitious. even bush couldnt convince the chinese to follow his demands, what makes him think he can?

[isthvan]

if im not mistaken, the ka-29(if modifed slightly) is very much capable of performing the main roles of the ka-28. The ka-29 has a survalence radar aswell, and can carry dipping sonar.

AFAIK Ka-29 has surveillance radar which gives ability to operate in both day and night operations ad in all weather conditions, but not capability to carry sonar, and is not able to perform roles of Ka27/28s… It is only capable in switching roles from attack versions to transports… I could be wrong so if you can give me some more data I would be grateful…


when your broke and have to sell other people your weapons for a living, you accept deals on their terms. russia can stop selling weapons, but i highly doubt they would do that. The defence minister is awfully ambitious. even bush couldnt convince the chinese to follow his demands, what makes him think he can?

Now Russians are not as broke as they used to be, especially considering current oil, gas and copper prices… Plus they also have some other customers now, Russian Army currently have more money available for new equipment purchases… And maybe they believe that China still needs them as much as they need China… They certainly are not happy whit possible Chinas exports of equipment which they developed or helped to develop and whit potential lost of traditional customers…

[Gollevainen]

I hate to sound smart but Ka-29 is rather limitedly produced naval-infantry attack helicopter derivate of standard VMF Ka-27 and its downgrated export model Ka-28. But unlike these two, Ka-29 carryes no radar and converting it BACK to an ASW chopper of which it was orginally modified is just plain stubid...It has, however provided usefull platform to AEW chopper called ka-31, featured (but recently grounded:confused: :( ) by India navy

[isthvan]

I hate to sound smart but Ka-29 is rather limitedly produced naval-infantry attack helicopter derivate of standard VMF Ka-27 and its downgrated export model Ka-28. But unlike these two, Ka-29 carryes no radar and converting it BACK to an ASW chopper of which it was orginally modified is just plain stubid...It has, however provided usefull platform to AEW chopper called ka-31, featured (but recently grounded:confused: :( ) by India navy

Well I also do not think that Ka-29 can be converted to ASW version and I stated so in my post… As for radar I have found some sites that are saying that it has radar… It is probably not the same radar as ASW version but it is radar…

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/ka29-01.htm

[Gollevainen]

well what it says is pretty much worth of nothing. But if one wants to speculate of possiple radar, he must think of normal search and rescue/navigation radar, not anyway near the size of normal ASW choppers radars...

[isthvan]

well what it says is pretty much worth of nothing. But if one wants to speculate of possiple radar, he must think of normal search and rescue/navigation radar, not anyway near the size of normal ASW choppers radars...

Article states that Ka-29 has radar… Since article did not provide explanation of radars type I did not wonted to totally dismiss possible use of Ka-29 in ASW role… I don’t like disregarding someone’s opinion if there is chance that he knows something that I dont know… That’s why I have asked Migleder to give me additional information if he has some…

[Gollevainen]

The guy behind the site is called Venik and is just like us, a military enthusiast. The fact that he didn't provide us anything else to support his claim makes me belive that he have orginally confused the issue.

[MIGleader]

I hate to sound smart but Ka-29 is rather limitedly produced naval-infantry attack helicopter derivate of standard VMF Ka-27 and its downgrated export model Ka-28. But unlike these two, Ka-29 carryes no radar

The ka-28 actually is superior to the ka-27. It has a friend-or-for ID system and a larger fuel capacity. The engines have more power in case one fails, something not present on the ka-27. Thr ka-28 also hase some other sensors not present on the ka-27.

Now Russians are not as broke as they used to be, especially considering current oil, gas and copper prices… Plus they also have some other customers now, Russian Army currently have more money available for new equipment purchases… And maybe they believe that China still needs them as much as they need China… They certainly are not happy whit possible Chinas exports of equipment which they developed or helped to develop and whit potential lost of traditional customers…

Yes, the russians actually can aquire new combat aircraft now after a 10 year halt. But its still only 6 su-34s, not a large amount by any standards. China has been designing weapons off of russian ones since the 50s(or actually, reverse engineering them). Only now, when relations are better, does russia actually ask china to stop. a sing of weakness, i think.

also, i think the ka-29 does have radar, but its for missle targetting. ASW will have to wait.

[tphuang]

looks like ka-29 will be used on those transports to assist amphibious operations.

ka-31 will be put on the carrier and DDGs to provide target information, guide AshMs, detect low flying planes and such.

Be-200 - ASW platform. it's going to replace SH-5 in plan. just a question, what would be the equivalent platform in USN?

As for Russian having more money? That's true, but you need to read their recent purchase. It's a joke. Let's put it this way, one order from the Chinese is bigger than 5 orders from themselves.

[MIGleader]

Yes, that is the be-200. What is strange is that the be-200 is not a military plane at all. It was designed to fight fires, and first by the Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations.

The plane is capable of being configured for the ASW role though, and can has customer selected equipment. this must be the case.
If this model features sea-search radar, it must be the first military model, designed specifically for china.

[Sea Dog]

OK. So is this Be-200 going to be PLAN's primary ASW maritime aircraft? What I really want to know is how it would compare to the "May". I'm assuming that is more of the equivalent. What will this aircraft carry?

One note, even if PLAN has a maritime aircraft, they still need to develop a robust helo ASW capability.

[Kampfwagen]

Do you think it would be possible for the PLA to get a Mi-26? I dont see why they would not be able to get two or three, unless the Mi-26 is not for export.

[bd popeye]

Popeye, how on earth do you get away with posting stuff on u.s equipment in a Chinese weapon thread?
If indianfighter tried to do that, he would be ripped apart by the mods.


Miggy, I was merely answering a question..So if it offends you I will delete it...
Ok??

Miggy..I deleted it. Happy now???

[Sea Dog]

Do you think it would be possible for the PLA to get a Mi-26? I dont see why they would not be able to get two or three, unless the Mi-26 is not for export.

The short answer to this question is yes. But how good would this type be for ASW? Probably not very good. I'm thinking PLAN wants to improve upon a design like Ka-28.

[Kampfwagen]

That does make sense, but it would certantly come in handy for short-range heavy-hauling. Military wise, the Mi-26 is a Clydesdale, not a Mustang. Not to mention the troop carrying capibility. (A 'standard' Mi-17 can carry 20+ soliders, so imagine how many a Mi-26 could carry?) You could probably even carry other helicopters or light attack vehicles. It would come in handy for the highly mobile force the PLA is seeking to become. On the nil side though, would probably be unit cost and vulnurability. Certantly, it's bulky size would make it an easy target (I dont know about infared detection countermeasures, or anti-heat emission systems.)

Also, why dosent the PLA try to buy some Mi-24's? They are certantly capable attack helicopters and most definately a decent multirole helicopter. (At least, from what I hear.)

[sumdud]

China is already researching on the WZ-10, so there is no demand for the Mi-24, which I hear is relatively hard to use and inefficient. Plus, since we are thinking that China will build WZ-10 to look more like the Havoc, wouldn't it make more sense to buy the Mi-28N?

[Kampfwagen]

China is already researching on the WZ-10, so there is no demand for the Mi-24, which I hear is relatively hard to use and inefficient. Plus, since we are thinking that China will build WZ-10 to look more like the Havoc, wouldn't it make more sense to buy the Mi-28N?

Really? That's the first time I have heard of that. Then again, alot of the things I have heard about the Hind were Bare-Bones descriptions and never about performance issues asside from a Wiki that said the Hind's tail lacked armor and a relative lack of upkeep on older helicopters. Also, the first time I have heard of the WZ-10's shift in design. I don't even know if the Mi-28N is even avaliable for export. That, and I have not heard of a navalized version of the Mi-28 either.

I feel it is important that despite the big PLAN in the front there to note I did not know this was PLAN-centric, but for the Chinese Armed Forces in general. Would it be dificult to modify the Mi-28 to a navalized role? I dont imagine it would be.

[isthvan]

Really? That's the first time I have heard of that. Then again, alot of the things I have heard about the Hind were Bare-Bones descriptions and never about performance issues asside from a Wiki that said the Hind's tail lacked armor and a relative lack of upkeep on older helicopters. Also, the first time I have heard of the WZ-10's shift in design. I don't even know if the Mi-28N is even avaliable for export. That, and I have not heard of a navalized version of the Mi-28 either.

I feel it is important that despite the big PLAN in the front there to note I did not know this was PLAN-centric, but for the Chinese Armed Forces in general. Would it be dificult to modify the Mi-28 to a navalized role? I dont imagine it would be.

Would you please define what you mean by navalized? Turn it in to ASW helicopter or just make him LPD/LPH operational? Attack helicopters are not suited for ASW warfare… They lack space for sonar, radar and weapons equipment… But if you mean better anticorrosion protection so it could be stationed permanently on amphibious ships then yes Mi-28 can be navalized.

[Sea Dog]

Both types of helicopters have different requirements as both have different uses. The systems on board are obviously going to be different. I'm not sure it would make much sense for China to navalize an Mi-28 or something of that type. You don't have alot of need for that heavy armor and can be alot more flexible in using something like Ka-28 for ASW purposes. I think PLAN will eventually opt for building something similar to Ka-28 for ASW even if it opts to build something like Mi-28 for PLA armored support. But like sumdud says......wouldn't it make sense just to purchase Mi-28 in the first place? Ka-28 too, especially if it gives PLAN what they need for ASW?

[sumdud]

Navalizing? The Hind was never intended as a naval chopper in the first place.(At least I've never heard.) The Ka-29 did that.

The Hind is a cross between an AH and a transport. So with its armor, it can't transport much, and being so big, it can shoot well and take relatively much, but not very manuverable.

As for WZ-10, all the CGI and pictures we've seen of it looks more like the Havoc than Hind. (While both have stepped canopy, the WZ-10 never required a transport capability, this along w/ pictures making it more similar to the Havoc also.)

If you want a naval-jack of all trades naval chopper, a Ka-29 makes more sense. It is basically a Ka-28 doing what a Hind does.
But if I want a naval AH, I would probably go for a WZ-9 though. It doesn't have armor (As Sea Dog said, no need for it) but can transport (I think, it's pretty much just a Z-9 fitted w/ HJ-8 and TY-90) or attack/assault.

[Sea Dog]

Speaking of Z-9, how is that program going as a whole? Will it be ASW capable? I remember reading in USNI that said WZ-9 could be outfitted with ASW acoustics equipment and torpedoes. But I haven't read anything since.

[MIGleader]

It is ASW capable. It can carry dipping sonar, and drop torpedoes. But thats about it. Plus, theres only a very small number of them, not sure why though.

It seems the z-9c's primary mission is to alow OTH attacks to be mounted with ships such as 167 which do not have the Band Stand radar.

[Kampfwagen]

Generaly speaking by 'Navalized' I meant modifications to make the Mi-28 a Carrier Borne aircraft for carrier-bassed sorties onto land and costal positions. I don't know much about naval air-power, but I do know it is pretty dumb to make an Mi-28 go into the Sub-Warfare role. Maybe also to make it useful against small ships and the like.

The whole thing about the Mi-24 was a bit of a mistake on my part, since I thought that this was a discussion about China's lack of helicopters in the whole of the armed forces, not just specificaly the navy. For that mistake, I am sorry and very embarised. :o

Also, what exactly is OTH and LPD/LPH?

[Gollevainen]

OTH migth mean Over the horizon...thougth maybe Miggy can explain as he used the term...

LPH/LPDs means big amphifious landing ships, either dock landing ships or pure aircraft carriers that house helicopters to support amphibious operations.

[MIGleader]

Also, what exactly is OTH and LPD/LPH?

Ill explain it in the terms i was using. The yj-83 ASHM, used on the type 51b and 52/b, has a maximum range of about 200km. The band stand radar on the 52b is an OTH radar, which has the range to allow the ship to fire the yk-83s are max range. the 51b and 52 do not have band stand. Instead, the ships can use a z-9c. The z-9c is equipped with a KLC-1 radar at X band. the helicopter can detect targets and relay the info to the ship for OTH attacks.

[tphuang]

today, I found a thread with some pictures of ka-28, I'm beginning to think that there are more ka-28 in China than we all originally speculated.

These are the numbers mentionned on sinodefence
East Sea Fleet: 9114, 9124, 9134, 9144, 9154, 9164, 9174, 9184
South Sea Fleet: 9664, 9666, 9454

if you visit this thread, you would notice many more ka-28s
for example, we can clearly identify from the pictures
9664, 9334, 9474, 9224
and possibly
9264

So, we've identified at least 4 new ka-28s with these pictures and probably more

[Sea Dog]

Where's the link? :confused:

So does that mean that China is shifting it's major focus onto that platform as it's primary ASW helo for the future? I still believe they are working on an indigineous solution. Ka-28 is a formidable ASW helo for sure. But I wonder what this means for a potential navalized Z-9 variant for PLAN. Or maybe something else entirely.

[tphuang]

yeah, I had the hardest time trying to get the pictures off that forum. They had this mechanism that prevented you from saving pictures. :nono: :nono:

Anyhow, just check these out. I think these photos are probably taken from the southern fleet since the only previously identified ka-28 9664 is listed as in Southern fleet.
groups of ka-28s
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7787/ka28group1my9.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2350/ka28group2my5.jpg
ka-28 with no number
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8702/ka28nonumberly5.jpg
ka-28 9664
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/1206/ka289664rt6.jpg

[tphuang]

okay, the new ones uncovered
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6233/ka289474uq5.jpg
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9233/ka289264dz3.jpg
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4783/ka289224wi5.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/109/ka289334js8.jpg

[Obi Wan Russell]

Capable as these Helos are they do remind me of an old saying about the differences between various nations design philosophies;
"if it's weird, it's British, if it's ugly, it's French, if it's weird AND ugly it's Russian, and if it was designed with no curves at all it's American!"

[bd popeye]

Capable as these Helos are they do remind me of an old saying about the differences between various nations design philosophies;
"if it's weird, it's British, if it's ugly, it's French, if it's weird AND ugly it's Russian, and if it was designed with no curves at all it's American!"

That's an old one... I have not heard that for at least 20 years.

I'm sure the PLAN side is very happy to see more of those Ka-28's.:china: A very capable Helo. I hope for the PLAN they dispurse them in a manner that will be useful to the PLAN. I have a question...Does anyone know how well the PLAN helo aircrews are trained in SAR missions? Or do they even conduct SAR missions?.....

[adeptitus]

Capable as these Helos are they do remind me of an old saying about the differences between various nations design philosophies;
"if it's weird, it's British, if it's ugly, it's French, if it's weird AND ugly it's Russian, and if it was designed with no curves at all it's American!"

Like this?
http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/bartini/vva/vva_e.htm
:rofl:


But seriously, the historical pattern for Chinese military purchase is to import limited numbers for evaluation, then either license produce it locally, or reverse enginner a copy. The Z-8/Z-9/Z-11 are examples of this pattern.

However, we've not seen the same with Ka-28's. Perhaps it's beacuse the numerical requirement is too small.

[tphuang]

news from the Zhuhai airshow, we knew about ka-31 already, not too suprised about ka-28 either


ZHUHAI. Oct 31 (Interfax-AVN) - Russia's state arms trader
Rosoboronexport has offered to supply China with Ka-28 all-weather anti-
submarine and anti-boat helicopters, and Ka-31 radar helicopters under a
Russian-Chinese intergovernmental agreement.
"Talks on Ka-28 and Ka-31 helicopters began in Beijing today under
a program for Russian-Chinese cooperation," leader of the
Rosoboronexport delegation and head of the export department Alexander
Mikheyev told Interfax-AVN at the Airshow-China 2006 aviation and space
show on Tuesday.
Mikheyev did not specify how many helicopters could be supplied to
China or when. "This is yet to be negotiated," he said.
For details, see the Interfax Military News Agency wire.

[Sczepan]

news from the Zhuhai airshow, we knew about ka-31 already, not too suprised about ka-28 either see also
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20061030/55244500.html
Russia to exhibit modern aircraft at Chinese air show
18:00 | 30/ 10/ 2006

MOSCOW, October 30 (RIA Novosti) - Over 50 Russian defense companies will showcase a variety of modern aircraft and aerospace technologies at an international exhibition in southern China this week, the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation said Monday.....

"The Russian exposition focuses on the export modifications of helicopters - the Mi-28NE Night Hunter, the Ka-50 Hocum and the Ka-50-2 Erdogan attack helicopters, the Mi-17-1B Hip and Mi-171 transport helicopters, the Mi-26 Halo heavy transport helicopter, the Ka-29 Helix B shipborne combat transport helicopter, and the Ka-31 shipborne AEW helicopter," the service said in a statement.

The service also said that Russia will demonstrate a wide range of air defense systems, including the S-300 PMU2 Favorit, designed to intercept theatre ballistic missiles at a range of up to 1,000 km (650 miles), the Tor-M1, the Pechora-2M, the Tunguska-M1 gun/missile system, the Shilka mobile anti-aircraft gun, and the Igla (SA-16 Gimlet) portable air defense system. ...

[tphuang]

so, I just got a few new pictures of Ka-28 that we never counted for before.
They are of course 1174, 9333 and 9444.
I also have pictures for 9114 to 9184
Dongfeng put 9664, 9666, 9454 on sinodefence, I only have picture for 9664 among that.

I also have pictures for 9224, 9264, 9334, 9474
so we should have at least 18 ka-28, although I suspect far more, because 9333 and 9334 seems to indicate more in 933x, 9444, 9454 and 9474 indicates more of 94x4, 9224 and 9264 seem to indicate more 92x4, 1174 indicates more ka-28 starting with 1. I guess we can safely say that they have other 20 ka-28s, maybe even as many as 30.

[tphuang]

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2773/z9cregimentoct23oh6.jpg
This is kind of interesting, an entire regiment of Z-9Cs (I've personally never seen that many of them together) waiting to load torpedoes. There also looks to be naval Z-8s in the back. Also, I think these are the A.244s that helicopters use, not the Yu-7s that the ships use. I think these two have been mixed together for too long. and if you have seen them, there are distinct differences between the two.