Do you know the great militarist"Sun ZI"

[scott]

Do you know the great militarist "sun zi",he written the "sun zi strategics",maybe it is the first book about military affairs.Have you read the book.if you read it,please talk about it,i want to hear your opinion on it.

[Ender Wiggin]

Do you mean Sun Tzu? the writter of the Art of War (at least theotetically)? I have the book somewhere, as well as clauswitz vom krieg.

[scott]

Do you mean Sun Tzu? the writter of the Art of War (at least theotetically)? I have the book somewhere, as well as clauswitz vom krieg.
yes ,thank.

[jwangyue]

This book is still taught in Westpoint and many other fine military acedmies in the world.

[Gollevainen]

Moved to military history forum

[Red Guard]

this book is more aobut politic than military.

[PiSigma]

why is everyone only have one-liners??? Scott, next time you start a topic please start it off by giving your own opinion, so people can comment. thanks

[woodli2006]

I know Sun ZI, because I'm Chinese. He is very famous in China.But it's a pity that I haven't read the book "Sun ZI Bing Fa(Sun ZI strategics)".It's difficult to read archaic chinese books.They are hard to understood for me.Maybe I can read it later.:D

[Obcession]

Wasn't the Art of War required for German officers to read in WWII (I or II, I forgot)?

Yea, I know it. In pinyin Sun Tzu is spelled Sun Zi. I've read his Art of War a number of times, each time going deeper into the hidden messages (between the lines). Woodli, how old are you? I'm still in high school and I can read the original WenYanWen text no problem.

Anyway, I think it's an awesome book, I own a copy along with "Thirty Six Strategies". If anyone of you are interested in reading it, just use google. I must say, the English version loses a lot of its original "between-the-lines" meanings.

The Art of War covers the overall strategy of a nation, to campaigns, to large battles. It is because of this aspect that the book is still very relavent today, instead of meadling with small matters, such as "you should put your troops into a formation of squares instead of circles", persay. It can be viewed as an overall planning guide to a general.

[Choy]

I like the Art of War very much. It's not a politics book, I would say it's more to strategy. Of course, one problem in reading ancient Chinese books is there are lots of hidden meanings left for you to think about yourself. Some of my friends alwasy told me "Quite often, the book talks a lot of thing which are common sense and not suitable for this century" And I just replied "really" with a smile. In my heart, those were not common sense, it's just they didn't get the meanings behind and they don't know how to apply what they read.

The Art of War might have only 2000+ words, but if someone really want to explain in detail, I am afraid 200,000 words wouldn't be enough.

When I read about Chinese history, especially those about wars, I always found how the generals or politicians applied what were mentioned in the art of war. And alwasy remember 1 thing, the easier a war is won, the harder to find out the strategies applied.

[Liang Jieming]

Do you know the great militarist "sun zi",he written the "sun zi strategics",maybe it is the first book about military affairs.Have you read the book.if you read it,please talk about it,i want to hear your opinion on it.
Do I know him? No, not personally though I do know of him and his works. ;)

This is the latest "best guess" on who Sunzi was though I doubt anyone can definitively pin this info down as fact.

"No one is certain as to who Sunzi was, but it is believed that he was a man by the name of Sun Wu alias Changqing, born in 535 B.C., to a family of nobles. Living in the mid 6th century B.C., Sunzi would have been a contemporary of Kongzi or Confucius. Sun Ping, Sun Wu's father was one of the King of Qi's top officials, who's own father, Tian Shu was awarded a fief and accorded the surname "Sun" by the King for his meritorious service during an expedition to the State of Ju (present-day Juxian County).

The State of Qi during Sunzi's teenage years was a state in decline, rife with internal power struggles. Disgusted with the problems of his state, he left home to further his ambitions, and in 517 B.C. at 18 years of age, Sun Wu went to the State of Wu. According to the ShiJi in the Biography of Wu Zixu, General Wu Zixu recommended Sunzi and his 13-chapter book to He Lu, the sovereign of the kingdom of Wu. Recognising his military genius, He Lu appointed Sunzi a general of Wu where he served with distinction and set his name onto the path of immortality."

Jieming

[radiowave21]

Choy, i got to say that u are closed to the hidden message in "SunZi Strategics"， at least u find the way.

i read the book many times, and the "36 Strategies" too, i am always thinking i got some sence behind but it's hard to express by my poor English, i think...

[Hannibal]

I have only read a little Sun Zi Strategics. I like this sentence: Rapidness like the wind, alignment like the woods, aggression like the fire, fixedness like the mountain, unexpectable like the cloudiness, action like the thunder;)

[ya-ta-ta]

I know the great militarist "sun bing(孙膑)"besides the great militarist"SUN ZI孙子（孙武）"．

[Finn McCool]

Here's a quote from Finn worthy of Sun Zi. "A good attack should flow like water."

[youngman]

Here is some of the original version.Check it out if you can.:china:
始计第一

孙子曰：
兵者，国之大事，死生之地，存亡之道，不可不察也。
故经之以五事，校之以计，而索其情：一曰道，二曰天，三曰地，四曰将，五
曰法。道者，令民于上同意，可与之死，可与之生，而不危也；天者，阴阳、寒暑
、时制也；地者，远近、险易、广狭、死生也；将者，智、信、仁、勇、严也；法
者，曲制、官道、主用也。凡此五者，将莫不闻，知之者胜，不知之者不胜。故校
之以计，而索其情，曰：主孰有道？将孰有能？天地孰得？法令孰行？兵众孰强？
士卒孰练？赏罚孰明？吾以此知胜负矣。将听吾计，用之必胜，留之；将不听吾计
，用之必败，去之。
计利以听，乃为之势，以佐其外。势者，因利而制权也。兵者，诡道也。故能
而示之不能，用而示之不用，近而示之远，远而示之近。利而诱之，乱而取之，实
而备之，强而避之，怒而挠之，卑而骄之，佚而劳之，亲而离之，攻其无备，出其
不意。此兵家之胜，不可先传也。
夫未战而庙算胜者，得算多也；未战而庙算不胜者，得算少也。多算胜少算，
而况于无算乎！吾以此观之，胜负见矣。

[oringo]

First of all, "Sun Zi", or "Sun Tsu", or "Sun Wu", refer to the same military strategist lived during the "Spring and Autumn" period (~400B.C.). There is actually not much of information about him in the history. The only historic record of him was the story of him training an army of concubines for the King of Zhao. This was recorded in the book of "Spring and Autumn" (春秋).

The book "the Art of War" is widely perceived as being written by Sun Tsu. The most authoritive version of the book was a commetary by Caocao of the Three Kingdom (三国) period, another great military strategist. There exists another version that was recently (1980s) discovered from a Han tomb. This version predates the Caocao version and contains additional scrolls, believed to have been written by Sun Bin, a decendent of Sun Tsu. There is also some historians that believe the AoW was was collective effort of Sun Tsu and his students/descendents, just like Confucist's book Lun Yu (论语).

I have a lot of respect for the book. Like many of you have said, it is a very condensed book of political and military wisdom. But what I respect the most is that Sun does not believe in war as the solution to all. He prefers diplomatic and political strategies to get an upper hand, to win a war without having a battle. Only go to war when it is the last resort.

When he does go to war, I think the following quote is the most quintisential idea from his book: "知己知彼，百战不怠" (Know thy self and thy emenies, and you will not lose a hundred battles.)

This is the central idea of his military doctrine. Everything is else pretty derivative or the logical consequence of this idea.

Tell me what you think.

[erlongshan]

The main idea of his trategics is "to avoid the strong of your enemy and attack his weak part"(避实击虚) and "to face your enemy with your strong and to beat it with singularity "(以正合，以奇胜)。
I donnot know whether I express it correctly when I translate it into English,
but the two that I had say are the soal of the great book.
Mao Zedong was one of millitarist who had master it.:china:

[oringo]

The main idea of his trategics is "to avoid the strong of your enemy and attack his weak part"(避实击虚) and "to face your enemy with your strong and to beat it with singularity "(以正合，以奇胜)。
I donnot know whether I express it correctly when I translate it into English,
but the two that I had say are the soal of the great book.
Mao Zedong was one of millitarist who had master it.:china:
Though your translation is correct, I don't think they are the central ideas of AoW. They might be your favorite idea from the book, but take the example of the first quote, one must have the knowledge of where the enemy's weakness is, and where one's own strength is first. Without these knowledge, you might as well just use your infantry to attack the enemy's tanks. Battlefield and strategic intel collection, and the knowledge of your own strengths and weaknesses is the first step towards any form of tactically offense or defense. Sun is the first person in the history to have put this idea in written words.

[erlongshan]

Though your translation is correct, I don't think they are the central ideas of AoW. They might be your favorite idea from the book, but take the example of the first quote, one must have the knowledge of where the enemy's weakness is, and where one's own strength is first. Without these knowledge, you might as well just use your infantry to attack the enemy's tanks. Battlefield and strategic intel collection, and the knowledge of your own strengths and weaknesses is the first step towards any form of tactically offense or defense. Sun is the first person in the history to have put this idea in written words.
To know situation of both sides is very impotant.But SuZi hadnot mended it in many chapters but only in the end of the third chapter.It is so basal a thing that it cannot be skilful.When you open the book you can see that it are telling you how to build you army strong and how to win a war.you should know youself and your enemy weakness and strength before a battle but what make you win easily at last is to attack your enemy's weakness with your strength and change your weakness into strength.

[oringo]

To know situation of both sides is very impotant.But SuZi hadnot mended it in many chapters but only in the end of the third chapter.It is so basal a thing that it cannot be skilful.
I agree, but sadly this simple truth is too often overlooked. The original quote (知己知彼，百战不怠) was not just about knowing the military weakness and strength. It also extends to strategic and tactical intel collecting. The quote itself was a simple but very broad idea. Many chapters are indeed derived from this simple idea. Look at Chapter 13. It's all about how to use spies.

[kunmingren]

i think most relevent part of 'Art of War' today is his politic thoughts and philosophy. There are also parts in the book where he actually talked about how to fight a battle like how to deploy archers or what formation spearmen should line up, i think that would be interesting reading only for historians. Its really a good book to read over some time and apply it to your personal life.

As for its military value in today's warfare, i think its more useful to politicians than to generals. Warfare has changed since his time, only thing that hasnt changed is politics.

Of course its a good reading for anyone who likes to be more sophisticated, but good luck on the archaic chinese.