F-18 shot down by Iraqi MIG?

[DPRKPTboat]

The Iraqi air force was largely ineffectual during both Gulf wars, although it was flying in the first one. I thought it had scored no air to air kills, until I took a look at this...

http://www.webcom.com/amraam/aaloss.html

According to this, an F-18 was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 near Baghdad:

DATE/TIME D/L TYPE UNIT LOCATION CAUSE
1/17 0200Z Loss F/A-18C VFA-81 29nm SE Baghdad MiG-25PD
Can anyone confirm this? Any news articles or anything?

[The_Zergling]

Well, I've heard of this story several times... as far as I know it was originally reported as a SAM kill, afterwards changed to shot down by MiG-25.

And apparently people believe the pilot is still alive...

http://www.freescottspeicher.org/

[DPRKPTboat]

Well, I've heard of this story several times... as far as I know it was originally reported as a SAM kill, afterwards changed to shot down by MiG-25.

And apparently people believe the pilot is still alive...

http://www.freescottspeicher.org/

I really doubt that. He would have turned up by now. That website was probably made by friends and relatives who couldn't accept that he was dead. That's understandurble, though.
So an SA-6 was fired as well. I wonder if there was any hard evidence to say the MiG brought Speicher down. I don't see why it couldn't. The MIG-25 was one of the most capable Iraqi interceptors, and could outrun the F-18. I would love to see the testimony of the Iraqi pilot who flew that thing, see what he has to say.

[MIGleader]

I seriously dont believe MR. Speicher is still alive. If he was, wouldnt the insurgents already have used him as hostage? If they will use news reporters, why not a USAF pilot, who gives them even more leverage?

[The_Zergling]

That's what I thought too. Except the website apparently is still active, something that I found very odd. You'd think Saddam would have used Speicher as a bargaining chip if they really had him.

[DPRKPTboat]

Maybe he wasn't actually captured after he ejected, or if he did eject. Maybe he was wandering in the desert, evading capture, and died there. But I'm not sure about that theory as he was close to Baghdad when he was shot down. Most likely he died when his plane exploded.

It was a SAM.

Perhaps we should see some evidence of that then. Because at the moment I haven't seen any reliable evidence that the Hornet was shot down by a MiG or a SAM.

[Gollevainen]

Acording to all printed sources of mine, coming from respectfull western publsihers, It was MiG-25 that shot down the Hornet.

As said, those who claiming it was shoot down by SAMs, please provide your source, as the MiG-25 as the shooter is well know and widely recognized...

[adeptitus]

The wiki entry for MiG-25 reads:
The MiG-25's acknowledged combat record by the West is one F/A-18 Hornet during the First Gulf War, when an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down a U.S. Navy F/A-18C on January 17, 1991, 29 nautical miles southeast of Baghdad. In that particular instance, the MiG was able to evade other attacking aircraft with impunity, due to its ability to make a high speed escape.

Wiki entries are not always reliable, but I've read several other articles describing the incident. One article as I recall, blamed the USAF AWACS controller who failed to notify (human error) the F-18 pilot and allowed the MiG-25 to get on its tail, and shot it down with a R-60/AA-6 AAM. Here's the ACIG description:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_211.shtml
Note 6: The team of ACIG.org researchers obtained exclusive materials describing the interception of an USN F/A-18 Hornet aircraft by an IrAF MiG-25PD at exactly the time and in place where the plane flown by Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down, in the early morning of 17 January 1991. Considering the available evidence, we are now convinced that Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 "Foxbat", using a single R-40/AA-6 Acrid missile - despite explanations by other IrAF pilots we interviewed previously, that none of them would know about any Iraqi pilot to have scored an air-to-air kill against Coalition aircraft during this war.

[BrotherofSnake]

It was a SAM.
Speicher was shot by an AA-6 from behind.

I seriously dont believe MR. Speicher is still alive. If he was, wouldnt the insurgents already have used him as hostage? If they will use news reporters, why not a USAF pilot, who gives them even more leverage?
He's from the Navy.

[DPRKPTboat]

Strange, I'm surprised no other Iraqi pilots knew about the incident. Perhaps the MiG pilot was shot down shortly afterwards.
Iraq probably also used the MiG-25 in the no-fly zone infiltrations - it was faster and could get away easily. And it would have also been useful in their "SAMbushes", where they would go close to Coalition aircraft and lure them towards a SAM site or into Iraqi airspace. It would have been suitable as it was faster than any Coalition aircraft.

[SquidOne]

Many agree that it was very strange that the Iraqi’s did not brag about this air to air "kill." In the course of the investigation some theories have surfaced including a suggestion of a possible blue on blue that arose when Navy Pilots were repeatedly unable to get a clear bogey or bandit clarification. Another theory on the “mums the word” position the Iraqi’s may have adopted, was that a Russian was in the cockpit of the Mig that night – there to train the Iraqi’s in their new high value purchases. One fact is clear, Speicher did initiate the ejection sequence. He was proven, through forensic testing of his flight suit, not to have been in the cockpit at impact. His flight suit that was given to the US inspectors by the Iraqi’s who “found” it, had not been exposed to enough heat and also had not been weathered enough to have been in the desert the number of years the Iraqi’s claimed.

As far as it being a SAM or an Air to Air that brought Speicher down, keep in mind that a SAMs job is to destroy and an Air to Air’s job is to render inoperable. The jet belonging to Captain Speicher was found relatively intact on the desert floor. You can draw conclusions from those facts alone.

The website www.freescottspeicher.org was indeed made by friends, but his status was changed by the former Secretary of the Navy, Richard Danzig from Killed in Action/Body Not Recovered to Missing in Action and then later to Missing in Action/Captured. This drastic status change from KIA to MIA then to MIA/Captured has NEVER been done before and I can assure you this was not based on friends and relatives inability to accept his death. This decision was made by our military leaders and government who clearly are privy to more intelligence than his friends are. Some also choose to say that President Bush used Scott as another excuse for war, but the truth is Bill Clinton was President when his status was first changed and it was Clinton who stood on the White House grounds and said, based on what he had seen that Scott could be alive. More recently, the current Secretary of the Navy took a Navy boards recommendation that Scott’s status remain “Missing in Action/Captured” and that efforts to locate him be stepped up. You can find out more about that here : http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/07/08/military/17_54_187_7_05.txt and here:
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,76871,00.html Here again I can assure you there is more to this than friends swaying people. Speicher is still receiving a military paycheck and has been promoted twice. Again, nothing to do with friends who just may not be able to handle the truth.

Yet another question many have is “why hasn’t Scott ever been used for leverage?” The answer could simply be that he has been and the public hasn’t been made aware of it. Also please take some time to acquaint yourself with the Iranian pilot, Hossein Lashgari, who Saddam held for more than 17 years while denying having him the entire time until he shocked the world when he suddenly released him. 17 years! Furthermore, if Scott died in the desert, how did he carve his initials in a Baghdad prison? MSS and MJM were found carved into the wall of the Hakmiyah (AKA “Judgment Center”).

Insurgents never had custody of Scott. Iraqi military and Intelligence had him. Total different group of bad guys… If anyone still has Scott it would be former regime members, not insurgents.

I encourage anyone who does want to learn more about Speicher’s situation to visit www.freescotspeicher.org and the unclassified intelligence report, as well as multimedia and the information pages (there are numerous articles there from the past with volumes of info). It’s great this discussion is taking place. It means that he won’t be forgotten and assures our present military members that if something should happen to them questions will continue to be asked for them as well. One way or the other Scott deserves and has more than earned the right to come home to a heroes welcome. I am sure you all can agree on that!

God Bless!

PS - I am a member of Friends, but I have never had the honor of meeting Scott -- I have only met his friends who do love him a great deal. They are level headed people who do not jump on every bit of information that comes down, only verified facts that have been confirmed through Senators and other Reliable sources. Based on facts, I believe it's more than feasible that Scott can be found. Especially, since we have so many in custody presently. Based on my heart, I feel we owe no less than the benefit of every doubt to this and all our heroes. I and his friends can and do seperate our hearts from facts. We don't claim to know where he is today, but we know there still is no evidence of his death either. Thanks so much for keeping him in your hearts.:cool:

[King_Comm]

There is one version I've seen stated that the MiG-25 flew a "S" shaped path, the pilot made sure the path of the flight near parallel to the radar wave from the American AWACS most of the time, so the phase dopler radar filtered out the plane's signal as ground reflection, and could not obtain a lock. Which allowed the MiG-25 to sneek behind the F-18's and shot one down.

[crazyinsane105]

I think the Mig-25 pilot was never shot down. As a matter of fact, I think he escaped. I wonder what ever happened to him. :confused:

[DPRKPTboat]

Maybe he was shot down later, or killed in an air raid, in either Gulf War. Whatevr happened to him, he hasn't surfaced yet. And I'm surprised theres no mention of the incident in Iraqi records of the time (at least I haven't seen any mention). It would make good propaganda.

[SquidOne]

Isn't that above comment about the radar called a beaming maneuver? If not can anyone explain beaming? Thanks!


Many people say that now it doesn't matter who shot down Scott. Most agree he just needs to be found as do I.... We do know deep down it matters to many people though. Someone has to know something. If the MIG pilot survived why wouldn't they (Iraqi's/MIG Pilot) brag about it? Maybe it was blue on blue?? Maybe if it was blue on blue, the person who shot Scott down didn't even realize he did...Or maybe they know and won't admit it. I am not a pilot so I am only theorizing here and maybe one of you knows the answer...If someone is missing an air to air missile wouldn't they have to account for it back on deck? Couldn't it possibly be someone who thinks they "shot down a MIG" the first night of the gulf war. Couldn't they have in reality hit Scott by mistake? Blue on Blue's were expected and in the tight confines that night pilots could be forgiven for that. What can't be forgiven is if they thought they may have and kept quiet. This might have cost Scott all the suffering he went through. You see, because the higher ups thought it was a SAM and SAM's destroy, they assumed he couldn't be alive. If someone admitted they possibly hit him with an air to air that would have dramatically increased Scott's chances thus lighting a fire under someone's behind to look for him WHICH NO ONE DID AT ALL until years later.


One quote of interest here is the one in which a Russian was asked if he thought the outcome of the air war would have been different had Russians been in the cockpits and here is that quote:

" LTC Vladimir Vysotsky was asked in Komsomolskaya Pravda on August 7, 1991, whether the outcome of the Gulf War had been the same had the Russian pilots flown the Iraqi aircraft. The answer was hardly, since Russian pilots had trained the Iraqi pilots. When the journalist pointed out that Russian pilots were surely not that bad, the answer was: "Every pilot with a rational head on his shoulders knows that in case of war the role reserved for him is that of cannon fodder. He also knows that the situation worries very few people in the highest command echelons." When he was asked whether he was worried about getting into trouble because of such statements, he pointed out fatalistically that his worries are quite different; he knew what would happen to his attack aircraft in the first days of war (9)."

Here is the link to where that quote came from:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/ruaf-1.htm


I know hindsight is 20/20 and all of that ... and people say the past doesn't matter and yada yada, but what if it still matters to someone/s who really don't want Scott home? God I hope not. But I have always had one particular saying stuck in my head "Truth is stranger than fiction." I am starting to believe that is true in some cases.

[SteelBird]

Maybe he was shot down later, or killed in an air raid, in either Gulf War. Whatevr happened to him, he hasn't surfaced yet. And I'm surprised theres no mention of the incident in Iraqi records of the time (at least I haven't seen any mention). It would make good propaganda.

What I have heard was the max speed of MiG-25 is Mach 3+, but pilots are warned not to exceed Mach 2.8, otherwise the engine will break into pieces. After he shot down the F/A-18, he tried to escape, Wiki said some F-15s flew after him and fired some AAMs on him, may he had exceeded the warning speed while he tried to escape and crashed?

[DPRKPTboat]

Interesting theory. I knew the Russians had many problems with quality control, especially in Aircraft engines. Apparently if you accerelate in a MiG-21 to quickly the engine burns out. Given that most of the Iraqi jets were poorly maintained anyway (The Gulf war was only a few years after the Iran-Iraq war, where Iraq lost many airframes, pilots and spare parts), its likely that techinical problems could have caused the MiG to crash - the Iraqi pilots were more in danger from that than being shot down, especially after the embargoes.

[SteelBird]

Interesting theory. I knew the Russians had many problems with quality control, especially in Aircraft engines. Apparently if you accerelate in a MiG-21 to quickly the engine burns out. Given that most of the Iraqi jets were poorly maintained anyway (The Gulf war was only a few years after the Iran-Iraq war, where Iraq lost many airframes, pilots and spare parts), its likely that techinical problems could have caused the MiG to crash - the Iraqi pilots were more in danger from that than being shot down, especially after the embargoes.

One more interesting thing is that Russian doesnt produce any fast aircraft after MiG-25. USA doesn't produce any fast aircraft after SR-71's retire. Why? High speed/altitude are no longer an advantage of an aircraft? or it's too difficult to produce/maintance?

[The_Zergling]

I'd say both. Especially with the increase of lethality in anti-aircraft missiles...